Final Surge

[vikorr]

By the way Stoneward, Dalinar's vision in the released chapters may explain 'Stoneward' for you.

[TwistedMisting she/her]

Ok, slightly off topic, but I'm going on the list of orders from Coppermind as I find the picture table too confusing. here is how it's listed there:

 

1. Windrunners, Gravity and pressure

2 Skybreakers, Gravity and division

3 Dustbringers Division and friction

4 Edgedancers Friction and growth

6 Lightweavers Light and transformation

7 Elsecallers Transformation and transportation

9 Stonewards Surface tension and unknown

10 Bondsmiths  Unknown

 

So this leaves order 5 as Brightcallers? with growth and light. Presumably Ym is one of these then

Order 8  would have transportation, and could theoretically share surface tension with the Stonewards. None of this helps me figure out what the final surge is though. If I've got any of this wrong, please do tell me, I'd like to get this all pinned down properly. I'd hazard a guess at connection/joining which is a nice opposite to division, but that skirts a little too close to the pressure surge ability to stick things together.

 

I'm still missing some surges here, so someone fill me in?

Edited January 15, 2014 by TwistedMisting

[Stoneward]

By the way Stoneward, Dalinar's vision in the released chapters may explain 'Stoneward' for you.

I had read this previously and was thinking the same thing at first, but now I'm not convinced that this vision tells us anything about the last surge.

From the WoR vision:

"He and the soldiers continued their sweep, the knight at their center speaking with… nobody? She sounded like she was having a conversation, but Dalinar couldn’t see or hear anyone else with her."

This could be some kind of surge that facilitates long distance communication; but it tells us nothing about how that communication is accomplished. Also, you have to take a mightily leap to assume that the other, barely mentioned, non-Dustbringer radiant is a Stoneward or order 8.

Thing is, we've already seen this kind of having-a-conversation-with-nobody behavior from characters much closer to home. To everyone who can't see Syl, Kaladin looks like he's talking to himself all the time. It's entirely possible that this radiant is only talking to her spren.

Edit@TwistedMisting: Bondsmiths have Surface Tension and Pressure; otherwise, you're up to date.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Stoneward

[TwistedMisting she/her]

Thanks, so order 8 have the unknown surge then. And the surges come full circle so order 10 shares one with order 1.

[Shardlet he/him]

This could be some kind of surge that facilitates long distance communication; but it tells us nothing about how that communication is accomplished. Also, you have to take a mightily leap to assume that the other, barely mentioned, non-Dustbringer radiant is a Stoneward or order 8.

Thing is, we've already seen this kind of having-a-conversation-with-nobody behavior from characters much closer to home. To everyone who can't see Syl, Kaladin looks like he's talking to himself all the time. It's entirely possible that this radiant is only talking to her spren.

Edit@TwistedMisting: Bondsmiths have Surface Tension and Pressure; otherwise, you're up to date.

 

I agree that speaking to her spren is the most likely explanation for "talking to...nobody".  The more compelling quote for a communication-enabling surge is from Starfalls where the KR tells Dalinar that she's gotta go help in the town, but if more baddies turn up, just call to her and she will hear him.

 

@edit- It was my understanding that it was unclear whether Bondsmiths were 8 or 10.  Did I miss something?

[Swimmingly he/him]

I agree that speaking to her spren is the most likely explanation for "talking to...nobody".  The more compelling quote for a communication-enabling surge is from Starfalls where the KR tells Dalinar that she's gotta go help in the town, but if more baddies turn up, just call to her and she will hear him.

 

@edit- It was my understanding that it was unclear whether Bondsmiths were 8 or 10.  Did I miss something?

Possibly, the "I'll hear you" referred to her getting her spren to listen in on Dal and report what he hears.

[11thorderknight]

Possibly, the "I'll hear you" referred to her getting her spren to listen in on Dal and report what he hears.

 

This is definitely a possibility. If so, it basically throws out anything we know about the final surge.

[11thorderknight]

Right, which I don't think will hold true here. In my opinion, the name "Bondsmith" doesn't stop the stone in Stoneward from coming from the solidity of the ST surge, telling us little to nothing about the unknown surge. I do think your pattern was a clever Idea, though.

For the record, I'm willing to bet one hat eating that the last surge has nothing to do with rocks.

 

One hat eating challenge accepted!

 

Though I should clarify - I'm not saying that I think the Final Surge will literally be about manipulating stone. If anything, Surface Tension will already let them do that. I think there will be something with respect to "protecting" stone (from voidspren?) or alternatively, "protecting from stone" (i.e. thunderclasts).

[Shardlet he/him]

Possibly, the "I'll hear you" referred to her getting her spren to listen in on Dal and report what he hears.

 

That is possible.  While it would be better than nothing, it seems rather clunky to leave her spren behind and have it come back if it has info to provide.  Also the travel time would be less than desirable.

[Macen he/him]

Precognition.

You all owe me a beer if I'm right.

[Swimmingly he/him]

That is possible.  While it would be better than nothing, it seems rather clunky to leave her spren behind and have it come back if it has info to provide.  Also the travel time would be less than desirable.

The threat seemed pretty local; a spren could be assigned to scout duty and be sweeping the area. Given that the place she was going to was in earshot (screams alerted her), it's not a stretch even to assume she has her spren listening for sounds of distress while she fights.

[Shardlet he/him]

The threat seemed pretty local; a spren could be assigned to scout duty and be sweeping the area. Given that the place she was going to was in earshot (screams alerted her), it's not a stretch even to assume she has her spren listening for sounds of distress while she fights.

 

I only said the quote is compelling.  I am still inclined to think there is more to it than earshot though.

[Stoneward]

I only said the quote is compelling.  I am still inclined to think there is more to it than earshot though.

 

I find the quote compelling as well. It feels surgey, even though there are other possible explanations.

 

However, even if we knew for sure that the long distance hearing was surge related, there's still a lot we don't understand. There are many different ways you could achieve the effect of hearing someone from far away, and how you achieve the effect has massive ramifications on the rest of two Radiant orders' ability sets.

 

Some surgey examples of how she might be able to hear Dalinar (some of these have been bouncing around for a while):

• Telepathy (not very science-y, but hey)
• Enhanced hearing, Tineye style.
• Charging/changing the resonance of a small earpiece to pick up specific sound waves and magnify them, like a hearing aid
• Transporting sound waves through Shadesmar
• Some kind of spiritual bond, 

I'm sure there are others.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think that all surges are going to be external in effect rather than internal.  In other words, they manipulate the forces in the world around them rather than manipulating the surgebinder themselves.  In other words, to make a surgebinder appear strong, what actually happens is that the gravitational force affecting the thing the surgebinder is lifting is decreased or altered.  The frictional forces of the ground  or floor are altered and thus the surgebinder can slide or stick.  So tineye style and telepathy seems unlikely to me.

[11thorderknight]

I agree with Shardlet on this one. For one thing, the ten surges are described as fundamental forces on Roshar, and the 9 we know of are all either real fundamental physical forces, or very general concepts (i.e. illumination, transformation, growth, etc). Another thing is that all the radiants can already get "internal" effects from stormlight by merely holding it. It seems to basically have the same effect as Allomantic pewter, and possibly Allomantic tin as well (though we don't have any direct proof of that). 

[hoser he/him]

I think that all surges are going to be external in effect rather than internal.  The frictional forces of the ground  or floor are altered and thus the surgebinder can slide or stick. 

Um, politely, but, no.

WOR spoiler

Lift specifically talks about making different parts of her body slick.

Tonight, she stopped herself under the table, using her fingers—which weren’t Slick—then removed the Slickness from her legs.

Edited January 15, 2014 by hoser

[Shardlet he/him]

There is also this which is a bit more fully described

She ducked down, kicked herself forward, and for a moment, the floor–the carpet, the wood beneath–had no purchase on her. She glided as if on ice, making no noise as she slid across the ten-foot gap. Nothing could hold her when she got Slick like this. Fingers would slip off her, and she could glide forever. She didn’t think she’d ever stop unless she turned off the awesomeness. She’d slide all the way to the storming ocean itself.

 

Though it could be a localized effect where any surface she touches becomes 'slick' where she touches it.  That would easily be interpreted as she herself becoming 'slick'.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Shardlet

[hoser he/him]

There is also this which is a bit more fully described

 

Though it could be a localized effect where any surface she touches becomes 'slick' where she touches it.  That would easily be interpreted as she herself becoming 'slick'.

I feel confused.  I don't see how we could have read the same thing.  Walking away slowly...  I really appreciate you and all you've done here. I don't want to give offense.

[Shardlet he/him]

I feel confused.  I don't see how we could have read the same thing.  Walking away slowly...  I really appreciate you and all you've done here. I don't want to give offense.

 

Ok.

[vikorr]

Well, I'll bring my other post back to the final surge forum where it belongs. In Dalinars WoR vision, there is the following sequence.

 

Beyond him, the fight began in earnest, water splashing, rock grinding. Soldiers approached bearing hammers, and unexpectedly, these men now also glowed with Stormlight, though far more faintly.

 

Others have theorised that they are all KR in training - meaning they are all surgebinders....but this makes absolutely no sense, with way too many reasons against it for Brandon to have made such a mistake :.

 

- First and foremost : in a whole squad, not a single one of them shows any sign of surgebinding (other than being dimly glowy)...and they are fighting a...

 

thunderclast, which can kill a Herald

.

 

...You would think they'd be pulling every trick they could out...but not one single trick. This goes so far as to be unbelievable on this point alone if they are all surgebinders.

 

Dalinar finished repeating the words. Beyond him, the fight began in earnest, water splashing, rock grinding. Soldiers approached bearing hammers, and unexpectedly, these men now also glowed with Stormlight, though far more faintly.

 

Dalinar is obviously watching when they start glowing - all unexpectedly, and it appears all together. From a normal human nature combined with surgebinding abilities perspective, this presents a LOT of problems :

 

- every human has different reaction times, meaning their decision to suck in stormlight would occur at slightly different times, but Dalinar sees them all 'unexpectedly glowing', apparently altogether at once.

 

- surgebinders can choose to absorb different amounts of stormlight (this is obvious).. and in an emergency each surgebinder would suck in the amount they felt they needed without consultation with other team members (its an emergency after all)...which would result in each of them absorb different amounts of stormlight...but they all appear to be glowing evenly. 

 

- as surgebinders, some would have glowed brightly...but this is not the case. The KR, only had a 'calm white light' about her, and the soldiers glowed 'far more faintly'

 

Prior to Kaladin speaking the 2nd oath (ie base level surgebinder), Chapter 67 also makes it clear that the amount used effects the amount of glowy light generated, where he throws all of his stormlight into his shield, and you get the following commentary :

'It was like a fountain of light,' Moash said, kneeling beside Kaladin. 'Like the sun itself burst from you, Kaladin.'

 

Yet we see not one sign of this different usage, not one sign of stormlight exertion...with them facing one of the most dangerous beasts ever known.

 

------------------

PS. I think the knight was a stoneward.

 

-The armour glowed red because of a red Heliodor (some raised the issue of the chart not being red - but the chart would just show the most common colour of gem. The armour glows after the colour of gem, not the colour of the chart).

 

- running through water with ease can be caused by reducing the water tension (ie the bond between water molecules that attracts them together) of the water in front of you - which you have to push out of your way - something friction doesn't help with. Friction only helps with the water leaving your skin AFTER you have pushed it out of your way. So water tension manipulation is better than friction manipulation for this.

 

- the case was made that the knight would run on top of the water...which she could, but how does she get up there in an emergency (not too hard I would think), and how does she get her squad up on top of it (incredibly hard I would think, and would drain her stormlight very quickly)

-----------------------------------------

But if you come back to my final surge is a bonding surge theory...this whole passage makes perfect sense, and I predicted it 

 

Link to prediction of this scene

That might sound like a rather weak ability, until you consider you may well be able to form multiple bonds, and if you have a large enough gem - you'd end up with quite a squad.

 

 

As for why it makes sense, if you think about bonding a squad and then supplying a squad with stormlight through that bond(to provide energy, speed, endurance and healing - the base effects of stormlight), then the order, timing, magnitude and behaviour (of stormlight) in  every aspect of the scenario make sense :

- They only start glowing after the Knight Radiant starts glowing (which makes sense if she has bonded to them),

- they don't show any surgebinding powers in a life & death fight (which makes sense if she has bonded to them)

- they don't appear to be using varying amounts of stormlight in a life & death fight (ie varying glow depending on useage) (which makes sense if she bonded to them)

- they appear to glow all at once, together (which would also make sense if she has bonded to them),

- their glow is 'far more faintly' than the 'calm light' that the KR has (which again makes sense if she has bonded to them)

Edited January 15, 2014 by vikorr

[Stoneward]

Oh, I definitely agree that the soldiers could be getting endowed by a surge, but there's no way that they're Stonewards.

 

Color appears to be important and distinct. Each order of Radiant's plate glows a different color based on what order they are. In "A Highway to the Sun", Dalinar sees a company of Stonewards and Windrunners:

As they drew closer, Dalinar could see that their Plate was unpainted, but it glowed either blue or amber at the joints and across glyphs at the front, as with other Radiants he'd seen in his visions.

 

The Radiant in the new vision is glowing "deep red". It appears that all Windrunners glow blue. All of the Stonewards were glowing "amber". Not a range of colors matching anything a Heliodor could be. The color is presented as a unified, identifying trait, allowing the captain to recognize that they are Stonewards from a great distance.

 

If there is a surge that allows you to "divide" your Stormlight and hand it out to your team, I guarantee that it's Division. The deep red also matches the Dustbringer order on the chart.

 

Tangent: Ya'll notice how the Stonewards and Windrunners in these visions tend to appear together? Maybe they're good buddies. Another interesting point: they're in mirrored on the Surge Chart. Do all Radiant orders tend to team up with their mirrors?

[vikorr]

Good pickup Stoneward on the Highway to the Sun vision. And nice theory on division.

Edited January 15, 2014 by vikorr

[Shardlet he/him]

-The armour glowed red because of a red Heliodor (some raised the issue of the chart not being red - but the chart would just show the most common colour of gem. The armour glows after the colour of gem, not the colour of the chart).

While a heliodor may also be red, I would note that there are other gems which mave the same basic composition and crystal structure but have different colors (and even different names). Such is the case with sapphire (Windrunners) and ruby (Dustbringers). Sapphires and rubies are identical except they have different impurities which lead to different colors. Brandon has indicated that these differences result in a filtration of stormlight (for soulcasting) in a similar manner to different molecular structures of metals filtering Preservations power on Scadrial. As such rubies and sapphires produce differing soulcasting effects.  Therefore, ipso facto, a red heliodor should not have the same effect as an amber yellow heliodor because the molecular makeup is different in the same way a ruby and a sapphire are different.

 

Edit: I would also note that a heliodor is a subset of beryl (along with morganite, emerald, goshenite, and aquamarine each having the same crystal structure but different impurities) ranging in color from yellow to yellow-green.  Red beryl is typically referred to as beryl not heliodor.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Shardlet

[Stoneward]

And nice theory on division.

 

I can't really claim credit on that; I first came across the idea in Cheese Ninja's post here (WoR spoilers!): http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5169-dustbringers-division-surge/

 

While a heliodor may also be red, I would note that there are other gems which mave the same basic composition and crystal structure but have different colors (and even different names). Such is the case with sapphire (Windrunners) and ruby (Dustbringers). Sapphires and rubies are identical except they have different impurities which lead to different colors. Brandon has indicated that these differences result in a filtration of stormlight (for soulcasting) in a similar manner to different molecular structures of metals filtering Preservations power on Scadrial. As such rubies and sapphires produce differing soulcasting effects.  Therefore, ipso facto, a red heliodor should not have the same effect as an amber heliodor because the molecular makeup is different in the same way a ruby and a sapphire are different.

 

Excellent stuff, here. I knew the color was important, but this explains why.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Stoneward

[vikorr]

Yep, thanks for the WoB quote.