16 replies to this topic

[tipbruley]

COMPLETE REEDIT OF THIS POST after rereading a bit more of the book!

Thanks for pointing out the timeline of the books! I think that debunks my last theory but got me thinking!

The letter was Addressed to HOID

Here is what could have happened
The person who wrote the letter killed Rayse and became Odium. After thousands of years Odium has corrupted the writter of the letter, and he now is as bad as Rayse was. Hoid is now here to stop his friend. The 17th shard are members that seek to protect shardbearers from being destroyed (or something similiar) and now hunt Hoid.

TIMELINE:
1) Rayse holding Odium killed Skai and Aona
2) The WoK Letter is written to Hoid
3) The writer of the letter kills Rayse and takes Odium's power for himself
4) Elantris events
5) Way Of King events (Hoid seeks to confront the writer of the letter who now posseses Odium)

WHY I think this makes sense.
The letter sounds like the events in Elantris had just happened, but we know Elantris was thousands of years before the events of the WoK. The letter is written by someone determined to stop Rayse, but from what we see of Hoid he seems like someone who doesn't like interfering with things. I need to look up the quote later but he tells Kaladin that he is here to "See an Old Friend, but has been putting it off". From the letter, the writer said he never liked Rayse, so I am not sure why he would reference Rayse as a friend, but it makes perfect sense for Hoid to reference the writer like that. There is also the question as to why the desolations stopped happening for so long of a time which is answered by this theory.


http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/The_Way_of_Kings's_Epigraph_Letter#cite_note-2

Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well. Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.[1] I realize that you are probably still angry. That is pleasant to know. Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me. It is one of the cosmere’s great constants, I should think.[2] Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe. I have found a good home for it. I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say.[3] You do not agree with my quest. I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely.[4] Might I be quite frank? Before, you asked why I was so concerned. It is for the following reason:[5]Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.[6] He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.[7] One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.[8] In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.[9] You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.[10] Neither point makes the things I have written to you here untrue.[11] I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they’re still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They’ll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.[12] If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you’ll call them off. Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once.[13] For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here. I ask again. Support me. Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives. I’ve never begged you for something before, old friend. I do so now.[14]

Edited by tipbruley, 12 January 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[discipleofhoid]

My biggest concern with this theory is that Brandon has stated that up through WoK the books are published in chronological order. Given that, the splintering of Aona and Skai happened long before Sazed's ascension to shard status. As you pointed out that kinda derails this theory.

From the brandonothology :

You’ve mentioned before that all your books so far are in chronological order (Elantris, the Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, Stormlight Archive). 1). Alloy of Law takes place about 200 years after The Hero of Ages. (Right?) Does this put it chronologically before or after Warbreaker?
The Alloy of Law takes place around 300 years after The Hero of Ages and several hundred years before the events in The Way of Kings. That does put it around the same time as Warbreaker.

This isn't the original quote but I couldn't find the original one and Brandon does not correct the assumption.

[zas678]

Here's one from the Ancient 17th Shard Question that Chaos and Mi'chelle and Rubix did.

CHAOS

Could you tell us a chronology of the Shardworlds thus far? Like, did Warbreaker happen after Mistborn or before, things like that. Personally, I was under the impression you said Mistborn was a sequel to Elantris, but Mi'ch and Josh disagree.

BRANDON SANDERSON

He wasn't positive on where Warbreaker went, but Elantris is first and MB is after it.

[CrazyRioter]

I believe he's since said that Warbreaker takes place after Mistborn and before WoK, also Alloy of Law takes place around the same time as Warbreaker.

[fiveAM]

My biggest concern with this theory is that Brandon has stated that up through WoK the books are published in chronological order. Given that, the splintering of Aona and Skai happened long before Sazed's ascension to shard status. As you pointed out that kinda derails this theory.

From the brandonothology :


This isn't the original quote but I couldn't find the original one and Brandon does not correct the assumption.

Yeah, i was going to say that too. The writer of the Letter appears to be talking of Aona and Skai's death as something that happened not too long ago, and the recipient being aware of Rayse's visit to Sel as it happened. And the mention of Ati once being a gentle man, and "you saw what became of him" is most likely referring to his corruption by his Shard's Intent. With this mention and the lack of mention of Ati's death, the Letter seems likely to have been written BEFORE Sazed picked up Ruin and Preservation.

[Hoidbringer]

Yeah, i was going to say that too. The writer of the Letter appears to be talking of Aona and Skai's death as something that happened not too long ago, and the recipient being aware of Rayse's visit to Sel as it happened. And the mention of Ati once being a gentle man, and "you saw what became of him" is most likely referring to his corruption by his Shard's Intent. With this mention and the lack of mention of Ati's death, the Letter seems likely to have been written BEFORE Sazed picked up Ruin and Preservation.

Considering the way Brandon likes to use some sort of proper physics theories mixed in with his magic I would not at all be surprised if Hoid's "world hopping" is not only a physical way to move, but a temporal way as well. Consider the concept of space-time in physics. Hoid could quite possibly be bending space and thereby time to go where he wants when he wants.

Now tie that into lightweaving. If Hoid can bend/manipulate light, then he can bend/manipulate space and therefore time as well. This would account for his world hopping and his longevity.

Of course a lot of postulation is that Hoid is using Shadesmar to travel and that theory is sound, but perhaps the concepts above play into his ability to travel through Shadesmar as well. If that is indeed how he hops about.

Either way I believe that Hoid not only hops worlds, but hops time as well. It would account for some of the chronological questions brought up concerning his authorship of the letter.

[Thor]

WHY I think this makes sense.
The letter sounds like the events in Elantris had just happened, but we know Elantris was thousands of years before the events of the WoK. The letter is written by someone determined to stop Rayse, but from what we see of Hoid he seems like someone who doesn't like interfering with things. I need to look up the quote later but he tells Kaladin that he is here to "See an Old Friend, but has been putting it off". From the letter, the writer said he never liked Rayse, so I am not sure why he would reference Rayse as a friend, but it makes perfect sense for Hoid to reference the writer like that. There is also the question as to why the desolations stopped happening for so long of a time which is answered by this theory.

While it is an interesting idea, the events during Elantris do NOT chronicle the coming of Odium and the death and Shattering of Skai and Aona. This has been confirmed in a rather round about fashion: Seons were confirmed to be Splinters of a Shard (specifically Aona) and it was then asked if Seons were created during the events that created the Chasm. Brandon answered that Seons existed for quite some time before the Chasm was created. Ergo, Odium came and killed Aona and Skai long before the events of Elantris. I am much too lazy to look up the actual quotes (atm), though I am sure someone can do so...

[tipbruley]

While it is an interesting idea, the events during Elantris do NOT chronicle the coming of Odium and the death and Shattering of Skai and Aona. This has been confirmed in a rather round about fashion: Seons were confirmed to be Splinters of a Shard (specifically Aona) and it was then asked if Seons were created during the events that created the Chasm. Brandon answered that Seons existed for quite some time before the Chasm was created. Ergo, Odium came and killed Aona and Skai long before the events of Elantris. I am much too lazy to look up the actual quotes (atm), though I am sure someone can do so...

I'm not sure how this refutes my theory? I think if anything it supports it. My time line is something along the following lines

1) Rayse holding Odium killed Skai and Aona
2) The WoK Letter is written to Hoid
3) The writer of the letter kills Rayse and takes Odium's power for himself
4) Elantris events
5) Way Of King events (Hoid seeks to confront the writer of the letter who now posseses Odium)

The time between #3 and #5 could be huge which would explain both why the letter presumed the recipient didn't know about Skai and Aona and why the desolation have had such a gap. Otherwise Hoid would be addressing someone about shards being destroyed that happened millenia ago.
MistBorn events

[Windrunner]

Hoid can move through time, but only forward, at least so far...

Chaos2561: Can Hoid jump through time? If so, can Shards jump through time?

Brandon: Hoid, so far, has only moved forward in time. He has not 'lived' all of those years, but has used some time dilation techniques. That said, he is far older (both in relative and real time) than a normal person can live.

[zas678]

I'm going to bring another quote to you that I'm not sure people have seen yet. This is from the West Jordan Landing Barnes and Nobles Q&A in December.

Q. So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?
A. Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.
Q. So by his nature, he can’t combine.
A. I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won’t.

This seems to imply that Odium has stayed the same person the entire time.

[fiveAM]

I'm going to bring another quote to you that I'm not sure people have seen yet. This is from the West Jordan Landing Barnes and Nobles Q&A in December.




This seems to imply that Odium has stayed the same person the entire time.

Ooh~ awesome, that was actually a pet theory I had. It's great to have it confirmed.

Also, if Hoid had taken Odium, and waay back when, he should have been corrupted by Odium's Intent but we've never seen Hoid angry or hateful. He's always been a bit mysterious but never showed a temper or a strong dislike for someone/something. In WoK, as Wit, Hoid is much more expressive and even then we never see him hateful, just inquisitive and quite witty.

[tipbruley]

I'm going to bring another quote to you that I'm not sure people have seen yet. This is from the West Jordan Landing Barnes and Nobles Q&A in December.

Q. So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?
A. Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.
Q. So by his nature, he can’t combine.
A. I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won’t.


This seems to imply that Odium has stayed the same person the entire time.

Odium is very different from Rayse. Odium corrupts the bearer overtime so that it bends the person to its will (like all shards), regardless of who holds it, so Brandon's quote is a generalization of anyone who holds Odium not actually a specific person. The quote seems to imply that it is the nature of the shard (not the bearer) that would seek to be the only person remaining.

Ooh~ awesome, that was actually a pet theory I had. It's great to have it confirmed.

Also, if Hoid had taken Odium, and waay back when, he should have been corrupted by Odium's Intent but we've never seen Hoid angry or hateful. He's always been a bit mysterious but never showed a temper or a strong dislike for someone/something. In WoK, as Wit, Hoid is much more expressive and even then we never see him hateful, just inquisitive and quite witty.

I'm not saying Hoid had taken Odium. I am saying that the letter was written TO Hoid, and whoever wrote it (not sure who) took Odium and is the evil force we see in WoK.

[Thor]

My first post wasn't the greatest in this thread, so I will attempt to describe my disagreements a little better.

COMPLETE REEDIT OF THIS POST after rereading a bit more of the book!

Thanks for pointing out the timeline of the books! I think that debunks my last theory but got me thinking!

The letter was Addressed to HOID

Here is what could have happened
The person who wrote the letter killed Rayse and became Odium. After thousands of years Odium has corrupted the writter of the letter, and he now is as bad as Rayse was. Hoid is now here to stop his friend. The 17th shard are members that seek to protect shardbearers from being destroyed (or something similiar) and now hunt Hoid.

TIMELINE:
1) Rayse holding Odium killed Skai and Aona
2) The WoK Letter is written to Hoid
3) The writer of the letter kills Rayse and takes Odium's power for himself
4) Elantris events
5) Way Of King events (Hoid seeks to confront the writer of the letter who now posseses Odium)

WHY I think this makes sense.
The letter sounds like the events in Elantris had just happened, but we know Elantris was thousands of years before the events of the WoK. The letter is written by someone determined to stop Rayse, but from what we see of Hoid he seems like someone who doesn't like interfering with things. I need to look up the quote later but he tells Kaladin that he is here to "See an Old Friend, but has been putting it off". From the letter, the writer said he never liked Rayse, so I am not sure why he would reference Rayse as a friend, but it makes perfect sense for Hoid to reference the writer like that. There is also the question as to why the desolations stopped happening for so long of a time which is answered by this theory.

I am not sure how you are getting the idea that the letter is being written just after Skai and Aona have been killed. The writing suggests, to me, at least, that Skai and Aona have been dead for quite a while and that the writer of the letter is being purposefully rude to the recipient by saying "you are so far from reality that I bet you didn't even notice that two Shards have been killed and Splintered."

I feel like the bolded section is untrue: Hoid has interfered in almost every place he has traveled, whether it be a fairly small observed role (Elantris, MB 1/3) to a fairly large observed role (Warbreaker, WoK) or even a large, but unobserved, role (MB 2, where it is suspected that Hoid swiped a Lerasium bead). Additionally, during the following segments of the letter, I believe that the letter is being written as of the Way of Kings, or very near by in time and that Rayse is very much alive:

[5]Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.[6] He holds the most frightening and terrible of all of the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.[7] One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.[8] In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.[9] You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true.[10] Neither point makes the things I have written to you here untrue.[11] I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they’re still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They’ll be happier that way.

Specifically, the lines on Rayse mention him in the present and future tenses "He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards" "Rayse will not be similarly inhibited." Perpetuating a grudge against a dead person, especially if the writer has, as you put forward, killed Rayse, makes VERY little sense, especially when no mention is made by the writer of taking up Odium, which is another part of your supposition. And, if the writer of the letter has the power to kill Rayse and take over Odium, he doesn't really need to worry about ANYONE disagreeing with him, except maybe Sazed.

Additionally, why would Hoid's "friends" in the Seventeenth Shard be chasing him during the events of WoK if they are chasing the writer during the time where the letter is written? (I know you addressed this before, but I seriously doubt that a trio of worldhoppers could stop a being who has even a chance to kill a Shard.) We don't even know how long the Seventeenth Shard has been in existence, as it may be a fairly recent development in the Cosmere's overall timeline. Occam's razor would suggest that since that the worldhoppers in the intermission of WoK are chasing Hoid without success and the writer says that members of the Seventeenth Shard are chasing him and he has left a false trail for them, then the simplest form of the events would be that Hoid is the writer of the letter, as his being the writer makes the simplest sense from the facts we have. Still, interesting idea.

[SerArthurHeath]

Surely a key thing to note is that for the likes of Shards and world-hopping Hoid, thousands of years are probably "just now". Shards are effectively immortal in terms of age and Hoid was there when they were all formed. Aon and Skai's splintering do not have to be recent by our standards to count as such for the proposed writer and recipient of the letter

[Vortaan]

The question I would have is how is Hoid "essentially immortal?" I seem to recall reading some things that lead me to believe that Hoid COULD be killed, he's just too strong/smart to have been killed yet.

[fiveAM]

The question I would have is how is Hoid "essentially immortal?" I seem to recall reading some things that lead me to believe that Hoid COULD be killed, he's just too strong/smart to have been killed yet.

Immortal is more about not dying normally (ie old age) than being unkillable. Like the Greek gods or almost any other gods in myth they were immortal. I can't remember if any of the Greek gods die (actually I guess the Titans..) but I know in Norse mythology, ALL the gods die in Ragnarok. You're thinking of invincible. Hoid is "essentially immortal" because he has time dilation techniques (whatever that really means) that lets him jump around in time and he has longer life (I believe in the same interview where his essential immortality is mentioned BS also mentions that he is very old too).

[CrazyRioter]

well there are different levels and definitions of immortality, some would restrict the term "immortal" to beings that can't be killed no matter what, and sometimes can't even be hurt, others would use it for beings that don't age but can be killed, and there are some beings in stories that can be killed but just come back to life later on. Lots of people use the term "ageless" for beings that can die just like a regular person but won't die of old age. Basically you have to define what you mean when you say immortal.