Fighting Stances in WoR [SPOILERS]

[Ailessar]

This is my very first theory post!  The sword fighting in WoR has been provoking fangasms in me.  I’ve been looking for more information about the different new fighting styles in WoR, and after finding out that there are at least ten stances, one for each of the Ten Essences, I’ve been hunting the book for whatever I can find.  I badly want to visualize the fighting styles as they’re described in the book.
 
Thankfully Shallan’s artwork and the Ironstance scroll have been very helpful, but I’m having trouble putting the right image to the right stance.  Has anyone already figured this out and/or is there a resource somewhere that has already catalogued this?  I’ve already checked the Coppermind Wiki.
 
My theory is that Shallan’s sketch shows all ten of the stances. 
 
(Edited to add)
 
Ben McSweeney, aka Inkthinker, the wonderful artist who has created the following sketch and others in the books that make them come to such vivid, three-dimensional life and richness for me, has kindly explained to us a few things about the sketch.  
 
 

Every illustration in a Stormlight book represents a real-world document. And the funny thing about documents, especially documents in a society that's semi-literate, is that they're not always accurate to the finest detail. Sometimes people mess things up or make mistakes, and we take advantage of that in the pieces we do for the book.
 
Isaac's page is based on similar documents published by fighting schools in Europe a few hundred years ago, sometimes called "fechtbuchs" (fight books). They're often a little interpretive, meant to serve as a study aid rather than as an honest representation of movement. Shallan's pages are (unfortunately for me) seen as more accurate because of the nature of her powers, but she's not infallible and she's not always drawing a "Memory", sometimes she's just working in the ways of a natural illustrator. Lastly, she draws as an observer of a subject rather than an expert IN the subject, so sometimes she misses out on a detail because she doesn't recognize it's importance.
 
I know a lot of that boils down to basically weaseling loopholes. Part of playing with Brandon's toys is that I have to be careful about what I say regarding behind-the-scenes bits. I expect to speak with Brandon fairly soon, and I'll see what he wants me to say about the stances then. In the meantime, you guys are doing pretty good with the deductive reasoning so far.

 
 
 

Larger image here
 
Brandon told me at the signing in Philly that Ben made the final determinations about what the stances looked like, so we're all waiting with baited breath for Ben to reveal whatever Brandon sees fit to let us know.  
 
Meanwhile, the rest of this post consists of theorizing by us, the fans.  
 
~~~~
 
Ironstance was easy, the scroll was displayed right before the Ironstance chapter.   In my opinion, abdf gives a convincing argument here that the warrior in the lower left (the stance we call #4) that I previously thought of as Ironstance is actually Adolin in his favorite stance, Windstance.  The "sigh" scribbled under the face convinced me that Shallan is drooling here over Adolin!  On the other hand, name_here makes some good points here to indicate that the warrior in the lower left is in Ironstance.

The six known stances are a bit harder to match but I think some can be recognized.  The others may have to wait for future books.  So far there are still four unnamed stances which will be after the essences of “oil/tallow,”  “Lucentia/the eyes,” “blood,” and “sinew/flesh.” 
 
The Ten Essences are listed in this graph in the Coppermind wiki:
http://coppermind.net/wiki/Ten_Essences
 
 
~~~~
These are some of the related threads  I’ve found:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3833-shardblade-forms/?hl=stances started by DocHoliday 
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3044-stances-in-twok/?hl=stances started by Mailliw73
 
A question was asked if whether each of the stances are specifically geared towards a particular order?  I tend to agree with the explanation that these are fighting styles that have simply evolved with the names of the ten essences, with characteristics of the Order or Essence they’re named after.
 
 
~~~~
 
Also, here's the link to the thread where they're trying to translate the glyphs for the scroll, or fechtbuch as it is called:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6487-thaylen-and-alethi-glyph-translation/ started by Harakeke
 

Larger image here
 
Here's a link to the KR chart endpaper, created by of Isaac Stewart, that show the KR glyphs:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6888-knights-radiant-and-surges-endsheet/?hl=chart

 

AwesomenessSummoned has created awesome graphics of the glyphs on the fechtbuch, as shown in this post. These are some of them:

 

         

 

 
~~~~

 
THE STANCES 

(Edited to factor everyone's input)
(In Alphabetical Order)
Flamestance

• “Flamestance: quick and flexible, better for shorter Shardblades.” -WoR, p. 224 
•  “[salinor] fell into Flamestance, sword held one-handed, other hand touching the blade, standing with a square posture of the feet. " - WoR, pg. 224
• "Salinor dropped his Blade— a weakness of Flamestance’s one-handed posture…” - WoR, p 224 
• Used by Salinor in Adolin’s first arena duel
• "[Adolin] needed the frantic fury of Flamestance. Not just for the power, but because of what he needed to convey to Eshonai." -WoR p. 1011 
• Interesting comparison by Rust and Ruin –
• 
  

  “Flamestance seems to be very reminiscent of Saito Hajime's signature stance in Kenshin:http://www.gigaventu...13/03/HZEKr.jpg (from the live action movie)”

   

 
Possibly based on this stance in Kuk Sool Won, the Korean martial art, as discovered by PorridgeBrick here:
http://www.kuksoolwon-hurlburt.com/pictures/amado_sword_stance.jpg
 
 
 
 
Ironstance 

•  “It wasn't time for a show. It was time for a beating...Adolin twisted and fell into Ironstance, with his sword held two-handed up beside his head.” - Wor, p. 224
• "Adolin twisted and fell into Ironstance, with his sword held two-handed up beside his head. He slapped away Salinor’s first strike, then stepped in and slammed his Blade down into the man’s helm. Once, twice, three times" - WoR 224
• Seems to favor quick, inelegant, powerful hits
• TheArcanist -
   
  

  The diagrams which are almost certainly Ironstance [Fig. 4, Fig. 2] both favour a stance which is halfway between Horse-Riding Stance and Bent-Leg-Glass-Horse Stance, while the shardblade is in a position known as Woman's Guard in the German manuels (If memory serves), which offers a quick smashing blow downwards and swift blocking across the body. This sets you up into the same stance placed on the opposite side of the body, so you can link together several blows without interruption unless your opponent is particularly skilled.

abdf and PorridgeBrick's vote:
abdf -
 

In the verbal description of how the sword is held, the are practically the same, and the fact that Adolin went from his favorite Windstance to Ironstance when he decided to go to no-nonsense mode, could mean he transferred to a kind of more simple and quick variation of windstance...[/size]My vote is for whether the edge is forward or backward. If you want to be ready for quick straight strike, especially if you want quick succession of strikes once you parried the opponent and went inside his reach, you want your edge forward, pointed at the opponent.[/size]
 
If your edge is outward, then I'm ready to sweep. Like a woodcutter ready to strike with an axe. T land a sweeping strike you have to hold your edge initially outward.

 
PorridgeBrick - 
 
 
 

This is in the arena scene where Adolin is mauling Salinor with Ironstance. Notice how he's hitting down onto his helm. That sounds like a straight overhead strike. In #2, that would be a very awkward strike to make. You would have to do twist your body forward to be able to do so, and the resulting pose would happen to look very similar to #1, or maybe #2. Adolin specifically mentions twisting when he transitions to Ironstance, in fact. Ironstance has to be #1 or #2 just because those are the only stances set up for the chopping motions mentioned, just like adbf was saying. They're both utilitarian stances as Rust and Ruin mentioned, just like Ironstance.

 
 
or  or name_here's vote
 
 
 
 
Smokestance

• "Dalinar moved to the overturned table and kicked off one of the legs. He scooped it up, falling into Smokestance's sword-and-knife form." -WoK p. 299 (Good catch by Harakeke!)
• "Dalinar leapt forward— remaining in motion was the essence of Smokestance— and spun between the creatures, striking to the side with his poker." - WoK, p. 299
• "Dalinar let the fluid nature of Smokestance direct him, stepping to the side and smashing the poker into the beast’s legs." - WoR, p. 300
• “[Dalinar] had been trained in classical Windstance, but he fell into Smokestance instead, as it was better with an imperfect weapon. One foot forward, one foot behind, sword— or, in this case, poker— held forward with the tip toward his opponent’s heart." - WoK, P. 298
• “Adolin tried Smokestance, attacking with a quick sequence of jabs." -WoR p 1023
• TheArcanist notes:
   
  

  What you've identified as Smokestance [Figure. 7] strongly resembles the longsword-and-dagger form of the Italian style. From practice, I know that this particular stance isn't great if you want really powerful attacks with the edge of the blade but it is ridiculously fast, and keeps you mobile.

 
 
 
 
 
Stonestance 

• “…to be immobile.”  
• "Adolin fell into Stonestance himself, smashing his Blade down again and again against Abrobadar’s raised sword until he heard grunts, curses."  - WoR p. 660
•  Rust and Ruin pointed out how   

• “the way the legs are straighter and more spread apart than other stances seems to indicate less focus on mobility, and the sword itself is point forward, making it more defensive than offensive…

• TheArcanist - [/size] 
  

  The image identified as Stonestance in the OP [Fig. 5] is almost a direct copy of the Boar Guard (That's the correct name, I think) in the German manuels, which is the basic all-purpose defense/attack posture. Where the sword is positioned, it's very easy to move your opponent's blade off to the side, or down, which leaves you in an advantageous position.

 
 
 
Vinestance 

• “[Relis] preferred Vinestance, slow and steady, but with sudden, quick lunges." - WoR, p. 656
• “The man attacked quickly, using what Kaladin could now identify as Vinestance— a style of fighting that focused on defensive footing and flexibility."  - WoR, p. 667
• TheArcanist -
   
  

  With regards to positioning, Vinestance [Fig. 3] is exactly the same as Stonestance, but with the bent legs, it offers more mobility and flexibility. It might not look like it, but that stance is actually perfect for moving in essentially any direction you want into any stance, block, or attack. In the martial arts I've practiced, it's called Fighting Stance, or Forward Stance, and it is the most vital thing you can learn with regards to stance as a base for attack and defense.

Possibly?

 
or adbf's votes:
 
 
 
 
 
Windstance 

• "Adolin used Windstance, turned sideways slightly, hands before him and elbows bent, Shardblade pointing back over his head." - WoK, p. 822
• "Adolin dodged another blow, but he had begun to move into Windstance’s offensive forms." - WoK, p. 824
• "Dalinar was once again forced to parry, something Windstance wasn’t intended do to." - WoK, p. 930
• “Adolin fell into Windstance, elbows bent, turned to the side, sword’s tip pointing up and backward.” - WoR, p. 224
• “Windstance: flowing, sweeping, majestic.” - WoR, p. 224
• "Adolin danced away in Windstance— certainly the best against so many foes— with both hands holding the Blade in front of him, positioned sideways with one foot forward." - WoR, p. 659
• Rust and Ruin also points out that

• Stance 1 seems extremely utilitarian (from kendo, against a foe holding a sword like this, it is difficult to know if the sword is going to come straight down, diagonally, or from the side because it can very quickly become either strike - holding a sword like this invites mindgames and bluffing)[/size], the "sweeping, majestic" description that seems to better fit with Stance 9, though the sword point is incorrect.

• TheArcanist (for fig. 1 & 9, which is removed) –
   
  

  The Windstance images [Fig. 1, Fig. 9] seem to be based on Roof Guard and Ox Guard in the German manuels, respectively. I've never found a use for Roof Guard, but Ox Guard allows for long, sweeping, edge-length cuts that are easily chained together because the end of the blow sets up Ox Guard on the other side.

adbf and PorridgeBrick's vote:
 
PorridgeBrick -
 

As for Windstance, it can't be #1. While it does point up and backwards, it's certainly not sweeping and majestic, and the elbows are hardly bent. And instead of being turned to the side, it's the most forward facing of all the stances after Vinestance. But what does fulfill all those requirements? #4. The edge is out for a sweep, he's turned to the side, the tip is up and back, his elbows are bent, and he's pretty damnation majestic looking. Additionally, the transition between it and #1 is a twist of the torso, just like between Windstance and Ironstance. [/size]

 
 or name_here's vote 
 
 
 
 
 ~~~
 
 
 
The only images we can't account for yet:
 

 
 
 
~~~~
 
Thanks to TheArcanist and PorridgeBrick, who think that possible influences are:

• German/Italian longsword fencing schools - TheArcanist's post here, and the pdf  he linked. 
• Kuk Sool Won, Korean martial arts - PorridgeBrick's post here
• Kendo, the Japanese sword martial art - PorridgeBrick's post here  and TheArcanist's post here

~~~~

 

 
Thank you for everybody's help!  Any quotes and input are appreciated!
 
 
(Edited to add possible influences; corrected some typos and added Kuk Sool Won pic to Flamestance 03/15/2014)
(Edited to add link to glyph translation thread, added links for pdf and Kuk Sool Won 0318)
(Edited to remove my votes for Ironstance and Windstance.  I think PorridgeBrick and abdf are correct.  03/18/2014)
(Edited to add more links 03/19/2014)
(Edited some paragraphs and corrected spelling 03/20/2014)
(Edited to add new votes 03/23/2014)
(Edited to add Inkthinker's quote 03/24/2014)

(Edited to add AwesomenessSummoned's graphic glyphs 03252014)

Edited March 25, 2014 by Ailessar

[Gamma Fiend]

Very nicely done! Upvote!

[Assassin in White]

I always pictured smokestance more of a rapier type stance because of the "tip of the blade pointing to the heart" line.

[PorridgeBrick]

6 looks a lot like Smokestance to me. As for Stonestance, it sounds like maybe 2, though we really know too little to tell.

[Harakeke]

"Dalinar moved to the overturned table and kicked off one of the legs. He scooped it up, falling into Smokestance's sword-and-knife form." -WoK p. 299

Seems more consistent with #7 to me.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Harakeke

[Rust and Ruin]

This is really cool - I keep forgetting to go back and think more about details like this.

 

Good catch on the Windstance reference - while Stance 1 seems extremely utilitarian (from kendo, against a foe holding a sword like this, it is difficult to know if the sword is going to come straight down, diagonally, or from the side because it can very quickly become either strike - holding a sword like this invites mindgames and bluffing), the "sweeping, majestic" description that seems to better fit with Stance 9, though the sword point is incorrect.

 

Stonestance seems like 5 - the way the legs are straighter and more spread apart than other stances seems to indicate less focus on mobility, and the sword itself is point forward, making it more defensive than offensive.

 

Flamestance seems to be very reminiscent of Saito Hajime's signature stance in Kenshin: http://www.gigaventure.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/HZEKr.jpg (from the live action movie)

 

Thanks for taking the time to work on this. Makes me wonder if Kaladin is going to learn any of these forms or transition them to his own style.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Rust and Ruin

[Ailessar]

Seems more consistent with #7 to me. 

 

Good catch on Smokestance, Harakeke!  I do see Dalinar falling into that stance while fighting the monster,  and the tip is the closer in orientation towards the heart, as Assassin in White also notes.  

 

Very cool. Thanks!  So I think that should be definitive for Smokestance? But I’ll put PorridgeBrick’s suggestion down too. 

 

 

Flamestance seems to be very reminiscent of Saito Hajime's signature stance in  Kenshin:http://www.gigaventu...13/03/HZEKr.jpg (from the live action movie)

 

 

Thanks for the link, Rust and Ruin.  Yes, I sort of saw it like that too.  The only other ones that look like they might be one handed, with the other hand to the sword,  is 6 (non-grip hand looks too high to be on the hilt) and maybe 2. 

 

You've brought up some fascinating points about Windstance.  Do you know a lot about kendo?  The only things I know about it are what I watch on YouTube and some reading I’ve done.

 

And I agree with your take on Stonestance.  It does seem to be solid as a rock.  So I’ll put that image under the stance.

 

~~~

 

I hope we get to see more of these stances, and have the other ones identified in future books. 

 

I've tentatively rearranged the images to reflect everyone's thoughts, and also alphabetized them.  I am also going to add all the associated quotes to each stance that we've come up with so far.

 

Thanks for all your help! Any input is appreciated!

[PorridgeBrick]

"Dalinar moved to the overturned table and kicked off one of the legs. He scooped it up, falling into Smokestance's sword-and-knife form." -WoK p. 299

Seems more consistent with #7 to me.

 Oh, that's definitely right then. Guess I'll retract my vote for #6.

This is really cool - I keep forgetting to go back and think more about details like this.

 

Good catch on the Windstance reference - while Stance 1 seems extremely utilitarian (from kendo, against a foe holding a sword like this, it is difficult to know if the sword is going to come straight down, diagonally, or from the side because it can very quickly become either strike - holding a sword like this invites mindgames and bluffing), the "sweeping, majestic" description that seems to better fit with Stance 9, though the sword point is incorrect.

 

Stonestance seems like 5 - the way the legs are straighter and more spread apart than other stances seems to indicate less focus on mobility, and the sword itself is point forward, making it more defensive than offensive.

 

Flamestance seems to be very reminiscent of Saito Hajime's signature stance in Kenshin: http://www.gigaventure.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/HZEKr.jpg (from the live action movie)

 

Thanks for taking the time to work on this. Makes me wonder if Kaladin is going to learn any of these forms or transition them to his own style.

 

So there's someone who actually knows what they're talking about? I bow to your knowledge here.

Haha, I was thinking the exact same thing for Flamestance. I wonder if that's where Brandon got his inspiration from. Is there any practical reason for that stance in real martial arts?

[Ailessar]

. I wonder if that's where Brandon got his inspiration from. 

 

I'm wondering that too.  Does anyone know if Brandon is a martial arts fan?  Does he have an inner samurai fighting to get out?  Or maybe he had a martial arts expert to consult in creating his own martial arts system?  These might be interesting questions to ask him when I go to the signing in Philly.  

 

If you've rescinded your vote, PorridgeBrick, I'll crown Smokestance as being definitiely identified.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Aile

[PorridgeBrick]

Well, I don't know his martial arts interests, but I do know Peter watches anime, so Brandon might too. I don't believe he consulted anyone on martial arts since I don't remember anything mentioned in the Acknowledgements, but I could be wrong. I'll check now.

Edit: Yep, nothing in the Acknowledgements.

Edited March 13, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[adbf]

About the difference between Ironstance and Windstance:

 

In the verbal description of how the sword is held, the are practically the same, and the fact that Adolin went from his favorite Windstance to Ironstance when he decided to go to no-nonsense mode, could mean he transferred to a kind of more simple and quick variation of windstance.

 

So both #2 and #4 look like the stance from the scroll. The difference is that #2 has the sword left from the head instead of right, while #4 has the sharp edge backward while on the scroll it's forward. Which difference is more important?

 

My vote is for whether the edge is forward or backward. If you want to be ready for quick straight strike, especially if you want quick succession of strikes once you parried the opponent and went inside his reach, you want your edge forward, pointed at the opponent.

 

If your edge is outward, then I'm ready to sweep. Like a woodcutter ready to strike with an axe. T land a sweeping strike you have to hold your edge initially outward.

 

Therefore #4 is the Windstance, while #2 is the Ironstance.

[TheArcanist]

While I can't, at the moment, particularly pick out one style from another just from the pictures and quotes, I do recognize many of the positions from German and Italian longsword fencing manuels.

 

What you've identified as Smokestance [Figure. 7] strongly resembles the longsword-and-dagger form of the Italian style. From practice, I know that this particular stance isn't great if you want really powerful attacks with the edge of the blade but it is ridiculously fast, and keeps you mobile. The diagrams which are almost certainly Ironstance [Fig. 4, Fig. 2] both favour a stance which is halfway between Horse-Riding Stance and Bent-Leg-Glass-Horse Stance, while the shardblade is in a position known as Woman's Guard in the German manuels (If memory serves), which offers a quick smashing blow downwards and swift blocking across the body. This sets you up into the same stance placed on the opposite side of the body, so you can link together several blows without interruption unless your opponent is particularly skilled. The image identified as Stonestance in the OP [Fig. 5] is almost a direct copy of the Boar Guard (That's the correct name, I think) in the German manuels, which is the basic all-purpose defense/attack posture. Where the sword is positioned, it's very easy to move your opponent's blade off to the side, or down, which leaves you in an advantageous position.

 

With regards to positioning, Vinestance [Fig. 3] is exactly the same as Stonestance, but with the bent legs, it offers more mobility and flexibility. It might not look like it, but that stance is actually perfect for moving in essentially any direction you want into any stance, block, or attack. In the martial arts I've practiced, it's called Fighting Stance, or Forward Stance, and it is the most vital thing you can learn with regards to stance as a base for attack and defense. The Windstance images [Fig. 1, Fig. 9] seem to be based on Roof Guard and Ox Guard in the German manuels, respectively. I've never found a use for Roof Guard, but Ox Guard allows for long, sweeping, edge-length cuts that are easily chained together because the end of the blow sets up Ox Guard on the other side. Fig. 10 resembles the Iron Door Guard in the manuels, and I'm not sure what Fig. 6 is for. With regards to Flamestance [Fig. 8] doesn't look like a sword-based stance, but resembles a staff/spear guard more closely. I'll ask a friend of mine who practices longstaff.

[PorridgeBrick]

He slapped away Salinor's first strike, then stepped in and slammed his blade down into the man's helm. Once, twice, three times. (

Pg 224)

This is in the arena scene where Adolin is mauling Salinor with Ironstance. Notice how he's hitting down onto his helm. That sounds like a straight overhead strike. In #2, that would be a very awkward strike to make. You would have to do twist your body forward to be able to do so, and the resulting pose would happen to look very similar to #1, or maybe #2. Adolin specifically mentions twisting when he transitions to Ironstance, in fact. Ironstance has to be #1 or #2 just because those are the only stances set up for the chopping motions mentioned, just like adbf was saying. They're both utilitarian stances as Rust and Ruin mentioned, just like Ironstance.

As for Windstance, it can't be #1. While it does point up and backwards, it's certainly not sweeping and majestic, and the elbows are hardly bent. And instead of being turned to the side, it's the most forward facing of all the stances after Vinestance. But what does fulfill all those requirements? #4. The edge is out for a sweep, he's turned to the side, the tip is up and back, his elbows are bent, and he's pretty damnation majestic looking. Additionally, the transition between it and #1 is a twist of the torso, just like between Windstance and Ironstance.

[Ailessar]

adbf and PorridgeBrick, I’ll put your votes down for Windstance and Ironstance, thanks!  You’ve brought up very good points, especially about the orientation of the blade edge and the transition from Windstance to Ironstance, and that quote does support it.

 

 

 

while #4 has the sharp edge backward while on the scroll it's forward. 

 

adbf, do you mean these two stances?  So the blade on the left is facing the right, not left?

 

 

 

The reason I think # 1  seems to be good match for Windstance is in the description itself. "Adolin used Windstance, turned sideways slightly, hands before him and elbows bent, Shardblade pointing back over his head."   I may be wrong, but it’s the only one that has the hands before him, and not to the side of the head, and where the Shardblade is pointing back over his head.  (For that reason, I’m removing # 9 from Windstance, since the hands are beside his head, as in Ironstance).  The elbows don’t seem tremendously bent at that angle but I think if there were a front-view that it would more clearly show the elbows bent.  However, I do agree that it is facing more forward than “sideways slightly.” Hmm…

 

Also, if we are going to assume that these stances take on some characteristic of their Essences and Orders, however slight, I think that the blade being up so high in # 1 , in fact the highest of any of the depicted stances, might indicate that this stance is meant for those sweeping, majestic cuts where you have the most space above and around you, as a Windrunner, for example, might have that space fighting when he is aloft.  So my vote stays for # 1 for Windstance.

 

~~~

 

Thanks for the info, Arcanist!  Woot, another martial arts expert in the house!  So you think we’ve matched the stances to the images so far, then?  Or do you have other opinions as to which is what?  I’ll include your comments for each stance above because I think they are very informative.

 

~~~

 

To make things more complicated, now I am wondering if those images in Shallan’s sketch do not actually depict each of the ten stances, but are perhaps forms of the stances that are known so far?  Could each stance have more than one form, perhaps?  What do the martial arts experts think?

 

And what about the stances of the right-hand opponent here?

 

It’s a lot of fun trying to figure what is what, but I’m seriously thinking of asking Brandon when I go to have my book signed next week in Philly if he could match these images to the stances.  I’ll bring a printout.  If anyone else is going to the signings before the Philly one (March 21) and would be inclined to ask Brandon for confirmation, please do!  If you like, I can email you a printout with the images in a list format so Brandon can make note of the stance more easily.

 

Thanks again everyone!

Edited March 14, 2014 by Aile

[TheArcanist]

I do think that the stances have been fairly accurately matched to the diagrams, but it would be a good idea to ask Brandon about them if you get the chance. I'm hardly an expert, but I'll help any way I can. Shallan's sketches almost certainly identify just one stance each- a stance is identified mostly by the placement of the feet, the positioning of the hands or weapon is secondary. However, the text does seem to indicate that there are variations upon each stance, as Dalinar specifically mentions "The sword-and-dagger form of Smokestance".

 

With regards to the scroll, it seems to outline a rote duel- attack by the opponent, block, parry, counterattack. It goes something like this.

 

Left-Hand Warrior (Jagged Blade, unadorned Shardplate)

- Begins in Ironstance [Fig. 4] and awaits attack

- Responds to attack by kneeling to accept the weight of the blow, twists to one side to bring his blade across his body and parry

- Slides backwards into Long Cat stance, drops sword into Hanging Point guard to disengage the opponent's weapon. Notice the point is pretty much in the ground and the edge is in an awkward position to respond.

- Lunges; the blow pierces the Plate and kills his opponent.

 

Right-Hand Warrior (Smooth Blade, Shardplate with Red accents)

- Begins in Fool's Guard in an effort to get the other warrior to take advantage of the apparent opening.

- Slips into Smokestance [Fig. 7] and jabs upwards towards the head, or brings the blade up and attempts to cut down.

- Lunges in Smokestance. The other warrior's parry leaves a huge opening, he has no defence.

- Dies from a Shardblade through the chest.

[PorridgeBrick]

The reason I think # 1  seems to be good match for Windstance is in the description itself. "Adolin used Windstance, turned sideways slightly, hands before him and elbows bent, Shardblade pointing back over his head."   I may be wrong, but it’s the only one that has the hands before him, and not to the side of the head, and where the Shardblade is pointing back over his head.  (For that reason, I’m removing # 9 from Windstance, since the hands are beside his head, as in Ironstance).  The elbows don’t seem tremendously bent at that angle but I think if there were a front-view that it would more clearly show the elbows bent.  However, I do agree that it is facing more forward than “sideways slightly.” Hmm…

 

Also, if we are going to assume that these stances take on some characteristic of their Essences and Orders, however slight, I think that the blade being up so high in # 1 , in fact the highest of any of the depicted stances, might indicate that this stance is meant for those sweeping, majestic cuts where you have the most space above and around you, as a Windrunner, for example, might have that space fighting when he is aloft.  So my vote stays for # 1 for Windstance.

 

Hmm... The hands before him does mess up everything. But it still makes no sense as #1, unfortunately. #1 is in perfect position for the kind of overhead axe chops he's described performing in Ironstance. If you've ever seen kendo (I don't play it, but I've seen a bit of it), the way they go on the offense is exactly like that. They hold it above their head in the same position as #1, and then bring it down onto their opponent with rapid, powerful chops and a few side chops mixed in. That's how Adolin attacks: he chops straight down three times, then does a powerful sideways chop into his breastplate once Salinor catches on and parries the third. Adolin has zero reason to move to a different stance to do that, since that kind of rapid offense is the whole point of being in Stance 1.

I'm not sure else it could be, then. Maybe the hands are before the main plane of his body? His torso is twisted to the side in #4 such that his hands could conceivably be described as before it even if his head isn't necessarily facing the same way. But that's still stretching a lot. It may also indicate that the depicted images are different forms of the stances than are in the books, though I think that would be really overly evil on Brandon's part.

As for stances being based off Radiant Orders: possibly, but not necessarily. Note how Smokestance requires two weapons. Unless spren can manifest in two points at once, a Radiant can only have one blade. And Smokestance is meant for inferior weapons, when any Radiant should have the best possible weapon, a Shardblade.

Oh, and to compound things further, here's Adolin's chapter heading.

http://coppermind.net/w/images/Adolin_Chapters.svg

What stance is this?

[TheArcanist]

That chapter heading resembles the third portion of the scroll, in my opinion. The main difference though, is that the point is tilting upwards instead of downwards, but that could be the "ready" position of that stance as opposed to the "parry/block" exhibited in the scroll. I suppose the big question here is what style of swordplay did Brandon base these stances off of- Kendo, the German/Italian Longsword schools, or some other method. I'm seeing influences from all over the place, but similar motions and actions are used in totally different ways from practice to practice. In order to fully decode the stances, we need to know in what context to think of them.

[PorridgeBrick]

They likely do come from all over. It's a different world from Earth, so Sanderson would likely avoid taking from just one culture.

So in those German/Italian manuals, you said that #1 isn't a very useful stance, right? Kendo, though, uses it a lot. So it's probably from the Kendo usage rather than the European.

#2 and #4 probably aren't from the fencing manuals, either, since you described them as hybrids of three stances there. I'm not sure what school it would be from then. #4 looks like something you'd do with greatswords, which are older than fencing, right?

#3,5, and 7 are probably from those manuals like you say though. They certainly look exactly like typical European style fighting, though you're the expert here.

Oh, and I found Flamestance irl from a google search for sword stances. It says it's from a Korean martial art called Kuk Sool Won.

Edit: Just remembered that Brandon was a missionary in Seoul. This could very well be his inspiration for Flamestance. Too bad nothing online will actually say what the stance is used for.

Edited March 15, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Ailessar]

Great catch, PorridgeBrick!  You rock!  So Alethi martial arts could  be partially based on Kuk Sool Won!

 

 

 

As for stances being based off Radiant Orders: possibly, but not necessarily. Note how Smokestance requires two weapons. Unless spren can manifest in two points at once, a Radiant can only have one blade. And Smokestance is meant for inferior weapons, when any Radiant should have the best possible weapon, a Shardblade.

 

Good point.

 

Have you found any other similar stances?   I found these.

 

Similar to Smokestance, with it’s sword-and-knife form:

 http://www.northwestkuksoolwon.com/DuelingSwords.gif

 

I spy Vinestance and Stonestance here (second and fourth from left):  

http://kuksoolny.com/images/5blackbelts-weapons-park.jpg

 

Stonestance in this defensive posture (ground swordsman, left).  Hehe, his purpose seems to be to serve as a (stone) ladder for his partner as well as defense:

http://www.kuksoolwonuiuc.com/images/kuksanim/swd4.JPG

 

And the ground swordsman seems to be moving from the Vinestance?  Which goes with what Rust and Ruin and Arcanist has said:

http://kuksoolwonofpacifica.com/images/grandMasterSword1.jpg

 

 

I couldn’t help noting these for # 1 (I won’t call it Windstance, since I could be wrong).  Notice how much time the guy spends in the air with this stance?

http://www.stpaulksw.com/blog/wp-content/images/weapons/kwan-jang-nim-fan-techniques.jpg

http://kswgarland.com/wp-content/gallery/action/kuksanimsword-pic.jpg?9d7bd4

http://www.kuksoolwonuiuc.com/images/kuksanim/swd1.JPG

http://kuksoolwonofpacifica.com/images/grandMasterSword1.jpg

http://www.stpaulksw.com/images/whatIsKukSool/weapons.jpg

 

And Kuk Sool Won seems to cover a wide range of weapons, including sword, knives, short staffs, longstaffs, spears and bows!  Kaladin may well be doing Kuk Sool Won spear forms.

 

http://www.stpaulksw.com/blog/31/kuk-sool-won-weapons-complete-with-pictures/

 

Although you guys are probably right in that Brandon has used many different influences, including Kendo, German and Italian longsword schools, and now, Kuk Sool Won. 

 

I’m going to ask Brandon about Kuk Sool Won, though.  It’s so very likely he has seen it in Korea, right?  How long did he stay there? 

 

Thanks Arcanist for that visual description of the scroll! It’s supposed to be really quick, isn’t it? I mean, the opponent is dead in three moves. I love it when fight scenes come alive in my mind. And I think I’ve seen those moves somewhere on YouTube, I’ve been looking for it but it was too long ago to be in my history any more.

 

I’ll update the first post by adding these possible martial arts influences.  The first post is getting really long, so I’ll probably change it by linking to quotes and other images rather than displaying them there.  

Edited March 15, 2014 by Aile

[TheArcanist]

Yes, the fight was very quick- most fights actually are. It's usually only in movies, TV, or books that they last for any real length of time unless the combatants are actually quite skilled, or they don't really know anything which makes it last a similar period of time. The duel on the scroll could've lasted longer, but the Right-Hand Warrior made the huge mistake of getting impatient. He tried to lure the Left-Hand Warrior into attacking by making an "opening", then got impatient and tried to attack. The Right-Hand Warrior tried to use the lightning-fast Smokestance to get in quick and end the fight, but the Left-Hand Warrior easily overpowered him with his two-handed block, and he tried to push his assault instead of stepping back and changing his stance.

 

@PorridgeBlack: The stances were used for longswords, actually, though Shardblades are roughly the length of a greatsword. However, that doesn't really matter because they're remarkably light and Shardplate makes them essentially weightless. "Fencing" normally evokes the use of a rapier [A "musketeer" sword], but is the technical term for organized European-based sword-focused martial arts. The German/Italian schools predate what most people think of as fencing by a couple hundred years.

 

Here're some videos I found of people sparring in each of the martial arts we're looking at as inspiration. Tell me what you think and what you see.

 Kendo 

 Sabre Fencing 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGearEu2PlU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl1IKRk_hXM

 Kuk Sool Won 

 German/Italian Longsword

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E183mRiml7E  

 

 

And this is the free ebook I got which goes through the basics of the German/Italian techniques: http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/support-files/trueswordsman.pdf

[adbf]

adbf, do you mean these two stances?  So the blade on the left is facing the right, not left?

 

 

 

The reason I think # 1  seems to be good match for Windstance is in the description itself. "Adolin used Windstance, turned sideways slightly, hands before him and elbows bent, Shardblade pointing back over his head."   I may be wrong, but it’s the only one that has the hands before him, and not to the side of the head, and where the Shardblade is pointing back over his head.  (For that reason, I’m removing # 9 from Windstance, since the hands are beside his head, as in Ironstance).

 

And in #1 the hands are not exactly before, but above him. And yes, the more I’m looking at #4 and the stance in the scroll, the more different I see them.

The position of the edge was the most telling. But look how high is the right elbow of the scroll fighter. (Exactly like the elbows in #2). So he would have quite a poor freedom of movement in the arms. However his arms are two levers, allowing him lot of strength to push forward. And actually he is not in the position to push in any other direction save forward. He is braced to receive an attack and he can fight for his blade to not be deflected by the enemy’s strike. Next - the footing of the left man from the scroll, especially where is his left (opponentward) knee facing. Right toward the opponent. This means straightening his left (forward) leg will lead him to step right toward the opponent. In the scroll the shardbearer is excellently prepared for exactly what he does next - that is smashing right through his opponent’s attack into a powerful straightforward counterattack.

#4 is something quite different. His left knee is not towards the opponent, actually it points quite aside of the opponent, toward the artist. This position of the knee will not let him step toward the opponent (I have pains in the knee only imagining such a step, and what my fencing coach from before many ears would shout me for such a knee, I really don’t like even to begin contemplating). But he has excellent footing to step sideways in both directions. Something that he would need, only if his intentions are to move not linearly, but to torn round. What turning goes together with focusing on sweeping.

The right elbow of #4 allows him freedom of movement. His blade will be easier deflected by a defense, unlike with the scroll man. But from my rapier fencing experience, when your blade is deflected, often it’s best not to struggle, but to return as soon as possible to the stance and start something new, preferably using the momentum of your weapon being deflected.

Next, looking at the legs and arms in the stance, one can imagine them as wound up springs. And if what is bent in knees and arms gets released, i.e. if he just straightens his arms I’ll look where it will get his blade, and if he straightens his forward leg pumping with his back leg, I’ll look where his step will lead. For the man from the scroll it will be a linear movement forward and a powerful straight push. For #4 it will be circular movement both in legs and arms.

So, whatever the Ironstance is, but the left man on the scroll looks using the stance#2. And whatever the Windstance is, but #4 is devised for flanking movements and wide sweeping. (and having in mind that a Windrunner is supposed to land right between the enemies, and that Windstance is best when the swordsman is surrounded…)

[Mailliw73]

Aile, this is great! You referenced my topic where I thought the stances were for a specific Order. I've changed my opinion now. I believe they were based on the Essences, though I think it's possible that the stances favored each order's surges. I think the picture with the sword overhead could be eyestance(since I don't know what to call it) because it thrusts towards the eyes. Kinda gruesome, but the first thing I pictured.

[PorridgeBrick]

I'm more inclined to think it will be called Brightstance/Lightstance. According to my google powers, Lucentia is a nominative neuter plural of a participle of the latin verb luceo, or 'I shine' (God, that sounds complex: so glad I never took Latin).

As for possible names of the rest, I'm thinking Bloodstance, Oilstance, and... Meatstance? Butcherstance? What the heck could this one be?

[name_here]

#4 looks like a pretty good fit for ironstance. It puts the blade up beside the head and in a reasonable position for fast but powerful chops. I'm not too happy with assigning #1 to any of the stances so far; it looks like a position for a strong downward chop to smash straight through Shardplate, but not exceptionally fast or well-positioned for parrying, so not a good fit for ironstance. Maybe it's a utilitarian stance in kendo, but even with their relative lightness and plate-enhanced strength shardblades are pretty clumsy. I'd put #2 in for Windstance, it's got the sword pointing back, the hands forwards, slightly turned, and reasonably well positioned for sweeping instead of a downwards chop. Stonestance, Flamestance, and Vinestance all look good as they are, though.

[Inkthinker]

Whoooo... I can tell you all the answers, but y'all are having too much fun. Let me know when you guys settle on guesses.

I will say, don't get too hung up on matching the "intended" use of a stance (as described in the book) with the actual, practical uses of a stance (as seen in real-world context). They may not match up well, and Brandon is not an SCA or RMA swordsman.

 

But I did get all my references for the stances directly from Brandon, so he's using them as he sees fit, and I matched up the sketches as instructed. You should be able to figure out most of them through context.