Kaurne

In fact, the Skybreakers name fits especially well, since they both fly ad use Destruction (i.e. break things)

The Skybreakers didn't break their oaths because they see holding to oaths - even wrong oaths - as the most important thing one can do. Nalan calls it the only true beauty in all the world. I'll expand on this theory a bit later, but here's the gist of it. Honor is an idea, but an idea with many facets. Consequently, the ten different forms of spren all have different ideas about what is 'right'. This is why Syl desn't like Cryptics; they have very different ideas of what Honor actually means. The SKybreakers have a different one, which holds to honor as in 'honoring commitments' - they don't break their oaths, at all. One of the chapter headings supports this by talking about a confrontation between Windrunners and Skybreakers over how to judge some civilians. From what we've seen of the two, their Ideals seem to be very opposed to each other, despite sharing a surge, which might be, symbolically, why Kaladin and Szeth are the ones who had the confrontation and seemed so opposed to each other; the orders (neither of which they were technically part of at that point) were opposed, so they are opposed. When Dalinar is commanded to 'unite them' he isn't being commanded to unit humanity - that's the easy part. He's being commanded to unite the Orders of the Knights Radiant, to ensure they work together to face the True Desolation, because it is only through unity that humanity will survive. That's why he's a Bondsmith and why the chapter heading talked about the Bondsmiths being 3 in number but important. His job is to unify the nine other Orders, to forge bonds between them and work around their conflicting ideals of what is 'right' so that victory can be achieved.

I was about to suggest this, but you got there first. I think the Tension, Cohesion and Division surges are the key bits. Didn't the prelude to the series have the Dustbringers doing something that causes scorch marks? We know they have abrasion and division, which is a combination of friction based and destruction based powers. The combination surge of those two sounds like it could be used to create fires or burn things. Also, is it just me, or do the descriptions for Tension and Cohesion sound like the strong and weak intermolecular forces by a different name? If so, how would THOSE powers work?

I have it. I'm from the UK, but got it early. I took 12 hours to read it all, from purchase to finishing it (of those I probably spent 9-10 reading, discounting internet browsing time, two meals, and some travel) although I may have missed some minor details that I'll pick up on with a re read. Are we going to actually make it a competition?

I got a copy from a local bookstore at 3pm yesterday; finished it at 3am today. It's an awesome book, and I can't believe I managed to get it early.

Remember in Dalinar's flashback where he meets the two Knights Radiant? One of them uses 'Three Gods' as a curse. Presumably, all three were known of (not necessarily worshipped) in the past - or maybe were worshipped by different peoples. Look at the difference between 'rule' and 'reign'. There's a subtle difference - as I've said before, the Queen of England reigns but does not rule, because she has no real constitutional power. In the same way, I think in the past, all Three Gods were worshipped - so all three ruled. Now, however, Honor appears to be worshipped by the major world religion, Vorinism, and its offshoots - yet Honor is splintered and cannot exercise his power (presumably since he doesn't have a mind to do so) - and so 'reigns'.

While it's an interesting idea, I actually think the Broken One might not actually refer to either of them individually - it's a moniker that fits both Honor and Odium, and it might be used to describe both or mean both.

Okay, so I was browsing wikipedia articles on divination because I was interested, and found several intriguing passages. First, from here Particularly the bit about the 16 geomantic figures being split into four elemental sets, and split into two sets a multiple of ways (stable/mobile, partial/impartial, diurnal/nocturnal) struck me as being quite similar to the way Allomancy is set up. Then I kept looking, and found this Here a similar system is explained because 'The number 16 holds important significance in Yoruba Mythology as it was the purported number of original divinities that established life on earth.' Doesn't that sound like Shards? I mean, this is probably a coincidence, but it does seem rather similar; does anyone know if it is a coincidence or not?

That's a really weird thought. How would they actually, you know, have sex? Do they just bump their nexuses together while the appropriate music plays? Do they take mortal form? What?

Wait. Metalminds are immune to their own abilities, right? So a brassmind doesn't melt, no matter how hot you get? Make a thin brass sword - a rapier, basically. Store heat. Awaken it, with the command that it fills the sword with heat as well as you (or not even you - just make sure it keeps your immunity to the heat), fill it with Breaths and use those up for heat. Using Feruchemy and Awakening, I have invented a lightsaber. Note: While you technically could do this with Awakening 1) it would probably melt the sword and 2) The heat would probably kill the wielder as well. The only reason it works in Star Wars is because supposedly it's actually supercharged plasma contained in a magnetic field and STOP ASKING QUESTIONS LASER SWORDS ARE AWESOME.

Yeah, that seems reasonable, if annoying. Though could you say, multiply the effect by teaming up with bendalloy users? That seems like a reasonably plausible idea for how the southern continent make their magic work. Makes me wonder if Soulcast blood works the same as regular blood in carrying spiritual essence (or whatever). That also makes me wonder how 'dense' investiture can get, why Nightblood seems to have so much more investiture - is there no limit, and Nightblood was just made that way? Or is it related to the Intent of Endowment that allows Nightblood to become more investiture dense? How investiture dense do metalminds get? Could you create a steel sword, use it as a metalmind to store speed, and then awaken it so that it can feed off of Breath to provide you with speed, rather than having to use your own? Steel is the best material for a sword, but what if you stored heat in a brassmind, then awakened it with lots of breaths? If you have enough stored heat it's theorised you can release it explosively, sort of like a bomb (except you're protected) although storing that much heat is really difficult. But what if you used Breaths to fuel it instead? A reusable bomb, centred on yourself but not harming you? Or do you stop being immune to the effects of your own feruchemy once you start using Breath as a fuel? Would that sword make you fast without storing speed, but also mean you couldn't go too fast without your skin catching fire? Would that brassmind harm you with its heat as well, essentially making a magical suicide bomb? When Brandon talks about a 'Conflux' book, does he mean magic systems actually merging, or people having access to multiple magic systems? I don't see why the first would be necessary when there is so much potential just in the second.

Minor thought: Is it possible to stamp yourself so you had a twin, thereby creating a twin? Or am I misunderstanding how Forgery works? Or could you stamp yourself/another person so that another person (say your sibling, to make it stick better) was actually your twin? Could you then use hemalurgy to steal their allomantic/feruchemic/other powers? Would that make the hemalurgic spike not last very long? Can you awaken hemalurgic spikes? Or Shardblades? Lets say you stabbed someone with a hemalurgic spike which had been used to kill someone, but which had the wrong metal used to steal their powers. Could you Soulcast it into the right metal and give them the power? Could you soulstamp yourself into Shadesmar? I'm pretty sure there's a Dakhor ritual to get into Shadesmar, although I don't know how many apprentices you have to kill to do so If you had an enormous amount of Stormlight, could you Reverse Lash an object strongly enough to make it into a black hole? [Note: the science behind this works. Every object has something called a Schwarzchild radius, based on its mass, which is the radius at which, if the object was compressed (keeping its mass) to a sphere of that radius, then the escape velocity at the surface would be c, the speed of light. If an object is smaller than its Schwarzchild radius, it becomes a black hole. The Earth has a Schwarzchild radius of around 0.9mm, the Sun 3km or so. The Schwarzchild radius is proportional to an object's mass, which a Reverse lashing doesn't increase, but gravity is also a variable where Surgebinding is concerned - give and object a Reverse Lashing, you increase its gravitational pull but not its mass, and you also (very slightly) increase it's Schwarzchild radius. Give it a big enough Reverse Lashing, it becomes a Black Hole (in theory).] Most of these ideas probably don't work, but a couple might lead to interesting places.

I've hypothesised before that magic on Roshar has 3 gods sharing the surges between them: I'd like to extend this - I was prompted to expand this by Kiwi's thread on symmetry here: In addition, Brandon has said we've seen three kinds of Shardblade in tWoK So here's my theory: The Three Gods on Roshar share EVERYTHING. They share their magic systems, which are accessed via different means but produce the same, or similar, effects. They share shardblades, of which there are three kinds; Honorblades, Odiumblades and Cultivationblades. They are called 'Shard'blades because that is the catch all term for them - blades granted by Shards. Over time, the knowledge that they are separate has been lost, and they are merely referred to as Shardblades. I think the most common ones we see are Odiumblades, Taln has an Honorblade, and Szeth may have a Cultivationblade. This is why symmetry is so important on Roshar. The Gods literally reflect each other - they share the powers and the abilities, and let beliefs be the deciding factor. Now that I write that, though, it seems weird. Cultivation doesn't sound like the type to have Blades, and Cultivation's magic system, partly based on fabrials and partly based on something else (and maybe including the Old Magic, a 'cousin' of voidbinding), might not fit into my 3 gods sharing 10 surges idea, so what's the alternative? Cultivation's magic is based on 10 because that's an important number on Roshar. However, The thing with Honor and Odium goes deeper than that. I like to think that Honor and Odium are opposites. I know that a lot of people think Devotion and Odium are opposites, but I have previously speculated that we are misinterpreting the Intent of Shard based on one word names and that Odium is about creating division With that in mind, I'm going to suggest that Odium and Honor made an arrangement (this might be part of the Oathpact) that changed the way their magic systems worked, making them opposites of each other. This might explain why 'Voidbinding' is referred to as seeing the future a couple of times - that's what it was based on before the arrangement. This explains why, even when Honor lived, there didn't seem to be crossover magic systems between the Gods - Honor and Odium agreed not to do that, which meant Cultivation couldn't either. This is why symmetry is important on Roshar - Honor and Odium are, in one view, reflections of each other. Honor binds men together, Odium drives them apart. I reckon that they basically had an ideological conflict, and decided that instead of having a direct shard-to-shard fight, they were going to see which of their ideas, Honor or Odium, was more potent when wielded by men (and other sentients, I guess). That is why their magic systems are (in my prediction) similar. It's because they wanted their conflict to be about the ideals, not the specific powers. This explains why they access the magic in different ways - because that's tied into the Ideals men follow. I'm pretty sure the Heralds and the Unmade/Fools/whatever were part of this, but I'm not sure how yet. Anyhow, the Oathpact was dissolved when the Heralds abandoned it in the Prelude. Honor didn't lose, then, I don't think - it simply weakened the Oathpact enough (Taln was still held to it, remember?) that Honor had to fight Odium shard to shard which he eventually lost at. However, Taln has returned - the Oathpact can be salvaged, if the old Heralds return or others take their place. Honor told Dalinar in his last vision that Odium is bound by certain rules and must choose a champion. This relates to this, but I'm not sure how. So yeah, that's how I think Roshar is set up, metaphysically. Feel free to tear this idea to shreds.

Just a quick thought that occurred to me, might have been mentioned before. Odium seems to be focused on driving men apart. Both hating and things that should be hated (the definition of Odium) do this. Honor speaking to Dalinar in his visions implies it; he talks about how Odium's direct assaults were uniting people and he deliberately tried to allow them to become divided by retreating. Odium has attacked Devotion and Dominion, who are speculated to have been working together in some way. He attacked Honor and Cultivation, who were more than working together - they were lovers. My conclusion? Driving things apart is what Odium does. It's his Intent. He creates division, separates people. It's his driving force that defines every thing he does. Brandon has stated that Odium feared Shards uniting like Sazed did. That's because it goes against all he has worked for. In fact, this also explains why he hasn't picked up any of the Shards he has defeated - it would go against his very nature to do so. Maybe what Odium wants is for each Shard to stay on its own and to be on a separate world, and he's willing to attack and Splinter Shards if they refuse - which Honor and Cultivation obviously would, since they were lovers. Many have speculated that Hoid wants to restore Adonalsium. This explains why he has such a specific 'beef' (as Brandon put it) with Odium; Odium wants to keep the Shards sperate, while Hoid wants to unite them again. Anyway, that's what I think Odium is about; division.

Decay sounds too much like Ruin to be a different Shard. I like the whole Physical/Mental/Spiritual/Temporal idea you have (we've got something similar going on in that other thread) but I think the concept of internal and external and pushing and pulling sounds like you're stretching a bit to get them to fit. Obviously, it might turn out that once more Shards appear they all fit perfectly, but I'm not going to support this until we have more evidence. I certainly do think there are groupings - it doesn't seem like Brandon to have all these intricate and complex yet still ordered magic systems, where all the powers can be neatly categorised and placed into relationship diagrams, or can be paralleled in other magic systems, and then have him say about Shards 'No, there's no underlying structure, I just based them around whatever cool idea I had in my head at the time with no thought for larger relationships'. That just doesn't seem like how Brandon does things.

Okay, my two pence. Brandon has said that not all Shards are perfectly opposed to each other, but I do get the impression that there are pairings, to some extent. Preservation and Ruin are almost perfect opposites. While I prefer the idea of a Creation-Presevation-Destruction triangle, I still think they're as close opposites as we can think of. In addition, I think another key point is this: They are the simplest and easiest to understand of the shards. Ruin ruins things, Preservation preserves things. You can go into a bit more detail about it - how Ruin is essentially a sentient force of entropy etc, but that is the gist of it. We understand Ruin and Preservation better than we understand any of the other Shards, because we get the perspective of two characters wielding them (one of whom makes quite a few notes about it) and also have quite a few long conversations with another wielder. We don't have anywhere near this understanding with the other six shards we know of, since half of them are Splintered and we haven't encountered the other three. However, I'm going to postulate something here: The Intent/Purpose/Ideal of a Shard is far more complex than we would believe. The single word names deceive us, I think, into assuming the concept the shard represents can be explained simply (the fact that the only two Shards we've really interacted with are two of the simplest reinforces this view). In shorter terms, the Shards represent incredibly complex concepts that are simplified into one word, which by nature doesn't give us the whole picture. It's a bit like how Terry Pratchett describes quantum physics, where we're trying to explain the subtle workings of the universe in a language evolved to shout at apes in the next tree. So, defining them exactly is difficult. Now, I think that Devotion, Dominion, Honor and Odium form a group of four, but they don't have clearly defined 'opposites'. An argument can be made that Honor and Odium are opposites; Honor binds things together, Odium drives them apart. Odium certainly seems more based around causing strife from what we've seen of his influence in Roshar, whereas the concept of unity is what honourable people can achieve. Devotion and Dominion can be looked at through a lens of unity as well: Devotion unites through peace, Dominion unites through force (remember that conversations about religion in Elantris when it contrasts how the original Shu-religion was based around unity of thought, but that was changed into unity of love for the one worshipped in Arelon and untiy of obedience for Shu-Dereth? Yeah, I have a feeling that's more important that it first appeared). On the other hand, a reasonable (perhaps more reasonable) argument can be made that Odium and Devotion are opposites; love and hate. In addition, Honor and Dominion can represent the two ways of leading people; Honor is focused around leading by consent, by being a leader your men chosoe to follow and want to. Dominion focuses on forcing people to follow you. Devotion and Odium revolve around relations between equals, Honor and Dominion revolve around relations between people in unequal positions. There is also a faint way of seeing Devotion and Honor as opposites; Devotion is about liking/being unified with someone because of who they are; Honor is about liking/being unified with someone because of what they do. Odium and Dominion is less concrete... I'm still working that out, any thoughts? With that in mind, I'd be tempted to classify them not as two pairs but as a group of four interrelated concepts. I think they all share the fact that they are related, in some way, to the concept of Unity (perhaps that would be the way one would describe someone who took up more than one of these shards). However, they are all also fundamentally about how sentients interact with the world; what they believe and what their deeds are. It's tricky to name this 'group' but I do think it's a group of four. Obviously, it might be a bigger group containing other, as yet unknown shards, but I can't leave spaces based on where I think things should go - I'm no Mendelev. However, the fact that four seems to be an important Cosmere number suggests I might be onto something. Especially since I'd reckon that if there were 'groupings' of Shards, each would be the same size, so that only leaves 4 or 8 as the possible sizes, and these four shards fit together well. As for the others... they're an odd bunch. Ruin and Preservation go in their own group, sure, but I'm not sure about Cultivation or Endowment, although Cultivation does sound like she might fit into the same group as Ruin and Preservation... Finally, None of the Shards are good or evil, they just are. Brandon has said that on multiple occasions it depends on your point of view. It's entirely possible to see Honor is a somewhat negative light, although most would accept he has good intentions. Odium SEEMS evil, but Brandon has pulled that one on us before. Possible other Shards? If we're looking for rough opposites of Cultivation and Endowment, then Corruption and Deprivation fit. Other than that, I don't really know, though Corruption does sound like it could be a Shard. I can imagine a Shard called Sacrifice that could fit in a group with Endowment and/or Cultivation. Isn't there the suggestion that one of the Shards is called Survival? That bacteria based magic system sounds an awful lot like one Survival would generate... Just a few thoughts.

When did Brandon describe the magic on Silence Divine?

With the whole nahn thing, I think everyone's forgetting that 'peasants' weren't some monolithic bloc in medieval times and there is no reason to think that farmers can't be of eighth or ninth nahn. Basically, the implication seems to be that all the farmers in Kaladin's town as he grows up are what, in Medieval England, would be called yeomant farmers rather than villeins. In other words, they do not owe labour to their lord. The local lord in medieval period had great control over his villeins; they could not leave his lands without his position (hence, presumably, the right of travel) or marry without his permission, among a great deal of other things. However, evidence suggests that in certain areas, there were far more yeoman (particularly during the late middle ages) and few villeins. Basically, the point I'm trying to make is that this city where Kaladin lives is presumably one of the better ones. The citylord is owed dues by the populace (presumably) or has his own lands worked by parshmen or such, and has some kind of law-giving actions, but none of the farmers actually are owned by the citylord. As such, they're fourth or fifth nahn. A farmer who owes labour to their citylord for a few days a week would be lower in rank. A recently freed slave is presumably a tenth nahn, and then must work his way up. A beggar is probably likewise. As far as working your way up is concerned, it's probably a mixture of purchasing (proving you both have the wealth and financial prudence to be treated as a more important member of society) and action based - I'm sure a citylord might be able to raise a man from seventh to sixth, or sixth to fifth, nahn based on his actions, although he probably can't effect a much higher raise. Obviously, the presence of slaves and parshmen changes things, but I think this is roughly how it works. Kaladin just lives in an affluent area, leading to few people of a low-nahn living there.

Also, in the final chapter, he claims the moniker 'Stonesinew' which also links with the Stonewards

This is how I interpreted it. If Dalinar dies at the end of a book, I can easily see the next book being about everyone else trying to secure his legacy and prevent what he has built from falling apart, while trying to, you know, deal with his death; that would fit in brilliantly with the flashbacks. On the other hand, the implication is there that, since apparently Dalinar would be book number 5, the final book of the first five-part series would be about the fallout from his death; which i think would fit better with book four; it seems like the end to the first half would be a bit bigger than that, but that's a thought; Brandon's a good enough writer I don't doubt he could make it work.

I have one for a scene in a future book; in either Dalinar's or Navani's flashbacks to the time of the whole love triangle, I think 'Young and Beautiful' by Lana Del Ray would fit in rather well. For some reason, when Kaladin is about to jump into the Honor Chasm all I can think of is Javert's Suicide from Les Miserables. I also think 'Never Let Me Go' by Florence and the Machine fits well for some of Kaladin's other periods of sadness. Other than that, I don't know.

In the prelude to the Stormlight Archive, Kalak says that 'Taln had a tendency to choose seemingly hopeless fights and win them. He also had a tendency to die in the process'. Okay, not from the way we look at it, the situation of Roshar... isn't good. The Almighty is dead, their nations are engaged in pointless wars, their leaders are being killed off, they've lost all sense of honor and there are only a few people who are even on the path to becoming Knights Radiant. In meantime, Odium is coming. The Night of Sorrows approaches; the Everstom, the True Desolation. If the good guys somehow work out how to fight the godlike being of pure hate and all his minions, and then manage to do it, the world still might not be saveable. In other words, things seem hopeless. And Taln has just returned. I'm guessing that, at some pivotal moment, Taln with either make the right choice (and die due to its consequences) or make a heroic sacrifice, ensuring the victory of the good guys. He then dies in the process. This came to me basically because I'd love it if Brandon hid the ending to the entire 10 book series in the four pages of prelude. I'm not sure why, it just feels... right.

Just a nitpick; Brandon explicitly confirmed that fabrials were a part of the non-voidbinding 10 magic systems.

He didn't strictly speaking say that. Forgive me if I made a leap of logic there. What he said was: - - - Quote from http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/?p=42206 Fabrials are part of it. - - - I'm kind of assuming that surgebinding here is Honor's magic, and voidbinding is Odium's.

Okay, this is just a weird brainwave I had last night. It might have been suggested before; if so, my apologies. Theory: Magic on Roshar has the Three Gods sharing ten Surges This idea is based off of several answers to questions Brandon has given. I’m going to list the information he has given out here: -On Roshar you can see 10 or 30 magic systems, depending on how you look at it. -Fabrials are a part of Cultivation’s magic -Szeth doesn’t need to bond with a spren to do what he does, and is following a different path to Kaladin. In addition, Shallan and Jasnah seem to require truthspren in order to do their kind of soulcasting, but do not require a fabrial. So here’s my idea. There are ten surges on Roshar; 10 kinds of magic. Gravity, Pressure and transformation are three of these; there are others we haven't seen. Each of these can be accessed via any of the three Shards (Honor, Odium or Cultivation). They all require different things to access. Fabrials are required to access magic via Cultivation, or at least some of the magic It may be that other objects are necessary. The Nahel bond with Spren is required to access magic via Honor, and some unknown method is required to access magic via Odium (voidbinding?). All of these are fuelled by Stormlight in some manner. That's it. That's magic on Roshar, in a nutshell. There are individual subtleties; the three don't use all the surges in the same way, although they might be able to. For example, Cultivation's users can make fabrials that cover a number of the surges. Or Knights Radiant, who access two surges, can generate 'combined' powers using the two surges they can access. But that's the overall stance; there are 10 surges, which are manipulated in different ways, with slightly different effects, by the followers of all Three Gods. Shallan and Jasnah are accessing Soulcasting via Honor, while all the ardents using fabrials are accessing it via Cultivation (ironic, since their religion seems to be worshipping Honor). Szeth is accessing Windrunning powers via either Cultivation or Odium. I'm not quite sure; he obviously doesn't use a fabrial, and is certainly bound by an oath, but I'm pretty sure he isn't of Honor. Obviously, there are some holes in this theory; the chief among them, to me, is Szeth, with the second being the question of why spren only work for Honor when spren are of Honor, Cultivation or both. Any thoughts?