Tower

4 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Gonna say that is a major hot take and really divisive, given the state of Moash in fandom  

You don't really buy that Moash is Kaladin's foil? The fact that Renarin envisioned him as a Windrunner seems to imply he's a Turn Left variant of Kaladin, where Kaladin really never put aside/worked past his anger towards lighteyes. He's basically every choice Kaladin made but bad.

I don’t really think it’s that hot of a take. It’s not really a foil thing either, it’s more a tragedy between two “brothers” if you will. It just would end so much more interesting to have some lingering questions about Moash, like was it the right choice to not save him, was he actually redeemed, etc.

We all know Sando likes to play with tropes and this would be a much bigger surprise than just about any other outcome. Not to mention a questionable redemption is just more dramatic, people will argue (in and out of the book) about what redemption means, if it was earned, and those answers will be based on perception - it’s a lot of narrative fodder for an author. 

Moash is getting a redemption. I’m not sure how this will play out, but it is going to end with Kaladin having to choose between saving Moash or saving someone (or more likely, everyone else). Moash will have earned his redemption, but he will still die because Kaladin can’t honorably save him over everyone (or someone) else.

I don’t have any specific clues pointing to this except for Moash and Kaladin’s arc doesn’t really have any other stakes being Moash can now kill spren going into SLA5, so it has to be an emotional climax and SLA5 is set up to be about consequences for just about every character. I don’t really think the “save yourself, I’ll hold them back” or the “you are too far gone to be saved” endings would fit well to drive home a story about consequences since they would be a little too bland following 100,000+ more words of story development. It seems more fitting to end with Kaladin having conflicting choices of honor: the honor in saving a friend vs the honor in saving the world.

Anyways, that’s just me shooting from the hip. I just can’t shake the feeling that the book is going to have endings for the Sanderlanche that pit characters in conflict with their choices and it is more emotionally compelling that Moash will be redeemed, but not saved.

6 hours ago, Torol Sadeas said:

My problem is that Adolin is simply the character who I agree with a lot more in this discussion. With regard to the second part of this sentence, we haven't seen any real fallout for Dalinar either, have we? And their crimes aren't even close to comparable. That's why their talk in RoW bothers me so much, Dalinar basically equates Adolin's killing of Sadeas with his slaughtering of thousands of innocents. So yes, he is angry, but if you want to set Adolin up for joining Odium make him do actually questionable things. And no, killing Sadeas was not a morally questionable thing. Just like defeating the Nazis required killing many people in WWII, defeating Odium and saving humanity required killing Sadeas. And I think that is the message Brandon is really trying to get across with this plotline: Dalinar's sense of honor is also an extreme ideology. Not to mention that there is a decent argument that Adolin only acted in self-defense.  

When Adolin killed Sadeas he undeniably saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. If he doesn't kill Sadeas, Odium just wins the war straight up. Why would you suddenly want to make this act look bad? It wasn't bad and several Radiant orders are in complete and total agreement with it. Even Kaladin probably wouldn't hold it against Adolin. There will be no significant fallout. Even if Adolin killing Sadeas becomes public knowledge, Jasnah will pardon him and she will be right in doing so. 

I can somewhat see your point, but Adolin is just right about Sadeas and just right in the debates with his father. It's (imo) an awful idea to make him join Odium on the basis of completely justified feelings. The change from his (more than understandable) frustrations with Dalinar to outright betraying everyone he loves and joining an evil force in just ten days is just a bridge too far. 

I'm not arguing that killing Sadeas was morally wrong, or even necessarily needs to be interpreted that was. It is his frame of mind that is what I'm zeroing in on, he lost control. The theory is more that Adolin is very susceptible to being manipulated due to his hotheadedness and his current motivations (restoring Maya and the strain on his relationship with Dalinar) and he will lose control again.

The way I see it going is more Adolin starts getting some clues that releasing Ba-Ado-Mishram is the key to restoring Maya and Dalinar is stopping him from acting on that information. There's already a rift in that relationship and it could reach a fever pitch because I don't see a way Adolin would be swayed out of restoring Maya and getting in his way really setting him off. Think of it more of Adolin feeling as if he is the one being betrayed when he ultimately makes the decision.

On 6/26/2022 at 6:00 AM, Torol Sadeas said:

It would have a great impact, but make very little sense narratively. The little hints you talk about are all conflicts between Adolin and Dalinar where Adolin is completely correct and Dalinar is a bit of a douche. For example when Dalinar constantly judges his clothing for no reason at all. As if wearing a slightly ornamented uniform is the embodiment of evil. Or when he compares the killing of Sadeas to his own war crimes in one of the RoW chapters.. I think those "hints" are only meant to show how Dalinar's sense of Honor is an extreme in its own way. He even takes the "the next step is the most important one" thing too far, as he tends to just dismiss his actions with a "yeah it was horrible, but I'm good now".

It makes sense narratively too. We’ve seen Adolin angry to the point where he is described as “irrevocably angry” and we haven’t really seen the fallout from Adolin killing Sadeas or Adolin learning about how Dalinar killed Evi. There are some WoBs that say these points are going to be addressed.
Those hanging threads can also be catalyzed with my points about Ba-Ado-Mishram. Adolin gets fed some information that leads him to believe that releasing her will restore Maya, being hotheaded he goes after BAMs release and is ultimately put to a point where Dalinar is the one standing in his way. They already have a strained relationship, it just needs to hit a point to get Adolin to be “irrevocably angry” again and I wouldn’t think Taravodium is incapable of that level of craftiness. 

It's not really supposed to be a mystery about the spike, but the real question is the body. Is it his or someone or something else. We probably aren't going to get a whole lot of that in The Lost Metal, it's more likely to be era 3 or 4 before our friend is really in the spotlight again.

It's an interesting thought, but the way Syl reacted to just Odium's name doesn't make this seem likely. 

13 hours ago, Luckspren said:

Take the most improbable theory for Odium's champion I've heard- Gavinor. He has no ability to kill Dalinar, and I don't think Dalinar would be (mentally) able to kill him. Any idea what would happen?

Here is how I think the contest will play out:

Dalinar will beat Odium’s champion, as in he will incapacitate them to the point where they could not possibly kill him. Dalinar will then refuse to kill the champion saying that it is clear that he won so killing isn’t necessary. Odium will say that Dalinar must kill the champion in order to win the contest and if he refuses he is breaking the terms that were set. Dalinar accepts that he is breaking the terms fulfilling the “choice of honor is life” death rattle.

I do not like the Gavinor champion theory, I would rather see him in the back 5 as a main. But this theory kind of informed the one I posted: who could be a champion that Dalinar would refuse to kill? Adolin stuck out because there are little hints that support it, along with how it would effect other characters. Adolin being the champion for Odium has the greatest narrative impact in my opinion.

21 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Unless Adolin goes with her... he's removed himself from the Alethi succession, basically, and depending on what happens in book 5 he might have reason to leave.

If you're talking about Wit, I agree we've seen him off Roshar in chronologically later stories, but I doubt he's leaving permanently (won't be in arc 2).

I would think that (Mistborn)

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Much of this might be resolved in Mistborn Era 3 since Kelsier (Thaidakar) is supposed to be a major part of that. Shallan might show up there, but we won't necessarily see her leave Roshar, 

In the same way we don't see Vivenna and Vasher leave Nalthis, but we do see them on Roshar.

I doubt Adolin could, he’s still the highprince of the Kholins and he just doesn’t come across as being the type of person that would leave the True Desolation entirely.

 I’m not saying Wit is leaving permanently, or Shallan for that matter, but he is in Mistborn Era 2 which is *conveniently* right in between SA5 and 6. Also, Era 3 is going to be written between SA5 and 6, so any potential worldhopping would still have to happen in 5.

Just now, cometaryorbit said:

Oh I think it's likely in the long term, my skepticism is more whether it happens in *this* book. Especially if it really only covers 10 days.

(Which I kind of doubt, but there is that "first of the Final Ten Days" reference.)

It might happen in arc 2, or Shallan might pop up in Mistborn Era 3 or something.

We will see, but we know a showdown between her and Mraize is bound to happen in SA5. We also know that certain worldhopper (who isn’t a Thaidakar fan) is going off world after SA5, and that worldhopper has a history with Shallan and a close relationship her mentor (who is also at war with the Ghostbloods). So all I’m saying is this: the pieces are there, and one piece would stop her unless my prediction is accurate.

15 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I'm not sure I see Shallan going full on worldhopper yet. Cosmere aware sure, but actually leaving Roshar long term while all this is going on? Though I guess that depends on how resolved things look at the end of book 5... just because *we* know another arc is coming 10 years or so later doesn't mean the characters necessarily will, if things *look* solved/stable.

The last we saw of Shallan, she declared war on the Ghostbloods. It isn’t much of a stretch to think picking a fight with an interplanetary organization will lead to them fighting that organization on more than one planet.

42 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yeah I think the Intent issue is a major problem for the Gavinor theory.

Plus it just doesn't sound right for the story imo.

Also, "all who live... further breath to draw" doesn't sound relevant to this contest anyway. The survival of humanity on Roshar doesn't rest on this any more. I think this is either a back half thing; not especially literal (maybe a newborn spren of some sort - a new Unmade or Odiumspren?); or maybe something to do with Yelig-nar style "possession".

"Choice of honor is life" one to me sounds more like one of the Honor associated characters' decision to spare or save someone's life having really disastrous consequences down the road. (And the actual choice might have already happened - we've seen several possibilities- just not the consequences yet.)

That death rattle is one that I’m co-opting for my theory, but I interpret it as being about Adolin from Dalinar’s prospective. Adolin is the only character so far that we’ve seen at an age where they would be breastfeeding (apart from Oroden) during Dalinar’s flashback in Oathbringer. “Holding a knife to a suckling child’s throat” fits really well with Dalinar beating Adolin in the contest of champions but refusing to kill him because it is his son, there’s always going to be part of him that sees him as that baby. 

7 minutes ago, Frustration said:

He would have to kill Odium's champion to win. Not to complete the terms. Or do you think that the instant the contest begins the agreement is invalidated because neither champion is dead?

My theory is that Dalinar will beat, but ultimately refuse to kill Adolin. Taravangian, being clever enough to exploit the minutia of that phrase, would say Dalinar is not fulfilling the terms. My assumption is that the possibilities Taravangian saw that Rayse didn't was crafting a way to get Dalinar to break the terms of the agreement.

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The terms do not require Dalinar to kill Odium's champion, only to participate.

Yes they do. "The final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death" and unless I'm mistaken Dalinar plans to be his own champion. Meaning he would have to kill Odium's champion.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Unconfirmed.

He can try all he wants, but Taravangian doesn't control the agreement. Dalinar is under no obligation to kill Odium's champion, just to participate.

It might be unconfirmed, but clues still point to it heavily, RoW ch 115 really sets it up.

Taravangian doesn't control the agreement, but the agreement is a contest of champions to the death, it's the first sentence of the final terms. There is specific mention that if Dalinar breaks the terms of the deal, Odium is released.

13 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Shallan is not confirmed to be a worldhopper.

How does Dalinar not killing Adolin break the terms of the contest?

Shallan is going to be a worldhopper, heavily alluded to with her arc in RoW.

The terms of the contest are a fight to the death. Dalinar refusing to kill Adolin after beating him would technically break the terms, and we've already seen that Taravangian will exploit technicalities in the rules he's bound to.

I’m leaning on Adolin being pushed primarily because once it’s on his radar that BAM’s imprisonment is part of what caused Maya to become a deadeye, he’s going to pursue it out of a desire to bring Maya back. That motivation would be extremely easy for Odium to manipulate.

Ok I am kind of shooting from the hip but these are my Contest of Champions predictions (again spoilers in case I’m right and ruin SA5):

1. Adolin will be Odium’s champion. Reread the scene of him killing Sadeas and tell me he can’t be swayed to Odium with the right push, quickly. Plus, Shallan is going to be a worldhopper and that moves forward a lot easier without her husband.

2. Ba-Ado-Mishram is going to be a factor in Adolin becoming Odium’s champion, maybe some cleverly selective info from Taravodium to manipulate his desire to restore Maya. I’m not sure on this but the info we have so far aligns BAM’s imprisonment with Maya’s potential restoration, and that would be very interesting to look at from Adolin’s prespective and anyone who knows about Maya (and who knows how many beings will have heard about the trial).

3. Dalinar will beat, but refuse to kill, Adolin and ultimately break the terms of the contest of champions and end up releasing Odium from the Rosharan system. We know there’s a greater war shaping up and Odium leaving Roshar works better in SA5 than SA10. Also, we have mention of men in gold and red outside of Roshar and Brandon has said those colors are the motif of Odium. It’s also something where we could see Dalinar questioning if some oaths are/should be more important than others.

4. Adolin is going to be removed from the main cast. I like the idea of him becoming a Fused more because of the ramifications that would have on the rest of the cast, particularly Shallan and Renarin (Shallan of course becoming a worldhopper, but Renarin in terms of defining corruption versus enlightenment).

5. BAM’s imprisonment might have been damaging to Roshar, but her release will set her up to be a (maybe inadvertent) big bad in the back 5. I don’t know, I’m just getting some previous cosmere book vibes and a greater war needs a drill sergeant on a certain Shard’s designated training ground.

I’m probably wrong, but this makes the most sense to me with the info available. There’s plenty of clues, but Adolin’s corruption also serves foreshadowing for other characters too.

Hello!

I DEVOURED the Mistborn era 1 about a year ago and jumped right into Stormlight. I’m currently on Bands of Mourning then moving to Elantris and Warbreaker. 
 

Looking forward to theorizing on SA 5, The Lost Metal, and future Cosmere with you all!