Dark_Sun77

10 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

Recently read this and it reminded me of a thread (maybe it was this one?)

from Oathbringer 

So this quote implies that the “Real” Shallan is false. That there is something more (mystery Mraize is keeping)

 

there is also this 

There is always another secret!

Great add!

After reading everyone's comments, I could totally see Navani becoming a Bond Smith and at some point bonding with the Sibling.  That would totally make sense and it would be as if a new power was being added to the mix.  This theory is probably more probable than her becoming a dustbringer.  I don't think she will become a truth watcher.

On 10/21/2020 at 2:43 PM, AniaX said:

And what about Adolin being in two orders?? He do the Stoneward oath and then Maya "revive" and Adolin will be in two orders. What about that? 

After reading all the comments and considering all the different arguments, I think I will revise my theory:

I theorize that Adolin will become both an edgedancer (bonding with Maya) and also become a Stoneward at some point over the two arcs.

He may bond 1 in the first arc (books 1-5) and may bond a 2nd one in the 2nd arc (books 6-10).

I do believe we will see more mixing of magic systems such as my proposed theory here.

1 hour ago, AniaX said:

And what about Adolin being in two orders?? He do the Stoneward oath and then Maya "revive" and Adolin will be in two orders. What about that? 

I have been thinking that very thing for the past week. Sanderson does like to mix magic systems.  Adolin is a perfect one to do this with.

On 10/11/2020 at 2:38 PM, Knight of Iron said:

I'm a pop in on this thread as the relevant WOBs person.

Relevant WOBs:

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Sparkle Hearts

The Girl That Looked Up. Is that a real story that happened in Roshar? Or just a metaphor?

Brandon Sanderson

So, Hoid heard it from someone. He did not make it up.

Sparkle Hearts

Because I think Shallan told the story...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he told the story, too- He knew the story, she knew the story... What you're asking is if it's actually historical?

Sparkle Hearts

Yes. Did it happen?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll give you a RAFO. Because there's actually a little bit to it that I can't talk about. That probably tells you more than I even should already...

There are some weird things about that story, particularly the version that Hoid is involved in.

...Shallan tells half the story, and then later on, Hoid comes, and the story happens again differently. But there are weird things when Hoid is involved in the story that are relevant.

WorldCon 76 (Aug. 18, 2018)

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Questioner

So, with the story that Shallan told with the girl in the red scarf? Is that relevant at all? Or is it just unimportant? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's very relevant. 

Footnote: The story in question is "The Girl Who Looked Up".
Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

And a few more that are RAFO's, I'm afraid. Neither yes or no.

Wow, thanks for the words of Brandon additions!  They seem to actually support my suggested theory here. Love it.

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

I bolded the parts that I thought were particularly applicable to Adolin, and underlined the parts that don't fit that well. Some parts fit quite well, and others not so much. Adolin's ambition of dueling shows a solo streak, not teamwork, but the prowess, athleticism, and competition are right in line. I don't know of him ever taking on tasks, or enormous projects, so that goes against him. We're seeing him as a friend, and that's clearly what you've picked up on.

Let's do the same for Edgedancer:

There are a few things, but not as much lends itself to Edgedancers, when compared to Stonewards.

I had a similar thought about Navani. Everyone seems to think she's going to bond the Sibling, which is a good guess, and there are reasons to think she will. But man, just read the Truthwatcher description and tell me it doesn't describe Navani to a T:

I think her examination of fabrials is likely to draw a Truthwatcher spren.

I'm with you in one way, at least: I don't think Maya will be willing to bond Adolin, unless it's the only way to revive her in any capacity. 

Thanks for the fantastic addition to my post.  Since Renarin is already a Truthwatcher and he is being set up to play a big role in the book, and we already have Dalinar as a bond smith, I imagine that Navanii will be a Dustbringer.  She fits the description.  It is my assumption that each of Sanderson's books will feature someone from a different order of Knights Radiance.  10 books,10 main characters (who are featured), 10 Orders of knights explored. But we will see.

As I have not keep up with the forums, I apologize if another has already suggested this theory.

Theory: If Adolin becomes an order of Knights Radiance I believe he will become a Stoneward.  Read the description.  He absolutely fits the description.   

Thoughts? Countertheories?

Quote

Quote

7 hours ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

THAT IS SO COOL!!!!

But how do you figure that's what the ghostbloods are trying to do?

 

Chapter 13: When Mraze is talking to "the Three":

15 hours ago, Bliev said:

@Dark_Sun77 I believe Brandon confirmed that her father and mother were biologically related to her.

Ok, good to know.

I have not been monitoring the threads in Oathbringer, so I don't know if anyone else already proposed this theory, but I hope not.

I have been looking more into what order of Knights Radiance Navani would become if she bonded a spren.  She constantly says, "I will bring order from chaos" in Oathbringer, and she loves taking things apart.  These are both key indicators that Navani will become a Dustbringer. 

Thoughts? Countertheories?

Another thing I just picked up is that Shallan might have been adopted by house Davar.  In book three, when she put her hand on the heart of the revel, she was an urchin when she was hunger meaning that one of her personalities holds that she was a street urchin at some point in her life.

On 10/4/2020 at 10:44 AM, jharter said:

Commenting on theory 1, I too could believe that Shallan has the royal locks, and the reader is intentionally lead to believe lightweaving changes her hair color. In fact, I think Shallan herself assumes it's a lightweaving related ability and only Formless really understands. 

Going off of the paraphrased Warbreaker annotations on Coppermind,  "Like Returned, wearers of the Royal Locks can also change other aspects of the physical appearance. With practice, wearers are able to change their age, height, and body shape." So, if this theory already assumes Shallan has royal locks, we can assume that even her aging and basic appearance may be a manifestation. 

Assuming that, I believe it's possible that Shallan is not related to the other Davar's and replaced the original Shallan sometime during the original's childhood. I believe Formless is her true identity and that she's been working with the Ghostbloods since the beginning. Formless has taken care to manipulate her age and appearance to grow and mature as the original Shallan would have, but is likely much older. If she has access to royal locks then she would have access to this ability.

Related to this theory, I don't know if bonding Pattern was part of the Ghostblood's plans or not, but I think it's possible. Shallan also references heightened sense for color, even saying Veil only sees plain, dim ones. It's not impossible that Formless has access to breath and heightening. Pairing Formless with Pattern would be a viable way to give her access to stormlight as a replacement for breath (although I don't fully understand if a bond is needed for someone with breath to make use of stormlight, or to what degree it improves its potency).

Other related questions to the theory that I don't have reason to assume one way or the other would be "Is Formless a Returned?," "Why is Formless working with the Ghostbloods?", "Why was Shallan an important role to usurp?", ect. 

In my head cannon, I really want Formless's dark unforgivable secret to be related to either stealing the breath or the lives of thousands of people. That would give her a vested interest in the Ghostblood's mission to get stormlight off of Roshar and replace more controversial investiture systems like breath.

In my SUPER fanfiction head cannon, Formless is Shashara, Vasher didn't kill her like he thought. Creating Night blood and the tax his power takes, let alone the lives he's taken, may be what's haunting her and why she's trying to find a better investiture system for her research. She may be using the Ghostbloods since they have a synergistic goal. 

 

I love what you have added to this theory. Thanks for jumping in.

Her father would have had to have been a king and his whole family would have the royal locks as heirs of the throne. So potentially it could work. A bit of a stretch though.

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Uhhh... Wasn't it confirmed that The Girl who Looked Up is the story of the Ashynite refugees (or their descendants) deciding to leave Shinovar and conquer the rest of Roshar?

If not, that's what it really feels like to me at face value...

If it has been confirmed, please list the source.  That would be what it seems like at face value, but try reading the two instances of "the girl that looked up" with my theory in mind after you have read chapter 13 of Rhythm of War.  Chapter 13 of RoW makes it seem much more plausible.

My theory: The "Girl that looked up" is a story of travel from Nalthis to Roshar and then the bringing back of Stormlight to Nalthis.

Read the story in both places, in the chapter called "the girl that looked up" (pg. 256) and again when Wit talks about it with Shallan (pg. 789) in "the girl who stood up" and you will see the details.  The girl's hair is white hair.  The mention of all the gruesome statues.  The "vibrant red scarf" that flaps in the phantom wind that she wears that is mentioned all the time.  The mention of seeing colors for the first time. Etc...  "The Wall" in this interpretation would be shadesmar.  Read both stories and I believe you will see the interesting details.

Lot's of implications if this is true. One such would be that perhaps Nalthis' shards were splintered as this is known as the "land of darkness."  From the land of "colors" to the "land of darkness."  This would make sense knowing what happened to Sel.  

Wit's version of the story seems to me to focus on the bringing of stormlight from one side of the wall (Roshar) "to the other side" (Nalthis). This is exactly what the Ghostbloods are trying to do.

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

.Why does she look Veden?

About my theory #1: If my theory is true, "formless" or another "part" of Shallan would be the one that looks like a royal person from Nalthis.  Shallan would have been a "part" that formed at the time of the traumatic event to protect her from it.  Of course, all "parts" of Shallan carry an aspect of who she is, and when integration occurs, nothing will be lost.  I do need to look into the fact that the rest of her family should fit the description of a person from Nalthis.  I'll look into that. 

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why did standard Rosharan traveling performers know the story?

About my theory #2

To me, the story of the "Girl that looked up" is very likely a story of the migration from Nalthis to Roshar whether or not it is about Shallan, although the story sure activates a ton of memory and emotion inside of Shallan containing to her past.  Read the story in both places and you will see the details.  The girl's hair is white hair.  The mention of all the gruesome statues.  The scarf that she wears that is mentioned all the time.  The mention of seeing colors for the first time. Etc...  If this is true, then perhaps Nalthis' shards have been splintered as this is known as the "land of darkness." This story has been mentioned twice now.  Wit used this story to talk to Shallan about her "parts," her past, and her needed integration. The story is about the bringing of Stormlight from one side of the wall (shadesmar) "to the other side." This is exactly what the Ghostbloods are trying to do.  So, you bring up a good question. But I don't think it disproves the theory. 

Here are three of theories after reading up to Chapter 13 on Shallan's Origin.  Theory 1 may be true even if theory 2 and theory 3 are not.

1.) Shallan (and her family) are from Nalthis (or have ancestors from there).  The hair changing gives evidence here. Veil's seeing muted colors gives evidence. Various "parts" of Shallan have various levels of awakening. One of her forms will have white hair "Formless" maybe.

2.) The "girl who looked up" is Shallan's origin story. "The wall" is shadesmar.  The one side is Nalthis while the otherside is Roshar. Something about her going from Nalthis to Roshar caused a catastrophe to occur on Nalthis. The storms knocked down the wall. "Formless" may hold this story.

3.) These are the secrets that Mraize will share with her after she completed her mission to Lasting Integrity.

Interesting idea although I pretty sure that Honor was the architect behind the oathpact due to what Syl says on page 913, "I've remembered what kind of spren I am...I bind things...I am an Honor spren. Spirit of Oaths. Of promises. Of nobility." It seems like an "honorable"/"noble" thing for the heralds to do. The heralds chose to suffer so that the rest did not have to. A few to suffer so others could have a chance at survival. Still, I think it was still a really rotten deal. Points to Odium on this one, for he had the better side of the deal on this one.

Macen:

I really like your theory there.  Well said.

The Count:

I am not implying that the parshmen are the only type of "Voidbringer".  I think Voidbringer is a general term.  The Unmade (as heard talked about in the vision with Noholdon (where Dalinar sees the aftermath of a desolation), The giant fire rocks, perhaps controlled chasm fiends, and the Parshmen (changed into something much worse.) among other things.  I also said that they might just be tools utilized by voidbringers rather than Voidbringers themselves.

WeiryWriter  you make a good point.  I guess I should split up the theory into two theories (I have revised my thread to reflect this). This is closer to what I desired to express with my first post.  Thanks for the feedback. 

Think about the surprise from everyone when their slaves who they have regarded as harmless all their lives transform into extremely dangerous remote controlled pawns of destruction.  If this theory turns out to be correct then this will be an epic heart-pounding chapter to read!

"They were suddenly dangerous. Like a calm day that became a tempest." "...I believe it may reference the Voidbringers" page 471: Chapter 30: Darkness Unseen.

"They changed, even as we fought them. Like shadows they were, that can transform as the flame dances. Never underestimate them because of what you first see."  page 499: Chapter 33: Cymatics.

"Born from the darkness, they bear its taint still, marked upon their bodies much as the fire marks their souls." Page 553: Chapter 38: Envisager

First Theory: Odium will take control of the peaceful Parshmen and suddenly change their form and they will be very dangerous.  (Possibly used as Voidbringers or just one piece of a much more complex puzzle.)

Second Theory: This was a plan that Odium has had for a long time (possibly after the Last Desolation or thereabouts).  He foresaw that humanity could not pass up on perfect obedient slaves and somehow tampered with regular Parshendi to make them like Parshmen instead. Now humans took the Parshmen as slaves and spread them across Roshar (Odium did not do this himself rather knew it would happen due to man's nature).

Third Theory: These new parshmen will be able to utilize stormlight in some fashion or another.  (Not so sure about this one.)

Now to combine the theories: Parshmen have been strategically placed (see the second theory for what I mean by this) all over Roshar by Odium, and that in a moment Odium will utilize their telepathic ability and change them into a very dangerous form and then use them as "Voidbringers" or tools of them to accomplish his purposes.  Odium or a servant of his will have complete control over them and use them in whatever way he sees fit.

I think this is part of the reason why Jashnah has discovered that Parshendi are possibly the Voidbringers. Perhaps it is not the Parshendi race rather the parshmen.

Some other quotes that might help this theory: (The green are my comments)

"Death upon the lips. Sound upon the air. Char upon the skin." Page 567: Chapter 40: Eyes of Red and Blue.

(The sound upon the air could be the way Odium or a servant issues his commands to the Parshmen who have been changed into something much more dangerous.)

"They take away the light, wherever they lurk. Skin that is burned." Page 676: Chapter 48: Strawberry

(They will be able to take in stormlight and use it for evil)

"Flame and Char. Skin so terrible. Eyes like pits of blackness." Page 696. Chapter 50: Backbreaker Powder.

(The dark eyes could reflect that they do not have have control over themselves but are rather animated by Odium or a servant of his)

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From another book where this sort of thing occurred: Spoiler from the book A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge.  If anyone has read the book Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge then you will be familiar with this concept as demonstrated with Skode Riders and the Blight.