16 replies to this topic

[name_here]

This first came up in the Spren and Quantum Mechanics thread.

To recap, in one of the interludes a pair of Ardents discover that Spren are affected by what is written about them. The relevant discoveries are as follows:

1. Spren vary in a number of attributes under normal conditions, the one in question being size

2. If a measurement is taken and written down, the Spren becomes locked in that size

3. If the measurement is then erased, the Spren begins fluctuating again

4. Taking or saying measurements has no effect, they must be written down. However, they don't have to be written down by the person who takes them

5. They have to be actual measurements, not random numbers

6. This definitely works in chalk on slate, other materials were not tested but are presumed to be the same.

The following things are known to be unknown. They are of questionable direct relevance, and I'm mostly listing them so the main conversation in this thread won't be bogged down. If someone wants to theorise about them, please establish a dedicated thread.

1. Effect of taking multiple measurements and writing them all down from memory (not tested)
2. Effect of precision of the measurement (all were taken with the same tool and written down at the highest reliable precision)
3. Effect of inaccurate measurements, i.e. when the measurement is actually taken but the measurer reads it incorrectly. (not tested, though it might just work like an imaginary measurement)
4. Effect of outdated measurements (there was some time delay, but not much)
5. Whether this extends to other traits (according to the viewpoint character, this appears to be the case for Spren luminosity, but it wasn't tested)
6. The extent to which existing Spren are already constrainted by previous writings (inherently untestible, as of course it is impossible to be certain all written material concerning them has been found)

Anyways, enough recap. On to... recaping Vorin religious practices.

So, one of the central rites of Vorinism is burning prayers. As demonstrated with the huge Shash glyph, there appears to be no constraint on the form beyond that they must be written and lit on fire. The writing system generally used is glyphs, which is also the only system non-Ardent men are allowed to use. This is apparently considered the only way to actually communicate with the Almighty, which is mentioned to be kind of strange since he's supposedly all-knowing. Sometimes, unburned prayers are worn and ascribed supernatural signifigence, but this is apparently regarded as foolish supersition by the Ardentia.

So, apparently the Almighty is incapable of recieving prayers until they are burned. And not merely in the sense that burning prayers is the proper way of doing things, as there is never any particular suggestion that alternate methods are acceptable if the Almighty has in his wisdom placed you in a situation where there is no fire. This, then, would imply that he actually cannot see the prayers before they are burned. And we know that the Almighty is actually the Shard Honor.

The last bit of recap is the information on Shards from Hero of Ages. Ruin and Preservation were both functionally omniescient, with one exception. They were unable to see metal very clearly, instead seeing a blinding glow surrounding it. This was sufficent to prevent Ruin from being able to read the Lord Ruler's inscriptions.

Finally on to the theory. Both of the Scadrial Shards were blinded by the focus of their magic system. It seems unlikely that this is a coincidence. It's unclear how much about them can be generalised to all Shards, since they were paired opposites and so probably had more in common with each other than with the other Shards. However, it isn't too much of a stretch to assume that other Shards also have difficulty percieving the focus of their magic system.

So if Honor cannot read unburned prayers, that would imply that they contain the focus of his magic system. It could be specifically ink, except that writing in chalk had noticable effects on Spren. Taken together, those two facts suggest that writing is a magical focus. Of course, the Radiants don't appear to actually depend on writing to use their powers, but we've only seen a small portion of the powers of four orders. So there's easily enough Surges left for at least one of them to be entirely dependent on writing. What it does is an open question, though given Vorin gender roles I wouldn't be too terribly suprised if it were capable of biological alteration or saw heavy use in manufacturing. However, it's been thousands of years since anyone actually used it, and there's really no telling what parts of Alethi culture are actually sourced off the Radiants and what just sprung up over time.

The big open question is what precisely constitutes writing as far as this is concerned. I suspect that burning prayers happens because the ink and paper burn at different rates, producing a glyph-shaped outline. The glyphs used in prayers are relatively simplistic, so the outline doesn't need to be too precise. The Alethi writing system is probably also impossible to percieve, since it's what affected the Spren. It's entirely possible that the Surge related to writing runs on rules similar to Awakening Commands, where the langauge doesn't matter so long as you know what you're writing.

I doubt the prayers are actually examples of it in use, although I guess it's possible they'd have a specific magical
effect if used by a member of the right order and backed by Stormlight. Personally, I figure they were always just prayers; whenever someone set some glyphs on fire Honor would read it and respond in whatever way seemed suitable under the circumstances. Now that Honor has lost its Shardbearer and is possibly Splintered as well, they're just paper.

[Aethling]

The burning idea is really nothing new to the scheme of religions. People here have been doing it for millenia. Your interpretation is a good one, but I feel we have analog in modern and past practices. Many of those that burn/ed prayers and offerings do/did it as a way to get closer to their god/gods in heaven. Almost everytime I have burned something, the smoke rises. After thousands of years, tradition that had no basis in the origin of the religion tends to become embedded as a "necessary" part of the church practice.

[name_here]

I'd have thought that if it weren't for the Spren experiment. In isolation it's not that noteworthy, but in light of demonstrated interaction between writing and Spren it seems noteworthy.

[ReaderAt2046]

The only problem is that the very nature of a focus dictates that it must be involved in every use of the magic system. So if writing is the focus, all forms of Surgebinding would involve writing.

And i think the significance of burning the prayer lies in the sacrifice or destruction of it. Kind of like how you have to kill something to get rid of your sins, you had to destroy the prayer to send it to Honor.

[Aaradel]

The focus of Honor is Binding, wrighting is a way of binding words and concepts into a physical form. It's not the only way of binding found in WoK, but it works.

[valkynphyre]

I think we're forgetting something. The Honorblades in the prelude had glowing glyphs. The Knights Radiant's Armor had glowing Glyphs that faded. Shardblades now have no glyphs on them. Perhaps it's not writing in general, but specific glyphs. Perhaps the Glyphs become a focus for the powers of the Radiants and Heralds, like Aons.

[Aethling]

The current blades may actually develop glowing glyphs when held be the corret person. No evidence yet to prove or disprove that though. Fantasy is rife with items developing different powers when held by the corret person.

[name_here]

Re: cultural importance of burning, while you'd probably get an answer like that from an Ardent if you pressed, I don't think it's quite an adequate explanation. Numerous religions do place a great deal of import on burnt offerings, but their mythology also includes people who successfully obtained divine aid by promising to make a sacrifice later. The practice of wearing unburnt prayers would be an example of that, except that it appears to not be accepted by the priesthood. So I suspect it's an after the fact justification after the original reason was lost.

There's a couple of possibilities regarding the focuses. First, it could be that the focus is simply words, like how the shared focus of the systems of Sel was symbols, and in one case this manifests as writing. Second, it is also possible Cultivation has systems based on writing and Vorinism merged the attributes of the two Shards. While this wouldn't fit with how it worked on Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation had that duality going on, and the powers being all word-based does fit with Sel's systems. It's also possible written words are similar to spoken Commands, which could be omitted by higher Heightenings but were essentially mandatory.

Another somewhat unlikely option is that Radiant powers come from some sort of master document that holds a spell in Dawnchant to grant the power to form bonds with Spren to anyone who meets certain requirements.

It's quite possible the Shardplate glyphs have magical importance, but they aren't strictly neccesary for Radiant power use and so wouldn't fill the focus requirement.

Edited by name_here, 12 June 2012 - 05:21 AM.

[ReaderAt2046]

Something else we're forgetting: burning a prayer doesn't create writing, it uncreates it. So the effect would be related to releasing the spren, not binding it.

[Scattered]

I think another thing to consider is that Brandon has stated that magic on Roshar is very closely related to a person's actions. So maybe it's enough to get your deity to pay attention to your prayers if you just take the action of worshipping him (in this case, burning prayers). That could be a reason why just thinking them wouldn't work, although not necessarily why the action of writing them wouldn't work. Maybe that's just a dogma thing that developed over time.

[name_here]

Good point about how the burning might be related to releasing Spren. While my theory doesn't have a direct connection between the two, that is an alternate possibility for where the practice came from. Maybe originally the prayers were actually used to temporarily lock a Spren into a state so they could help the writer, and were ceremonially burned once the task was completed. That would also explain why it is apparently common practice to wear a prayer for a happy marriage while engaged and burn it at the wedding, even though most lighteyes don't seem to believe they mean anything until burned. If they were originally related to controlling Spren, then at one point it might have been common practice to bind some sort of Spren (Gloryspren? Creationspren? Maybe there are actual Marrigespren?) for the duration of the engagement and burn the paper during the ceremony. Then at some point slips of paper not actually describing Spren obtained ceremonial purpose, and the original use was entirely forgotten and prayers substituted, but with lingering cultural effects like the belief in Glyphwards.

I imagine they used to be more elaborate, but because virtually everyone in positions of power is functionally illiterate and can only read relatively simple glyphs, it became common practice to write them in a form Lighteyed men could actually read. Possibly after an incident involving an inaccurate transcription in the manner of the Wicked Bible.

[Shivertongue]

Burning offering is a factor of many real-world and fictional religions. The presumption that the Almighty can only see burnt prayers is ludicrous, and more than likely based in a cultural belief that burning it was the only way for the message to make it to the Almighty. The reason real-world religions did it are many, but often come back to a result of the burning - that being, smoke. The smoke rises into the sky, up to the gods, because the gods are not going to come down to earth to get it themselves.

The fact that Ruin and Preservation could not see metal clearly does not indicate anything about any other Shard. Assuming this is the case would be too simple, for one thing, and quite boring, for another. By this logic, Endowment cannot see Breath or color or commands (whichever is the focus for Awakening), each of which strikes me as dumb. For another thing, I don't think Brandon would use the same idea twice like that - again, too simple.

[ReaderAt2046]

Maybe originally the prayers were actually used to temporarily lock a Spren into a state so they could help the writer, and were ceremonially burned once the task was completed. That would also explain why it is apparently common practice to wear a prayer for a happy marriage while engaged and burn it at the wedding, even though most lighteyes don't seem to believe they mean anything until burned. If they were originally related to controlling Spren, then at one point it might have been common practice to bind some sort of Spren (Gloryspren? Creationspren? Maybe there are actual Marrigespren?) for the duration of the engagement and burn the paper during the ceremony.

Maybe lovespren? or passionspren (which we know exist)?

On Shiver's point, the significance of a burnt offering lies not in the smoke but in the destruction, in giving up something to God and so losing it yourself.

[Shivertongue]

Maybe lovespren? or passionspren (which we know exist)?

On Shiver's point, the significance of a burnt offering lies not in the smoke but in the destruction, in giving up something to God and so losing it yourself.

It's both. In some religions, the smell of the burning flesh of an animal sacrifice was said to be pleasing to the divine, and the smoke carried the scent to the heavens. At the same time, it literally is a sacrifice - giving up something to the gods and losing it yourself, as you said. A burnt offering was important for both reasons, showing devotion through giving something up, and by giving a gift to a deity.

So the smoke and the destruction are equally valid in terms of significance.

[name_here]

Again, the only reason I think there is some long-lost actual Shard-related reason why prayers are invariably written and burned is that writing has been confirmed to interact with Spren. I am perfectly well aware of the significance of burnt offerings in a very large number of religions; one does not take a Latin course on the Aeneid without knowing that. There's a number of differences between how Vorinism does it and how real-world religions do it that would not be terribly significant if it weren't for the interlude with the Spren experiment.

Firstly, it seems like only prayers are burned. Most religions primarily burned animal sacrifices. Theologically, this was either because large herd animals were especially significant and symbolized power and/or manhood, thus making them ideal displays of devotion, or because the gods liked eating beef. More practically, not all of the animal was incinerated; generally large portions of the meat were cooked and eaten.

Secondly, burnt offerings were more common in polytheistic religions (although at least early Judaism had them) because polytheistic deities were generally ascribed only finite power. So, if the belief was that burning the sacrifice allowed it to rise to the gods in the form of smoke, polytheistic deities would actually require people to sacrifice to them in order to get whatever, while omnipotent monotheistic deities didn't. Insofar as sacrifices exist in monotheistic religions, they seem to be much more about the devotion shown by the sacrifice.

Thirdly, at least Greek and Roman mythology is positively filled with instances in which people promise to make an offering if they get to safety/hit their target, and a god hears them and grants their plea.

In Vorinism, prayers aren't particularly expensive, not nearly on the order of a young bull or ram, and I don't recall any other forms of burnt offerings. It's also monotheistic and has an omnipotent deity. And it appears to be enshrined in their theology that burning prayers is not simply desirable but necessary; not just a way of showing appropriate reverence but actually mandatory in order for the prayer to be received. In a polytheistic religion with limits to divine power that wouldn't be out of place, but it's distinctly odd in a monotheistic religion.

It's quite possible the original reason was entirely different, but the oddities and the behaviour of the Spren makes me think there must have been a specific motivation at one point. The structure of Vorinist theology simply makes it highly unlikely it sprang up without an external motivation.

[Vikter]

For an example of what you are saying here, when Navani inscribed her large Thath (sp? On my phone can't look things up) she is temporarily binding a "justicespren" to that area. Burning the prayer then releases said spren and hopefully having some effect on the area? This is to help me get my head on your end of the theory here.

That does seems to make sense. I personally feel like a good measure of justice was done while Dalinar was standing in the burned Glyph area. While you could say that Dalinar acted completly on his own accord there is also nothing to suggest that it was not a Justicespren perhaps nudging either him or Sadeas to be more just. Also if there are Honorspren, then it follows logically that Justicespren exist too. In fact they may even be tide to one of the Radiants, as Honorspren are to Windrunners.

[ReaderAt2046]

For an example of what you are saying here, when Navani inscribed her large Thath (sp? On my phone can't look things up) she is temporarily binding a "justicespren" to that area. Burning the prayer then releases said spren and hopefully having some effect on the area? This is to help me get my head on your end of the theory here.

That does seems to make sense. I personally feel like a good measure of justice was done while Dalinar was standing in the burned Glyph area. While you could say that Dalinar acted completly on his own accord there is also nothing to suggest that it was not a Justicespren perhaps nudging either him or Sadeas to be more just. Also if there are Honorspren, then it follows logically that Justicespren exist too. In fact they may even be tide to one of the Radiants, as Honorspren are to Windrunners.

Or Justicespren are a type of Honourspren (my theory).