Andrew the Great

I second (third?) the notion. It's been bothering me.

So maybe everyone else caught this and I'm just unobservant, but the titles to the parts of Way of Kings form a palindrome. Just saying. That's pretty awesome. Not that it doesn't make sense, what with the importance of Palindromes on Roshar, but I just hadn't noticed. EDIT: I don't mean a palindrome. I mean the other thing, where the words are mirrored, not the letters. I just can't think of the word right now.

A thread on TWG discussing this issue. Chaos came through and provided a quote to answer. As to what he'd call himself, we really have no idea. Hence the idle speculation on the matter.

I never questioned whether palindromes were considered holy. I was just saying that it seems likely that the ardents changed all of the names of people who were supposed to be holy so that they'd be palindromes. In the same way, I know that ten is a holy number as well, but I don't know if it's holy because there are ten heralds and ten orders of radiants, etc (the ardents again) or if there are ten orders of radiants and ten heralds because ten is a holy number. I'd be more inclined to believe the first, myself. Note: If this is addressed in the Q & A link, I apologize for bringing it up. I'm leaving and don't have time to listen to it right now. I'll catch it later.

Yeah.... I had to go find my page of summaries (which I should probably be writing right now, rather than posting here), and add a link to it on the Way of Kings page, but I guess I'll forgive you for that..... this time.

I agree that it's most likely that Chasmfiends are Thunderclasts. Even with the scene with Dalinar that I was being picky about, there's too much pointing towards it for me to ignore. Does anyone else find it interesting that the Parshendi fight to get the gemhearts out of the Chasmfiends when I believe it was mentioned that the Parshendi see the Chasmfiends as some sort of gods? So why kill it and cut it up to get a gem out?

I don't know that we can count all of the Way of Kings 10s more than once. After all, if I'm right, There are ten orders of Radiants because there's ten Essences (and the same might be true of the Heralds) , ten devotaries because there are ten orders of Radiants, etc. Admittedly, though ten heartbeats is its own thing.

It would certainly relieve the issue of planet hopping as well, as they could just use space travel instead of having the added condition that they know how to use Shadesmar to planet hop. That said, if I had to guess, since Brandon's books so far I believe were published in roughly chronological order (and I'm not sure why I believe this.... there could be a quote, or it could just be me making this up), we're not such a terribly long time after the events of warbreaker, which took place not so long after mistborn, which took place not so long after elantris.

.... I was going to come in and fiercely argue that Bavadin could hold Odium just because it would mean that everyone was screwed, and that would make it interesting, but your logic on that last point is too solid. That's the first argument that I've heard that Rayse is Odium that I've found absolutely convincing (although, to be fair, I did believe so. I just hadn't yet heard an argument that made me think we had really solid proof of it.).

What? The wiki is actually semi functional? Hurray for not having to do everything by URL anymore!

I'd probably be slightly more forgiving of the lack, except that Dalinar is looking right at a Thunderclast and describing it. You'd think that at that point, the similarity would occur to him. Though granted, he is witnessing the destruction of Kholinar. He's a little traumatized.

Well yeah. That's kind of the point of this conversation. What will Sazed refer to himself as, though? Or will he just say, "I'm Ruin and Preservation." We're not necessarily talking about right now. This is on a long term basis. After all, we get some Mistborn books set quite a ways ahead....

It occurs to me that if Hoid were a member of the 17th shard, he would refer to them as "our friends," not "your friends." That said, he could have had a falling out or something.

God. Or if you insist on something more shard based, I'm more inclined to Ruination myself.

It makes sense, but this also confuses me even more. After all, Dalinar was there. He saw that picture, which I agree is likely of a thunderclast. And yet he didn't appear to recognize the thunderclasts later on in his vision.

I did, but only after I realized that the rest of the shard names were words as well, and googled Odium. We aren't explicitly told anywhere that Rayse is Odium. Chaos in particular seems to rather avidly believe this. It makes a lot of sense, and I think it's the most likely possibility, but it's possible that Odium is in fact a different shard from the one Rayse inherited. In fact, if Bavadin possessed Odium, that would make things really interesting, as it would mean that Rayse is still out there with a worse shard than Odium.

Ok. So Hoid could have picked it up in Jah Kevad, wherever Szeth hid it. That makes a lot of sense. It is odd that Took (Szeth's master at the time) tells a story about a sphere that glows as black as night. It seems like if he was going to make up on object that he'd stolen from the Nightwatcher, he'd choose something a little more exciting.

Although in favor of chasmfiends and thunderclasts not being related, Dalinar doesn't think to himself even once that the thunderclasts look like chasmfiends, or mistake them for chasmfiends. So thus, despite the incredibly similar descriptions, we have to assume that they don't look as alike as I at least had presumed they did. That said, they're described so similarly it has to be intentional. Either they're related in some way, or Brandon wants us to think they are.

]An insult doesn't have to be well crafted to get under someone's skin. Some people are VERY sensitive about their age. Has anyone considered the possibility that Hoid is actually talking to a very large, old snake? Then it's not even in insult. I admit that this would be a very interesting development. Hoid being a mistborn would be pretty intense, though I don't know that it will figure much into Way of Kings even if Hoid did take Lerasium with him. Brandon's books are supposed to be independent of each other, at least in the sense that you can read one without needing to read the others. If we see Hoid doing mistborn stuff, it will be as unexplained magic in Way of Kings, since Brandon really doesn't have time to go into the mechanics of allomancy again.

If they aren't made from stone, they're skin is remarkably similar. The second sentence describes it as an enormous stone beast. But it could be metaphorical, too. Also, it's entirely possible that the chasmfiends could develop a stone shell of some sort. After all, thunderclasts apparently bleed, which hints that they're more than just stone. Unless it's other voidbringers that have purple blood, but Kalak doesn't mention any others aside from thunderclasts. Although there are apparently some Parshendi around (based entirely off of the comment about orange blood). That was like four or five qualifying sentences in a row. Wow. Thunderclasts appear to be sentient before joining the fighting. They rip themselves free to join the fray, as opposed to being ripped free. They could still be created by magic while in the stone, then rip themselves free, though. I still hold that they are more than just stone, though, as the only thing we've seen that bleeds purple is a chasmfiend, and they are remarkably similarly described to thunderclasts. That, and the presence of purple blood in the Prelude, make it likely that thunderclasts bleed, though I admit I can't prove it.

Point taken, and you're right. I'm still not sure that we can say that the Shard-fueled magic systems would work on a different planet, thousands of miles away from the Shard. Also, it seems unlikely that Hoid would be particularly concerned about a bead of lerasium - what good or harm will one more mistborn in the world do? Hoid doesn't have the "voidlight" sphere - Szeth still does, I believe. Although I might have missed some point when he talks about dropping it. In that case, Hoid could pick it up, which makes a lot of sense, as it would still be the only sphere of its kind, and its apparently important for some reason or another. If Hoid has another voidlight sphere, then it's the second of its kind that we know of, and it thus becomes less likely to be the element, as a) it becomes less likely to do something incredibly awesome, it becomes less likely that he's been able to protect it, and c) it becomes less likely that it's rare, and if both groups had access to its power (whatever that may be), the advantage of one side having it are negated. Could it be that Szeth is the home that Hoid speaks of that he's found for the element? But then the line about him protecting it like he does his own skin doesn't make much sense. Hmmmmm.....

I doubt that it's any of the above, as a) they're dead, and therefore not likely to continue growing anything, aside from which, the Parshendi have armor while alive, and are confused by the Parshmen (why don't they sing?), which they probably wouldn't be if they had been through a phase earlier where they died and grew armor. See previous sentence, and also, the Parshendi just let their dead sit there as well. c) they're dead. They don't seem likely to meet up with any spren but Deathspren. And not even them, if they're already dead. My thoughts: The Shin apparently believe that stone is sacred - why not the Parshendi too? Thus, leaving them on stone. However, I'm not sure why they leave them where they are and get upset if they're moved. They wouldn't be the first culture to have really specific rituals for their dead, though. What I want to know is, where do all the bodies go? They've been at war for six years - shouldn't the Parshendi (and Alethi, for that matter) bodies be piling up in the Chasms? My personal pet theory at the moment is that the chasmfiends eat them.

Wow. The second time in 2 hours I've had something explained to me in a pokemon analogy. Not to mention all the talk lately about Codex Alera being based off of pokemon. It's definitely a possibility. I have to wonder, though, why there aren't at least SOME thunderclasts around. I mean, first of all, the Alethi and Parshendi have apparently only been on the Shattered plains for the last several years. It seems that Chasmfiends that pupated before that would still be around as thunderclasts, especially since the Alethi don't mention killing any thunderclasts (though admittedly, it's possible that they think that thunderclasts = chasmfiends, and just didn't think anything of the differences). Also, it seems like they would eventually have Chasmfiends pupate on the really isolated plateaus that can't be accessed via bridge or jumping. Then we'd have thunderclasts as well. So why no thunderclasts? I suppose this could be akin to asking why the Parshmen aren't all Parshendi, but at the same time, if pupating is the means by which chasmfiends become thunderclasts, it seems odd that they pupate, but there aren't any thunderclasts. Although maybe they're hidden in the stone of the chasms - in the prelude it mentions that the ground is torn where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free. If thunderclasts can become part of the stone, or buried in it somehow, that would explain a lot (and also explain the need for them to rip themselves free, incidentally).

That's what I was trying to get at earlier. On that note, however, it doesn't seem particularly likely that Odium would be able to create all that much, although I suppose Odium is not as much of a complete opposite to Creation as Ruin was, so He may be able to create some things as long as they're related to hate and bitterness. What a depressing existence. Although I have to say, it's interesting to think that Odium probably created the Voidbringers, and yet the Parshendi, our only current candidates for Voidbringers (along with parshmen and chasmfiends, of course) seem to act with more honor than most men. They don't seem to be creatures of hate, particularly. Though, I suppose Odium could have created them based on his hatred of other things, and had them come out semi-normalish. Now I'm just rambling again. I do that. Apparently the Almighty could create, and I have to wonder if Cultivation didn't play a major role in the development of Roshar. Seems like a handy Shard to have around when you're trying to get a group of people to grow and flourish.

What makes you think Hoid's trying to keep Adonalsium from being put back together? The only thing I can think of either way on that is when he's talking to Dalinar about Adonalsium, and there really isn't much either way to tell what he thinks on the subject of putting Adonalsium back together. I can definitely see him being an ex-member of the 17th shard. However, based on the fact that they're looking for him (and it doesn't seem like it's just like "Hey, one of our group left. Let's go hunt him down!"), it makes sense that he knows something that they don't, so in order for that to work, he would have had to have learned something important after leaving the 17th shard, and they have to know that. It makes more sense, in my opinion, for him to just be independent of the organization, with them having knowledge of him, but not what he knows. If that makes sense. And I don't know that Hoid would see the absence of magic as an evil thing. The only difference in the lives of the characters would come from a lack of magic. So what would the effects be on each world with a lack of magic? Elantrians would stop being Elantrians, but they've all lived normal lives before, and I don't think it would be too difficult of an adjustment for them. No more mistings or Mistborn, but then again, have we actually seen them used for anything other than assassination? Allomancers are handy in a fight, and I guess if you're trying to manipulate people's emotions, but I don't know that seeing them go would be a bad thing for Scadrial. Nalthis.....that's an interesting case, there. Awakening is VERY integrated into society. A lot of people would have to get used to not having Lifeless anymore, and with no more Returned, Halladren (I think that's the name of the city......it's been too long since I read warbreaker) would have to find itself a new method of rule. None of these things are necessarily terrible effects, though, and I don't think that Hoid would see them as evil. Also, it's entirely possible that putting Adonalsium back together wouldn't destroy the magic systems - we just don't know. Personally, I think it's more likely that Hoid's playing the role of Shard Police, and just trying to make sure that none of the people holding Shards get too power-happy. "Oh, look, I'm like a God now! Let's go blow some stuff up!" It seems to fit with what we've seen so far, what with him helping out in Mistborn to take out Ruin (though apparently it all takes place behind the scenes). Admittedly, I have no idea why he's on either Sel or Nalthis, though I suppose it's possible he's just checking on the Shards there. And that about sums up my thoughts, incoherent as they are at the moment.