The War Against Odium

[Windrunner]

Alright, I've mentioned bits and pieces of this around, but I figured that I should just post it all in one place, so I can get my thoughts together on this subject, and see what everyone else thinks. For the purpose of this theory, I'm just going to assume the Hoid wrote the Letter. I think this fairly well accepted so I hope this won't bug anyone.

The main idea of this post is that fighting against Odium is Hoid's primary goal. He hates Rayse for unknown reasons, and wants to defeat him. So I see Hoid as trying to protect humanity from Odium, while simultaneously trying to kill Odium. I also see the conflict with Odium as being the major backdrop to everything that's going on cosmere wise. I believe that Hoid's appearances in the cosmere books are directly related to him trying to counter, or work against Odium, while still helping people. I also wonder if perhaps Odium hasn’t actually created any creatures, and has just corrupted the creations of other Shards to form his Voidbringers. Perhaps they were once Cultivation’s. I'll now try to summarize what evidence I have for how the war has affected the Shardworlds, bearing in mind that this is Odium's goal:

QUESTION

So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

QUESTION

So by his nature, he can't combine?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

Source

Sel

The War

The largest piece of evidence we have from the war here is of course the Splintered remains of Devotion and Dominion. Odium came here to kill them and ensure that they could not be taken up again. I also believe that he killed the original Elantrians, and possibly the Dakhor monks as well. The whole former race that occupied Arelon, and Elantris were gone when the Arelish arrived, I think Odium probably brought some Voidbringers with him and just slaughtered them all. That's probably also the reason that there aren't any myths of Voidbringers on Sel, because the people they fought were obliterated, so there wasn't anyone else left to tell tales.

Hoid

We all know that Hoid was posing as a simple beggar in Arelon. The question is, why did Hoid show up? He's centuries too late to save Aona and Skai. However, I'm sure Hoid thinks the more Shards to oppose Odium, the easier job they will have, and I imagine Hoid probably also emphasizes with the Elantrians. We know that Devotion and Dominion are Splintered, the question is, how permanent is Splintering? I personally am of the opinion that it isn't permanent, because Shards are eternal, the problem is to somehow make them re-coalesce. It might even be happening on its own already, there are no new Seons, and fewer old ones, and apparently the Elantrians didn't make them. So hopefully somewhere Seons are converging and Devotion is starting to reform. So obviously Hoid wants new allies in his fight. I now know that anyone can take up a Shard. It might be easier for an Eantrian to do so but that's just speculative. Prehaps Hoid has had one of his precognitive visions and knows an Elantrian is destined to take up the power, maybe even Raoden. He could aso simpy be looking for allies, which makes a little less sense, because Galladon is obviosuly not Hoid's friend right now.

Scadrial

The War

No evidence here of Odium's direct interference with events on Scadrial, he's probably left it alone, with one Shard as close to mindless as possible, and the other imprisoned. There was no one there to challenge his power. Only recently has this situation changed, so the people of Scadrial would be wise to keep an eye out for Odium.

Hoid

Again Hoid falls into an unobtrusive role, this time as an informant, but he also spends time as the leader of the Terris people. I personally think he's there to stop Ruin from destroy Scadrial, which seems pretty obvious. An evil Shard breaking free, killing all life on Scadrial, then going on a rampage throughout the cosmere seems pretty bad to me. Also Ruin could eventually form a temporary alliance with Odium, I'm sure Ruin would be amicable to destroying other Shards. Hoid probably was trying to exacerbate Great House relations to start a war in TFE. In WoA Hoid was trying to find the Well so he could get ahold of a bead of Lerasium for mysterious purposes. In HoA he was probably truing to give Vin crucial information, but something spooked her. Hoid goes there, probably for several reasons, but another for sure is to set up Sazed as someone holding two Shards, probably the only person in the cosmere that could beat Odium in a fair fight. This is obviously a great thing for Hoid, and his fight, moving from two Shards that were useless, to two that could intervene if Odium becomes more aggressive.

Nalthis

The War

This is where I start getting pretty far into speculation. If you’ve read my theory Endowment Recently Arrived on Nalthis, then you know where I stand. I think Nalthis was not Endowment’s original world, and that s/he fled from his/her original Shardworld because Odium attacked. Then s/he went to Nalthis, a Shardless world, and his/her presence gradually changed the sDNA of the people who lived there, so they had Breath and were able to Awaken.

Hoid

I honestly am not sure about why Hoid was here. Perhaps he was checking up on Endowment, making sure s/he was okay, or trying to win his/her support against Odium. He was also looking out for the people though, trying to give Siri hints in his stories so she could avert a Second Manywar.

Roshar

The War

Here we go now, with the War finally coming into center stage. The main thing to think about is the Oathpact. This is how I see it. Honor has had enough. He’s felt Odium Splintering Shards, chasing away Endowment, and even destroyed Honor’s own Shardworld, the Tranquiline Halls. Honor, following in line with his intent, challenges Odium to a duel. For some reason Odium accepts, and becomes bound by the rules of the Oathpact. Why he accepts is mysterious. Maybe, as I suggested in another thread, Shards have the ability to affect each other with their intents, so Odium has no choice in the matter. Maybe Odium wants a fair fight, or respects Tanavast for some reason. Maybe it’s tied up in rules about the Shards that we don’t understand yet.

Anyway, Honor and Odium need a neutral arena for their fight. They choose Roshar, and Cultivation possibly as a sort of moderator. She creates an Earthlike area for Honor’s people to arrive in Shinovar, a sort of staging area while they grow accustomed to this new world.

The rules are drawn up. Every x amount of years or so, Odium will have to come against Honor. He will have an opportunity to destroy Roshar and all its inhabitants. If Odium wins he will be able to attack Honor directly. It is unknown if it is possible for Honor to win, the Heralds don’t think so anyway, although there still might be. They get opposite forces, humanity gets Heralds and the Knights Radiant. Odium gets the Unmade and the Orders of Voidbinders. It seems Honor sacrifices some of his powers to create Dawnshards and Honorblades, weakening himself further, and putting his trust in humanity, and Odium possibly makes opposites to those as well. The Heralds were required to submit themselves to Odium’s torture at the end of every Desolation. They would use Shadesmar or some other means to go to his Shardworld, Damnation.

Once the Heralds broke this agreement, it no longer mattered whether the Voidbringers defeated humanity. Odium had beaten Honor, and was now able to directly attack him, killing Tanavast. So what now? Why is Odium still attacking Roshar? He left Sel alone after the death of Aona and Skai. My belief, is that he is afraid of Honor being taken back again. Either Honor was never Splintered, (unlikely from what we’ve seen of spren and the Shards on Sel.) or it’s reforming. Potentially Honor was dead before even Aona and Skai, perhaps he was protected the other Shards from Odium with the Oathpact. So Odium’s greatest enemy is returning, and he can’t let him rise again. The easiest solution? Kill all of Honor’s people and destroy Roshar in the process. He can attack with impunity now, and even perhaps intervene directly himself.

Hoid

This is Hoid’s stand; his cards are on the table, so to speak. He has come out of the shadows to directly oppose Odium. If he loses now he’s likely as good as dead. It seems that he is still trying to keep away from Odium’s notice, when he mentions that he “came to see an old acquaintance, but has spent most of his time hiding instead”. No more pulling strings from obscure positions, I believe he will lend whatever direct aid he can. Hopefully it will be enough.

If this wasn’t long enough already I have one more idea I’ve been mulling over about the Seventeenth Shard. We know their leader, is someone who practices a policy of non-intervention. Presumably he imposes this policy on his followers as well. I believe they probably serve in roles of information gatherers as has speculated before. However I have one idea why they are looking for Hoid. This person the letter is being written to presumably opposes all outside intervention in the workings of various Shardworlds. Who is the King of intervention? Hoid of course. He’s been everywhere and has presumably been helping push the conflicts we’ve seen in the right direction. He also might be attempting to reassemble Andonalsium as well, as other have said. It makes sense; the only surefire way to make sure that the next Odium after Rayse wouldn’t be evil is to make sure there isn’t one. Splintering may not be permanent, but reforming Andonalsium would stop anyone from being influenced by that intent ever again. So for people who believe in non-intervention, Hoid is number one on the cosmere’s most wanted criminals list. Even the way he speaks of laying false trails reminds me of a criminal being hunted, even though I don’t believe Hoid is evil.

Wow this is my longest post ever. Hopefully it provokes some discussion, and some parts prove to be accurate when we get to the end of this thing. I realize this is like the Godzilla of speculation. What does everyone (who made it through this post) think?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

"So obviously Hoid wants new allies in his fight, but it seems to take up a Shard, you must be a user of it's magic system."

Actually I think someone just posted up a transcript where Brandon said that anyone can take up a shard, it didn't have to be a user of the magic system.

Definitely agree with Hoid being hunted for interfering too much

Edited March 20, 2012 by Voidus

[Windrunner]

My bad, I knew that, I just have had the first 2/3 of this saved before that interview came out, and I didn't think to check it last night, good catch though I'll remove it. I do think perhaps that it would be easier for a magic user to take up a Shard. Chaos wrote anyone, so perhaps all that is required is using a Shardpool, which maybe expands your mind a little bit so you can handle being a full Shard.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

Well I think that interaction with a shardpool would turn you into a magic user anyway, lerasium certainly did so maybe it's just that in the instant before you take up the shard you are a user of that magic system

I'd really like to know more about what happened on Sel, hopefully when the next Elantris book comes out we can get more details, I'm particularly interested in how Odium managed to take 2 shards at the same time, I guess he played them off against each other first, kinda like Preservation and Ruin

[Odium's_Shard]

Lerasium wasn't the Shardpool. It was the Power of Creation through Preservation in Physical Form (Solid). Or, of course, PCPPF. The Shardpool here was the Well of Ascension, as it allowed you to take in the very power of the Shard (Preservation) itself. However the problem here was that Ruin was encapsulated in this energy, and so releasing it (while freeing Power to the rest of Scadrial) freed him fully from within.

Lerasium is a metal with an effect much like every other metal. It just has seemingly pure access to Preservation in it, meaning that when burned, it transcribes the data necessary for full Allomancy into your Spiritweb.

[Voidus]

Lerasium (correct me if I'm wrong) is basically just the shardpool in solid form, much as the mists are the same in gaseous form, all are just the concentrated power of preservation. However the solids are more limited in that they may only do 1 thing. I think I can find some quotes for all this, just wanted to get this out. Anyway I think it's very likely that use of a shardpool could grant you access to its magic system.

[Windrunner]

If your looking for quotes check HoA, that's where Sazed and Keiser get in depth about this. The main problem I have with the Well making you a magic user is that it didn't make Vin any stronger once she used it. If it increased the Lord Ruler's power to the same degree as a lerasium mistborn it should have done the same for Vin, making her even more powerful, like she burned a lerasium bead. That didn't happen though.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

I would think that's because she didn't actually use any of it. Kinda like if you gave her lerasium and she never burned it she wouldn't get stronger.

[Windrunner]

However, VIn still became a Sliver even though she gave up the power. I don't really think giving up power makes something different happen to the user. She could have used it but instead dispersed it throughout Scadrial unlocking Ruin in the process. It seems to me like Rashek's power was used like he had a squirt bottle full of power, altering everything with it. Vin on the other hand took the nozzle off and dumped all of it on the ground, but she still had held the bottle (or power) and used it, just not on anything useful. Does that make sense?

[Voidus]

It does, sorry I'm not great at explaining my ideas I overlook things too much. I meant that it would require a conscious act but it is well within the powers of a shardpool to grant magic to the user (I think Lerasium was made from the WoA in the first place wasn't it?)

[Tulir]

I'm sorry for not checking up on this theory before, it is amazing!! This could explain why it is Galladon on Roshar, because it could be that Raoden took up Devotion once it reformed and sent Galladon out with the Seventeeth Shard members to hunt for Hoid.

[Odium's_Shard]

I think that the reason the Well made Vin a Sliver but not more powerful (as it did for Rashek) is because the very definition of Sliver as given by Brandon is 'someone who has held the power of a Shard and been permanently impacted' or around those lines. The 'permanently effected' is the most important bit.

She could be affected because she now feels guilty for releasing Ruin (it doesn't have to be a Spiritual effect, does it?).

It could have made certain alterations to her Spiritweb that didn't beneficially impact her (such as a rework of areas outside of Allomancy).

Or it could be that simply holding the Shard's power for yourself makes you see the world differently. She often speaks about feeling 'devoid' of power now after having felt the true Power of a Shard. Also, I don't know whether Brandon has said whether or not Vin became a Sliver after taking in the Well, or taking in the mists.

If its the latter, then she truly because a Shard, and was visibly impacted (in her mindset?). If the former, see above.

[Triasmus]

I thought Rashek was able to use allomancy because he ate lerasium (and lerasium allomancy is the most powerful). Please correct me (with quotes ) if I'm wrong.

[Voidus]

On Rashek, It's never really stated one way or another, most people assume that he got it by eating a lerasium bead but IIRC lerasium was made from the WoA anyway so I think that it is well within the wells powers to give someone lerasium level (or potentially higher) allomancy.

[Odium's_Shard]

It was stated that Rashek gave the beads of lerasium to his closest allies, who became nobility as he did king. This is why allomancy runs in noble blood, because it is diluted from their original ancestors. But it is noted that Rashek was always more powerful than the nobility, and so could control them. This may have been an augmented description around the mystery and reputation he had, or it may have been made stronger by his use of Compounding and Feruchemy.

[Triasmus]

Well... the friends' loyalty might have stopped them from being pains to Rashek, and then Rashek would be stronger than any of the children (well... he'd also be stronger than any of his friends because of his feruchemy).

[Odium's_Shard]

Yes, yes. Compare Vin to Elend and you can see the effects of dilution, even though Vin is the rare 'Mistborn' type, her powers are far, far weaker than Elend's to start with. Lerasium, in a TLR capability-Allomancy, is extremely potent.

[Bunyod]

Windrunner,

This theory of yours is brilliant! good read. thanks a lot !

[Windrunner]

Yes the Lord Ruler had the same Allomantic strength as the other nine Allomancers, but was definitely more powerful overall. As usual, Sazed puts it the best.

The beads of metal found at the Well—beads that made men into Mistborn—were the reason why Allomancers used to be more powerful. Those first Mistborn were as Elend Venture became—possessing a primal power, which was then passed down through the lines of the nobility, weakening a bit with each generation.

The Lord Ruler was one of these ancient Allomancers, his power pure and unadulterated by time and breeding. That is part of why he was so mighty compared to other Mistborn—though, admittedly, his ability to mix Feruchemy and Allomancy was what produced many of his most spectacular abilities. Still, it is interesting to me that one of his "divine" powers—his essential Allomantic strength—was something every one of the original nine Allomancers possessed.

I'm now firmly in the camp that the Lord Ruler burned lerasium to become an Mistborn, not because of any affect the Well had on him. I don't think he is counted as one of the "Nine Original Allomancers" because the doctrine that presumably references these Allomancers, is the Lord Ruler's own, so since his narrative is that he is god, then he wouldn't want to attribute a more mundane power to himself and count himself among the Allomancers. He was more then that.

Thank you Bunyod!

Edited March 26, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

Yes the Lord Ruler had the same Allomantic strength as the other nine Allomancers, but was definitely more powerful overall. As usual, Sazed puts it the best.

Yes but Ellend had a bead of Lerasium and his allomantic strength wasn't even near what we saw from TLR

[Windrunner]

There are a couple explanations for that. One is that the Lord Ruler decided that he wanted to eat two or more beads of lerasium. I am leaning away from this, because Sazed says that he shared a strength level with the Original Allomancers. Another is that he is using a mysterious form of compounding, that Brandon has mentioned, that allows the user to get more of an Allomantic effect.

He could be using that and increasing the power of his crazy Soothing and Steelpushing abilities, I think pushing on spikes inside someone's body counts as a pretty "spectacular affect". He would be stronger then Elend because Elend has no Feruchemy and so he cannot replicate this. He could also have used Hemalurgy to make himself stronger.

I wonder if an atium spike can store more then one ability at a time? If so he could have killed man with the atium spikes that make his bracers.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Windrunner

[Voidus]

I don't think that atium can store more than one ability, otherwise the Marsh wouldn't have needed 20 odd spikes I do agree that is was probably a result of (reverse?) compounding sorry I thought before that you were saying that all the original mistborn could do this

[Windrunner]

That is a good point about the atium. Maybe they could steal all the powers of a mistborn at once? Marsh couldn't have had it done to him because they would have needed a skaa mistborn, which would have been extremely rare. If that doesn't work, I wonder what powers TLR received with his atium spikes?

[Chaos]

Atium does not steal all attributes at once. Rather, it steals one attribute (as all Hemalurgy), but it's a Hemalurgic wildcard. It can steal any attribute.

CHAOS2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Source

(Hey, lookit who asked that question )

Now, I remember a theory that maybe lerasium spikes could make someone Mistborn with a single spike, which is possible, but entirely speculative.

Anyway. I am in complete agreement with Windrunner, that the Lord Ruler's extreme Allomancy power has nothing to do with the Well of Ascension. Now, I know right after Alloy of Law, there's a thread on the Lord Ruler's power that basically went the same way, but I discovered that actually, the Lord Ruler is using his Feruchemy to enhance his Allomancy. Some weird sort of Compounding. I suspect he can enhance his Allomancy by storing Allomantic Investitures from burning metals into nicrosilminds, and then he Compounds them, so you get a massive burst of the Investiture you stored. But that's pretty speculative.

In any case, this is kind of off-topic...

Getting back on track, I really like this theory, for the most part. It seems pretty reasonable, though the Nalthis part is totally speculative. But hey, it's very reasonable and makes sense.

[Aradel]

Compounding works for allomancy too. Right now some of us think it has to do with storing allomantic power in metalminds, but we're not sure.

Apparantly three people can post in the time it took me to write this.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Goradel's Nephew