Ale the Metallic Conjurer
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Posts posted by Ale the Metallic Conjurer
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7 hours ago, Treamayne said:
Interesting theories. Can't say too much more, hope you are enjoying the story.
This is a reference to a story I do not think you have yet read (Slight Spoiler):
This is also referencing stories you may not have yet read (Slight Spoiler):
This is weird. I typed in the stories I’ve read in my About Me. Guess they don’t show up?
Anyway I’ve only read Elantris, Emperor’s Soul, and every other Mistborn story.
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@Duxredux So after finishing Secret History, I have to say this is an amazing and well-written analysis of Ruin and Preservation’s precognitive abilities. I think Preservation hearing the hearts of men, having the will to comfort them after death, and his Intent involving protection are the key cornerstones of why his plan was so complex compared to Ruin. And as you said, their differing goals also mattered. Ruin was more patient and precognitive than people give him credit for, but he still wanted to escape his prison during a cycle. In contrast, it seems that Preservation was okay with his mind decaying over millennia if it meant he (and his pawns) could facilitate the circumstances for the Hero of Ages.
And as of recently, I’ve talked about how Ruin and Preservation approach self-sacrifice. I’m not sure how much of this plays into the Vessels’ personalities, but I find it very interesting. Ruin doesn’t understand self-sacrifice, while Preservation sacrificed everything if it meant a slim chance Ruin could be defeated. Preservation hoped Vin and Elend would do the same.
The only thing I disagree with is Ruin and Preservation’s ability to observe and comprehend the full probability space. I feel like if anything, Kelsier’s Fuzz-assisted vision and Kelsier’s own precognitive plan more or less confirmed they have this capability.
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The Lost Metal Chapter 20
Marasi met an interplanetary traveler called Moonlight. Very ironic codename lmao. Moonlight has a moment where she talks about Hoid. About how they’re watching each other, as well as the same third parties. I guess this means Moonlight’s organization and Hoid are both keeping an eye on Autonomy and her minions.
Moonlight is part of an organization that protects Scadrial. Apparently her organization doesn’t work for Harmony but I should remember his comments from the previous chapter. I’m 100% certain he secretly supports the organization and arranged for them to help. But they don’t know he did so. 10 points for Harmony, for being smart and sneaky this time around.
It’s official. Autonomy is a much better antagonist and much more interesting Shard than Ruin or Preservation. For her writing, I think Brandon is much more effective/consistent with the idea of writing an essential aspect of the universe or humanity, making it sentient, and taking it to a hypocritical extreme. Something else I really admire about Era 2's writing is that Autonomy's Intent and Sazed's approach to Scadrial aren't too different. Sazed as a mortal told people about religions they could worship, but he never forced people to follow them. He was all for people choosing their own religion. We see this in Sazed's mindset as a god, where Harmony/Discord subtly arranges the world while maintaining free will. Or he gives hints of future technology without GIVING people the technology.
Autonomy's Intent is about independence and self-reliance. But it seems that Bavadin created a hypocritical form of Autonomy, which is legitimately terrifying. And very engaging as a storytelling device. Autonomy values creativity and individualism. She gives rewards. She encourages rivalry. But it’s all fake and only fits in her vision of the cosmere, where cities are just based on Taldain’s architecture. Moonlight compares it to a corporation advocating individualism, and it makes me very excited.
There appears to be a contrast between how Harmony and Moonlight’s organization interpret Autonomy’s plans. Harmony sees there’s a schism between Autonomy and Telsin’s plans, and that Autonomy is more scared of tech progress than the hybrid Shard. While the organization thinks Autonomy and Telsin share the same plan, and think she’s scared of the hybrid Shard. Yup.. this is another case of humans not understanding a Shard’s full plan.
Apparently, Scadrial and Taldain developed gunpowder weapons and electricity before any other planet. This makes me very worried about the state of other planets. And curious as to how Scadrial became so advanced. After all, Khriss theorized they would’ve been the most advanced planet without the Lord Ruler messing everything up. I think the Well of Ascension’s users was the main factor.
It’s confirmed Trelagism was a religion founded by Autonomy as a seed for when she decided to make Scadrial hers. This makes me suspicious of Harmony’s knowledge. We know from the chapter for Sazed’s Ascension that Preservation hid hints in all religions for the Hero of Ages, including Trelagism. This has me thinking that Preservation, and thus Harmony, knew about Autonomy’s interference on Scadrial for a long, long time. I’m thinking Harmony is playing some kind of long game to permanently defeat Autonomy. But now I have to wonder if Preservation planned even for Autonomy.
Now it’s time to back up and look to another worrisome Shard. Apparently there’s a Shard who’s trying to destroy all the others and succeeded a few time. The Shard’s name is Odium. Soooooo we got generic doomsday villain, Brandon’s golden boy who should have been doing crap like reverting everything back to the stone age, the cloning imperialist, and the God-Butcher. Why do I feel like Adonalsium’s murder was a mistake?
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Yes, I enjoyed the prologue of TLM. I also enjoyed Wayne and Marasi’s partnership, Wayne’s POV chapters, and the science of God Metals.
I have finally finished Part 1 of this book. I finally know that Trell is an Avatar of the Shard Autonomy.
I’m very interested in the concept of Autonomy making many Avatars, especially cuz there are two methods of making them. I wonder what’s the difference between an Avatar and a Splinter (know that from Elantris / Sel essay).
This chapter has my first official sight of the word Intent.
Autonomy/Bavadin sounds very dangerous and intelligent, with long-spanning and mysterious plans. I love her Intent and mindset. I think by the end of this I’ll love the writing of Autonomy much more than Ruin’s, same with their respective Shardic conflicts. Though I already do.
The red haze is… interesting. I don’t understand if it’s suppose to limit Harmony’s divine sight over the world, limit his ability to see the future, or both. I’m also confused if it’s still a crude representation of Autonomy’s influence/essence, or an actual haze she created.
Harmony can still see and hear Wax, and presumably every other Scadrian cuz he’s Connected to them all. And he can hear the thoughts of every Scadrian. So I guess it’s not limiting his divine sight? Though I guess the trellium that pierces Set members i.e. the Cycle could muddle his divine sight. Much like it did for Paalm. The haze apparently Invested Scadrial, so I guess that could make things worse.
Harmony confirmed the red haze infects his future sight ability… but what does that even mean? Does that mean Autonomy’s… essence?… splits Harmony’s future possibilities into infinite more, like atium/electrum vs atium? Or does it cut off Harmonys ability to see the distant future, limiting him to only foreseeing what happens in the near future?
Something I find intriguing is that Autonomy is afraid of Scadrial’s technological progress, rather than its hybrid Shard. She even wanted Harmony to move to another world. And it’s interesting that the goals of Autonomy and Telsin aren’t the same. Autonomy wants to destroy Scadrial. Telsin wants to rule Scadrial and delay Autonomy’s destruction.
Finally, I want to talk about Harmony’s situation and plans. I can’t help but feel he has a lot of things in motion.
1) Sazed expresses how he’s moved too slowly against Autonomy, and that this weakness grows over time. We know from book 5 this comes from Harmony’s Intent, and there he knew he “tied his own hands.” Sazed knows why his Shard’s Intent ties his hands. I theorize Sazed thinks a hybrid Shard’s Intent can be molded by its Vessel’s perspective on the combination… probably far more than the individual Shards. I think he knows that in order to act he needs to become something different than Harmony. I think he will willingly become Discord.
2) I love that Harmony expresses a lot of knowledge about the enemy, but misses the finer details cuz of Autonomy’s essence. It’s like in SoS, where he knew how Paalm was using her trellium spikes and switching them out, could speak to Paalm’s mind, and could likely hear her thoughts. But he couldn’t constantly track her or know her endgame. In TLM he knows Autonomy and the name of its Vessel, Autonomy’s Intent and her mindset, her extensive use of Avatars and what they’re made from, Telsin’s bestowal and persuasion and activities in Bilming, and Autonomy’s mindset for how Scadrial should be handled. Harmony even knows Autonomy is mobilizing an army. But Harmony does not know Telsin’s ultimate plan.
3) I really can’t shake the feeling Harmony has a master plan in motion throughout this book, even with the haze seemingly limiting him to seeing the near future. There was the envelope convincing Wax to make the trellium earring. Wax is experiencing some weird things after the second explosion. There was the sixteen vials sent to the mansion. There was the bit “I’ve lost games over and over against Autonomy.” There was the bit about him sending help that didn’t know he was the one arranging them to be the help. There was the “time to build greater alliances in the years to come.”
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Treamayne and alder explained this pretty well in the first two comments. I’ll expand on some stuff.
On 2/10/2024 at 6:35 PM, Heilven said:1.) What makes ruin/harmony able to talk in someone's mind? I was under the impression that in order for ruin to talk/manipulate someone, they had to have a sufficiently damaged spiritweb. This could come from people who have had a truly rough go of it, or hemalurgic spikes. As far as I was aware, the spike had to be hemalurgically charged. But in WoA, Marsh uses Sazed's rings as weapons, pushing them into Sazed. This nearly kills him, but he hears a voice that reminds him that those rings are metal minds. I assumed this voice was ruin, since ruin is the only one who could actually do that.
So, does it have to be a spike? Or is it really just anyone pierced by metal?
Ruin and Harmony need the following to talk to minds:
- Cracks in the spiritweb (the soul). Vin’s mother was schizophrenic, Zane was suicidal (he deserved so much better writing), Quellion had passionate paranoia for following Kelsier and killing nobles etc. This gave Ruin backdoors into their minds to encourage them to spike themselves or others.
- The Vessel must have personal Connections to their desired subject, they don’t even need to be particularly strong. Though this is something that’s only been used by the Vessels of Preservation or users of the Well’s power, to circumvent their limitation of not being able to talk to minds. Rashek to Kwaan and his Feruchemist friends, Kelsier to Spook and Marsh and Vin, and Vin to Elend. In Sazed’s case, it would’ve been to Kelsier, the crew, and possibly Marsh. Though TBF, I guess a Vessel of Ruin could use this method to hear thoughts. It’s just unconfirmed as far as I know.
- The subject must be pierced by Invested metal, which makes Connections between the subject and the Shard. Hemalurgic spikes do this. It’s confirmed in the annotations of The Alloy of Law that Harmony, contrary to popular belief, can influence people pierced by metalminds. He doesn’t do it because he prefers the approach of allowing free will while subtly nudging people to do his will. https://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-alloy-of-law-chapter-fifteen/
We still don’t know what’s up with Sazed hearing the voice in the mind. But Treamayne and alder explained the possibilities well.
On 2/10/2024 at 6:35 PM, Heilven said:2.) The atium plan. This one I think is the most easily explainable, I just don't get it. The lord ruler's plan with the atium was to sequester a massive supply, effectively keeping a chunk of ruin's power away from him, slightly weakening him enough to level the playing field between him and preservation. But then, elend and his seers burned all of that atium, which enraged ruin because he couldn't have done it himself. This leads me to believe that the process of burning the atium actively converts the investiture into energy, which permanently weakens ruin. So, then, why even stockpile it? Why not just burn it all? The simple answer that makes the most sense to me is that by burning the atium, the power becomes "dispersed" and needs time to "coalesce". Which would make burning all that atium a significant postponing to ruin's plans, but burning it piecewise as it formed wouldn't be useful.
The Lord Ruler’s atium plan was part of Preservation’s master plan.
Before imprisoning Ruin, Preservation saw a frail future possibility that people could burn away Ruin’s body, or that such an event might be important for his master plan. Burning atium does not permanently weaken Ruin, it provides a 300 year long opportunity where he can’t regain the atium’s Investiture. That’s a unique weakness that came from the way Preservation created the Pits of Hathsin.
Preservation alloyed pure atium with electrum, and programmed the Mists to Snap on a massive scale once the Well was nearly full. This set up a system where the Mists implanted Mistings throughout Scadrial’s history, tied to the number 16. Preservation hoped that in the distant future humanity might figure out the clue of the unique atium Mistings being a thing, and burn away all of Ruin’s atium as a response.
Thousands of years pass. The history of Scadrial between Ruin’s imprisonment and Rashek’s Ascension is a huge unknown. But I have theories on what happened.
After thousands of years, TLR Ascended and became partially aware of Preservation’s Plan. He became aware of the Shards’ respective circumstances of impotence, and their inability to see through areas steeped with vast amounts of metal. And it was said by Haddek that Rashek saw into the future, so the Well of Ascension may have granted him a glimpse into Preservation’s web of future possibilities. Because of all this Rashek entrusted the Canton of Resource and the kandra to hide most atium beads from Ruin’s sight.
It’s not easy to pinpoint exactly how Preservation’s long-term prediction of atium Mistings ties into Rashek’s gathering of atium. It’s also hard to know how they tied into Elend and Vin’s sacrifices, which Preservation predicted might be crucial to Ruin’s defeat. But if we look at canon it might’ve been that Elend and his atium Mistings NEEDED to burn the atium, to provide an opportunity where Ruin can’t regain his full power. But Elend also NEEDED to die to drive Vin to sacrifice her life, sometime within this opportunity. None of this was guaranteed to happen or work. We just saw the timeline where they did.
I like to think that Preservation engineered Rashek’s Ascension (said as much in SH) in hopes Rashek could set up the circumstances for the atium Mistings.
Awhile ago I noticed it was implied that the kandra have prophecies of their own. Prophecies that Ruin will take control of them one day (hence the Resolution), that an army of Allomancers will appear, and that the mists might disappear. Rashek might’ve learned hints of the endgame hopes of Preservation i.e. atium Mistings and the Ascension of a successor. So he might’ve disseminated them into kandra culture.
Quote“There isn’t much time left,” TenSoon noted.
“I can see that,” Sazed said. “It makes me wonder what we can do.”
“This is the only time in which we could succeed,” TenSoon said. “We must be poised, ready to strike. Ready to aid the Hero of Ages when she comes.”
“Comes?”
“She will lead an army of Allomancers to the Homeland,” TenSoon said, “and there will save all of us—kandra, human, koloss, and Inquisitor.”
An army of Allomancers? “Then… what am I to do?”
Quote“Bah,” KanPaar said, waving his hand. “You worried when the mists started staying in the mornings, now you complain that they are gone? We are kandra. We are eternal—we outwait everything and anything. We don’t gather in rowdy mobs. Go back to what you were doing. This means nothing.”
“No,” a voice whispered into the cavern. Heads turned up, and the entire group hushed.
“No,” Haddek—leader of the First Generation—whispered from his hidden alcove. “This is important. We have been wrong, KanPaar. Very… very wrong. Clear the Trustwarren. Leave only the Keeper behind. And spread the word. The day of the Resolution may have come.”
Excerpt From
The Hero of Ages: Book Three of Mistborn
Brandon Sanderson
This material may be protected by copyright.Quote“Tell me, Keeper,” Haddek said as his brothers seated themselves, “what do you make of this event?”
“The departure of the mists?” Sazed asked. “It does seem portentous—though, admittedly, I cannot give a specific reason why.”
“That is because there are things we have not yet explained to you,” Haddek said, looking toward the others. They seemed very troubled. “Things relating to the First Contract, and the promises of the kandra.”
Quote“He made us promise,” Haddek said. “Each of us. He told us that someday, we might be required to remove our Blessings.”
“Pull them from our bodies,” one of the others added.
“Kill ourselves,” Haddek said.
The room fell silent.
“You are certain this would kill you?” Sazed asked.
“It would change us back to mistwraiths,” Haddek said. “That is the same thing, essentially.”
“The Father said we would have to do it,” another said. “There wasn’t a ‘might’ about it. He said that we would have to make certain the other kandra knew of this charge.”
“We call it the Resolution,” Haddek said. “Each kandra is told of it when he or she is first birthed. They are given the charge—sworn and ingrained—to pull their Blessing free, should the First Generation command it. We have never invoked this charge.”
“But you’re considering it now?” Sazed asked, frowning. “I do not understand. Simply because of the way that the mists are acting?”
“The mists are the body of Preservation, Keeper,” Haddek said. “This is a very portentous event.”
“We have been listening to our children discuss it all morning,” another said. “And it troubles us. They do not know all the mists represent, but they are aware of their importance.”
“Rashek said that we’d know,” another said. “He told us. ‘The day will come when you have to remove your Blessings. You’ll know when it arrives.’ ”
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I want to write a few stories that detail what Sazed and Vin’s Ascensions may be like with modern Brandon’s style of writing the phenomenon. Sazed’s Ascension involves the information in his copperminds, so I need to include that. But something I was curious about is what Sazed’s copperminds contained besides his religions.
Sure, religions were Sazed’s speciality but they’re not the only thing stored in his copperminds. We know that Tindwyl specialized in the biographies of pre-Ascension generals, kings, and emperors. They would’ve included leaders like King Wednegon, advisors or colleagues or scribes who wrote the biographies, and likely a potential timeline for the rise of koloss armies. Ancient places like Darrelnai and FellSpire would’ve been attached to them, as well as the significance of Alendi and Rashek being known as “the Conqueror.”
And yet, the only coppermind information that Brandon made relevant in the Words of Founding was Sazed’s religions… What the hell. Do Sazed’s copperminds just… not contain memories besides his religions? We know that’s not the case, so where’s the goddamn worldbuilding??? Where are the Basin historians studying the Words of Founding for what happened before the Final Empire? Where are the Pathian theologians studying the ancient religions? Or even the Survivorists studying ancient revolutionaries?
I mean, does alchemy even exist on Scadrial?
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The necessary conditions for becoming a god and the circumstances for Vin becoming a god are explained in Secret History.
Major spoilers for Secret History
SpoilerKelsier held the power of Preservation while Vin was in Fadrex City. Kelsisr needed to create an opportunity where Vin could Ascend without the earring on, which is why she didn’t Ascend until she fought against the Inquisitors in Luthadel.
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2 hours ago, Treamayne said:
WoB (there are many, but this one sums it up):
Xyrd (paraphrased)
You've mentioned before that Hoid ends up where he needs to be.
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Yes, and usually without knowing why.
Xyrd (paraphrased)
Is chromium involved in that?
Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Yes. Well, he's not necessarily using chromium, but the underlying mechanic, yes.
This reminds me of a major plot point in the Gargoyles universe. In the Gargoyles TV show there’s a magical island named Avalon. Going to Avalon is easy. But a visitor going home from Avalon is insanely difficult, and was the driving force for much of Season 2. Avalon doesn’t take you where you want to go, Avalon sends you where you need to be. And the visitor doesn’t know why.
It’s funny you linked the lerasium WoB. I was just thinking about why Hoid didn’t take the last two lerasium beads. I’m thinking Hoid’s Fortune had a vague sense of Preservation’s plan needing Elend to burn the last bead, and knew something bad would happen if he took it.
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On 5/2/2024 at 6:22 AM, Treamayne said:
Interesting theory.
You will get more in this in Stormlight Archive
To our current (incomplete) understanding (because Fortune is a Huge RAFO) - Fortune is the term for a Mortal drawing on Futuresight (possibly with a side of "instinct" such as Hoid's repeated "I know I need to be here, but I don't know why").
I’m excited for Stormlight!!!
I should discuss Fortune whenever I come across it. Though now I’m interested in that “instinct” of Hoid. Where’d you learn it from?
On 5/5/2024 at 5:02 AM, Y F-N said:Interesting ideas!
I personally believe that this particular instance has less to do with futuresight shenanigans and more to do with the fact that while Ruin has near-infinite power, his ability to pay attention to things is more finite. (Certainly far bigger than regular people, but he still can't consciously think about everything at once.) So, during the time in which Kelsier was interfering with Urteau, Ruin was far more focused on Vin. He wasn't paying attention to what was going on with Urteau in his futuresight because he simply didn't care as much about Urteau as he cared about the events in Fadrex City.
These in particular are very intriguing. I'm sure those ideas and their connection to futuresight are going to be bouncing around in my head for a while. You might be on to something.
I think I have a sightly different idea about Ruin’s failure in Urteau.
I appreciate the compliment!
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6 hours ago, Y F-N said:
I think if any Shard is at play here, it's actually Preservation. An entire society, remaining stagnant, never changing, being forever Preserved in a state of the past. It's kind of Preservation taken to the extreme. I recall in one of Kelsier's conversations with Preservation in Secret History that Preservation says he admires what the Lord Ruler created.
That would make the most sense. However, it appears Sanderson (bafflingly imo) went the direction of Preservation being the force of protection rather than stagnation. And instead, he pins all the Lord Ruler's Shard driven atrocities onto Ruin. In fact, while Fuzz likes the Lord Ruler because of his immortality and bringing of stability, it was mentioned he disagrees with the Lord Ruler's actions.
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The Lost Metal Prologue
I just finished the prologue of The Lost Metal. And Joe turned purple. And Wayne said some disturbing stuff. And Wayne was a messed up kid. It all goes downhill from here.
There was a passage where Wayne’s ma said “He flew. Using his Allomantic powers. Jak can fly, and talk to birds, and eat rocks.” I know this is a bedtime story that comes from the pulp (and delusions) of Allomancer Jak’s stories. And iirc his stories have a talking bird companion (delusion, lie, or kandra
). Though after SH I’m curious on whether or not Handerwym - a Connecter Ferring - could technically give Jak the power to talk to birds.
I know from SH that telepathy seems to stem from Connection shenanigans. Ruin telepathically speaks to Hemalurgic constructs through Connections facilitated by spikes. Kelsier as a Cognitive Shadow spoke to Vin’s mind through his Connections to her, and did the same to Vin and Spook as a Vessel of Preservation.
Is Handerwym able to manipulate Connection to telepathically speak to people or animals? Can he somehow extend the same power to Jak?
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On 4/22/2024 at 10:16 AM, Lord Spirit said:
Just wanted to add, there's potentially an additional example of wyrns foresight, which happens when the captain of the Elantris city gaurd is at the gate when Hrathen needs to leave Elantris, which he mentions as a "coincidence". But it's another example of a random person being at the right place at the right time for an unexplained reason (the captain would have no reason to expect someone would leave Elantris as it's never happened). I'm not sure how Wyrn would have arranged this, as Dilaf was unaware of Hrathens plan (he was shocked when he was Hrathen return); It would probably be from the direct influence of Jaddeth (autonomy?).
Interesting theory. Though it might be a normal coincidence, not brought into fruition by foresight or Fortune. Shard futuresight is… complicated. So Wyrn definitely can’t arrange the future perfectly.
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Making one last post about this before I move onto The Lost Metal, Warbreaker and Stormlight.
So after reading about Kelsier's precognitive plan for Marsh to remove Vin's earring, I speculated on a factor of Preservation vs. Ruin futuresight. I think the Vessels of Preservation see future possibilities that Ati:
- saw as unlikely possibilities but Ati acted upon - the frail possibility of Vin defeating Ruin.
- saw as unlikely possibilities and Ati dismissed - Elend sacrificing himself to drive Vin to murder-suicide.
- future possibilities Ati didn't see at all - the true meaning of the Terris Prophecies.
I don't know which category applies to "the few lines of light" that could save Urteau or get the Shard to Vin, or Marsh taking out Vin's earring because of Spook's message.
I think the Vessels of Preservation saw these unlikely possibilities or possibilities not in Ati's futuresight web, liked them best or felt they were necessary, and did whatever they could to thread towards the gambled possibilities in hopes they could come true. Some gambled possibilities of which are unlikely, fragile, frail to the Vessels of Preservation themselves - the true meaning of the Terris Prophecies, atium Mistings burning all of Ruin's body, Vin defeating Ruin. Also, a member of the Ire implied coincidences are caused by someone drawing upon Fortune. So I think Fortune + more possibilities in Preservation's futuresight web = better plans from its Vessels.I also think Leras' futuresight had a number of important touchstones:
- The Well cycle is on a fixed schedule which could be assumed as a given when he started designing his plans.
- He has invested more of himself into the Scadrians than Ruin had.
- Leras listens to the hearts of men. He hears the thoughts of all Scadrians, and not just those of the mad or spiked. This telepathic ability is so all-encompassing that Kelsier "knew" Goradel because of the power of Preservation, despite never knowing him.
- Ruin is trapped and can only influence texts, the unstable or spiked. Leras is comparatively free to influence the world.
- A significant portion of Ruin's investiture is separated and placed in the Pits.
- The Mists cover the world daily and are capable of obeying Leras' instructions like mass Snapping and empowering Vin against the LR.
An interesting thing I noticed was that Kelsier realized only when Sazed took the Shards that he's the Hero of Ages. This could be a hint that Leras knew his true desire for the Terris Prophecies and that the Hero of Ages might appear in the distant future. But he didn't know who the Hero of Ages would be, possibly not even in Sazed's lifetime. But he did whatever he could to thread towards it. This would be consistent with the fact foreseeing a mortal's cause of death isn't infallible in Preservation's futuresight web, so I can only imagine how cloudy it was for Leras to predict Vessel succession would happen after the deaths of himself, Vin and Ati.I wonder if a big part of this has to do with how the Shards "remember" their Vessels' personalities. Fuzz at least remembers what seems to be Leras' desire to protect the planet. To say that the Shard doesn't "remember" Ati is an understatement. I wonder if Ati's Ruin was once more much more dangerous and precognitively able.
I hope The Lost Metal shows how good Harmony is at seeing the future.
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7 hours ago, alder24 said:
More fragile or more concealed? Ruin didn't care about Mist-Snapped until Elend discovered that they are all Allomancers - only then Ruin ordered his Koloss to attack Fadrex to wipe them out. But that was just before Vin's Ascension, if that were to happen earlier, if there were Mistborn among those Mist-Snapped, all would have realized what's going on much earlier, Ruin would have kill them all much earlier as well and nobody would be able to prevent 300,000 Koloss from killing all those inexperienced Mistborn and other Allomancers. All of those electrum Misting would have been killed long before they would get a chance to ingest Atium.
And once again, per WoB it takes considerably more power to snap people into Mistborn - more than what it takes to snap them into 15 types of Mistsings. It's simply too much to ask from Mists, who had to work autonomously on their own, to snap Mistborn into existence. Then there would be no 16, as now you have only 2 types of snapped - Mistborn and electrum Mistings.
So you’re trying to say the Mistsnapping plan was a gambit to hide atium Allomancy from Ruin and the Mistings until the right moment. I’ll admit, that is pretty smart. Confusing but smart.
7 hours ago, alder24 said:Remember, the knowledge of the Shard comes into a new Vessel gradually, not all at once. It takes some time for a Vessel to comprehend what's going on, even though their mind is greatly expanded. Shards aren't omniscient. Vin was Preservation's Vessel for less than a day, Kelsier for much longer. Moreover Vin had no idea there was any plan set up by Preservation at all, she didn't know she can look for something like that (and conscious searching is what makes Vessels learn things Shards know), while Kelsier knew there was some plan - Leras was constantly repeating that, he even saw glimpses of it when Leras showed him the future. Vin was far more focused on what's here and now and how to prevent imminent destruction. While she figured out Ruin was incomplete as well, she didn't know that's part of the plan, as she didn't know there was any plan. She hadn't been Preservation's Vessel for long enough to figure stuff out and comprehend the knowledge Shard possessed, or maybe even to comprehend the future sight itself. She was too fresh for it, too inexperienced and overwhelmed, while also being under constant pressure from Ruin. When Kelsier Ascended Ruin mostly ignored that, he was still focused on Vin the most so Kelsier had more freedom than Vin had as after Vin's Ascension Ruin stopped focusing on her only when he discovered where Atium is.
This is evident from HoA epigraphs, where Sazed often says that he doesn't yet know something, or writes about what he believes or speculates to be the truth, not what he knows when he should have known. Plus we have WoBs that talk about it.
I don’t think “time” is at all relevant to Vin vs Kelsier’s knowledge of Preservation’s plans. Vin held Preservation for two days in a stable form. And iirc it was only days between Vin meeting Yomen in chains & Elend confronting Preservation, to Vin’s battle against the 13 Inquisitors. Between which Kelsier unreliably held Preservation, so that only lasted days. Not to mention there’s Sazed… who created the Words of Founding within a few minutes of holding Harmony.
Ruin did not ignore Kelsier. He was actively blocking Kelsier’s attempts to influence the world, and was easily damaging Kelsier because of his frayed divinity. Kelsier didn’t have as much freedom as you claim, couldn’t control the power in most moments, and he was almost killed by Ruin at multiple points. Kelsier only had the barest, little word hints that Preservation had a plan - “the Hero,” “the sign,” “the plan,” “sixteen.” And he wasn’t actively trying to find out if Ruin was weakened, or where his body is, or where the atium is.
Before her first action as Preservation, Vin seemingly spent hours floating around, exploring the world, knowing and learning things attached to the power. And unlike Kelsier, she was actively trying to figure out Ruin’s weakened state and the location of the atium cache. I say it again, this is definitely just a discrepancy between early Brandon and modern Brandon writing about Shards. The frayed, damaged Vessel-Kelsier only focused on giving the Shard to Vin automatically processed the atium Misting plan the moment Ruin said “atium.” There’s no in-universe reason Vessel-Vin couldn’t have done the same.
9 hours ago, alder24 said:If Rashek were to survive and Ascend again (just as Leras hoped for) nothing would happen for another 1024 years. Rashek was also the Hero, just like Vin was. That's why I believe the plan was more general, not specific. It was meant to be set in motion once Ruin is released, no matter when.
I heavily disagree but this is a fair take. It’s just some stuff are such a precise abnormality - like what Leras did to Kelsier and Elend - that it doesn’t seem like anything else besides part of the plan.
9 hours ago, alder24 said:I do take offense! If we start to ignore and cherry pick WoBs because they don't fit our personal beliefs, then we're stepping into shaky grounds of confirmation bias. We should be shaping our opinions based on available data, not on our wishes. I see no reason to dismiss those WoBs, Brandon planned his work far in advance, he wrote all Mistborn books at the same time, back to back, before releasing any of them, that was done specifically to pre-plan it all. Brandon has not retconed this, nor did he said something contradictory later on, those WoBs stand true.
??????
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On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:
It's a Sanderson traditional verbal sidestep. He did not say "I can only hear you when you have the earring in. . . "
Ahhh. That is a clever sidestep from Sanderson and Harmony.
On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:It's a Sanderson traditional verbal sidestep. He did not say "I can only hear you when you have the earring in. . . "
Very interesting. Hmmm. I don't mean to turn this into a rant but Sazed's Connection to Ruin is definitely something I wanna flesh out in fanfic. It feels like wasted potential especially now that Harmony is repressing Hemalurgy instead of embracing it. It's not noticeable or nuanced enough, especially since Ruin's existence and magic shouldn't still be in this weird, Morgoth-esque framework. It feels very... weak compared to the experiences of Wax or Kelsier.
On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:Possibly - I always took it to be closer to how Harmony communicated with Wax in BoM. Sazed is injured and dying, and already has a Connection to Preservation. In my head-canon Fuzz can whisper this because he is getting close to the threshold and there was enough Connection to bridge the gap (much like Kelsier and Spook after he removed the spike, now that I think of it).
The weird thing is Preservation can't whisper to minds who are unstable. Kelsier could bridge the gap w/ Connection because the Vessel was Connected to Spook. Harmony communicated with Wax because Wax's soul/idea/whatever was in the Cognitive Realm.
On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:The Latter is part of the explanation for the former. I beleive that Leras set up the prophesies so that the majority of the possibilities he foresaw ended in teh same result - a Human able to take up Preservation and being able to Destroy in order to Protect Scadrial. We just happened to read the story of the one that happened )but not necessarily the only one that could have worked). It's a Batman Gambit because many of the permutation relied upon Ati acting like Ruin (rather than acting like Ati before being consumed by his shard's intent). He didn;t just plan on Ruin not catching the details, he planned for Ruin's changes (sign of 16, etc.), his manipulations, and his tendancy to gloat when he thought all danger was passed and he had won.
That all makes sense. I believe the prophecies were purposely set up as vague to hide layers from Ruin and his futuresight. As you said, the sign of 16 meant he planned for Ruin to change the Mists. His manipulations... I guess that could be part of the Batman Gambit. After all he showed Kelsier visions of them. How is Ruin's tendency to gloat part of all this?
On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:Possible, I guess - but Vin's reaction to what happens is less than a minute after his beheading - not much further forward than a normal use of Atium. Not to mention his huge Connection to Vin amplifying how he could interpret her possible responses. I find it more likely that he saw only a few possibilities and all or most ended with her sacrifice to stop Ruin.
On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:Only if they were trying to access Futuresight at the same time. . .
I too find it more likely Elend was seeing only a few possibilities. Though tbf even if he did see "thousands upon thousands" of possibilities, Vin wasn't experiencing time in the same way as Elend. Vin also might've been seeing many more possibilities than Elend did. I'm gonna speculate that a mortal seeing into a Shard's future, even if they're hugely connected to the Shard or Vessel, is far more cloudy than the opposite.
I'm also gonna speculate that Vessel-Vin and Ruin's futuresight was a passive power, not something that needs to be activated like a magic system. I say this because when Vessel-Kelsier saw into the future it was worded like something he was just "doing" throughout the Urteau incident, not something he activated at a specific moment. The same idea seems to apply to Fuzz seeing into Kelsier's future.
On 4/12/2024 at 10:13 PM, Treamayne said:Glad you enjoyed the story and I hope it improved your opinion of Era 1.
Will you move on to the Lost Metal next, or save that for after other Cosmere?
Note: The Lost Metal has (arguably) the most Cosmere references so far, as well as spoilers for Stormlight Archive 2-4. That said, you would not be the first person I have known to read it before Stormlight Archive.
It did improve my opinion of Era 1. Though I'm still not a fan of Ruin's Intent being the fundamental opposite to stasis. I've warmed up to the Intent itself but not... that. Or the idea Ruin was so way too woefully behind Preservation in the 4D chess game. I might end up writing a fanfic where Ruin is the god of chaos lmao. With a bit of a roleswap where Ruin is the protagonist or good guy with The Plan, or at least much smarter than canon.
The Lost Metal is next.
On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:This, this is precisely why it matters. Atium doesn't fit. Everyone in the world always wondered about how weird Atium is compared to other metals and that was a clue that Elend and Vin needed to realize something weird is happening.
... I still don't get it. It's vague and the army of Mistings were easily more fragile than creating an army of Mistborn. Plus, the Mists already Snapped people into regular Mistings, so at least that bunch could've been Mistborn while the rest were atium Mistings. But I guess that's why it was a 'fragile distant maybe." I guess Shards make plans completely different than us mortals.
On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:Vin didn't know Leras' plan. She was surprised that Elend somehow found a whole army capable of burning Atium. She had no idea what was needed to be done. HoA ch 81:
Well... this is awkward. But tbf it’s a bit fuzzy since it was long before we knew of Kelsier’s time as Preservation. There might be discrepancies between how Vin learned of the plan VS how modern Brandon might write for a new Vessel. If modern Sando wrote Vin's Ascension, he would've wrote out that Vin learned Leras' plan for atium Mistings the moment she saw/learned these things - Rashek's storage caverns and strategies to hide atium, his use of the Well, Ruin's power hidden in atium, and the Pits of Hathsin themselves.
Remember that modern Brandon wrote out that Kelsier - the very unfitting Vessel - learned Leras' plan the moment Ruin uttered the word "atium." Kelsier, who wasn't even trying to delve into the "atium" thing unlike Vin.
On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:He did that every 1024 years, he prepared someone to take up the power to use it to maintain the status quo. This was solely because his mind was gone and he was unable to remember what his end plan was. He didn't act because of his plan, he acted because he wanted to prevent Ruin from escaping and only that mattered for him at this point. He only hoped that once Ruin escapes, his plan would be enough to stop him, not knowing what it was. Just go back and reread the first few chapters. Leras keeps repeating that Ruin can't escape, that Vin has to use the power and he is working only to prepare Vin for her role in maintaining the prison. He was totally stunned and frightened when Rashek died. Leras was dead at this point, he was unable to work on his plan that he didn't remember. Kelsier was just a happy accident that ultimately proved to be what his plan needed.
The thing with Rashek wasn't pre-planned action, it was a last ditch attempt to stop Alendi from freeing Ruin after Leras had realized that Alendi won't do what he should have done. It happened with Vin as well - Sazed was Leras' failed attempt to stop Vin from freeing Ruin, but this time Ruin was ready for it and had Marsh in a position to stop Sazed - something that he missed during Alendi's times.
I don't believe that Preservation's plan was specifically about Vin and Sazed, rather it was general enough to help people win against Ruin, no matter when Ruin is freed. If Vin were to use the power of the Well instead of releasing it, the plan would still exist 1024 years later and other people would be there to act on it. The plan was just a hope, a hope that people would see clues left for them and use them against Ruin. It might not have worked as well as it worked with Vin and Sazed, but there would still be people capable of doing what was necessary to do - because all people on Scadrial have both Ruin and Preservation on them, all are capable to destroy to protect just like Vin did, all are capable to understand the nature of both Shards as they all are made of their essence.
That's also how the future sight works, it gives you possibilities, not certain futures. Predicting how one specific person would be able to Ascend seems too much, but predicting someone, sometime will do this, if proper actions are taken and clues are left for them feels just right to me. If Alendi were to free Ruin, who knows, it might have ended with Rashek as a dual-Vessel. Or maybe Kwaan who back then played the same role as Sazed? Either way, I believe the plan was general enough to allow for some person to Ascend to both Ruin and Preservation if the time had come, but their success would depend heavily on them and their actions. The plan was to give people hope and relied on their hearts - not specifically on Vin or Sazed. In different times there would be others like them.
Leras' ultimate goal - likely his interpretation of Preservation - was not to maintain the status quo. It was to protect Scadrial. If he wanted to maintain the status quo, Scadrial wouldn't have reached early industrial tech before Rashek's Ascension.
I feel like you're ignoring a lot of things. The Plan wasn't to keep the prison active. The Plan was to thread towards a human who can Ascend to both Preservation and Ruin. And even though Leras lost his mind over millennia, he still needed to actively act. He was still cognitive enough to hear all thoughts, know all of Ruin's manipulations of minds, and talk to all passing souls in the Cognitive Realm. Kelsier's Survival was too much of an abnormality to just be a happy accident. You're seriously telling me no one in the history of Scadrial wanted to live as much as Kelsier or be revived? We should be seeing Cognitive Shadows and Survives handed out like candy, if what Leras did to Kelsier was just an "accident."
I'm also not convinced Leras immediately became the impotent Fuzz from SH. Impotent compared to Leras before the imprisonment, but not that impotent. And how can there be the Hero without any circumstances for the Hero to arise? How can there be the Hero or atium Misting army if there's a tyrant more powerful than the Hero, or if atium isn't well known and sought out? I believe those were the roles of Rashek and his death, even if Fuzz didn't remember.
I also think Leras wanted Ruin to be released, eventually. How can the Hero of Ages use both Shards if the capabilities of one are still restricted?
I agree that The Plan can generally be described as a hope. I don't think Preservation specifically planned for Vin and Sazed but some things in the plan feel too precise for Leras to just be picking anyone each cycle. Vin, Rashek, and Alendi didn't hold the future of the entire world on their arms. They weren't so intricately connected to the Terris people, and their struggles, and their wishes. And remember, Scadrians don't understand both Shards just because they're made of both Investitures. It's why Sazed is so notable among the Terris people. Vin till the moment of her death saw Ruin as nothing more than a force of death and destruction. Even Kelsier saw Ruin as this.
I think Leras knew Rashek or Alendi weren't self-sacrificial the way Vin could be.
On 4/13/2024 at 7:31 AM, alder24 said:Rashek was the prophesied Hero of the Ages - as per Terris original prophecies (WoB above). In my opinion Rashek, Vin and Sazed were all Hero of the Ages, but each had a different role to play. If Rashek took up the power again, he would have prevented Ruin from escaping, delaying the plan for another 1024 years - and that's what Leras at this time wanted. You said it yourself, Leras was at this point just a shadow of a Vessel he once was, his mind was mostly gone and he was unable to act on the plan he created himself. The plan was meant to give people hope and a fighting chance against Ruin without Leras's intervention, as he knew he would be dead by that point.
No offense, but I think I would prefer to ignore those WoBs about Alendi. They're very early in Brandon's career and there's nothing in-story that suggests Leras was grooming Alendi to take the Shard.
As for Rashek being the Hero of Ages.... just no. In my opinion. I think Brandon has been very clear that Sazed is the Hero of Ages. Not Vin, or Alendi, or Rashek, or Kelsier. It is Sazed. I think Leras had enough knowledge of their thoughts, Connections, and futures to know how the trajectory of their lives' could play into Connections to both Shards.
You're ignoring that Leras actively facilitated the plan throughout human history i.e. hid gems in all religions for the Hero. He didn't just do some things before the imprisonment and dipped. Remember this is the same guy who creates Cognitive holograms to communicate to every dying soul in the Cognitive Realm.
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On 4/16/2024 at 6:24 PM, hwiles said:
This is the literal kindest and coolest response back to my post as is possible. Elend is my favorite character, I just also am hyper aware of how annoying other people can think him to be for...reasons that can be self evident if or when needed...totally agree with you.
That's how conversations should be. Kind and cool! Hope to see you around the Shard more often! Hopefully I can post more often after finishing TLM.
I totally get you about Elend
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On 8/17/2022 at 1:34 AM, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:
I think that part of the message is that kelsier was sickeningly destructive. Preservation is good because his inherent intent is the protection of humanity. One thing i really like about the well of acension is that it shows the fallout of overthrowing a long established government. You are left seriously asking if that much death is worth it. Thus it makes sense that a good being who wanted to save humans would allow something like the final empire
I’m probably gonna start a debate or say an unpopular opinion, but I never understood takes like this. To be honest, I blame it on the infamous “Kelsier is a psychopath” WoB.
Kelsier is not sickeningly destructive. He doesn’t blow up cities or kill people for fun. He legitimately cares about his crew and the skaa, tried to save the world from Rashek’s tyrannical stagnation and Ruin’s destruction, loves Mare, and hates Ruin even though he’s very Connected to Ruin. Kelsier is flawed, not destructive. One good noble doesn’t prove that Kelsier’s slaughter of nobles wasn’t justified. His approach towards skaa who worked for nobles is iffy, but it’s still justified considering… well, their employers.
I like that aspect of The Well of Ascension too. But the destruction of the Final Empire was objectively worth it. Power struggles and vacuums will always exists after the fall of an empire. But Rashek killed way more people than Kelsier could ever hope.
A good being, no matter how much they wanted to protect people, wouldn’t allow something like the Final Empire. Granted, I think Rashek was part of Preservation’s Plan. But that still does introduce messed up things about Preservation. Hell, Rashek could use the Well’s power because he was Connected to Preservation’s attributes.
Anyway, I am absolutely in love with the concept of Preservation being the antagonist of Era 1. I love Sanderson but he did a piss poor job implying situations Ruin could be the good guy while Preservation is the bad guy. Even after reading Secret History, I was pretty disappointed by the lack of nuance within Ruin and Preservation’s conflict.
I’m honestly in the mood to write fanfic where Preservation is the bad guy or antagonist, and Ruin is the good guy or protagonist.
My friend is actually writing an AU with this idea. He was sharing ideas yesterday over on the 17th Shard Discord server. My friend’s username is Fox. These are his messages describing the AU:
QuoteMistborn AU where Ruin is the protagonist and Preservation is the antagonist
Ati was able to control Ruin a little bit more, channeling its Intent to destroy things that harmed humanity. But Preservation still did not like this destruction. He would rather humanity be harmed, but not destroyed, so long as everything in the universe stays stable with all its processes working smoothly. In his mind, Ruin is messing with the natural order of things, so he locks Ruin up. Preservation in this AU is more stable, so he continues to affect things around Scadrial to keep everything The Same. But Ruin was still trying to get out. Alendi and all that stuff happens, but Preservation uses Rashek killing Alendi for his own goals, manipulating him to create an empire without change. It doesn’t matter if people suffer, so long as everything is The Same.
Flash forward to the books, and Ruin manages to get enough of his power into the world to infuse Kelsier with some of it (fun morally good destruction guy, Ruin loves him). Kelsier notices he has some weird powers that he shouldn’t have, and it excites him, but it also freaks him it since he has no idea where it comes from. Eventually, an Inquisitor “accidentally” spikes him so Ruin can speak to him, explaining his plans. Kelsier is excited because a god trying to kill The Lord Ruler? Awesome! So he works with Ruin to kill Rashek. He still dies in this AU but becomes a Cognitive Shadow with Ruin’s Investiture, not Preservation’s.
Ruin figures out that in order to stop Preservation, they *both* need to be destroyed, so most from here on out goes similar to canon, with Harmony/Discord being created. Vin still has to take the power of Preservation to defeat Ruin, which really pisses Kel off.
Quote
Ruin is a protagonist in this AU in that him and Kel have the same goals- kill The Lord Ruler and destroy anything that tries to harm humanity. But Ruin is still the god of destruction, and still starts to destroy the world in HoA, because he sees it as necessary to prevent Preservation from causing people to suffer. When he realizes that he too is making humanity suffer, he purposely causes the actions that lead to his death and Harmony being created. Ati knows he’s losing himself and it’s terrifying0 -
Even after reading Secret History, I was pretty disappointed by the lack of nuance within Ruin and Preservation’s conflict. I’m honestly in the mood to write fanfic where Preservation is the bad guy or antagonist, and Ruin is the good guy or protagonist.
My friend is actually writing an AU with this idea. He was sharing ideas yesterday over on the 17th Shard Discord server. My friend’s username is Fox. These are his messages describing the AU:
QuoteMistborn AU where Ruin is the protagonist and Preservation is the antagonist
Ati was able to control Ruin a little bit more, channeling its Intent to destroy things that harmed humanity. But Preservation still did not like this destruction. He would rather humanity be harmed, but not destroyed, so long as everything in the universe stays stable with all its processes working smoothly. In his mind, Ruin is messing with the natural order of things, so he locks Ruin up. Preservation in this AU is more stable, so he continues to affect things around Scadrial to keep everything The Same. But Ruin was still trying to get out. Alendi and all that stuff happens, but Preservation uses Rashek killing Alendi for his own goals, manipulating him to create an empire without change. It doesn’t matter if people suffer, so long as everything is The Same.
Flash forward to the books, and Ruin manages to get enough of his power into the world to infuse Kelsier with some of it (fun morally good destruction guy, Ruin loves him). Kelsier notices he has some weird powers that he shouldn’t have, and it excites him, but it also freaks him it since he has no idea where it comes from. Eventually, an Inquisitor “accidentally” spikes him so Ruin can speak to him, explaining his plans. Kelsier is excited because a god trying to kill The Lord Ruler? Awesome! So he works with Ruin to kill Rashek. He still dies in this AU but becomes a Cognitive Shadow with Ruin’s Investiture, not Preservation’s.
Ruin figures out that in order to stop Preservation, they *both* need to be destroyed, so most from here on out goes similar to canon, with Harmony/Discord being created. Vin still has to take the power of Preservation to defeat Ruin, which really pisses Kel off.
QuoteRuin is a protagonist in this AU in that him and Kel have the same goals- kill The Lord Ruler and destroy anything that tries to harm humanity. But Ruin is still the god of destruction, and still starts to destroy the world in HoA, because he sees it as necessary to prevent Preservation from causing people to suffer. When he realizes that he too is making humanity suffer, he purposely causes the actions that lead to his death and Harmony being created. Ati knows he’s losing himself and it’s terrifying
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On 4/14/2024 at 8:05 AM, hwiles said:
Things like this is why I always tell people to read secret history before Era 2. Blend was a bit of an annoying know it all, but he's the only mortal to see what he saw, and it's good to understand how he did what he did and why it worked perfectly.
I don’t know about that fam. If I didn’t already read Era 2 up till Bands of Mourning, I would’ve been totally lost on Secret History’s core ideas of Connection and the brief mention of Identity.
Also now I have a theory on the Bands of Mourning, about potential ties to Ascension and the Cognitive Realm.
I don’t get the complaint about Elend lol. I always thought he was one of the most humble characters in the whole series.
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29 minutes ago, alder24 said:
We don't know where the Pits were located before Rashek's Ascension, as he changed the geography of Scadrial and moved its crust. But there was also perpendicularity at the Well - two in fact as there was also Ruin's Shardpool there. So it's likely that Atium spawning goods were located close to the Well. And that's Terris homeland, sure it's challenging to go there, but as proven by Rashek from Alendi's journal, for a Ferichemist this is not problematic at all.
That’s likely. But there’s nothing in lore that indicates atium spawned near the Well. Maybe I’m just being pessimistic, but it all feels like one big continuity snarl that makes theorycrafting a headache. I doubt anything connected to the Pits can be reliably connected back to what we know about Kwaan.
29 minutes ago, alder24 said:Source? Metal just glows in CR and that's not because he was a Mistborn, that has nothing to do with it - I have not seen anything that would indicate it's because he was a Mistborn that he saw metal glowing.
I never said this. What I meant was that Kelsier had the opportunity to see metal and souls glow because he persisted in the CR for a few minutes. Most dying souls don’t have the opportunity to witness this phenomenon because they’re either too shocked, not Mistborn or Full Feruchemists who can persist for a few minutes after death, or both. And yet again there’s nothing indicating Kwaan went to the CR through a perpendicularity.
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8 hours ago, alder24 said:
I don't think he needed Preservation for that. Realmatic Theory was a part of ancient Terris religion. Kwaan was able to travel to CR and that alone is enough to realize how metal looks for an entity watching it from outside of PR. It glows. If it glows in CR it means that it can't be read. Even Kelsier in SH immediately realized that metal and souls are the same thing. This is simple enough for Kwaan to reach that conclusion as well, especially if he knew about both Preservation and Ruin and their true nature, just like the First Generation of Kandra knew that (admittedly some of that might have come from Rashek after Ascension, but I think it's clear that ancient Terris was still aware of Ruin).
Cosmere spoilers:
Moreover Worldsingers and Worldbringers are connected and have the same origin, Worldsingers were founded by Hoid so it's very likely that Worldbringers have also connections beyond Scadrial and might be aware of Worldhopping.
Questioner
Worldbringers and Worldsingers, similar mission?
Brandon Sanderson
The similarity of the names is intentional.
Questioner
Similar origin?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes.
Questioner
Did Hoid start them?
Brandon Sanderson
That's a RAFO. That's a RAFO, but definitely they have a similar origin.
Nesh
So some of us happened across a line in [Mistborn: The Final Empire] that gave us pause. It's in the chapter 19 epigraph:
"Not so Kwaan. In a way, he is as unlikely a prophet as I am a hero. He never had an air of ceremonious wisdom - nor was he even a religious scholar. When we first met, he was studying one of his ridiculous interests in the great Khlenni library--I believe he was trying to determine whether or not trees could think."
This sounded to us like Kwaan the Terrisman might have been looking into or might have known something about Realmatics, like for instance knowing of the Realms and that things have aspects in all three. Is this the case? If so, was such knowledge common among his people or Scadrial?
Brandon Sanderson
Realmatic theory was part of the ancient Terris religion.
Respectfully, I disagree with this. Knowing some Realmatic Theory isn’t the same as traveling to the CR. Especially when, as I said before, there is no implication there were worldhoppers among the Worldbringers (besides Hoid, potentially). Especially when the location of Ruin’s perpendicularity is an annoying continuity snarl. Was it always in the Pits of Hathsin? We don’t know. Was it in the mountains near the Well of Ascension, where Fedik was stabbed? We don’t know.
If it’s the former, then that’s honestly a big question mark I doubt Sanderson will elaborate upon. If it’s the latter, then that’s an even bigger question mark considering how dangerous and holy the trek to the Well’s mountain is.
We need to remember that both Shards had heavy involvement in the religions of Scadrial. They could’ve hid hints on the Cognitive aspects of objects. Or Hoid could’ve seeded hints among his Terris comrades.
Kelsier was literally in the CR as a dying soul, and he only had the opportunity to see glowing metal and souls cuz he was a Mistborn - who persist in the CR for a few minutes. Even then, that was only possible because Kelsier chose to move around in the CR and Fuzz didn’t immediately communicate with him.
Now that I think about it, Kwaan’s quotes don’t necessarily mean he knows metal glows to Shards.
I think it’s much more likely that Kwaan paid attention to his metal tablets during his exile, constantly watching for interference from Ruin. Then he made the final metal tablet once certain Ruin never altered a word.
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After reading Secret History, I’m convinced Kwaan’s knowledge that Shards can’t read metal comes from Preservation Himself, as part of the plot to put Rashek into position to be that cycle’s Ascendant.
We know Kwaan has some knowledge of the Cognitive Realm, because he was researching if trees could think. However, there’s nothing in-text or WoB that suggest there were worldhoppers among the Worldbringers, much less Kwaan himself. We don’t even know any history about the Pits of Hathsin and worldhopping to Scadrial, apart from our knowledge on Preservation’s initial creation of the Pits and its history during the Final Empire.
I think Preservation gave Kwaan visions of the Cognitive Realm, of the fact metal glows to Shards and thus can’t be altered by Ruin (who can’t read the thoughts that Pres could use as a loophole). If not this, I think Preservation created Kwaan’s photographic memory for the aforementioned purpose of eventually nudging Rashek into position. Kwaan then just kept paying attention to his metal tablets, constantly watching for interference from Ruin. Then he made the final tablet once certain Ruin never altered a word.
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As far as we know, pure atium doesn’t permanently expand the user’s Cognitive aspect. As far as we know, pure atium is similar to Elend’s atium+duralumin, which presumably expanded his mind to process all the future possibilities that resided within his vision. Even though that combo Connected him to everyone and everything and allowed him to see into the Cognitive Realm, much like how a Shard sees into the future, it was only a temporary boost in Connection and cognition.
I assume pure atium works the same way. It expands the mind and Connection, but only for a short time.
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One of the things that bothered me about The Hero of Ages was Elend’s duralumin-atium burst. It’s iconic but it always annoyed me why Elend could do what Ruin couldn’t - foresee Preservation’s plan and Ruin’s death. However, now that Secret History has given insight into precognition I finally understand Elend’s sacrifice.
Elend never knew for certain if his sacrifice would be guaranteed to drive Vin to murder-suicide Ruin. But he aimed to protect the world and trusted Vin, so he sacrificed himself to help her. This is something Ruin - an unaware Vessel filled with the contextless embodiment of decay - was unwilling to do.
Before heading west to the Ire’s fortress, Preservation showed Kelsier a future vision that starts from him heading west. The future vision held Connections between Kelsier and his soul to Preservation, Kelsier to everything and everyone on Scadrial, Preservation to the ground and air and metals. And in the vision, it held a path of future possibilities - many, thousands upon thousands, infinite, tangled with each other. Kelsier could only glean vague, general impressions because his mind isn’t expanded to sort through or understand the sensation, the information, or the individual possibilities.
Elend saw into the future the same way Kelsier did - through glimpsing Connections. But he could understand all the possibilities because Atium expands the mind. When burning duralumin+atium, Elend became temporarily Connected to Kelsier, Vin, Ruin’s essence, the future, the past, everything and everyone in the battlefield. Those Connections are the blue lines pointing from his chest in the Physical Realm and the white lines in the Cognitive Realm.
Seeing the future possibilities within those Connections, but understanding them all because of Atium’s mind expansion. Judging from regular Atium and Kelsier’s vision, he probably saw the ”thousands upon thousands” of possibilities that could result from his current action - the fight against Marsh.
“I see now” is when Elend liked the general implication of the future vision - that he could drive Vin to sacrifice her life if it meant defeating Ruin. So he let Marsh kill him and hoped it would come true. But even the Shards of Adonalsium - those who foresee infinite possibilities and infinite actions - can be wrong about the possibilities they see as unlikely, likely, or thread towards.
All he could do was trust Vin and hope for the best outcome.
But where does this fit into the futures seen by the Shards surrounding these events - Ruin and Preservation? Ruin, the essence which fuels Elend’s future vision and the God whom foresaw what Elend saw. Preservation, the God Sanderson implies incorporated Elend’s death into his plan.
I believe for Ruin, his inability to acknowledge Elend’s future vision was not a matter of seeing the possibilities. But rather, it was a matter of seeing them as likely possibilities. Ati the Vessel basically didn’t exist anymore. Ati didn't even remember what planet he was working on, virtually a shell filled with Ruin's Investiture. Ruin the God foresaw the possibilities within Elend's future vision, but either saw them as unlikely or dismissed them entirely. You could even say he was a god that no longer understood or acknowledged the loving sacrifice that existed within his foreseen future possibilities.
Ruin the God didn’t embrace life or acknowledge that life needs to persist. Ruin didn’t sacrifice. He said he was life, and yet Leras/Fuzz comforted life when Ruin did not. And for this, he dismissed Elend’s futures and paid the price.
Preservation protects. Preservation listens to the hearts of men, for it hears all thoughts of all Scadrians. Leras understands sacrifice, for the divinity sacrificed his mind and equal pedestal to Ruin. This was for the sake of protecting in the long run. This is why he wanted Elend to have the lerasium bead. Leras chose a successor who could live a life highly Connected to Preservation’s attributes, and might sacrifice her life for the greater good. He foresaw someone might use one lerasium bead for the pieces of the plan to fall together. And when the time came, He saw Vin’s lover as someone who might sacrifice his life for the greater good. Someone who could use the bead. Leras bet those possibilities would come into play at the last moment, did whatever he could to thread towards them, and hoped it paid off.
8
I'm reading Wax & Wayne for the first time
in Mistborn
Posted
It’s alright. Guess I should make a new introduction post