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I am more inclined to agree with Aleksiel here... It seems that her values of right and wrong are derived from deep down what Kaladin believes to be right or wrong. 

Its interesting that Wyndle and Pattern seem to have more of an idea with what is happening than Syl... They know what their Radiant's are capable of, know of the politics in the Shadesmar etc.

 

I believe Syl's knoweldge about everything is more affected because, as stated, she disobeyed the Stormfather in order to come to the physical Realm and bond with Kal. Wyndle was assisted by the rest of his kind (forgot what kind of spren he is...) specifically so he won't lose so much of himself and his memory while coming to the physical Realm. As for Pattern, while it wasn't quite said, it was implied that his bonding to Shallan was not forbidden and maybe even supported by the rest of the Cryptics, much like Wyndle.

 

If that's correct, I guess it begs the question of whether the Stormfather is the father of only honorspren, all spren associated to some degree with Honor, or all spren in general (which I find highly unlikely, as apparently not all spren where forbidden to come).

Follow up question: how does sending a trained killer like Szeth loose on the world with an Honorblade serve any kind of useful purpose in the whole "Nah, Desolations aren't a thing, man. Whatevs" plan? So if he's right, you've pretty much guaranteed he's coming back for vengeance. Makes me wonder if being Truthless involves training with -all- the Honorblades... but where would they get the Stormlight?

 

Yeah, that's been bothering me, too. What's the point of the whole thing? it can't be only a means for deterring people from warning against the return of the Voidbringers....but if they wanted to make someone train with Honorblade\s, there are far easier and healthier ways to go about it then what Szeth's been through. or maybe the punishment has been so rough because he was already chosen to wield a Blade? I mean, after being cast from Shin, where would he lear to fight so well, especially since it's not like he wanted to be an efficient kiler, so can't really see him walking around training himself to fight better...

 

about the Stormlight- while there might not be Highstorms in Shin, they are regular in the rest of Roshar, so I don't think getting infused spheres would be all that much of a problem.

I don't think Dalinar has an Honorblade, because it screams when he drops it, as Arook said. Also, he threatened Amaram with his Blade, and neither Kaladin nor Amaram acted as if the blade was anything special. With Amaram's obsession with the Heralds, you'd think he would recognize an Honorblade. But that's not to say that he didn't recognize it and just cover up his surprise really well.

 

Also, do we know who Nalan was talking to in the prologue? My guess is that he was talking to some servant of Jezrien, because he says Szeth has "my lord's own Blade." Szeth is a Windrunner and Jezrien was said to be head of the Windrunners. 

 

Another question I think is important is: How did Szeth get his Blade? Did he steal it, and that's why he's Truthless? Was he given it after becoming Truthless? If so, is every Truthless given an Honorblade? Why? there's so much more still to find out

 

Szeth was made Truthless for raising a (supposedly) false alarm about the return of Surgebinders and Voidbringers. It was strongly implied that the stone shamans gave him that Honorblade.

My question is what does it actually mean to be Truthless? What would make a person believe he has to obey every command, no matter how awful, or face worse consequences then simply dying?

There are no KR in the Nohadon vision, only surgebinders. And Teft told Kaladin KR based their ideas on some old book written by a king whose name Teft couldn't remember. One excerpt of Way of Kings explained that to Nohadon all men's destination is the same and it's the journey that matters.

 

So based on those things I dare say WoK predates KR. And this leads me to believe it was the Shards that suprised the Almighty.

I read a topic that had some shard speculations yesterday and everything was explained really well, it had a bit more on this. I'll add a link if I find the topic again.

Edit: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5956-dawnshards-and-their-relationship-to-the-listeners/ Plenty of spoilers though. The first thing is about Shardblades mimicking Honorblades.

I didn't say WoK didn't predate the Orders- quite the opposite, I wasn't even aware people questioned it. I considered it a fact.

What I was trying to say (and in my tired condition obviously failing), was that the Almighty was refering to the appereance of Surgebinders and not the Orders themselves when he 'tells' Dalinar they surprised him. Don't forget that everything he says is told kind of in hindsight, as an explanation for whoever watches, and that's why he said the KR's appearing surprised him, and not simply Surgebinders (for the benefit of the person watching).

 

 

Edit: you know, while writing this I started thinking- if it is the KR and not Surgebinders in general that surprised the Almghty, maybe it's because the spren found a way to strenghen the Nahel bond through the Ideals, by making their bonded human get closer to the nature of each of their respected kind of spren- for example, the fact that honorspren are identified with qualities like protecting and leading and (assumingly) the Windrunners' Ideals reflect that, then by speaking the Words after truly grasping their meaning (even essence), a Windrunner becomes more closely tied their spren (and the Spirtual\Cognitive Realm?) which makes their use of Sotrmlight more effective and powerful.

 

aanndd once more I'm afraid I couldn't transform my thoughts well enough into a written explanation. Sorry if it is so.

in the WoR previews somewhere in one of Kaladin's chapters there is something about 'those left behind'. now that sounds like something that could relate to some Ideal, so I played around with it, combined with the Leadershop theme that I also believe will be part of the Third Ideal. 'I will lead those who were left behind' somehow doesn't sound quite right..

how about 'I will lead those who lost their path\way'? the KR have their ideal way of living in the First Ideal 'life before death..' etc, so it could be about showing people the right way to live\act, which is also a theme we saw with Kaladin, with how through his actions and words he encouraged Bridge Four to be better, to care even for those who previously resented them (by saving bridgmen from other crews and such)..

 

or maybe 'I will show others the right path' or something...'I will lead other to the right path'... something along those lines, though i like 'I will lead those who lost their path\way' best

you know, I thought of something- before the KR Orders were established along with the Ideals, did the Surgebinders have some other way to strenghen and refine their Surgebinding? and if so, why did the forming of the KR made so that a Surebinder was suddenly require to learn the Ideals in order to become nore powerful? or were the original Surgebinder just, as a general rule, more limited in how much Stormlight they could hold and how potent it was? but why? why do the Words grant more power? and do you have to figure the Ideals by yourself, or can you be told what they are? what happens if someone just tells you? maybe it's only the intent behind the Words and wether or not you truly internalize their meaning...

 

what do you think?

But the Almighty said he was surprised when the KR, not the surgebinders, appeared. Why would he be surprised if a surgebinder upgrades so to speak? Unless by 'spren duplicating what he did with the Heralds' refers to the Shards, not the abilities to surgebind.

I always just assumed he said Knights Radiant for Dalinar's sake, as KR is who he knows Surgebinders to be. Or it was just a language thing-like, because (we assume) after the KR orders were established, all surgebinders joined them, then Surgebinder and Radiant are the same thing...

yeah, sorry if I didn't explain myself very well..

I'm pretty sure not... remember that Kaladin had that sphere with him that time he was out in the Highstorm. It's just a gut feeling, but I don't think humans can draw in raw investiture. With the obvious exception aside (please recall that this isn't the WoR spoiler forum and tread carefully when you respond to this) I doubt that a Radiant could inhale stormlight directly from a storm, not without filtering it through a polestone. Perhaps it's an advanced technique further along in the ideals.

 

 

 

I don't mean draw on raw Stormlight, but if I have a few spheres with me, and I'm taking in their Stormlight even as they are recharged, would they fill up again? 

I'm also wondering if the face in the Storm is the one providing the power... in the WoR chapters Syl 'confirms' for us who it is (well, after a fashion), but what does it mean? and to whom does that face belong to really?

Okay I haven't read all the comments yet but I just have to reply here after reading the first pages.

I have some bones to pick with some people's ideas (no offense intended). 

sorry in advance for the lengh.

 

1) I read people writting about how, because they know that ultimatley Kaladin will save more people than Amaram, they think Amaram is the bad guy here.

- seriously?! "If I know Amaram will only save like 100 people, while Kaladin will probably play an integral role in saving the whole world, then killing his friends and turning him into a slave for the Shards is wrong. But if it turns out the other way around, it is okay"?? the hell? killing innocents is ALWAYS wrong, no matter your reasons, no matter your justifications. a person's worth isn't mesasured by how many lives he might save! if it was, then we are almost all doomed, as I don't think each and every one of us will ever come across a person in need of saving or whatever. does it mean our lives are less important then, say, a doctor's? NO.

 

2) the Ideals of the KR are well and good, but they are not the reason someone is honorable or not! You don't necessarily either follow them or in the wrong. "The first Ideal says that the journey is more important than the destintation- that's why what Amaram did is wrong\right". Ah, no. that's not why it is wrong\right. it's wrong because killing defenseless, innocent poeple is wrong. as simple as that.

 

3) Amaram is a good\decent person who had a moment of weakness?!? really?! well, "I had a moment of weakness yesterday when my friend pissed me off so killed them, but don't worry I'm a good person so that absolves me!" no, it doesn't. I don't care what delusions or excuses Amaram came up with, I don't care if Restares (whatever his name is) influenced him (that just makes him weaker), he can claim that in his hands the Shards will do more good all he wants (and BTW, someone capable of a betrayal like he commited I wouldn't trust to keep his word or protect me in a thousand years. I also don't think it's true- one of Kaladin's soldiers could have became a lighteyes and, as someone who actually understand what's it like for the darkeyes and who had a good example in Kaladin for how a leader should be, would have made a much better and more helpful champion), it won't change the fact that to satisfy his own selfish desires, he committed the wordst betrayal a commander can committ against his own troops.

 

4) "leadrers should think about the greater good". well then, how would any of us feel if it was our death that was deemed to better serve the greater good? sorry, don't buy it. leadership comes with burdens and hardships, and some of those are finding a third way, where you don't sarifice any lives. yes, it might mean that eventually you will fail, but again, that is a burden a leader chooses when accepting the mantle of leadership. we can go into philosophical debates about what the right thing to do is in an impossible situation where you need to choose between lives, but that's not the situation that happened- what might be in the future is not an excuse for committing a crime in the present.

 

5) the fact that Amaram might actually have some conscience? I totally agree that it makes what happened all the worse. when you knowingly choose to do the wrong thing for, let's face it, selfish reasons, for greed and power warped nicely in the reasoning that you will do good with that power... just no. someone who thinks like that is in a desperate need of some serious wake up call (and in Amaram's case, hopefuly a painful one, as well).

 

so, call me bloodthirsty, call me vengeanful, call me whatever. If Amaram gets redemption without at least coming to justice (and without becoming a martyr or be fully forgiven by Kaladin and others whom he may have wronged) I will be one unhappy, frustrated and angry camper reader.

can I just say that when I read the part where Pattern says "terrible destruction!" I couldn't help but hear Davaros's voice in my head (from Doctor Who) LOL

 

about Syl- I always liked her and she just keeps getting better and better!

Pride?  

The Alethi value martial skill.  A warrior backing down from a fight is going to be embarrassing.  In fact, given that combat is a masculine art, I don't think I'd be misleading if I described it as emasculating.  Renarin can take that.  He's never been a warrior.  He's been taking that his whole life (Although hopefully, we'll see him develop into something he can be proud of).  

A highprince though?  

More than that- the Alethi like to pretend to be 'honorable', and there is no honor in challenging someone who is widely known to be of weak body and relatively untrained- even the opposite. So I don't really think it would be an option. Besides, if anyone challenges Renarin instead of Adolin, they might come off as too scared or weak to do so.

I actually liked seeing Sadeas's POV. and I think his plan to rile up the other Highprinces and to stop the skirmishes in favor of a 'real war' which he apparenty desires so will come back to bite him if Dalinar and Navani play their hand right. I can just picture it:

 

Highprinces, all high and mighty and full of self-righteousness, come striding up to Dalinar and start going on about how the vengeance pact should be followed and how they should decalre an all-out war on the Parshendi, and Dalinar is all cool and calm and "Why, yes, that's exactly what I was planing do to. I was just waiting for you ignorant kids to realize that united we can actually accomplish something here. To war!"

-Highprinces follow Dalinar, leaving Sadeas behind looking all indignant and whatsnot, realizing that Dalinar got the better of him-

 

or not. it would be funny, though.

LOL

Sixty-two days, the glyphs read. Death follows.

“Ah,” said Rushu—a young female ardent with long eyelashes and buttonlike lips. “Look at the sloppy lines! The improper symmetry. Whoever did this is not practiced with drawing glyphs. They almost spelled death wrong—it looks more like ‘broken.’ And the meaning is vague. Death follows? Or is it ‘follow death’? Or Sixty-Two Days of Death and Following? Glyphs are imprecise.”

 

 

looks like Szeth will get there in 62 days! or at least that's my theory- I mean, he is the Assasin in White, and death follows in his wake and all that, and you can say that he is broken, too, and I find the "it looks more like ‘broken.’" line highly suspicious (of course, I might just be pointing out the obvious- or being compeletely wrong).

 

Also, I find it interesting how poeple speculated that the writer of the message is a spren (which I agree with), but not just a pren- Dalinar's or maybe even Renarin's, but Navani notes at the beggining of the chapter that the countdown possesed less danger than the note itself- predicting the future is of the Voidbringers. Well, if it was Dalinar's spren, what does it mean for Dalinar? We think him a Bondsmith and assume he will have a spren of Honor's, but "Seeing the future is not of Honor" as Syl said to Kaladin. So how?

And if it was Renarin's spren (which I don't really think it is, honestly) what might that mean for him? for who he is going to become?

What if it's neither of those? Who else would leave such a message?

 

questions, questions.

Storms are a build up of spiritual energy some place off the coast of Roshar that explodes out on a weekly basis. I feel storms consist of 2 waves.The first is the storm wall the physical wave of matter blown out of the origin. The second is a wave of spiritual energy trailing the first. This wave temporarily folds the physical realm into the spiritual during this time the gems exposed to the second wave fill with storm-light. 

 

 

 

maybe someone can answer me (if we have ever actually gotten an answer and I missed it), but can every single Highstorm recharge\power an exposed sphere only once? I mean, if I'm holding a sphere out in a Highstorm and, say, am breathing in it's Stormlight until it is empty, would it automatically fill up again? even if I'm constantly draining it?

because if so, it means that during a Highstorm, a Surgebinder has an unlimited suply of power to draw on, if they choose to brave the outside during a Storm, and that would be rather awesome, if scary and dangerous as hell    

 

and about riding the Storms- Kaladin was only Mind-Riding it, right? because for some reason, the way the voice spoke of people no longer riding the winds sounded like more of a physical riding\flying on them, and we know that there was at least one KR order whose members could actually fly...

"The stronger the truth, the better hidden it is, the stronger or bond." You might be on to something Fishy my boy 

 

Perhaps the Cryptics are attracted to liars, but seek the truth itself. VERY odd considering lieing is the last Honorable (IMO) action a person can take. 

aren't Cryptics\liespren of Cultivation, though? 

 

on other note- we have a sort of confirmation as to why predicting the future is considered blasphemous by vorinism\the ardentia! because seeing the future is not of Honor, whom we know to be not very good at it (unlike Cultivation and persumably Odium), and as Honor is the Almighty and Odium's enemy....yeah, visions=Odium=Voidbringing (well, sort of)

 

I just LOVE how Kaladin's chapter ends with him thinking Dalinar will be hard-pressed in his attempt to reinstate the KR, "unless he has help"! we are all worried about the information-sharing issue between our main characters, but by letting Kaladin in on that conversation, Dalinar just might unknowingly prompt Kal to really trust him and share his own knowledge.

 

I also loved how Teft and Moash (so far only them, but they just so happen to be two of Kaladin's most trusted friends) call him Kal:)  

I'm sorry I'm totally fangirling over here LOL

 

I'm liking Shallan more and more with each chapter and can't wait for her and Jasnah to get the the Shattered Plains! 

 

Mmmmooorreee pleaasseee!!

it would be awesome if it turns out to really have some meaning but... well, since balderdash is an actual word (from dictionary: sensless talk\writing, nonsense.) I think we are grasping at straws here...

@Moash-- You make a very good point about the Lift interlude. I'm hoping Dalinar doesn't die. Not because I can't stand lose my favorite characters. I have no issues with character deaths as long as it serves the best interests of the overall story. I don't want Dalinar to die in WOR because he is the one the fans assume will kick it. His death wouldn't be shocking enough. Also, if Dalinar does die, I hope Sanderson has his replacement to lead the Knights Radient set up. Maybe Navani, Jasnah, or Kaladin, but a lot would need to happen for that to work.

 

So if Dalinar died it wouldn't be a surprise and that alone would be kind of sad.

I believe it's actually Kaladin who's being set up as the future leader of the restored KR.

I agree with you though that Dalinar's death is almost  too anticipated and besides, I think book 2 is still a bit too early to kill off ANY of the main characters. Each of them still has too much to do! haha

And I shamelessly admit that I don't want Kaladin to die simply because he is my favorite character and I love him ( ) and I'll cry like a little girl if anything...permanent...happens to him. Poor guy can use a break  (but not a permanent one.. LOL )

"...I raise my hand. The storm responds"

not sure if anyone asked it somewhere, but what if "storm" referes not to just regular winds and such, but to a Highstorm? 

who could control a Highstorm? one of the Heralds? Honor? Cultivation? Odium? (not that it is very likely one of them who 'talks' but stil... )

just a thought:)

Let me give you my spoilery review of Words of Radiance.

Dalinar is....... "AWESOME" and kicks Sadeas's butt. Kaladin is ......."AWESOME" and kicks Amaram and Sadeas's butt and fights Szeth. Shallan is...... "AWESOME" and has sad and exciting flashback scenes about her homicidal, power hungry father and...... seduces Renarin (here's to u Feather Writer). Jasnah is...... "AWESOME" and literally reduces guys to smoke and seduces Kaladin (Yay! My theory stands true.) Renarin is ......"AWESOME" and becomes a kick butt Surgebinder........ and kicks Voidbringer butt. Szeth multitasks and kills people while crying and listening to non existent screams...... and gets his butt kicked by Kaladin. Eshonai is....... "AWESOME" and kicks stuffy Alethi butt........ and begins courting the DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE. (But no there's no "Kaladin, I am your mother" scene yet. That comes in book 9.)

 

Oh and by the way, Lift is AWESOMEST of all.

I'm not sure if I missed it, but are you a Beta reader and this is a real spoiler or just a 'mock review' of what you wish happened?

because I would totally love to see any of these things come true...

but if it's made up....    

lol