Vaspin

I know Shallan is a viewpoint character, she is going to be subject to much more scrutiny and criticism than other characters. That being said, all of the criticism I'm reading is juvenile and short-sighted. We're all allowed to dislike a character or the author's direction of a character. It's sad, however, that this is only book three and this thread exists because someone felt loathing and disgust and others had others levels of dislike. Shallan has possibly 7 more books in this series, and maybe other books, to show character growth, to overcome all of her flaws and disabilities. It's in the Words Journey before Destination. We can either be praising her incredible turn around as a character years from now or spewing more vitriol, but can we at least allow, for the moment, that nothing is certain? We don't know the person she'll be in the future, let's not condemn her now. Not everyone is doing this but if you aren't 100% certain your words can't be misconstrued as such then they are likely to be taken that way Shallan is not the ideal woman. She is a woman, a person. Her problems are not indicative of a problems for her gender. She's also not the only example of Sanderson's ability to write female characters. Navani is probably one of his best creations of female characters, I'll be glad for the day we get her PoV. There's more than one way to present a woman's perspective and we need to remember that.

They both wield the magic. Neither have access to surgebinding without the other. That's something Syl and Pattern confirm to Kaladin and Shallan respectively. The spren have shown to refer to themselves as both a collective and individual and all it would take is a higher order spren to be the one speaking, she would be more of an individual and speak more like a person, than an entity. The Stormfather acts like this and "the Mother" Wyndle refers to could be the spren in question( or some other higher level spren we don't know yet).

Nightblood wouldn't be a spren because he did not originate on Roshar, but from Nalthis

Nothing what the speaker says is relevant outside of the history of Roshar. The Heralds, Radiants, and any talk of the Desolations matters only to those born into this world. We have a a couple of bits that allude to the conflict on Roshar not being important in the Grand scheme of the Cosmere. The replier to the Letter is firm in his unwillingness to intervene in war and pleads with the Letter's author to not interfere as well. Hoid himself said he'd let the world be destroyed if it helped his greater purpose. But the speaker in question is very much so concerned with fate of Roshar. I'm on the side of it being a spren. I don't think the Heralds would refer to themselves in the third person and too much is said for anyone not present at the origin of the conflict to know. The lie of the Final Desolation, the fate of men, the knowledge of the loss of Surgebinding. We the readers also know that the spren have been watching & waiting for the potential Radiants. Syl, Pattern, and Wyndle have made references to this being an action of the spren, they are systematically searching for appropriate people to bond. It's also in the way it's said "...return to men the Shards they once bore" it refers to Shardblade/plate as Shards just like the Stormfather did upon bonding with Dalinar("You will be a Radiant with no Shards"). If we also assume the speaker in WoR is the same as WoK, then it lends more evidence of being a spren. "It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves." The first time Syl explains Kaladins ability to Surgebind she describes it as taking something away, but replacing it with something else. She also alludes to all the Radiants being broken.

I don't think any of them are Radiants yet. The Knights Radiant are the Ideals they speak, it doesn't seem right to bear the tittle if all the respsective Immortal Words are not spoken. Kaladin has considered himself a Radiant on at least three occasions, albeit one was a stall tactic. Someone already mentioned Dalinar placing the title on Amaram, and then looking for others after that fell through. Pattern actually says Shallan is not a Radiant at the end of WoR. Jasnah made a good point claiming she wasn't one, stating the Order is a now defunct organization. Her view is one of a cynic, but it still holds outside of her cynicism. The Knights Radiant had beliefs and convictions that they lived by, we assume. Watching Kaladin has made it clear he does not know the meaning of being a Windrunner yet. His mess of the third oath should be looked at as him growing to be the Radiant he is meant to be, but evidence he is not there yet. Same goes for Shallan. She is deep in denial concerning her life, which has shown to stunt and reverse her progression. The characters use the word freely because they have a partial understanding of the Knights Radiant. Not to far in the distant past everyone called them the Lost Radiants. Radiants is a term they are familiar with, but I'm sure if an actual Radiant were to look upon them, he'd simply call them all surgebinders

I like this idea. I'm glad to see someone from the community post in-depth thoughts from their reread. That being said I don't have anything to say, that wasn't already said by another, on your posts right now. I eagerly await more posts though

I'm just waiting for all the outrage that will ensue after Sanderson kills someone and they stay dead. You should all know he's capable and willing to kill off MAIN characters in his books

A few questions before I make any comments about this: 1) Are you saying Vorinism is somewhat involved in the making of Radiants? 2) What is your understanding of the Radiants discarding their shards and abandoning mankind? 3) What's the significance of the story in Vorinism of the people being chased from the Tranquiline Halls and to Roshar, Braize, and the Desolations? This is more about how those three things work in tandem with each other 4) Do you know there are other planets, besides Braize, in the same system as Roshar? Your theory is a novel one, but it's missing a lot of information given in the books and WoB. Because Brandon alludes more than once to Roshar being the current place the conflict is taking place.

From your talk of plot armor, you must not have read any of Sanderson's other books. He doesn't usually keep a character around for the sake of plot, or their status as a main character. In some of his other series he has shown he will end a character's story if it works for him. It seems a bit odd for Szeth and Jasnah to be revealed as not dead now, but I promise, as more books are published, some of us will be crying heavy tears over the fate of some of these characters

So are you only keeping to her character up to Way of Kings?

I'm not sure if you are being facetious or hyperbolic( maybe both). Never mind the fact you can make an educated guess to who the wanderer is by the nature of an educated guess, but there is a strong leaning to it being Hoid. In Taravangian's god mode, apparently nothing is outside of his reach. He sees all and knows all that he wants to. I believe he is referring to Hoid. That is not the point though. Even if it's not Hoid, the reason for mentioning this piece of information is to say there is a man whose very existence gives omniscient-Taravangian pause. It's supposed to make you wonder about the nature of his discovery. Which adds more weight to Hoid being the man in question, because his goals are both mysterious and have Cosmere-related implications.

Eh in the moment of when I'm writing and thinking, I'm reacting to what's being said. I can come off aggressive though. But I'm actually enjoying this. You've made me really look at some of my thoughts concerning this series and have helped spark some new ones. All is fine

I don't plan to add anymore sources because every time I did they were overlooked or some kind of way discounted. For example I quoted what Moogle said about the wording of the Oathpact, but I went on to say no similar wording would work either, however that was ignored and the focus was that I singled out his exact wording, but that's my explanation for why I'm not citing things anymore in this thread. My information about the Returned I got from Warbreaker, when Vasher was explaining to Vivenna about Breath and how it manifests. They are described as BioChromatic entities. His exact words are "Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host. That is not a description of a human. There is no place which says "Returned aren't human," but humans can't do what Returned people can, nor do they come into existence the same way as humans. If you want to make the argument Returned are human, then that must mean kandra are as well because to me there are similarities between the two. And again I've always said their Breath was used for healing, but they could pursuit any goals/objectives they chose. But let's get one thing clear: they are not immortal. Immortality means you can not die, but the Returned are able to be killed like anyone else. They will not suffer from diseases or aging, but a knife through the heart and they are gone. Also you can find something comparable in most things, being strong, ageless, and fast can be applied to a few beings in the Cosmere, it does not, however, make all of those things similar. If you want to say there are similar traits between the two go ahead, but it will not mean the Heralds and Returned are similar. But agree to disagree if we must. There's a WoB which he alludes to them not being able to surgebind without the Honorblades. And how is it pedantic when it clearly says they are more powerful and it would be from someone who would know because Kalak was their to receive his Honorblade and is aware of the Radiants existence and their capabilities. I'm the one being called pedantic, but I quoted the book and Moogle says "in the opinion of one Herald, which is not the same thing as being better." Power is a descriptive word he used and the context of which he was spoke was saying one Blade is of higher level than the other. The only way that it could not be qualified as being inferior is because spren-Blades, not even Shardblades, can change their shape completely, but that is looking at the use of spren-Blades in a completely different fashion than their normal use from our knowledge. And I say they aren't invested because they have never held the the power of Honor, if so they would be Slivers, I think that's the correct term, but they have already been classified as not being Slivers. And if Slivers is the wrong thing to think of them as, I just don't think Shards work like that. I really do not think they can Invest directly into a human, or any intelligent being, and then not be called a Sliver. You keep saying the Radiants are part of the Oathpact but it does not say that anywhere. Can you at least admit that? In the WoB you've quoted, it says Shardblades not Radiants. Honorblades retain their form when they form because they were made to be swords. It's the same reason spren stay in Shardblade form when their bonds are broken it's the form they were trying to take. I do think they both come from the place, spren/Shardblades & Honorblades. Taln was described as being wet as he walked into Alethkar and the Blades are described as being covered slightly in water. Somehow they are on another world and get transported through Shardpools. Don't know enough about Shardpools and how spren turn themselves into Blades so I'm not going to pass that off as fact

Why would it even be worded like that? It wouldn't make sense for those being the words for the Oathpact, or anything similar. If that was the case it would actually be broken because they weren't wielding the Blades any longer after the last Desolation and yet they are still alive. I keep saying you can't compare Honorblades to Shard/spren-Blades, because they are different. I think something you have failed to realize is Honorblades aren't made from spren. It's very likely they are a piece of Honor himself. It explains why the spren are able to mimic the Honorblades since they are pieces Honor as well, albeit of a lower magnitude. But it would also explain why Honorblades do not disappear when they are dropped and Shardblades/spren-Blades do. The other Blades are made up of a sentient entity, they are not actual Blades, they just somehow manage to take the form of one and when they are no longer being used in that form they disappear. Honorblades are This may also be why Shardblades are included in the Oathpact, because the manner in which the Honorblades came to be would also apply to the Shardblades since they are a version of them. You tried to lessen Brandon saying everything is based off of the Honorblades, but you really should not. You want to make Honorblades out to be just as good as Shardblades, but they will always be copies of the original design. But never as good as the original The text itself says claims they are better than Shardblades. The Breath of a Returned is for the purpose of healing someone. They can do whatever they want, but that's why they were given the Breath and allowed to come back. They also are not immortal nor do they have an ability to come back to life, Returned are people who haven't died yet technically and they don't age. There are also no visible similarities between Heralds and Return. I'm not sure where you are making up these comparisons from but they don't seem right. For instance, even though they are capable of more than humans the Heralds are still men and women( I assume). The Returned are a different race altogether. The Heralds don't seem to be Invested directly from any Shard, only through the Honorblades, whereas being inherently gifted with a piece of Endowment is the basis for being a Returned. If the Heralds had been Invested, as you say, then they would be able to surgebind without the use of the Honorblades but we know this to be false. I will posit, though, any abilities they have are because they are not from Roshar

They walked away from their oaths, like the Radiants did in the Recreance. This should break their connection to the Oathpact, since it works for Radiants. I think the Heralds are stronger/get other powers/are immortal regardless of whether or not they're part of the Oathpact - the Oathpact just lets them come back to life when they die. I have little evidence for or against this, however. I just think that you're making the Oathpact out to be a bigger deal than it is. The Oathpact is a bigger deal than you give it credit for. The Heralds, who made it their lives to lead and teach humanity, made a decision to attempt to shatter it. It's also mentioned in Kaladin's dream as he is flying around with the Stormfather. There is a reason why in the beginning of the book what you're told first is about the Heralds, the Honorblades, and the Oathpact. First, before all else! All of those play an important role in what is building to be the main conflict of the series. It mentions the enemy who is trapped, which we assume is Odium, seemingly because of the Oathpact. This frustratingly short section of the book is absolutely important if you want to understand the true conflict. Also the Radiants are not part of the Oathpact. You already have a quote from Brandon where he says there are only two parties involved: The Heralds and Honor. He does, however, mention the Shardblades. I have no idea how the Blades fit into the Oathpact, but if it's what he says then it's what he says. It can't be the Radiants, since they were not created until after and it wasn't the design of Honor for the spren to get involved. You can't liken the Returned to the Heralds, different Shards different intents. The point of the Returned is that they are given an oppurtunity to heal a person. One magnificent Breath at their disposal. Endowment. Brandon is always talking about the Shard's intent determines the manner in how it influences the world around it. Intent for the Shard of Honor seems to be about upholding an Ideal, being steadfast in your own beliefs. The Heralds are living ideals, Jez: protecting, Nale: justice, Vedel: love, etc. They are the Heralds of the Almighty because their life is about upholding a belief.

Well I'm glad I made sense somewhat, I was beginning to think it was all for naught. But here you go Moogle: Now if we're to draw any conclusion based on this scene alone, Jezrien was telling him the conditions for ending the Oathpact. At this point in the story we know nothing about surgebinding or bonds. All we know is they left their swords and went their separate ways, those were the conditions for breaking the Oathpact. You have to look at this in just the context of this scene. Nothing else in book one or book two relates to this at all. Saying it was symbolical. they didn't want to surgebind, or anything else stated is making an assumption not based on the facts of the moment.

This idea is what Pattern is saying Shallan does, but it does not have much to do with how she progresses as a Radiant. You're point has more to do with the conversations Pattern and Shallan have about people and there usage of lies. It also has to do with why Pattern chose Shallan to bond with. Her natural ability to shape and create lies would be very useful in Lightweaving. However, in order to progress she has to realize things about herself. In her case she has to stop being in denial about her past, but that may not be the same for other Lightweavers. It's all about self-awareness *Edit for hoser's post* I will admit it is hypocritical of me to denounce your source, while still trying to use mine. You made a good point about the impact of Way of Kings on the conduct and Ideals of the Orders. I guess my biggest issue with the theory of the book being relevant to a Radiant's progression is simply how Kal and Shallan go about it. It literally says Kal knew the Second Ideal even though he'd never heard it before and Shallan stumbles into admitting being afraid. Even in book two, when Kal reasons out the Third Ideal it feels organic, as if that was the way it always happens. You and your spren are supposed to journey there together

Not going to do another long post as all my evidence has already been stated. But the reason why the Heralds, Honorblades, and the Oathpact are all connected is based on two reasons. First is what Brandon says, one of his answers from a signing, also above, says that the Honorblades are the basis for everything. Bonds, surges, Ideals, all of it. We don't know how or why but it is what he says. Second, there is the prelude. I never see people talk about it, but it holds much information concerning the story. One of the main themes of it is the Honorblades. Right there, in the prelude they suppose the Oathpact would end if they leave the Blades. We know they were given the Blades from Honor himself, a piece of himself. That says there is a connection between the Honorblades, the Heralds, and the Oathpact. At the end of the book it's revealed the Desolation is still coming despite their actions. And also Brandon says the Oathpact isn't shattered. If there was a connection between the 3 before it was "shattered" then that same connection would still be there after it was proven their efforts had failed. And lets not forget one of the Heralds went back for his Blade, why would he do so if the bond was broken? And if there's no connection between the Honorblades and the Oathpact, what would be the point of leaving them? I don't understand the people who said there was no implication from the quotes or what I stated. They are bound to the Greater Rosharan System for the last 4500 years, everything is based off of the Honorblades, and the Oathpact is not shattered. He even says they work differently than everything else, so trying to judge from our knowledge of Shardblades will not work. Edit: We're talking about the nature of bonds, talking about Hemalurgy hacking is a non sequitur. You could also say you can lend your live-spren Blade to others but its not part of the discussion.

I went through and found every mention, I think, of there still being a bond between the Heralds and the honorblades As you can see the Oathpact remains and the Heralds retain their bonds to the Honorblades irregardless to the actions they took in the prelude. There is also a mention of Shardblades and Honorblades having a distinct difference. He only gives one example to show the difference, I don't think he's trying to reveal much about the Honorblades now. He only wants us to be aware we can't think of them as like Shardblades. here's another references to this idea: This also applies to Syl. Just because she made a comment about how the Honorblades work does not mean she knows intimate details about them. We thought ten heartbeats was a firm rule but that only applies to dead-spren Blades. The characters on Roshar are not fully aware of the manner in which Investiture manifests itself. They think they do, but they are so far removed from the origin from which all of this came from. But as I said, the Honorblades are not comparable to Shardblades. The function and scope behind them is what will be a factor on the plot of the story. The Honorblades, the Oathpact, and the Heralds were, and still are, connected. It keeps them bound to the Rosharan system and is most likely the reason behind their immortality. In the prelude Kalak talk about dieing as though he had experienced it multiple times. No Shardblade can even come close to this. Nightblood is a "Shardblade" yes but how it functions in comparison is different. Nightblood feeds both off of the wielder and external Investiture. It was also not made by a Shard but people from a Shardworld, whereas Honorblades come directly from Honor himself. Nightblood could be thought of as an unintentional creation, conversely, the Honorblades have a defined purpose and function and won't kill the wielder. So I will concede Syl is correct in her description of how Honorblades work for anyone not a Herald because those Blades were made for them. The Heralds fought in the Desolations. They said it. They aren't Honorbooks, they are Honorblades. Yes, they taught men to fight and protect themselves, but why be given weapons if not to be used? As to your quote about the arrival of the Knights, that was outside of the Heralds you are correct. But the spren saw the Heralds and wanted to mimic them. The entire existence of the Radiants is built on the Heralds and their actions. And for your argument on dead-spren Blades being comparable to live-spren Blades....take a second and think about that. Anyone can use one of the dead-spren Blades, it matters not your beliefs or your intent. Only one person can use a live-spren Blade. And even though anyone can use an Honorblade like a dead-spren Blade, they wee meant for the Heralds so it is only being used in its basic form. You seem to equate eye color change as being an important factor in the nature of these bonds we're discussing. I would say it isn't. But this probably the one area in which I don't have anything to dissuade you of this notion except to compare each of the seperate bonds and see how they differ in function. If you can't see it form that, then there's nothing else I can say

You've not given me any, all we have is Dalinar saying the book was something the Radiants used, but he couldn't possibly know that for sure. I also wasn't saying Kaladin wasn't supposed to struggle. I was stating he struggled alone for the most part. And what help he did get came in the form of Vasher and Hoid. They helped lead him to where he needed to be mentally, Vasher is debatable as to how much help he actually provided to Kaladin on an emotional/mental level. But even in book one when Teft is telling Kal about the Immortal Words, he was telling them to him because of his history with the Envisagers, it had nothing to do with the Way of Kings book. You are missing the point about the Lightweavers. There can't be any parables for them because their progression is extremely relative. You say there could be some story relating to Shallan's issue, but how could those apply to every other past or future Lightweaver? I quoted the passage from the Words of Radiance to show the relative nature between the Lightweavers and their progression. General application is almost impossible with things of a conditional nature. And Brandon has a hard rule about numbers. 16, 10, I think 3 is another one. He won't give you a number and then change it later on. 16 shards, 10 Orders, 5 Ideals, those are set and will not be changed. Also I talked about surgebinders existing pre-Way of Kings to say people were bonding spren before the book was ever written. And there is no evidence which suggests the manner in which spren bond humans has changed over the years. Even after the Recreance, they still have the same methods. The book probably helped give them a sense of purpose and how they should be acting. But it's the spren, it's all about the spren. They embody the Ideals. They find people they think embody them as well. But the spren are the personification of said Ideals, in order for their to be a true bond their bondmates must grow to embody them truly as well. And thus we have the Immortal Words. That is why I don't think the book has anything to do with the Ideals. The book was about trying to teach people how to behave themselves in an honorable manner. The Ideals are about the bonds between people and the spren attracted to them

I think you're being too literal about honorblades "feeding" off of Stormlight. Besides that, the honorblades are bonded to the Heralds. They are what signify the Oathpact. That's what part of the prelude was about, showing us there is a connection between the Heralds and the honorblades. Brandon has said it himself, people can use/bond the honorblades, but it doesn't take away the original bond between the Heralds. They are the original Blades, comparing them to Shardblades is backwards. Shardblades are similar but as for the capabilities and limits of the two I would have to believe those differences are distinct if not massive. .....they bring news, but not war? Again the prelude states they were fighting in the Desolations not judging or watching from afar. I'm sure they gained their names because of the timing of their arrival and how it coincided with the Desolations. But everything starts with them, Shardblades, the Knights, surgebinding. The spren wanted to mimic them. We also absolutely know why honorblades and spren give a person the capacity to surgebind. Honorblades are pieces of Honor and so are spren. Honor is the one responsible for surges. The two are capable of tapping into the magic system he established but without a bond nothing will happen. I'm sure you meant the spren when you referred to Shardblades allowing people to surgebind. Also it wasn't him saying the Third Ideal that gave him blue eyes, it had already been mentioned before that: Words of Radiance Ch. 2 You are focusing on the wrong aspects of this. All the things you mentioned are the physical manifestations of the bond. While helpful in establishing there is a bond it is seemingly inconsequential to understanding the nature of the bond.

*shrug* I feel like there is too much evidence elsewhere to say the Way of Kings is for the Radiants. You make valid points, but shouldn't we see more influence then if the parables pertain to the Ideals? Kaladin struggles through most of book two trying to find his way and there is no mention of a parable pertaining to his situation. In Shallan's case it's an entirely personal matter regarding her past. She was also more of a Radiant in her younger days than she is now. We've seen a few of the would-be Radiants already and there is no substantial connections between them, their Ideals, and the book Way of Kings. Also don't forget, we saw the vision in which Nohadon began his journey to writing the book. He was troubled by the state of men pre- and post-Desolation. He was struggling to find a way to change the situation for the better. At the end of the vision he was only concerned with how to rebuild. And I said this before but it was not the book, but one of the Heralds who was responsible for the Orders coming into existence. It's not that you don't have an argument for your thoughts, but there is a substantial amount of evidence to explain away the purpose you think the book holds for the Knights Radiant

I think you're missing out on the theme here. It's about bonds. Spren bond with humans to acheive something greater assumingly. The honorblades are bonded to the Heralds. Syl's comments are from her knowledge alone and even that is fragmented. She knows they belong to the Heralds, but nothing pass that. Just like non-Radiant Rosharans can not use dead-spren Blades to their full potential the same should be true for anyone who uses an honorblade. Also I think it's safe to assume the Heralds aren't "normal" people.

Did people in the book miss the mention in the book about how the Lightweavers progression works? It's not about "truths." Pattern says Shallan uses her lies to mask the truths about herself, which is how this all began presumably, but she needs to be able to see beyond the lies personally. It has less to do with what is going on in her life and everything to do with her knowledge of herself, self-awareness. Pattern describes them as truths because he thinks of such ideas as being either a truth or a falsity. It's unlikely his book has a minimal impact on the Orders for a couple of reasons. One, the parables work towards teaching the reader the proper way to treat other people, especially those in a position of authority. This is not how the Orders function. They are not positions of authority but guardians for the people in varying ways. Second, we know of two Orders that are fundamentally are at odds with each other, Windrunners and Skybreakers. I wouldn't think "Way of Kings" would be seen as being cohesive if it contained parables which counteracted each other. And also the most glaring piece of evidence against your working theory is the Lightweavers themselves. Words of Radiance, Ch. 57 "To Kill the Wind" This applies to Nohadon's book and my earlier stated point. There are no words which can help any of the Orders progress in their bond, least of which the Lightweavers.

If the question is why are people with Nahel bonds better at Stormlight retention, then you are correct it is about the bond. But it is not solely the spren bond, I think, the Heralds probably are able to use Stormlight as efficiently as the Radiants. We have to remember any evidence towards the manner in which Honorblades work will be flawed as the Blades are being used by lesser people