zandi

nah they are too stupid to understand his brilliant logic and so can't be convinced kidding

agree - with some degree of uncertainty. up votes to both of you. that is if i can...

Always happy to agree to disagree. I don't think T is infallible and thus there will be mistakes in his line of reasoning even on his 100%days as you just said. We are in agreement about this. I do think however that T believes himself to be infallible on 100% days. I will also clarify. Since we do have some points of agreement. I don't think there is a conflict (going back to Moogle's first post) here but rather it is consistent with someone who is brilliant but lacking empathy. He doesn't have the required charisma/personal magnetism to sway people this way. He does have the brilliance to direct events and understand motivation. Maneuvering someone to do something through events is a different skill set than something that requires emotional manipulation. Almost like a general vs a con man. Different types of genius. I think T is absolutely brilliant on his 100% days and also even on say 90% days. But I think he is fallible. I think he is excellent a political strategy in the abstract. Like playing chess would probably be super easy for him. I think he views people like chess pieces in many ways - tools to be thrown away or used as needed. Which is why he thinks it is ok to think that a group of people should commit suicide. And why he is willing to go about researching the death rattles as he does. He however - by nature of boon/curse lacks empathy. So while he may understand a person's desire to live he cannot relate to it if it is not inline with his goals/logic. He is a genius at strategy and figuring things out - like the diagram shows- but not at emotional empathy/intelligence due to his sociopathic nature. Since he is in a sense in some ways blinded by his lack of empathy, this will increase his fallibleness in the long run. Since he believes himself to be the most intelligent and doesn't see his lack of empathy/sociopathy as a problem, this make him hubristic. Since he seems to believe his ways is the best way etc no matter what despite the possibility he can err, he seems to suffer from megalomania. His diagram may or may not work -that remains to be seen. As you say he may simply get out of date. Even if he turns out to have found the solution it doesn't mean he is psychologically a stable person. He isn't as is clearly shown. I think this is an excellent example of BS ability to draw character. His willingness to kill anyone who doesn't fit his plan or that he feels unworthy is scary. Taravagian's goals (saving humanity) may be worthy - it is his methodology that leaves much to be desired. Journey before destination. edited to include original quote and clarify w/general/con man comment

It is a form of genius compared to a form of genius. And is further an example that different types of genius exist. He understands motivations (survival) he does not relate to them. Because he is a sociopath. I think this goes along with how he is willing to hasten the death of his hospital wards to collect death rattles. All for the greater good. He cares more about the research than the patients. No empathy.

Yes. He doesn't understand why his perfect sociopathic hubristic megalomaniac logic wouldn't appeal to regular less intelligent people. Go figure. They really must not be smart then. He rationalizes his own brilliant irrationality. He understands survival instinct but not why people let that get in the way of his pure logic. Hubris.

Yep Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 281018368 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 481823024 bytes) in Unknown on line 0

A painter might not be good at sculpting but they (painters and sculptors) can both be brilliant artists. Different spheres. Anyway his hubris is demonstrated by his not understanding why people don't want to kill themselves. Clearly he is not brilliant at everything. Such as understanding everyone's motivations. His safeguards are to protect from less brilliant days. Not from mistakes on brilliant days. Which he can still make. Sure you can.

Exactly!

I think he understands this - what he doesn't understand is since they are inferior (to him) why do they not want to sacrifice themselves for what he believes is the greater good. He thinks that everyone should want what is for the greater good even to the point of self sacrifice. Since he believes himself to be infallible it makes no sense to him that others would not see his clarity of thought and believe the same way. Yes, it is crazy.

exactly. bound to trip him up at some point. good way of stating it

I was implying that to strategize politically that it is best often to not let your emotions get in the way not that politicians are greedy bloodsuckers. Effective strategizeing often requires a cool unemotional state. Anyway, megalomania is: "psychopathological disorder characterized by delusional fantasies of power, relevance, or omnipotence. "Megalomania is characterized by an inflated sense of self-esteem and overestimation by persons of their powers and beliefs."[1] wikipedia Not the desire to be a world leader. In anycase - someone can be devoid of empathy towards a group they (wrongly) perceive as inferior and not understand why they would not want to do something because that person can not relate to that group. You can effectively plan strategies that are manipulative without relating to everyone. You can better understand some people and not others. Especially if you believe them beneath you. As Talyra said - there are different spheres of intelligence. You can have one and not the other. Since his compassion/empathy decreases with intelligence. It makes perfect sense that a group he has no empathy for he would not be able to relate to their desire to continue living - in his mind they serve no purpose so their existence is useless so why do they want to continue - it seems illogical to him. Even though he is smart he cannot understand this. There is no conflict here in T's mind. Rather I think BS has rather expertly (brilliantly- haha) drawn this type of twisted thinking. T is not completely in his right mind when he is at his most brilliant as this demonstrates. It is likely to cause him to miscalculate some things - but still accurately calculate most things.

I agree - I doubt he is infallible. Who is? He is still a mortal. He has savant genius days but he can make mistakes like anyone. His hubris almost makes it inevitable.

Yep this makes sense. I think the corrupted storm form spren add to those negative emotions significantly making them dominant.

agree. i also think the parshendi are local.

I don't think it is an error. Predicting things could be accurate when not dealing with things that require empathy. Politics doesn't always require empathy - infact you could argue that often it requires lack of empathy! Not understanding why people wouldn't want to kill themselves and just thinking that they should and would be convinced by the power of his argument is classic sociopathic megalomania. There is no conflict between being brilliant and being detached.

I understood it as she is trapped in her own head - in a way. Part of her objects to what the rest of her is doing under the increased dominance of the spren. Almost a multiple personality disorder. She is internally very conflicted. Her personality before her bonding with the storm form spren was not evil or overly aggressive even though she is wearing war form. To me this indicates her basic/true self is much more peaceful. She can hear the conflict within herself more when attuned to Peace because Peace is meditation=mindfulness = more self aware. When not in Peace mode she is more able to shove this objection/screaming/discomfort aside with other thoughts. When in Peace/meditation those come more to the forefront with self-awareness. She is confronted with the conflict. Kind of a yoga thing - at least that was how I read it.

As he gets smarter he gets more sociopathic and out of touch and egomaniacal. No, I don't think his brilliant arguments would persuade them. He is suffering delusions. He is crazy like a fox.

I took it to mean that her true self was repressed by the storm form spren - not that she was dead - rather that the spren was occupying a larger part of her will. Not truly possessed in the classic sense, because there is always a symbiosis of sorts with what ever form spren they are communing with to attain a given form, but more of that spren being more dominant than they usually are. Her true self doesn't like this and recognizes that the stormform spren is corrupted - but too late - thus the screaming at the unwilling symbiosis and dominance of the corrupted spren. Not death.

this was my take. the way that the sphere with the spren eshonai has to become storm form is described similarly as gavilar's sphere.

I don't think he can become a radiant... Parshendi spren bonds are likely different. There's a discussion of it here started by Windrunner: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6396-parshendi-origins-theory/ but based on this: The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt. Our minds are too close to their realm That gives us our forms, but more is then Demanded by the smartest spren, We can’t provide what the humans lend, Though broth are we, their meat is men. -From the Listener Song of Spren, 9th stanza it doesn't seem like they can form a Nahel bond.

This makes sense to me. In the sense that the Unmade are/might be souls when you link it with the what Rlain said. It kinda made me think of Shadows for Silence. Maybe that's how the shades from that world were (UN)made?? In any case this with what Hoid/Wit says seems to make it a definite way of Odium's going about making hateful spren like things. So I can see why it would happen on 2 worlds in the same system. The question is, if true, did they knowingly sacrifice themselves to destroy? Because they were angry about the Nahel bond? Perhaps similar to what I think Dru was saying above about: The betrayal of spren has brought us here. They gave their Surges to human heirs, But not to those who know them most dear, before us. ’Tis no surprise we turned away Unto the gods we spent our days And to become their molding clay, they changed us. -From the Listener Song of Secrets, 40th stanza I'm still hoping that there's room for them to be redeemed at the end and find a new path...

I think they do bond to cultivation-like spren at least already, but not the nahel bond ones (mateform grows/cultivates new parshendi no? ) but i think when they assumed dull form ages ago to get away from the grip odium had with stormform, they forgot how to bond to many spren they are "supposed" to bond to. what is keeping them from regaining this? nothing. they were in-process, so to speak, of relearning how to bond with their rightful spren and relearn their old forms...until they decided to start with stormform again...

I agree. I think maybe it is the more basic spren (as Windrunner said they can't bond w Nahel spren) that originally bonded with Parshendi before Odium threw his spren in and co-opted their natural symbiosis to his purpose. The Unmade spren form, smoke form and Stormform would be his later additions, which the songs warn against. I think they sought dull form intentionally to get out of connecting with Odium Dullform dread, with the mind most lost. The lowest, and one not bright. To find this form, one need banish the cost. It finds you and brings you to blight. This ironically makes them vulnerable (brings them to blight) to Odium for a second round though because they forgot and must rely on the songs whose meanings they don't 100% understand and misinterpret. Mediation form seems to be an example of how they can be duped like this...they sought to avoid storm form by the treaty and assassination - but that just ended up hastening its return. Since they seem only to refer to Odium's spren as their gods ("Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control,"): Mediationform made for peace, it’s said. Form of teaching and consolation. When used by the gods, it became instead Form of lies and desolation. Happily the nightform (from night watcher?) seems to show a possibility for a better future: Nightform predicting what will be, The form of shadows, mind to foresee. As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered. A new storm will come, someday to break. A new storm a new world to make. A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens. Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. But the nightforms speak of future life, A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite. this seems to me to imply that a new path (after the final storm, ever storm) can be won - meaning that they can be free of Odium - and maybe all Shards and become their own masters so to speak - in a "future life" if Odium's champion either loses the challenge or ultimately rejects Odium (is challenged by a crisis of conscience?).... Is Eshonai then Odium's champion? Finally, if all works out...they might then gain Nahel bonds - perhaps this is the "new path": But it is not impossible to blend Their Surges to ours in the end. It has been promised and it can come. Or do we understand the sum? We question not if they can have us then, But if we dare to have them again. Conclusion: I think originally Parshendi were at worst a neutral/benign race...and that was turned to Odium's purpose without their full understanding of the consequences when they changed to his forms the first time. It seems they can be redeemed though. After all would they need Art form otherwise? And why so much need to understand color? (Empahses mine)

Maybe it is similar to how Shallan has to say a truth. I can picture Rysn saying "I will stand" during a physical therapy session ...my guess is it would have to do with strong belief. interesting though; RYSN: RISEN

totally agree