On the current state of Shardblades

[Abba Zaba]

Hello All,

First post. I hope you can suffer any reiterations I make in this post and apologize in advance if any, in fact, do occur. I just finished my third read through of the wonderfully realized Way of Kings and something that Syl said struck me as I finished the book, specifically this sequence:

Kaladin: "Dare I trust him?" Syl: "He's a good man. I've watched him. Despite that thing he carried." Kaladin: "That thing?" Syl: "The Shardblade." K: "What do you care about it?" Syl: "I dont know. It just feels wrong to me. I hate it. Im glad he got rid of it. Makes him a better man."

This struck me as odd. Syl is an honorspren, presumably bound to the Radiants of old, carried, of all things, Shardblades. I dont assume to know her feelings towards the former blades, but the blade was used against the Voidbringers and as a source for good, there is no reason she should have such a strong negative reaction to the weapon, so what is it?

There are numerous other instances throughout the text where the nature of the blades men currently carry is called into question. After Dalinar's vision of the day of recreance, he sees all the Radiants abandon plate and blade, yet there are so many of them and so few blades to account for this day and age. Are those blades simply lost, or something else entirely? In Dalinar's final vision the Almighty says: "Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore." Now this quote could mean the Dawnshards, or since this is a quote we connect with the Knights Radiant, could mean the shardblades they once carried. It is possible the noble characteristics in man are what will allow these shards to return.

However, I propose this, perhaps the shards currently possessed by men are inherently evil, shards from Odium, meant only to divide and destroy men. Perhaps in the last desolation as the Almighty says, "Your legends say that you won. But the truth is that we lost. And we are losing." Odium won. When we think of the Knights Radiant betraying mankind, it may have been due to Odium's influence and when men picked up the shards left behind by the Radiants (which lost their stormlight), we see they begin slaughtering one another for possession of one. This is exactly what Odium wants and what his influence would inspire. That is why Dalinar, according to Syl, is a better man for having given the blade up. Someone who speaks the oaths, who possesses honor and who is inherently good must bring the true shardblades/plate back to mankind so they can fight back when the true desolation comes. As others have mentioned Szeth cannot lash himself while in plate, while the Radiants of old, who fought for good, clearly could. These are the reasons why I think that the blades/plate of old are different from those currently on Roshar.

Anyway, its something to chew on while we await the next installment of this excellent series!

[KChan]

I've definitely been thinking similar things to you about the Shardblades. There's obviously something that's not right with them, which is made perfectly obvious by things like Syl's reaction to them, the fact that they lost their inner light in Dalinar's vision, and even Kaladin's reaction to the Blade in his flashback sequence. The Shardblades have been corrupted somehow - quite possibly, as you say, due to Odium's influence - and now our heroes are left to pick up the pieces. (Or was that pick up the Shards? )

This was a very good post, Abba, especially for your first contribution! Also, welcome! Good to have you here.

[FlashWrogan]

This is a very insightful post. It made me think of two things that back up your hypothesis.

The first is in the first interlude (or prelude or whatever it is) when Szeth first starts fighting Gavilar. He talks about the advantages and disadvantages of shardplate and says that his abilities (surgebinding) would interfere with the shardplate. I always thought that this was odd since we see Knights Radiant using shardplate and surgebinding together in Dalinar's flashbacks.

Edit: Didn't notice that you had brought this up...

It could be that shardplate was also affected by this "change" and that this change affects its function (it also may have to do with the fact that they both are powered by stormlight). The other possibility though is that it may be Szeth's surgebinding that is different and therefore interferes (he doesn't seem to have a spren etc).

The second thing popped into my head as I was reading your post. We see the Thrill discussed by Dalinar. I'm not sure, but I don't think the book references anyone other than a shardbearer having this Thrill. I also wish I knew whether or not it is supposed to be capitalized for sure, as that would have some bearing. It could be that the Thrill is something that is connected to shardblades, or perhaps both sharblades and shardplate. This would fall very neatly along the lines that you were talking about.

Edited October 17, 2012 by FlashWrogan

[dionysus]

Going off memory but I believe Adolin says he has experienced the Thrill, and Sadeas mentions it outloud to Dalinar. At work so I can't find the quotes.

I believe Dalinar also muses that all Alethi feel the Thrill in battle, but it is seldom talked about.

My own personal theory is that only shardholders or lighteyes who feel the Thrill, and it has something to do with Odium's corruption of the shards which corrupts the sDNA of the shardholder and their descendants, lighteyes. Several unproven suppositions in this theory though.

Edit:

And to whether capitalization is intentional, I would say that is a definite yes. There are over 30 "Thrill" and less that 15 "thrill." This is a very intentional capitalization.

A few mentions of the Thrill in capital letters I find interesting:

Kindle version, location 3751: "The Thrill of contest began to rise within him. It wasn't nearly as keen as the Thrill of battle, but it was a worthy substitute....." -from the climbing contest Dalinar has with Elhokar

6193: " pain evaporating as the battle Thrill surged through him. He needed a weapon!" - Interesting because Dalinar feels the Thrill in his vision of the past, as he acts through another persons body.

7964: Sadeas outloud to Dalinar "'And the Thrill, Dalinar. Do you still feel the Thrill?' Men didn't often speak of the Thrill, the joy and lust for battle. It was a private thing." Lookey here, my memory was correct.

8648: Adolin point of view. "Dalinar said, 'In combat, do you feel the Thrill?' Adolin started. He knew immediately what his father meant, but he was shocked to hear the words. This wasn't often discussed. 'I...Well, of course. Who doesn't?'"

All in all, my kindle found 42 matches to "thrill." Weeding out the lower case uses, and combining the results that occur in the same passages, there are about 10 different instances where the Thrill is discussed in the book. 2 of these instances have several mentions spanning several pages. Most notably the final battle, in which it is mentioned over 10 times and over a large chunck of pages.

I've been meaning to do some wild speculation on the Thrill on these boards. I believe it is a magic system and it is tied to Odium. Most notably in the final battle, Dalinar strength is fading and he loses the Thrill becaus he has compassion for those he is killing. But to survive, he realizes that he must fully embrace the Thrill, when he does he has a surge of new energy to continue the fight.

Edited October 17, 2012 by dionysus

[Abba Zaba]

Thanks for the welcome KChan!

I didnt even think about the Thrill being related to this, but I think you guys might be right about it. You rarely see it mentioned not in relation to a Shardbearer. The other character that you see in battle, Kaladin, doesnt experience lust and joy of battle, only regret and only the need to protect and defend his men. That strikes me as very honorable. When he finds himself cutting down the Parshendi he feels respect for them and regret but does not enjoy it.

This makes me think of what you mention, dionysus, as "the Alethi way". What promoted this way of thinking? Of doing whatever it took to gain an advantage over your enemy, even if that meant betraying an alliance and stabbing someone in the back (Sadeas). Of constantly seeking wars over simple border disputes among Highprinces that are supposed to be of the same nation. I think it all comes back to the lighteyes and Odium's corruption. Lighteyes feel the Thrill and constantly seek combat. There are plenty of textual examples of differences in personality and behavior between light and dark eyed people. Off the top of my head I remember a sequence between Kaladin and his father Lirin just after Roshone and his son get mauled by the whitespine. Lirin says regarding lighteyes, "If you cant kill men, you kill beasts. Well this is what you found, Roshone". I dont think its the same with every light eyed person, obviously Dalinar and his camp are good. But the majority of them are not. Maybe Odium found that lighteyes were easily corruptible and used them to sow discord throughout Roshar after Alethela was destroyed in the last desolation. Dalinar mentions the Way of Kings and why some in Alethkar think it is blasphemous - it suggests that dark eyed people are above light eyed in station. I think they are inherently more honorable. It comes back to the WoK and honor. What was Dalinar before he encountered the book? A self-proclaimed tyrant and force of death that wanted to kill his own brother for his wife.

Finding honor might be what transforms men. That might be the difference between Surgebinders and Windrunners and what men have to find or be taught so that the Knights Radiant can come again and men stand united for the Final Desolation. Unite them. hahaha.

Of course I might be way off base! Is the second book out yet? lol

[dionysus]

Unfortunately, at the earliest the 2nd book isn't coming till late 2013. I curse you WoT. Delaying a masterful series to finish a lesser one. Not to mention I have never seen a book from a well known author in an epic series that wasn't delayed at least 6 months. We might be waiting till Fall 2014.

I largely agree with you Abba Zaba. Here are the things that are unproven at this point that we should watch for in the subsequent books

1. All lighteyes are descendants from shardbearers. This one seems very likely.

2. Darkeyes do not experience the Thrill.

3. The shards are different now, or alternatively not the same as the KR shards. There is some evidence of this, glowing shardplate, KR were not only light eyed, they were pale eyed, almost white.

4. The capitalization of the Thrill indicates a magic system, not just cultural importance to the Alethi. I think there is good evidence of this, since Dalinar gains energy and fights better when he succombs to the Thrill. However, it is not out of the question that it is just normal blood lust and that the Alethi culture just loves blood lust, after all there is real world precedent for that cultural phenomenon.

Without a doubt though, the Alethi are corrupted from what they were during the times of the Radiants and the Heralds. I believe it has to do with Odium and the Thrill, but that is unproven.

A random though. During the Recreance flashback it is mentioned that the KRs were fighting "devils", but the Recreance did not happen during a Desolation. There is also a second army, waiting for the desharded Radiants to return. The Radiants are walking toward them away from Feverstone Keep. I speculate that the "devils" were just other humans, and the Radiants had become involved in politics and wars between nations. Realizing the error of their ways, and perhaps that their own shards were now corrupted and generated a lust for power and battle, they gave them up. What I really want to know is what happened to the Radiants and that 2nd army associated with the Radiants. I have a feeling their descendants have a role to play.

I am rambling here but the Almighty in this vision, referring to the soldiers picking up the abandoned shards, says, "They were the first, and the last." What the heck does that mean!

Edited October 17, 2012 by dionysus

[KChan]

Dalinar mentions the Way of Kings and why some in Alethkar think it is blasphemous - it suggests that dark eyed people are above light eyed in station.

Do you remember where that was mentioned in the book? I totally forgot about that! I suppose it would make sense, though: it seems pretty apparent the Knights Radiant were a position of honorable service, of putting others before yourself. To powerhungry Alethi Lighteyes, that would definitely make it look like they were, well, servants. Then when the Shards were corrupted and the soldiers picked them up to use for themselves, suddenly being a Shardbearer or even just a Lighteyes became what gave you power and influence.

[Abba Zaba]

Do you remember where that was mentioned in the book? I totally forgot about that! I suppose it would make sense, though: it seems pretty apparent the Knights Radiant were a position of honorable service, of putting others before yourself. To powerhungry Alethi Lighteyes, that would definitely make it look like they were, well, servants. Then when the Shards were corrupted and the soldiers picked them up to use for themselves, suddenly being a Shardbearer or even just a Lighteyes became what gave you power and influence.

It is Page 244 (Loc 4986) - Kindle Version. The very end of Chapter 15: The Decoy. "In other places it outright said that lighteyes were beneath darkeyes. That contradicted Vorin teachings."

Ahh that part I hadnt noticed either, that there is a Vorin theological basis for their right to rule. That could be interpreted a number of ways. Verrry interesting.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Abba Zaba

[FlashWrogan]

I believe Dalinar also muses that all Alethi feel the Thrill in battle, but it is seldom talked about.

My own personal theory is that only shardholders or lighteyes who feel the Thrill, and it has something to do with Odium's corruption of the shards which corrupts the sDNA of the shardholder and their descendants, lighteyes. Several unproven suppositions in this theory though.

My theory is that is only shardbearers that experience the thrill. As far as I can recall, only three people reference the thrill, and all three have shardplate (two have blades). It also states that it is seldom talked of, which could easily lead to misconceptions about who experiences it. I kind of had the feeling that the Thrill was as much of a taboo subject to talk about as sex was 50 or 100 years ago. This would fall more closely into line with Syl's reaction to the shardblade. It may be that we see a diminishing or absence of the Thrill in Dalinar in book two.

It is Page 244 (Loc 4986) - Kindle Version. The very end of Chapter 15: The Decoy. "In other places it outright said that lighteyes were beneath darkeyes. That contradicted Vorin teachings."

Isn't there another part where Dalinar says this is only in the context of a leader serving his people? My memory is that the text never really outright said that darkeyes were superior, just that people misinterpreted it that way.

[Arran]

Unfortunately, at the earliest the 2nd book isn't coming till late 2013. I curse you WoT. Delaying a masterful series to finish a lesser one. Not to mention I have never seen a book from a well known author in an epic series that wasn't delayed at least 6 months. We might be waiting till Fall 2014.

I believe Sanderson has mentioned that if not for the experience at planning and writing epic-length series he gained while finishing Wheel of Time, he wouldn't have been able to plan and write Stormlight Archive. So I look upon his finishing WoT as an unfortunate but necessary delay... a delay that is fortunately over. Even if Sanderson does finish book 2 later than he'd like and it's published somewhere in 2014, I'm certain that books 3 and on will come at a faster pace, because I'm certain that writing a 10-book series with 3+ years pauses between new installments is not how Sanderson wants to proceed.

As to this thread's original and subsequent posts, I agree that there's definitely something very wrong with current-day Shardblades and/or the way they are used. Certainly the mindset of the great majority of the Alethi and the way they approach warfare isn't conducive to honor. Something I find very telling is that Kaladin, certainly the most honorable warrior we've spent a lot of time with thus far, never feels the Thrill. He certainly seems to enjoy his skill with the spear, especially when he's practicing with it, but he never revels in the death/slaughter of his opponents. His foremost goal in battle is to protect his men/allies, not to kill his foes.

EDIT: Another point to consider is Kaladin's reaction, or rather his aversion, when he was presented with the opportunity to wield a Shardblade after he killed the Shardbearer who went after Amaram. I can't help but wonder if even back then Kaladin was unconsciously being affected by Syl's own unconscious revulsion to Shardblades.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Arran

[Inkthinker]

My theory is that is only shardbearers that experience the thrill. As far as I can recall, only three people reference the thrill, and all three have shardplate (two have blades). It also states that it is seldom talked of, which could easily lead to misconceptions about who experiences it. I kind of had the feeling that the Thrill was as much of a taboo subject to talk about as sex was 50 or 100 years ago.

I'm thinking that the Thrill isn't anything other than a formalized name for the surge of adrenaline and other emotions that are associated with getting into a life-or-death combat. It's the sort of thing you hear about all the time from soldiers and professional fighters.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Inkthinker

[FlashWrogan]

I'm thinking that the Thrill isn't anything other than a formalized name for the surge of adrenaline and other emotions that are associated with getting into a life-or-death combat. It's the sort of thing you hear about all the time from soldiers and professional fighters.

If this is the case then:

1. Why do we never see Kaladin experience the Thrill? He sometimes has mixed feelings about killing people, but it never seems to dampen his skill and he is always focused on protecting his own. Dalinar's ability to keep his head in the game and fight well is linked with the thrill except for those times we see him defend someone else (Elhokar and Sadeas)

2. Why is the Thrill capitalized?

[Zenith]

My theory is that is only shardbearers that experience the thrill. As far as I can recall, only three people reference the thrill, and all three have shardplate (two have blades).

Szeth also mentions the thrill; it's in the chapter where he kills Gavilar.

Also, I've heard it mentioned before that the Thrill may be some kind of thing to help men fighting Voidbringers and whatever other terrors happened in those days. It makes sense, if you think of it; those things probably had some sort of built-in fear system that the Thrill could counteract; with them removed, the Thrill became something that it just wasn't supposed to be.

[Asperity]

Szeth also mentions the thrill; it's in the chapter where he kills Gavilar.

Also, I've heard it mentioned before that the Thrill may be some kind of thing to help men fighting Voidbringers and whatever other terrors happened in those days. It makes sense, if you think of it; those things probably had some sort of built-in fear system that the Thrill could counteract; with them removed, the Thrill became something that it just wasn't supposed to be.

Szeth just experienced normal thrill; no Thrill.

[Zenith]

Szeth just experienced normal thrill; no Thrill.

Thrill isn't always capitolized; Dalinar mentions a "thrill of contest", and compares it to the Thrill that we know. They're probably at least somewhat similar, correct? We just don't know enough yet.

[Asperity]

Thrill isn't always capitolized; Dalinar mentions a "thrill of contest", and compares it to the Thrill that we know. They're probably at least somewhat similar, correct? We just don't know enough yet.

Since there are several instances of thrill being capitalized and in lowercase, I'm positive that they are different.

[FlashWrogan]

whether or not thrill is closely linked to the Thrill, Szeth is also a shardbearer and could easily fit into my theory.

[Inkthinker]

If this is the case then:

1. Why do we never see Kaladin experience the Thrill? He sometimes has mixed feelings about killing people, but it never seems to dampen his skill and he is always focused on protecting his own. Dalinar's ability to keep his head in the game and fight well is linked with the thrill except for those times we see him defend someone else (Elhokar and Sadeas)

2. Why is the Thrill capitalized?

Because Kaladin and Dalinar approach combat and fighting from different perspectives. It's capitalized because Dalinar has formalized the concept in his own head.

Bear in mind, I could be wrong... I have no insider knowledge on this particular subject, it's one of those things where I'm as much into the mystery as any reader, and I don't plan to burn what little time I get speaking to Brandon asking him about it, so I'm with everyone else in making guesses.

Do we see anyone at all refer to it by a formal (capitalized) name other than Dalinar? I remember him speaking with Andolin about it, but even that's in the context of Dalinar's viewpoint.

[FlashWrogan]

Because Kaladin and Dalinar approach combat and fighting from different perspectives. It's capitalized because Dalinar has formalized the concept in his own head.

Bear in mind, I could be wrong... I have no insider knowledge on this particular subject, it's one of those things where I'm as much into the mystery as any reader, and I don't plan to burn what little time I get speaking to Brandon asking him about it, so I'm with everyone else in making guesses.

Do we see anyone at all refer to it by a formal (capitalized) name other than Dalinar? I remember him speaking with Andolin about it, but even that's in the context of Dalinar's viewpoint.

Your arguments are valid and I have no hard evidence against them . A few points though. I believe Sadeas does ask Dalinar about the thrill, but this would also be from Dalinar's viewpoint, so you could assume that it is his perspective capitalizing it. My opinion is that capitalized words such as Memory and Thrill are indicative of a bigger picture from Brandon, rather than assumptions on the character's part.

[Windrunner]

I viewed the thrill similar to Inkthinker. Although I wonder if perhaps it's a part of the Alethi lighteyes culture, even if it is a somewhat taboo topic. Kaladin and Szeth wouldn't refer to it as such because they come from different backgrounds.

[Cayden]

My take on it is that Shardblade and Plate are an endowment of the bond between Surgebinder and Spren. That they have to be earned to function properly, and they have to be used with Honor or they can be corrupted by Odium.

If this is the case then Syl would not like anyone having a Shardblade who has not earnt it, who hasnt said all of the oaths, but more importantly they are meant to be used to defend humanity and no to our knowledge Shardblade currently in existence is pure. They have all been used by men to kill other men.

I am curious to see when Kaladin says the fifth Oath whether he is endowed with plate and Blade of his own. The real question is whether he gets a Sword. or whether he gets something similar to Mat(WoT)'s Ashandarei. Namedly a Staff with a blade on the tip.

[Zenith]

The real question is whether he gets a Sword. or whether he gets something similar to Mat(WoT)'s Ashandarei. Namedly a Staff with a blade on the tip.

Kaladin plus Dawn/Honor/Shardspear+Plate=Most dangerous warrior on Roshar. Even Szeth, with all his skill, couldn't match Kaladin.

Anyway, the other real question is whether or not Kaladin would become a lighteyes. Szeth, for instance, is lighteyed only when wielding the Sword. The herald at the end of the book (Taln? IDK) was Darkeyed even with the blade. If Kaladin DID become permanently lighteyed, I think he would be pretty mad, but that's just me.

[Cuddlespren]

Since Adolin refers to the fact that everyone feels the Thrill I think it is not tied to eyes or shards at all, but comes from somewhere else.

I like the idea that the existing shards are corrupted, but I think it's something more complicated than that.

[Zenith]

Since Adolin refers to the fact that everyone feels the Thrill I think it is not tied to eyes or shards at all, but comes from somewhere else.

I like the idea that the existing shards are corrupted, but I think it's something more complicated than that.

Is it possible that the existing shards aren't even the same ones that the radiants used?

Either way, welcome to 17th shard!

[Abba Zaba]

Kaladin plus Dawn/Honor/Shardspear+Plate=Most dangerous warrior on Roshar. Even Szeth, with all his skill, couldn't match Kaladin.

Anyway, the other real question is whether or not Kaladin would become a lighteyes. Szeth, for instance, is lighteyed only when wielding the Sword. The herald at the end of the book (Taln? IDK) was Darkeyed even with the blade. If Kaladin DID become permanently lighteyed, I think he would be pretty mad, but that's just me.

I dont remember the text saying Szeth was lighteyed when wielding the shard, can you find that? I think that the legends surrounding a darkeyed person winning a shardblade and plate are just that - legends - that it happened so rarely or infrequently (possibly never) that the dark eyes invented it to give themselves some kind of hope that there is a possibility to rise above their current station in Alethkar.