rhaiynebow

Thanks @Weltall! I didn't realize there was WoB that said Kelsier was on Scadrial when he found the Ire. And I did read Oathbringer, but it's been a while and I obviously forgot some stuff, so time to start a reread! Thanks again! 

Resurrecting this since I had a thought about the Ire keep that ties a bit into this theory. I don't post much, but wanted to get other opinions on whether or not this may be valid.

I also think that the Ire keep it's in Roshars cognitive realm, but rather than the Purelake, I thought it tied better to Akinah. If you read the description of Akinah in the Copper mind, and I think it's also in Khriss's notes somewhere in AU, it sounds like it may be viable. Link to the Copper mind description is below. 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Akinah

It's interesting in that Akinah is described as being in an island in the middle of the ocean off the coast of Shinovar. I know the animals there are more crustaceous in nature, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the land itself wasn't more "green" as Kelsier described when touching the keeps stones. Maybe the stones came from Shinovar? Also, Kelsier describes this:

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He hiked through the jungle for days, but then it started to dwindle. Eventually he reached a place where plants grew only in occasional patches. They were replaced with strange formations of rock, like glassy sculptures. The jagged things were often some ten feet or more tall.

Which sounds a bit like the history of Akinah from the Coppermind. As well as the reference to it being a land of fabrials and soulcasters since we know the Ire had the shadow detecting fabrial:

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At some point in the past, air was Soulcast into massive spikes surrounding the city.^[1] In the Heraldic Epochs, Akinah was known as the place to obtain Soulcasters, powerful fabrials that allowed the user to transform one substance into another.

I'll echo the OP here and say, am I crazy? Thanks in advance for humoring me.

One small correction to the OP:

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Page 231: Chemoarish, the Dustmother, has some of the most varied lore surrounding her. The wealth of it makes sorting lies from truths extremely difficult. I do not believe she is not the Nightwatcher, contrary to what some stories claim.

I really like the idea that the fourth ideal will be along the lines of honoring the dead by protecting the living or accepting failure in order to move on...but thinking about the fact that he gets plate with fourth ideal and the fact that he tends to protect people with little to no regard for his own safety, could it be "I will protect myself first, so that I may protect others"? That would fit with the windrunner epigrah, and with the flashback with Nalma(?) where she was telling him to go and leave her so he wouldn't get caught, and in Shadesmar where they were surrounded by the fused (protect himself and the others from the fused as an immediate threat to himself vs. going to try to save Dalinar).

@ccstat - THANK YOU!!

Would one of you guys be willing to summarize what was found so I can be lazy and not have to go through 34 pages of posts to find the tidbit of info? And in English please, not Mathematics  I read all the posts on this page and my brain just automatically went into auto pilot as soon as it saw algebraic type equations and graphs n stuff LOL. I am SOOOOOO not a math person!!

Thank you, thank you, thank you in advance!!

Oooooo, I like this idea! I thought Honor originally too, but this would also make sense. Since she's an Uberspren, she might not be knocked down as many pegs in terms of intelligence level as "normal" spren are when oaths are broken, so the boon/curse due to a fractured mind makes much sense!!

I agree that Nalan is most definitely a "black and white, NO GRAY" kind of guy...BUT, with how much his lack of emotion is called out in our encounters with him, I think there's more to it than it just being his personality. Either he did something purposely to remove his emotions in order to allow him to more effectively make appropriate judgments without emotional influence, OR, it could possibly be something that is part of the Skybreakers abilities due to bond/honorblade/stormlight. And by that, I mean maybe he has the ability to "turn off" his emotions (i.e. remove/block his soul) at will. I say that because in the LIft interlude, she does see one emotion from him (bafflement I think it was). Other than that, I don't recall him showing any emotion at all. Also, I wondered about this statement in regards to Mrall, Taravangian's "bodyguard".

"Do not take pleasure in suffering," Taravangian replied. "Even when it is a work of our hands." He took a bite of the mush.

"Particularly when it is a work of our hands."

"As you wish. I will do so no more."

"Can you really change that easily?" Taravangian asked. "Turn off your emotions on a whim?"

"Of course," Mrall said.

Something about that tickled at Taravangian, some thread of interest. If he had been in one of his more brilliant states, he might have seized upon it - but today, he sensed thought seeping away like water between fingers.

So there's something strange about Mrall, or maybe his ability to turn on/off emotion that Mr. T notices too. I thought that maybe Mrall is Nalan undercover, but that just doesn't seem right. I feel like maybe Mrall is part of the KR and possibly a Skybreaker under Nalan would be the better potential option here. Thoughts?

Yes, you're correct in that it can't technically be an "Honorblade" because it's not "of honor" having been created on Nalthis, but it can act very, very similar to one. So in familiar Roshar terms, it would be an Honorblade. Brandon does say that it's exactly the same as a shardblade, but then why RAFO the question about whether or not it acts the same as an honorblade? If the answer was yes to one, then why not "no" to the other?? Yes, I know, could just be toying with us, but just seems odd to me. Here are the WoB referenced:

Q:  If Nightblood were on Roshar would he be a Shardblade?

A:  Yes, they are exactly the same thing. He is a Shardblade that is twisted and is a lot more powerful than normal.

 

Q:  How much more powerful is Nightblood than a a regular Shardblade?

A:  I haven't actually quantified that in my own mind so can't give an accurate comparison at this point. I will say that when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things.

 

Q:  Does Nightblood act as an Honorblade?

A:  RAFO.

Could be that he's not Nalan's Honorblade, but someone else's...

Logically, it makes sense that he would be Nalan's just because of his "personality", but you never know.

Nalan may be willing to give him up so he can still move around in relative secrecy attacking surgebinders/KR's. Possibly he just bonded a regular old Shardblade.

That doesn't seem right though (Nightblood being his Honorblade specifically). I feel like Nightblood is different. I see him acting most closely to an Honorblade, granting surgebinding abilities (well, at least the ability to draw stormlight) and who knows what else. I think he was created after the initial Honorblades, maybe as an attempt to create something that would/could specifically destroy Odium? This is assuming, of course, that Vasher and Shashara are/were Heralds and that they remembered their time on Roshar, or at least Odium and his influences.

I agree with EMTrevor. I don't think emotionlessness is something that would happen over time. I think that in his mind, emotions hindered his ability to judge based on law alone and that he consciously had his emotions removed in order to, in his mind at least, make better judgements. Whether Nightblood was how he removed them or not, I have no idea. But I do think it was a conscious decision on his part, and not part of his decent into madness.

100% agree with TraSor!! Until proven for sure otherwise, I think that Vasher=Kelek and Shashara=Shalash. I actually just brought this up in another thread, then had to go back and edit to give credit to TraSor when I found this thread NIcely done, and upvote for you!

I don't know where the originated, but I do think that they came to Roshar and were worshipped as Heralds, then went to Nalthis when they abandoned the Oathpact, then returned back to Roshar.

Not sure about the memory situation or all that happened in between, but this just feels right to me.

I don't think Nightblood is what made Nalan emotionless, but the fact that he IS emotionless would allow him to wield it without getting killed. 

I'm searching for references to emotions and spiritual realm, but nothing so far. I swear I read something recently that gave me that impression though, so I'll keep hunting. Also, because spren are attracted to emotions, it leads me to believe that they are not necessarily OF emotion. Yes, there are spren that we've seen that are emotion related glory, exhaustion, anger etc. but I still don't think they are the origin of it if that makes sense.

Starting my re-read of Warbreaker now

Also, totally out in left field/crackpot theory realm here...but when I looked up nightblood in the coppermind, it referenced of course Vasher and Shashara. Here's the craziness, could Shashara BE Shalash? We don't know where she was before Warbreaker, but if she was a Herald on Roshar originally, then world hopped over to Nalthis for awhile, and now is back on Roshar, could that be why Vasher is now on Roshar?? He gets wind of the fact that she's revived and where she's at and wants to find her? Yes, he kills her in Warbreaker, but if nightblood is an Honorblade (or maybe Shashara's attempt to create an honorblade on Nalthis), and she got her soul severed, would that kill her? Or would she have just been sent back to Damnation to be tortured, popping back up right around the time TWoK started? Not sure of the exact "how" of this, but I feel like it could very well happen. It could be just coincidence, but their names are just too much alike. And both could have the nickname "Ash" very easily. Also, Shalash is of Creativity and Honesty and Shashara is obviously creative in helping to bring Nightblood to life and being one of the 5 scholars on Nalthis. Am I nuts with thinking this?

Shashara's life before she Returned is a mystery. Upon her Return, she was named Glorysinger by the Cult of the Returned.^[1] She became one of the Five Scholars. Vasher indicates that she was one of the more talented Awakeners in the group. She was instrumental in the creation of the one-Breath Command to create Lifeless. Shashara is also the one who discovered how to create a sentient Awakened object of steel, leading to the creation of Nightblood.^[2]

Edited to add: I also think Vasher/Zahel is Kalak/Kelek. I know there was another thread speculating who he might be (in terms of a Herald), but based on stuff I've seen on the coppermind, and WoR, seems likely. Not sure if that's where everyone else landed too or not. Just from some of the references like "Kelek's Breath" being a slang term on Roshar, and also, one of Vashar's names in Warbreaker is Kalad (love the similarity to Kaladin too) which is pretty darn close to Kalak/Kelek. 

Edit one more time to give credit to TraSor who already proposed the whole Shashara/Shalash and Vasher/Kelek thing in another thread I just found

Are we sure that without a soul there is no life. The way I interpreted the scene the fabrial revived Szeth after his soul had died, and was not reattached.  So I guess I'm disagreeing with everyone on here. My conjecture is that Nalan had his soul removed by Nightblood, and the fabrial was used to revive him without a soul. He then waited until Szeth had a similar fate, not a physical death, but a spiritual death, and used the fabrial to revive him and possibly destroy Szeth's emotions as well. (In the scene, it never explicitly states that he is experiencing emotion, even if he is acting like he has them-possibly out of habit.) This would basically work as a vaccine for anyone who wants to hold Nightblood, as there is no longer anything for him to draw out of the person.  Those are my thoughts.

 

 

Any sources for this?

Actually, this sums up perfectly where I was going with my #2 comment at the end of my original post. I just never finished the thought appropriately. I started that sentence/train of thought by thinking that if you CAN survive without a soul, then Szeth could wield Nightblood with no issues. BUT, with what we've seen thus far, it *appears* that severing the soul does indeed kill. The key word there is "appears". I get the impression same as you that Nalan has had some sort of spiritual death, and has no soul, causing the emotionlessness. 

You most definitely get the props/kudos/credit for stating all of this in a much more understandable way than I Upvote fo you too! 

I did read Warbreaker, but its been awhile so need to re-read it.

@Numb - I think Brandon said somewhere that you can figure out how breath correlates to stormlight, but don't think I've seen actual numbers on it.

But you bring up a good point about Nightblood not being created on Roshar. So rather than being strictly "of Odium", could he then fall into the category of possibly just being influenced by him since being on Roshar? The Cosmere stuff gets confusing for me, so please bear with me. I remember Nightblood not being itself inherently evil, but rather reacting to the temperament of those who wield him. That being said, I wasn't sure if something like that (an object) could in fact be influenced at all. I know people can, but not sure about "things". 

And the whole issue of Szeth not being able to use stormlight...there's only two things I can think of that would allow him to use Nightblood. One is if he ends up bonding a spren of his own, or becoming a "squire" of one of the orders, or two if Nightblood is in fact some type of honorblade. I do realize that seems impossible since Nightblood absorbs invenstiture, but what if he acts like an honorblade in the sense of forming the conduit that would allow Szeth to surgebind?

Numb brings up a good point about Zahel too...how is he taking in Stormlight/breath to survive without being bonded unless it does have to do with the Worldhopping he's done.

I remember too that there was some question about the whole bonding of Honorblades vs. Shardblades. I thought in the end you didn't have to "bond" Honorblades like you do Shardblades. Was that not the final conclusion? Blasted memory of mine!

Also, need to find the reference, but I swear Brandon said somewhere that one of the honorblades was VERY different from the others...

Edit: Ninja'd by Moogle on the whole...Nightblood still allows stormlight to be drawn in statement

Best.Deleted.Scene.Ever.

This may have been brought up before, but I didn't see anything specific in a search so sorry if it's duplicate.

I just re-read the WoB thread and found lots of interesting comments about our favorite crossover sword that appears at the end of WoR.

So I'm of the belief that he's actually an honorblade...or rather more accurately, the Odium influenced/version of an honorblade For now, I'm sticking with honorblade though for lack of a better/known term.

Based on WoB, there's some conflicting Q&A's, so thought I'd compile them here for your review and ease of viewing.

Has someone made this "official" theory already? Do you all agree or have other ideas?

Some additional comments/observations/questions...

1. As far as I know, this sword doesn't have a gem like other shardblades, thus supporting the fact that he's something special/different than a shardblade (although we know that shardblades/living spren as blades don't have them either).

2. If he "eats" investiture and souls, similar to the Larkin, how is Szeth going to wield him? I get the impression that emotions are more of a spiritual realm thing, and thought that I remember seeing that written somewhere, not sure if on a forum or in the book. If that's the case, since Darkness doesn't have emotion, does he know of a way to "supress" them or rather, be in the spiritual realm as little as possible without losing his soul? Can something even survive without a soul? Didn't think so, but not sure if that's been asked/confirmed before. I assume that you can't since severing the soul with a shardblade kills. Sorry these last couple questions were more my thinking out loud. I get the Cosmere stuff, but I don't *GET* it...ya get it? Basically I'm saying that I'm just not that smart LOL....think Taravangian on an average day.

Thanks all!

Edited to add a few more Q&A..couldn't get the quote thing to work right with the edit! Sorry!

Yes, thank you cem!!! Upvote for you too...I didn't even think to check the coppermind for these! /slaps forehead with palm of hand....

@RShara - Maybe add the rest of it in a new post and just add a huge notation at the bottom of the original one stating that the WoB are continued on page X of the thread due to space restrictions, then just keep adding new info the second post? Not the best idea I know, but that's all I got LOL

Before I start a new thread about this, I wanted to see if anyone knew the answer to this off the top of their heads...from the Chicago WoB incidentally

Q:  The prevailing theory on the 17th Shard is that Hoid worldhops using Shadesmar. I was wondering if you were willing to confirm or deny that?

A:  Hoid has indeed gotten between worlds before through Shadesmar.
Q:  And would you be willing to give us a hint as to how he does that?
A:  There are hints in the books. There is a hint in the very first cosmere book I released. [that would be Elantris] Which I thought was a huge hint, but so far I haven't seen anyone talking about it.  I thought for sure once people started figuring the cosmere, they would see the massive in-your-face hint I put in that book, but so far, as far as I know, no one has.  Now, the one [hint] about the map, that one I don't think is obvious. I know people have been trying to figure it out. It's going to be fun once you figure it out, but it's not something huge and obvious. The Elantris once was, like, enormously "HIIINT!"

I've read Elantris twice, however it was a llloooonnngg time ago, so I don't recall what Brandon would have been referencing here. Do any of you know? Another book I'll have to re-read after I finish the second go 'round of WoR.

Nice! Thank you I've been meaning to do this for the listener songs too, but haven't gotten around to it yet. If/when I do, I'll be sure to post it here, and maybe in a separate thread too. I feel like there's a lot of info in those stanza's that might be easier to sort out of they were in order. Thank you again...upvote for you for taking the time to do this, and for sharing

He annoyed the CRAP out of me!! I wanted to just reach into the book and smack him!!! But, I'm okay with that because I think Brandon fully intended for us to be irritated with him...and I think we did need to see him wrestle with his anger and prejudice against lighteyes, in particular Amaram. 

I'm really curious to see how he acts with Roshone in book 3 though. In theory, he's already "accepted" what he needs to do/how he should feel in regards to people/lighteyes he doesn't like. I'll be VERY disappointed if he backslides or has to go through all this stuff once AGAIN in order to progress. 

I'd really like to see him deal with his slave brands instead...although those are SUCH an integral part of him, I'm not sure he'll ever want to be rid of them. We shall see

Lots n lots of stuff I agree with most items named here, but my top three in order are:

1. Stick - This whole conversation/situation was THE BEST

2. Winds Pleasure

3. Boots

Good point! I didn't tie in the changing shape/colors to Shadesmar, but I should have. Shame on me! And I didn't link the "voidbringer shadow" comment either, so kudos on that one too!

I do wonder if they can still bond spren...and if so, how much flexibility they'll have since both are cognitive creatures. Or is it more likely they can't bond because of the fact that they're so closely related? Hopefully we'll find out in future books

So, I've been doing my TWoK reread, and found this interesting connection to Jasnah/Shadesmar:

From TWoK Axies Interlude:

Axies's tattoos weren't that noteworthy here. Perhaps he drew stares because of his blue nails and crystalline deep blue eyes. Aimians - even Siah Aimians - were rare. Or perhaps it was because he cast a shadow the wrong way. Toward light, instead of away from it. It was a small thing, and the shadows weren't long, with the sun so high. But those who noticed muttered or jumped out of the way.

And from Jasnah's perspective the night Gavilar was assassinated in WoR:

After walking a short time in the corridors, Jasnah noticed her shadow behaving oddly again. She sighed in annoyance as it pulled toward the three Stormlight lamps on the walls.

Granted, Jasnah's shadow was pulling towards Stormlight, whereas Axies was casting his shadown the wrong way in sunlight, but I still think there is some sort of connection here.

Possibly because Axies is studying the spren? Does the fact that he is so "involved" with them provide him with some sort of access to Shadesmar? Do you think he might have his own spren bond starting?

I wonder if this is an Axies trait, or an Aimian one?

Just wanted to throw this out there and see what y'all think?

This pairing does disturb me for some reason. No real reason why. I just don't picture them being fit for one another. I love each of them individually, just don't see them really connecting for some reason.