Question about the source/origin of Feruchemy

[Avivsm]

Preservation fuels Allomancy and  Ruin fuels Hemalurgy

than is shouldn't be a Shard that fuel Feruchemy?

Has Sanderson stated or implied about the source or origin of Feruchemy

or even stated or implied that it has a source to be reviald?

(sorry about my English, it's not my native language)

[cem he/him]

Feruchemy is a balance magic between Preservation and Ruin, though the "source" as you call it doesn't come from an external power but from the Feruchemist itself. I supposed it can now be said that it's Harmony's magic system, which is a nice little detail considering Sazed was a Feruchemist.

 

See: Coppermind article

[bartbug he/him]

I think what he was trying to ask is how do Feruchemists have their powers in the first place? Everything else is an overbalance of Preservation, either through genetics or from Hemalurgic Theft.

[Oudeis he/him]

My friend asked this specific question of Brandon at a recent signing. I've asked him to join us and tell us what the answer was.

[KevThinker he/him]

My current theory is that Feruchemy was the by product of Ruin and Harmony collaborating to create Scadrial in the first place. It survived past that initial event because it doesn't create or destroy when utilized. I also think it might be possible to create a Feruchemist by making an alloy from Atium and Larasium.

[Shardlet he/him]

...Ruin and Harmony...

 

<cough, cough> Ruin and Preservation <cough>

 

The fact that feruchemy is/was found in the Terris people exclusively suggests otherwise to me.  If it was a result of the creation of humanity, then I would expect seeds of feruchemy to be more scattered and single metal feruchemists here and there.

[Moogle]

The fact that feruchemy is/was found in the Terris people exclusively suggests otherwise to me.  If it was a result of the creation of humanity, then I would expect seeds of feruchemy to be more scattered and single metal feruchemists here and there.

 

Given that Feruchemy is a balance of Preservation and Ruin, wouldn't that suggest that the Terris people have a bit less of the innate Preservation every human has, bringing them closer to a 50/50 split? From what I understand, there has to be more of one Shard than another to make sentient people, but if Terrismen had much less Preservation relative to other people, it would explain the creation of Ferrings, in a way. Each child gets half of their parent's innate Investiture, meaning the diluted Terris bloodlines would be much farther away from a 50/50 split and thus be weaker Feruchemically, making for a Ferring.

 

Allomancy would be caused by having way more Preservation relative to regular members of the population.

 

Over time, as regular Allomancers have kids with non-Allomancers, their Innate Preservation should slowly decrease and decrease, resulting in lowered power.

 

According to this, though, a Ferring and Misting should have children that have no powers because their innate Investiture would essentially match up with that of a regular person. Maybe if your parent has powers, you can get them too, regardless of innate Investiture? It could explain the Twinborn, I guess.

[Shardlet he/him]

Given that Feruchemy is a balance of Preservation and Ruin, wouldn't that suggest that the Terris people have a bit less of the innate Preservation every human has, bringing them closer to a 50/50 split? From what I understand, there has to be more of one Shard than another to make sentient people, but if Terrismen had much less Preservation relative to other people, it would explain the creation of Ferrings, in a way. Each child gets half of their parent's innate Investiture, meaning the diluted Terris bloodlines would be much farther away from a 50/50 split and thus be weaker Feruchemically, making for a Ferring.

 

It seems that you are trying to straddle a 50/50 split and needing to have more Preservation than Ruin to be sentient.  I'm not sure it would work that way.  For one thing, it seems that if that were the case, the genetics of a feruchemist and an allomancer producing children would essentially cancel each other out.  Also, it seems unlikely that Preservation would have chosen a group of people to put less of himself into (which also kind of suggests that they would be less-sentient).  I don't see how Preservation would have known that such an action would result in a different kind of investiture.  And that is the only reason I can readily conceive of why Preservation would take such an action.

[Oudeis he/him]

My friend asked Mr. Sanderson exactly this question and was given the next-best-thing to a RAFO. I'm trying to get him to join the fora so he can tell you himself what the man said.

[Moogle]

Also, it seems unlikely that Preservation would have chosen a group of people to put less of himself into (which also kind of suggests that they would be less-sentient).  I don't see how Preservation would have known that such an action would result in a different kind of investiture.  And that is the only reason I can readily conceive of why Preservation would take such an action.

 

I'm not convinced that having less Investiture makes you less sentient. Giving up Breath certainly doesn't alter your sentience, it just alters your personality slightly. There is an issue with this, though: the Terris people as a whole are very conservative, which implies they should have more Preservation than regular people, but I think it doesn't quite kill off the theory. Preservation could have just affected their culture, which probably plays just about as important a role in their race's personalities as their innate Investiture.

 

I also think that Preservation would know about the effects of Investiture on the magic system. It's implied that Shards have an almost innate knowledge of the Cosmere, to the extent that Ruin automatically knows everything about Hemalurgy (or at least a lot).

 

As to a Misting having a kid with a Ferring cancelling things out, that is also an issue with the theory, but not insurmountable. There is a difference between your spiritual DNA and your innate Investiture, I think. If your parents are a Feruchemist and Mistborn, then you'll have a normal person's Investiture, but you could also inherit your parent's sDNA (which controls whether or not someone is a Misting or Ferring). The amount of Investiture you have could just affect how powerful your resulting powers are.

 

So, my theory here would predict that the child of a Feruchemist and Mistborn could be a Mistborn/Ferring/Misting/Twinborn/Feruchemist, but would be weaker than their parents. It also predicts that two Allomancers or two Feruchemists having children should have children that are the same strength as them.

 

I'm not too certain on this theory (it obviously has problems), but I think it's workable.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Moogle

[Swimmingly he/him]

I think that feruchemy was a magic system originally imagined in a different setting than Mistborn, and was a more balanced riff on some of the Kkell powers. From what I can see, feruchemy is basically the ability to transpose spiritual and cognitive aspects into physical objects, where they're held in a stasis until retrieved. This ability is genetic, and, regardless of origins, is a piece of highly specific power contained in sDNA, acting more like a bridge than anything else. We know that people from different Shardworlds would not be able to easily access other magic systems (except for Hoid and the Yolenites) - I'm guessing that the inability for the non-Terris to use feruchemy despite having both Ruin and Preservations' power is just this on a more local scale.

 

If unbalanced Shardosity is the only requirement for sentience, after all, then literally everything on Nalthis should be sentient, and Allomancers should be "more sentient" than anyone else.

[Moogle]

If unbalanced Shardosity is the only requirement for sentience, after all, then literally everything on Nalthis should be sentient, and Allomancers should be "more sentient" than anyone else.

 

The shards did not create the planets, necessarily. Roshar has Adonalsium-spren, which could only have happened if it was around before Adonalsium shattered. It's possible Endowment was only responsible for making humans (and maybe animals/plants).

[Swimmingly he/him]

The shards did not create the planets, necessarily. Roshar has Adonalsium-spren, which could only have happened if it was around before Adonalsium shattered. It's possible Endowment was only responsible for making humans (and maybe animals/plants).

If everything's secretly sentient there, even vegetarians aren't justified...

[Moogle]

If everything's secretly sentient there, even vegetarians aren't justified...

 

Well, given what we know of Soulcasting in TWoK, everything is sort of sentient and don't mind changing. Maybe plants are okay with being eaten?

[Aether he/him]

If everything's secretly sentient there, even vegetarians aren't justified...

Well, given what we know of Soulcasting in TWoK, everything is sort of sentient and don't mind changing. Maybe plants are okay with being eaten?

I've never really understood the point of vegetarianism anyway. How exactly are you helping or being kind to the animals if you eat their food? 

 

EDIT: Added Smiley.

 

EDIT 2: Forgot to add Smiley.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Aether

[DocHoliday he/him]

If everything's secretly sentient there, even vegetarians aren't justified...

Vegetarians are never  justified. It would put me out of a job 

 

I've never really understood the point of vegetarianism anyway. How exactly are you helping or being kind to the animals if you eat their food?

The idea is that vegans are not eating the animal itself, as that is supposedly cruel. There's plenty of green for animals to eat.

Nevermind about the pesticides and traps used to keep them out of your salad while it's being grown. To each, his own I guess.

 

Also to throw another Cosmere wrench in the works. Everything has a Form in the 3 Realms, so Ya..plants actually have a Cognitive aspect where they see themselves as a plant. Even more disturbing, IRL, according to theorists,if you hook up a plant to a polygraph machine (lie detector), and yell at it out use an angry tone of voice. The plant reacts. Giving off measurable pulses similar to a human being subjected to emotional stimuli.

...I'm getting a head ache trying to comprehend the possible Realmatic consequences of this idea.

[Aether he/him]

The idea is that vegans are not eating the animal itself, as that is supposedly cruel. There's plenty of green for animals to eat.

Nevermind about the pesticides and traps used to keep them out of your salad while it's being grown. To each, his own I guess.

 

Also to throw another Cosmere wrench in the works. Everything has a Form in the 3 Realms, so Ya..plants actually have a Cognitive aspect where they see themselves as a plant. Even more disturbing, IRL, according to theorists,if you hook up a plant to a polygraph machine (lie detector), and yell at it out use an angry tone of voice. The plant reacts. Giving off measurable pulses similar to a human being subjected to emotional stimuli.

...I'm getting a head ache trying to comprehend the possible Realmatic consequences of this idea.

'Twas meant to be taken as a joke. Don't slam me, up-vote me!

 

Also, that's cool! Do you have a link to the article?

[Shardlet he/him]

'Twas meant to be taken as a joke. Don't slam me, up-vote me!

 

I think part of the problem is that you don't include any indicators (such as a  ) when you post jokes.  At times it is not obvious that you are joking (I would think especially to those whose primary language is not English).  There have been times when I did not realize you were telling a joke until a second (or third) reading.

[Aether he/him]

I think part of the problem is that you don't include any indicators (such as a  ) when you post jokes.  At times it is not obvious that you are joking (I would think especially to those whose primary language is not English).  There have been times when I did not realize you were telling a joke until a second (or third) reading.

I've never really been comfortable with smiley's as I find them a bit artificial. But you make a good point, though. Especially considering this is a multi-national forum, I shall hence endeavour to put in smileys wherever they seem pertinent! First try:   

[Shardlet he/him]

I've never really been comfortable with smiley's as I find them a bit artificial. But you make a good point, though. Especially considering this is a multi-national forum, I shall hence endeavour to put in smileys wherever they seem pertinent! First try: 

 

I totally get where you are coming from.  Unfortunately however, written communication loses much of the nuance of face-to-face communication in the loss of tone of voice and inflection, facial cues, and gestures.  This is why people have had a lot of problems with email communication.  A benign message can frequently be read as hostile and aggressive without special consideration.  Without care, misunderstandings abound. 

[Swimmingly he/him]

Always use the Commas: Let's eat, Grandma! vs. Let's eat Grandma!

[DocHoliday he/him]

'Twas meant to be taken as a joke. Don't slam me, up-vote me!

 

Also, that's cool! Do you have a link to the article?

'Twas not a slam, but a sham! I'm a butcher by trade 

 

Actually if you Wiki it, they have a number of articles on the whole vv plant thing.

I'm personally not a subscriber to the idea, but my parents(1 set anyway) are avid gardeners, and many members of they 'circle' attest that plants (quite similar to dogs actually) DO seem to thrive when administered some good old fashion TLC  (Tender Loving Care).

 

While I  have observed this first hand, I cannot genuinely say that is not at least partially a product of offering more time to maintain a healthy environment for the plants. Same way a military personnel maintains their weapons and gear. It's just a way of life to some.