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Cleaned up version: We know one order of KRs did not betray their oaths, concealing that with great subterfuge. We see two orders (Windrunners and Stonewards) in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance When trying to answer the question of which order is was, point 2 is used rule those two orders out. But is that valid? Or could the "great subterfuge" be that e.g. the Stonewards either faked their participation or they had most of their members participate to conceal that a small number did not? This has come up in a few threads now, but more as a comment/idea. I decided to start this thread to discuss how viable one or both are. Note that these could apply to the other orders as well, but the obvious interest is the Stonewards. Pros to faking participation in the Recreance: Still have the entire team together. Cons to faking participation in the Recreance: Requires some impressive illusions, which suggests the Lightweavers are most likely able to pull this off. But we have no reason to suspect them, and a lot of recent theories favor linking the Stormwards with the Shin. That's a big secret to keep, especially over time. And a lot of people to keep that secret. Shouldn't something have worked its way into the history books? Or should Honor have taken notice? It seems like they would need to go to ground or come up with a mass cover. How the heck do you keep the spren from blabbing? If every order participated with at least one other order: Would the "faking-their-death" spren really want to be anywhere near a bunch of their spren actually dying? And even if they thought they could tough it out, could they really? Pros to actually participating in the Recreance: In theory much easier to keep a secret. The Stonewards+Shin tie-in makes a lot of sense thematically, and this makes that possible. Moreso if only 8 remained as part of the order. It could explain certain views the Shin have (with such a high price to pay, they may abhor violence -- or that was part of the cover, that may have over time become a new adopted philosophy. ) and why they have the honorblades. Cons to actually participating in the Recreance: Wow, that's a major sacrifice if you don't actually agree with it. ??? Some random thoughts/questions: How likely would any non-bonded spren notice the subterfuge? Would Honor notice? And if so, why not mention the order in the visions? Because he could not predict what state they would be in? Still, why not even throw in a quick line about trying to contact the this order? Was he in on the subterfuge? The Stormfather hasn't had a chance to mention it yet? When was Vorin religoen and the Ardents formed? In the "faking participation" scenario, that could be one way to cover up what happened, but I thought both predated the Recreance? Though that may not stop a mass influx of ardents (and they may be able to wipe that from the history books). Is there any other group or city that they could have gone to or formed? How long have the Shin been around (or their leaders)? I am particularly interested in ways that the subterfuge may have been noticed. For example, would it be easier from Shadesmar? If Honor, Cultivation, or Odium noticed, would they leave us any hints (and what may those be)?