Focuses: What Are They?

[Moogle]

Each planet seems to have a 'focus', something that Investiture likes to stick to or go through.

• Roshar has gemstones (which are infused with Investiture every highstorm).
• Scadrial has metal (which can be infused with Investiture through the mists, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy).
• Nalthis has life (probably?) (which can be infused with Investiture through Breath). Note that even 'unliving things' can be given Breath, though it is abnormal and results in life. Quite odd.
• Sel has... shapes (?). It could be that Elantrians act as Sel's focus, as they're the only things I can think of with constant Investiture running through them.

Current speculation is, I believe, that Shards are blind to the focuses, though whether or not that's limited to their world is uncertain. It may be that Shards are blinded to Investiture itself, though that is hard to say. This theory is actually hilarious in relation to Endowment on Nalthis; she can't see any living creature! It's possible I've got his/her focus wrong, though.

 

So... the question is, why? Why are focuses different for each planet? Are they different for each planet, or do Shards each have their own focuses?

 

Why are Shards blind to them? (I have a theory on this actually: Shards sense things by sending out waves of Investiture like radio waves. Evidence: the mist spirit that Vin can hear with bronze. Focuses act to absorb and retransmit these waves of Investiture in an incredibly focused manner, and this burst of Investiture causes Shards to see focuses as bright, blinding light.)

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Nalthis' Focus is the Commands. While life can hold Investiture, I don't think you could really call it a focus. It's more a reservoir. A focus should be something that specifically takes Investiture and focuses it into a magical effect: so the Commands take Breath and focus/filter it into the desired action on the part of the Awakened object, the metals focus the energy from Preservation into a different allomantic ability, etc. Of course, the two can overlap: metals are focuses for Allomancers, but can also be reservoirs of the mists: and gems are focuses for Soulcasters, but also reservoirs of Stormlight.

As for Sel's focus, I'm inclined to think of it as the land itself. That's why everywhere has different magics, and why all the symbols used are actually little models mimicking the form of the land.

[Moogle]

Nalthis' Focus is the Commands. While life can hold Investiture, I don't think you could really call it a focus. It's more a reservoir. A focus should be something that specifically takes Investiture and focuses it into a magical effect: so the Commands take Breath and focus/filter it into the desired action on the part of the Awakened object, the metals focus the energy from Preservation into a different allomantic ability, etc. Of course, the two can overlap: metals are focuses for Allomancers, but can also be reservoirs of the mists: and gems are focuses for Soulcasters, but also reservoirs of Stormlight.

As for Sel's focus, I'm inclined to think of it as the land itself. That's why everywhere has different magics, and why all the symbols used are actually little models mimicking the form of the land.

 

It seems we require an agreed-upon definition of a focus. I think yours confuses the issue slightly, though it may be correct. I propose the following:

 

Focus: Something that holds Investiture on the planet. Blinds any Shard (probably) Invested in the planet. Examples: metal, gems, life (?).

Filter: Something that specifically takes Investiture and turns it into a magical effect. Examples: Commands, structure of metals, spren/forms on Roshar (?), shapes on Sel.

 

I am using these definitions because I think that focuses should blind Shards and act to 'focus' Investiture and keep it one place.

 

Also, the land being filled with Investiture on Sel is interesting. Do you think Devotion and Dominion were completely incapable of seeing the entirety of the planet?

 

Do we have any WoB's involving "focuses"? I'll go search.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I thought we had a WoB that the focus of awakening was the command? So we would have:

 

Planet        Focus              Fuel

Roshar       Gemstone        Stormlight

Scadrial      Metal                Mists

Nalthis        Command         Color

Sel   I haven’t read Elantris, so I’m not sure about these

 

Looking at this doesn't the focus of Nalthis seem off? I think we might need a three part system to account for the three realms. So instead we might have:

 

Planet       Focus                        Intent                       Fuel

Roshar      Gemstone                   Cut and Setting        Stormlight

Scadrial     Metal                          Burn                         Mists

Nalthis       Spoken Command       Visualization             Color

Sel     I haven’t read Elantris, so I’m not sure about these

 

This would give a physical focus that is shaped by a cognitive intent and fueled by something infused with spiritual energy.  

 

Edit: stupid tables don't post.

Edited February 12, 2014 by QuantumHarmonix

[Moogle]

I thought we had a WoB that the focus of awakening was the command?

 

Not so far as I can find. I can't even find a definition of focus (beyond one referring to body focuses). I could be wrong. You may be interested in this, though:

 

Kurkistan

BioChroma:

Do Breaths inherently possess the ability to interpret and carry out commands, or does the Awakener need to impart that decision making ability on Awakened objects?

If the Awakener does need to impart the decision-making ability, then does Awakening consist of an Awakener copying a portion of his/her Cognitive aspect (as determined by his/her visualization and verbal Command) onto the Cognitive aspect of the object being Awakened, with Breath then providing the "juice" for the object to actually follow its Command: powering both physical motion and "cogitation" based upon the copied Cognitive aspect?

-If so, is that copying what drains color?

Brandon Sanderson

You're very close here.

 

As to your suggestion of a "fuel source" being required, I am doubtful. Investiture seems to be the common fuel source to every magic. The AonDor of Elantris runs on the Dor, which seems to just be unbound Investiture. Surgebinding uses Stormlight (also Investiture), and Awakening uses Breath (also Investiture). Breath doesn't run out, though. It's not fuel in that sense. I believe the color is not used as 'fuel', either, and is just a side-effect of Awakening. You do need color to Awaken, though, so hmm. Perhaps every system does need something expendable... though the Dor really doesn't, necessarily. Feruchemy takes no fuel, too.

 

I also have issues with "mist" acting as fuel for Allomancy. I could swear Allomancy-users don't run off of Preservation at all, unless they're using the mists or lerasium directly.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[WeiryWriter he/him]

A couple notes:

 

Commands are the focus for Awakening, there is WoB for this.  I will try to find it.

 

Gemstones being the/a focus on Roshar has been RAFO'd

 

Commands do not need to be spoken aloud to work, the 10th Heightening grants Metal Commands. (that's how the God Kings passed on their breath to their successor despite not having tongues)

 

Metals and Aons (which are the foci for AonDor) are Physical foci, Commands are a Cognitive focus.

 

We don't have a definition for what a focus is, that question is an automatic RAFO. (Personally I view foci as the thing that shapes how investiture manifests)

 

A personal theory of mine is that Roshar's focus is possibly Spiritual in nature.

 

Edit: Also this thread might be of interest.

Edited February 12, 2014 by WeiryWriter

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

We have a WoB that Awakening's focus is the Commands. Since the idea that the Commands are holders for Investiture seems kinda off, I think your definition isn't really right.

Now, I think there are actually three terms we should define here.

Reservoir/Holder: whatever contains Investiture while it is in the Physical Realm. Includes Nalthisian life, gems, metals, surgebinders.

Focus: Whatever focuses the investiture into performing a specific effect. Likely has something to do with Forms. Includes Nalthisian commands, Rosharan Spren(?), gems for Soulcasting surge, metals, geography on Sel.

Gateway: The window through which the Investiture in the Spiritual can flow into the Physical. May be synonymous with focus. Includes Selian geographic symbols, metals, and gems.

In this light, then essentially your theory is stating that Shards are blind to their reservoirs. However, I think Selian geography is the focus, not the reservoir, so the 2D's would still be able to see the land.

[Moogle]

 

Commands are the focus for Awakening, there is WoB for this.  I will try to find it.

 

I'd like that! I don't think we're disagreeing when we're saying that the Commands act as a way to filter Investiture into doing useful things, I'm just curious if Brandon has ever specifically said that Commands are 'focuses'.

 

We don't have a definition for what a focus is, that question is an automatic RAFO. (Personally I view foci as the thing that shapes how investiture manifests)

 

Okay, so what's the word to use when we're talking about things that Investiture likes to stick to? Metals on Scadrial, gemstones on Roshar, life on Nalthis (Breath sticks easily to once-living things). Porridge suggested reservoir, but it doesn't seem right to me. Anything can be a 'reservoir'. Shardplate is Invested, for example, and so is Nightblood. The word should signify that Investiture sticks very easily to a material like gems.

 

Is it the focus (as you define it) or the reservoir that blinds Shards? Or is Scadrial unique in that regard?

 

Metals and Aons (which are the foci for AonDor) are Physical foci, Commands are a Cognitive focus.

 

Do you have a WoB for this? I'd like to see if Brandon ever actually called something a foci/focus.

 

I just have this sneaking suspicion that every planet will have something Physical that Investiture likes to stick to. I'm curious about what it is on Sel.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Iarvos]

Its worth noting that Stormlight isn't specifically a "fuel" for Surge Binding on Roshar, but somewhat more similar to Breaths on Nalthis. Why do I say this? Because Kaladin can take the Storm-light back up after infusing with it.  To me, this means that gems are only special because they retain Stormlight for longer than say a rock - and they pick up stormlight during storms. A non-infused gem though isn't of any more use than a rock, so I would doubt that any of the shards would be blind to it. 

 

Of course, Preservation and Ruin were blind to all metals, not just Allomantic metals, so this line of reasoning isn't necessarily the soundest. 

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I'd like that! I don't think we're disagreeing when we're saying that the Commands act as a way to filter Investiture into doing useful things, I'm just curious if Brandon has ever specifically said that Commands are 'focuses'.

 

 

Okay, so what's the word to use when we're talking about things that Investiture likes to stick to? Metals on Scadrial, gemstones on Roshar, life on Nalthis (Breath sticks easily to once-living things). Porridge suggested reservoir, but it doesn't seem right to me. Anything can be a 'reservoir'. Shardplate is Invested, for example, and so is Nightblood. The word should signify that Investiture sticks very easily to a material like gems.

 

Is it the focus (as you define it) or the reservoir that blinds Shards? Or is Scadrial unique in that regard?

 

 

Do you have a WoB for this? I'd like to see if Brandon ever actually called something a foci/focus.

 

I just have this sneaking suspicion that every planet will have something Physical that Investiture likes to stick to. I'm curious about what it is on Sel.

I've been looking and so far all I've found is this:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/590-the-three-parts-of-magic/?p=10413

Where Chaos says that Brandon explicitly told him the focuses in Awakening were the Commands.

 

Edit:

And now I found this:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1037

QUESTION

What is the definition of a focus (in The Way of Kings' Ars Arcanum)?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Foci, though linked to the magic system, are more like artifacts of the philosophy surrounding the magic system. A focus is a philosophical concept, rather than a hardfast rule related to the magic system. A man-made, artificial way of explaining the magic system. Like the periodic table.

 

So, I'm now more confused than ever.

Edited February 12, 2014 by QuantumHarmonix

[Elbereth she/her]

Do you have a WoB for this? I'd like to see if Brandon ever actually called something a foci/focus.

 

A focus. Foci is plural. (The title is wrong.)

This is an interesting thread that I don't have anything to add to at the moment.

[skaa he/him]

There is WoB that each Shardworld can influence how the Investiture of a Shard (or multiple Shards) will manifest on it, including the Focus. That probably answers Moogle's question about why each Sharworld has its own Focus.

 

As to where that WoB can be found, I'm still looking. Too bad Phantom Monstrosity the Quotemeister doesn't visit the forums anymore.

 

Edit: As to Shards being blinded by certain things, do we have other examples for this? The only instance I remember is metal on Scadrial. How about on other planets?

Edited February 12, 2014 by skaa

[Moogle]

Edit: As to Shards being blinded by certain things, do we have other examples for this? The only instance I remember is metal on Scadrial. How about on other planets?

 

The closest example we've got is the holy grotto for the Purelake on Roshar, where apparently the evil jealous god can't see them. It's... not the best evidence, but it's a nice enough theory.

 

 

I've been looking and so far all I've found is this:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/590-the-three-parts-of-magic/?p=10413

Where Chaos says that Brandon explicitly told him the focuses in Awakening were the Commands.

 

There's no audio so I can't check that. Ugh, I'm confused at this body focus stuff now.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I'd like that! I don't think we're disagreeing when we're saying that the Commands act as a way to filter Investiture into doing useful things, I'm just curious if Brandon has ever specifically said that Commands are 'focuses'.

 

 

Okay, so what's the word to use when we're talking about things that Investiture likes to stick to? Metals on Scadrial, gemstones on Roshar, life on Nalthis (Breath sticks easily to once-living things). Porridge suggested reservoir, but it doesn't seem right to me. Anything can be a 'reservoir'. Shardplate is Invested, for example, and so is Nightblood. The word should signify that Investiture sticks very easily to a material like gems.

 

Is it the focus (as you define it) or the reservoir that blinds Shards? Or is Scadrial unique in that regard?

 

 

Do you have a WoB for this? I'd like to see if Brandon ever actually called something a foci/focus.

 

I just have this sneaking suspicion that every planet will have something Physical that Investiture likes to stick to. I'm curious about what it is on Sel.

 

Yes he has.  There was an interview Chaos had with Brandon, that I am trying to find, where Brandon told Chaos all of this.  We don't have audio for it though, but since it is Chaos, I think we can trust it don't you?

 

Last summer at SpoCon Chaos and Windy and talk about foci for one of the questions in this audio.

[Moogle]

Yes he has.  There was an interview Chaos had with Brandon, that I am trying to find, where Brandon told Chaos all of this.  We don't have audio for it though, but since it is Chaos, I think we can trust it don't you?

 

I don't mean to impugn Chaos' honor, but eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable to the point where tons of innocent people are put in jail because of it. And eyewitnesses in crime cases aren't lying - they actually believe what they're saying, but human memory is just ridiculously fallible. I trust Chaos, but I don't trust human biology. I think it's most likely that Chaos is correct in this case, but I would feel much much better with actual audio.

 

 

Last summer at SpoCon Chaos and Windy and talk about foci for one of the questions in this audio.

 

Thank you for that! It was interesting hearing it all, but it just leaves me more confused on focuses (as Brandon calls them). He was hesitating on answering things because he needed a definition of what was meant by focus. Based on the examples given, I will concede though that my definition of focus above is wrong.

 

Here's a new definition (well, it's Porridge's):

 

Focus: anything responsible for filtering Investiture into useful effects. Aons for AonDor (and shapes/forms for Sel in general), metals for Allomancy (though not necessarily Hemalurgy/Feruchemy), spren (or, well, ideas/concepts/Aristotelian forms) on Roshar, and Commands on Nalthis.

 

Still need a word for reservoir, though.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Meg]

Though that quote from October 2013 is interesting I'd like to point at the AoL Ars Arcanum. Artificial or not, I'm gonna stay with the definition given there, even if it's not helpful for all of the Cosmere, but it says more or less directly that the Metal is the focus for Allomancy and Feruchemy. The AoL AA is confusing, too, I admit, as for it uses the terms "catalyst" (with reference to the metals, when used in Allomancy) as well as "key" for the form-shaped Investiture on Sel. Apparently all three terms are used kind of identically.

The TWoK AA doesn't feel helpful on this problem to me. There is only one reference to "focus" describing the Alerters. I'm not sure if we can make generalizations from this description (as to say: the focus on Roshar are the gemstones). I think we know to little at the moment. Hopefully the WoR AA will help a bit.

As a side note: At least at the moment I don't believe that "Focus" in "Body Focus" means the same "focus" we try to get a definition for here.

I think, BS loves it to throw around some terms, knowing we would try to determine each one exactly.

[Chaos he/him]

The conversation I had with Brandon about foci was a long time ago, before 17th Shard was a thing. It was before Way of Kings. And I am certain it was before it was announced AMoL would be split. So... Forgive me if we did not take as good of notes at the time. So Weiry, I doubt you will find it in the database, as it happened too long ago for us to really take good notes.

At the time, Brandon directly compared Aons, metals, and Commands, and corrected me thinking at the time that color was a focus. He corrected me and said Commands were actually the focus. There's not really anything else pertinent there, but I do very distinctly remember that part of the conversation. I believe he also RAFO'd whether Endowment was "blind" to the Commands, which was my immediate followup question.

That said, like you guys, I am also very confused on the overall role of what a focus is... But hey, Brandon made the comparison, not me Again, my apologies for no audio. We did not exactly have things to a science at that point. But trust me, if I didn't remember, I would totally say "hmmm I don't quite remember this". This part of the conversation I remember happening quite well.