Szeth-son-son-Vallano

[Necromancer he/him]

Is Szeth a coward or the most honorable man on Roshar? I think Kaladin didn't have the full picture when calling him a coward. Szeth feels the agony of every kill he has done, proven by his madman eyes and clenched teeth as well as his conversation with Dalanar. Yet, he goes on and kills because that is what he is told to do. Personally I think Szeth is as far from a coward as possible.

[Gloom he/him]

I don't believe Szeth is a coward, but I do think that the accusation that Szeth is a coward will have a large impact on his personality going forward. I believe what Szeth is, is lawful to a fault.

[Cracknut he/him]

On the other hand Nin is a coward =))

[cybera]

He's not a coward,but he is not brave either. It doesnt take a coward to follow orders, but it takes a brave person to disobey them. Him being lawful to the point he is might be whats preventing him of being brave and sticking up for what he believes in.

[Cracknut he/him]

He's not a coward,but he is not brave either. It doesnt take a coward to follow orders, but it takes a brave person to disobey them. Him being lawful to the point he is might be whats preventing him of being brave and sticking up for what he believes in.

 

He did break and betray Taln just like other 8 Heralds and gave up on Oathpact. Shouldn't Herald know better than kill Surgebinders to stop Voidbringers? And what about him telling himself that he's doing it in the name of justice? He just couldn't face what he did and made himself believe he's doing the right thing again. Thing is, he's taking easy path there and that's exactly how a coward would act.

[Shards of Mist he/him]

Is Szeth a coward or the most honorable man on Roshar? I think Kaladin didn't have the full picture when calling him a coward. Szeth feels the agony of every kill he has done, proven by his madman eyes and clenched teeth as well as his conversation with Dalanar. Yet, he goes on and kills because that is what he is told to do. Personally I think Szeth is as far from a coward as possible.

 

Feeling the agony of his kills doesn't make Szeth honorable.  It just means he's not a psychopath.  His POVs show us his internal conflict with the wrongness of his actions.  He still hides behind his orders to commit them anyway.  I think Kaladin was 100% correct in his assessment.  Szeth is a coward.  

[Raevun he/him]

I'd say it's more honour than bravery or cowardice. It's certainly not justice that he follows, or not a sane justice at least. He's bound by his oaths, hence the Oathstone, and I'd say that binding is due to honour. If he followed justice he wouldn't kill innocents. If he was a coward he would have left his conflicts and became a rock collector or something, not consciously choose to increase his insanity through doing things he hates and believes are wrong. And as said above, if he was brave (or a man of justice) he would have disobeyed orders he felt were wrong. He would have stuck by his convictions of the voidbringers returning, or would have questioned his masters. Instead, he blindly followed precepts, as his honour would dictate. 

 

Regardless, Sanderson seems to want to make him a force of justice, so that is where he is headed. Misguided justice, no doubt. 

[Cracknut he/him]

He sees it as his punishment and he takes it even though he doesn't likes doing it and sees its wrongness. He believes he deserves it. I believe if Szeth had been one of Heralds he wouldn't back down from Oathpact. Why? Because his convictions are so strong that he can withstand going against them, while Heralds gave up what they were because couldn't face pain. I'm sorry but I don't have anything good to say to 9 Heralds who betrayed Oathpact. Taln was going through same exact thing with them all those times between Desolations but he was going to go through it all as he died in fight giving it all he had because he wasn't giving up at least just yet. So yeah, for me Taln > all other heralds combined and Taln wouldn't be able to bear what Szeth went through. If Szeth ever gets better, he will stand above all heralds in my eyes.

[Raevun he/him]

...Taln wouldn't be able to bear what Szeth went through. 

Taln went to a literal hell for over 4000 years. He made it back, and is still in shape to stop blowdarts in a casual manner. I'm fairly sure he can endure anything.

Szeth was on breaking point after a few years of slavery. One aspect of this slavery being that he must be the most powerful man (who was actively doing things in the plot) on the planet. 

Respect the Stonesinew, man. When his mind is fixed (which I'm guessing the Progression surge will have a hand in), he's going to be a big player to say the least. 

[Cracknut he/him]

Taln went to a literal hell for over 4000 years. He made it back, and is still in shape to stop blowdarts in a casual manner. I'm fairly sure he can endure anything.

Szeth was on breaking point after a few years of slavery. One aspect of this slavery being that he must be the most powerful man (who was actively doing things in the plot) on the planet. 

Respect the Stonesinew, man. When his mind is fixed (which I'm guessing the Progression surge will have a hand in), he's going to be a big player to say the least. 

Would Stonesinew be able to bear giving up Oathpact? Would he bear killing innocents, doing all the stuff his honor and judgment deemed wrong? As I said he's best Herald out there and that blowdart scene was sick but Szeth will be at least closest to something like Taln if he ever gets better. 

EDIT:

I'm not saying Szeth went through it all without breaking. He's insane at this point and he doing some wrong choices but he's one of main characters and he's getting his own book, so there's a chance that he'll get on the right path and recover and after that he'll achieve what no other Herald could. I don't and can't know how Stonesinew would fare if he gave up on Oathpact but we've seen what one of those 9 has become, and its apparent for me that he wasn't able to recover even after 4500 years and I doubt others are in better shape. So yeah, there's a chance for Szeth to turn out something as good if not better than Taln imo.

Edited March 10, 2014 by 213

[ViZet he/him]

By the way, can anyone clarify a thing for me?

Szeth refuses to be called "son-Neturo", as he does not want his father to be "applied" to his sin. Vallano, as I understand, is Szeth's grandfather - and his name is fine here. Is Vallano somehow connected with Szeth's "crime" or is grandfather just considered to be too distand for not to be stained by descendant's sins?

[Caidhe he/him]

It may simply be that his father is still alive and his grandfather is dead.

[Xavien]

Is Szeth a coward? Absolutely.

 

First he refuses to stand up for his convictions that the voidbringers have returned. Then add doing things he knows to be wrong as a form of punishment, because you know, others should pay for his mistakes. People may call that honor but it is also cowardice when you use it as a shield to hide behind doing things you absolutely know to be wrong.

 

Tack on blaming his victims for not being able to kill him so he can justify murdering them to himself. Whats that the mark of? A coward.

 

When he knew that the Radiants had returned he let Taravangian talk him out of it. Why? He said it himself, "It would mean he had killed for no reason." (~page 709) Reread his interaction with Taravangian (~page 910-912) He wanted to be convinced he hadn't met a Radiant. He learned the Emperor was dead and instead of taking responsibility for his actions he convinced himself the Emperor was still alive so he didn't have to. Why? Because he's a coward.

 

At the very end when he fought Kaladin and there was no way for him to hide behind his self justifying lies any longer did he surrender? Did he turn himself in? No, he nodded when Kaladin called him a coward and then let Kal kill him so he wouldn't have to live with what he had done.

 

And once he was brought back? "He immediately squeezed (his eyes) closed again. 'No. I died. I died!'" & "I don't want to study, I want to be dead." (~page 1062-1063) Death was preferable to facing the knowledge of what he had done.

 

It will be interesting in book 3 to see if he faces up to his past actions or he continues to be a coward and hides behind the vengeance and being "reborn" that Nin/Nalan offers him.

 

*Page numbers are approximate, I'm using Kindle for PC to get the quotes so they might be off by a page or 2

 

Edit: line breaks didn't go through

Edited March 10, 2014 by Xavien

[Edgedancer he/him]

Szeth was aware that what he did was wrong. He is a bit like the villagers from Wit´s story in WoK, with just one difference. He never belived that there was some kind of "king" that had all the blame. Yes, he blames both his master and his victims but he knows that he isn´t absolved from his crimes. What excuse does Szeth have?

He dosen´t think he is doing the right thing.

He dosen´t think that it isn´t his responsibility.

He dosen´t think it is a necessary evil, as for example Mr. T. views his own actions.

He dosen´t think that it is okay to kill his victims in any way.

He dosen´t even take some kind of pleasure in it.

What is left? The Stoneshamans told him to do it. That is all. He is dedicated to his doctrin beyond insanity, but that dosen´t make it the right thing. There is some kind of twisted strenght here and I´m not certain if coward is the right word for him, nonetheless what he did was wrong and can not be justified. Given that he did it for his own religion and can not stand the possibility of all he did being wrong, see him fleeing from Kaladin, one could call his actions selfish in the same twisted way one could call them strong. All in all I think this makes Szeth  a villain, that manages to be both tragic and repulsive at the same time.

The fact that this whole time he was right and with that his "punishment" entierly pointless just makes this all around worse. Think about it, if he had some confidence in himself he could have been one of the greates heroes in this story, instead he became a monster.

 

Taln on the other hand upholds the othpact on his own and went through over 4500 of what was literally his personal hell. Why did he go through all of this? Because he wants to save people. Don´t belive me? Just look at what he did in his broken state of mind: He apologizes for not being able to stop the desolation on his own, tries to prepare humaity, although with what little sanity he has left he is not very effective at this, and saves some, for him, random guy. 

[Caidhe he/him]

I really like Xavien's explanation. The fact that he didn't PERSIST in his questions after he started to have doubts is really a huge failing.

[straits]

I agree with edgedancer. I think Szeth's inability to gauge whether his sense of honour, duty and dedication are worth the lives of innocents is what damns him.

Edited March 10, 2014 by straits

[Bloodless]

I think he is one of the most honourable men in Roshar. As Naln said, he follows his personal code (misguided as it is) not matter the cost. There was nothing at all besides his sense of honour, that made him do the horrible things he did. He hated them, it slowly drove him crazy, but he never stopped broke his code, even if it broke him at the end. By being truthless, he lost everything he had but his honour. So he was trying to protect it at all times.

 

Also remember that Szeth knows that all the sins he does will come back to him someday. "I know my sins, I will someday drown in them".  In his mind, his choices are protect his honour and face damnation, or give up his honour and escape. But he never escapes. Imagine if one day you run over a guy and he dies. The court orders you to stay in prison for life, being beaten every day. But the prison has no walls, no guards. You could just get up and leave. Think what kind of courage it takes to stay in the prison, without hope, knowing things will only get worse day by day... You could just leave, but everybody tells you 'You are a sinner, you deserve this.'. Who are you to judge? After all you are a murderer. That is the hell Szeth lives in.

 

I think there is much in common between he and Taln. Both had to suffer living hell, but both did not waver in their oaths, both protected their honour, but in the end both lost their minds because of that. Kaladin thinks he has suffered a lot, and he thinks that since he kept his morality, he could judge others. But his suffering is nothing compared to Szeth, he always had parents who loved him, he had Syl, he had friends. Szeth has nobody. So he has no right to judge Szeth as a coward. Hell, he doesn't know anything at all about Szeth. He just yells out 'coward' randomly.

[Pathfinder]

I think he is one of the most honourable men in Roshar. As Naln said, he follows his personal code (misguided as it is) not matter the cost. There was nothing at all besides his sense of honour, that made him do the horrible things he did. He hated them, it slowly drove him crazy, but he never stopped broke his code, even if it broke him at the end. By being truthless, he lost everything he had but his honour. So he was trying to protect it at all times.

 

Also remember that Szeth knows that all the sins he does will come back to him someday. "I know my sins, I will someday drown in them".  In his mind, his choices are protect his honour and face damnation, or give up his honour and escape. But he never escapes. Imagine if one day you run over a guy and he dies. The court orders you to stay in prison for life, being beaten every day. But the prison has no walls, no guards. You could just get up and leave. Think what kind of courage it takes to stay in the prison, without hope, knowing things will only get worse day by day... You could just leave, but everybody tells you 'You are a sinner, you deserve this.'. Who are you to judge? After all you are a murderer. That is the hell Szeth lives in.

 

I think there is much in common between he and Taln. Both had to suffer living hell, but both did not waver in their oaths, both protected their honour, but in the end both lost their minds because of that. Kaladin thinks he has suffered a lot, and he thinks that since he kept his morality, he could judge others. But his suffering is nothing compared to Szeth, he always had parents who loved him, he had Syl, he had friends. Szeth has nobody. So he has no right to judge Szeth as a coward. Hell, he doesn't know anything at all about Szeth. He just yells out 'coward' randomly.

 

I disagreed. Kaladin nearly committed suicide, and all the bridgemen gave up to a life of hell everyday for their crimes. It is easy to say "Hey everything is horrible, and always will be. All I can do is repeat the same thing again and again". What is hard is breaking out of that cycle and change like Kaladin did. Tie a baby elephant to a stake, and years later even when it is massive, it will still think the stake has a hold over it. Again that is not honor, nor courage, that is just acceptance of "ah well that is how it is". People will accept torture, pain, and agony because it is familiar over the unknown chance of change. For many it is better to feel hopeless, than to hope and have that hope crushed. Szeth in my opinion took the easy way out, he gave in to his madness, surrendered to a law he knew was wrong, and excused himself from his actions because of a possibility of punishment in the future. It is not honorable to say that it is ok that I kill 10 innocent because one day when I am caught and stopped, I will get the electric chair. 

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[Necromancer he/him]

 He still hides behind his orders to commit them anyway.  

You say this as if he wants to kill people and uses the orders as an excuse. He doesn't want to, but does it regardless. He doesn't hide behind orders, they are everything to him. Not just some weak excuse.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

When there is nothing controlling your physical or mental actions but you still murder people, you are either completely immoral, a psychopath, or a complete coward. It looks like Szeth understands morality just fine, so I'd say it is one of the other two, and I'm leaning heavily toward coward.

[Pathfinder]

You say this as if he wants to kill people and uses the orders as an excuse. He doesn't want to, but does it regardless. He doesn't hide behind orders, they are everything to him. Not just some weak excuse.

It doesn't matter whether he wants to or not. If a bully intimidates kidA to beat up kidB, is it honorable because deep down kidA doesn't want to? What matters is he does it anyway. He can feel horrible, and think in his head "well the teacher is going to catch me and stop me from hurting him too badly, and I am going to get detention, so I will get what I deserve" doesn't change that he still gave up his own will to someone else's authority. That he didn't challenge that authority that he inherently knew was wrong, and took the cowards way out. He did it cause he was "told to".

[Moogle]

That he didn't challenge that authority that he inherently knew was wrong

 

When did Szeth ever think that the Stone Shamans were wrong? I must have missed that, because I'm pretty sure he only came to the conclusion that they were wrong when he fought Kaladin for the second time. Szeth was told he was a liar and was punished for fundamentally betraying the Shin, and accepted that they were right and he was wrong until given proof otherwise.

 

Szeth believed in the ideals of the Shin and held to them even despite terrible pain. Certainly he is somewhat cowardly in refusing to accept things when fighting Kaladin the first time (though I'd argue he was insane at the time so he gets some slack), but I find it difficult to say he is not one of the most honorable people in the series. He held to the laws of his people despite how much pain it caused him. In a way, he's the most self-sacrificing character in Stormlight.

 

Certainly I find him to be a disgusting person with values fundamentally different than mine, but he does have his virtues. He'll make a great Skybreaker as he searches for some sort of redemption, I'm sure.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

When did Szeth ever think that the Stone Shamans were wrong? I must have missed that, because I'm pretty sure he only came to the conclusion that they were wrong when he fought Kaladin for the second time. Szeth was told he was a liar and was punished for fundamentally betraying the Shin, and accepted that they were right and he was wrong until given proof otherwise.

 

Szeth believed in the ideals of the Shin and held to them even despite terrible pain. Certainly he is somewhat cowardly in refusing to accept things when fighting Kaladin the first time (though I'd argue he was insane at the time so he gets some slack), but I find it difficult to not say he is one of the most honorable people in the series. He held to the laws of his people despite how much pain it caused him. In a way, he's the most self-sacrificing character in Stormlight.

 

So the causal chain I see goes like this. He states radiants are returning, Stone Shamans say no he is wrong. They make him truthless which exiles him from their land. I believe all warriors from that land have oath stones, but I digress. His oathstone finds its way into the hands of individuals that order him to kill innocent people. He knows killing innocent people is wrong, but he does it because the individuals have his oathstone, because the Shin cast him out as Truthless because they stated he was wrong about the return of the Radiants. Szeth goes insane at the thought that the Radiants have in fact returned, because then he would not have been cast out, thereby not have gotten his oath stone in the hands of the individuals who then ordered him to kill people against what he knew in his heart to be wrong. I believe, (not to put words in your mouth Moogle), you thought I meant he knew the Stone Shamans were wrong about the Radiants in his heart. I mean he knew it was wrong to kill these people despite the law system of his people set up indirectly ordering him to do so.  

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Edited April 29, 2014 by P4thf1nd3r

[Aether he/him]

I wonder how the rest of the Stormlight-crew will react if Szeth actually ends up bonding a Skybreaker-spren (have those been confirmed to be Highspren?). "Hey, yeah, I know I've tried to kill you guys, and I've massacred all over Roshar, but I... um... am supposed to help you rebuild the Knights Radiant."

[Moogle]

I mean knew it was wrong to kill these people despite the law system of his people set up indirectly ordering him to do so. 

 

Okay, I misinterpreted you before. We're in agreement: Szeth is a horrible person.

 

How does this mean he's not honorable? He swore to obey the commands of whoever held his oathstone, and he did that despite all the pain it caused him. Most times he killed, he did it in a fair fight after giving warning he was coming through his white clothing. All this sets off alarm bells in my head signifying he's honorable.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Moogle