Letryx13
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On 1/18/2025 at 10:31 AM, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said:
Taravangian airing Jasnahs dirty laundry, bringing up stuff from book 1.
I admit, I've disliked Jaasnah since her 'lesson' for Shallan.
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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:
No, that line is not fine. Harmony treated Waxillium like an attack dog, not like a man. There was one crucial error he made. He lied to Waxillium on who Paalm was. Incidentally Harmony failed for a reason related to the reason Jasnah Kholin failed. Utilitarianism does not work.
It's a finer line than most give it credit for. And I wouldn't say he treated Wax like a dog, but like a soldier. Wax himself set out on the path to being a law man in the roughs. But as far as Paalm goes, the only thing we know for sure about what she was ordered to do was keep an eye on Wax and then try to draw him back to Elendel, the second of which she refused to do. Harmony's mistake was at that point, when he wasn't upfront with needing Wax's help. He should have sent another kandra to Wax to help recruit Wax back to Elendel, not had Lessie "killed" to drive him back.
But importantly, I think he learned from that mistake. I think that's why he was so more transparent about what was going on in TLM about Autonomy. Sazed said himself that he was trying to do better.
1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:Harmony does not want soldiers. If he wanted them, he'd make improved Koloss and Kandra and he'd arm them with high-tech weapons. The threats to Scadrial are hidden, not overt for now. He needs a 00 agent. He wants James Ladrian or Black Widow, not Captain Scadrial. A cop is closer to that than a soldier. He has a Black Widow. Now he needs a Bond and an Ironman.
He needs all of that. But I think he has the right idea in avoiding Hemalurgy. Even if he does control Ruin, there's too much opportunity to exploit it. Don't forget about the creatures that attacked Wax and Tensoon in the kandra homeland. And who knows what else it might be capable of.
1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:He should want a Captain America.
He should want that too.
10 hours ago, morcey2 said:Can someone make Wax the Herald of Marksmanship with all the new firearms tech that is going to be coming into play?
Nah, he's more like a cowboy Sherlock Holmes. Way cooler.
2 hours ago, BinarySecond said:In the example given they started with children. Harmony took a man that he saw potential in; much too late for similar results. Honestly; Harmony just needs to find a soldier and Wax isn't a solider, he's a cop.
Honestly I don't recall at what point in Wax's life Harmony took an interest, I only know it goes back as far as his time with his first wife - It could be as simple as Wax just wasn't wired up for the role despite conditioning.
As far as we know, the first example of Harmony trying to influence Wax directly was when Melaan gave him the first earring. And Wax was already on his way to the roughs to try and make a difference there. I don't think Harmony pushed Wax as hard as most people think. At least, not toward becoming a lawman.
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On 1/21/2025 at 6:06 PM, OverlordBob999 said:
We know that the time dilation-affected ending of WaT encompasses all of Mistborn Era 2, but would Harmony utilize Wax against Retribution at any point? TSM implies/states (I forget exactly which, forgive me) that there will be a Roshar v. Scadrial conflict in the cosmere future, though Scadrials side could also likely consist of various characters from Era 3, as well as Marsh and Kelsier. However, I would be very interested to see a Wax v. Blackthorn duel at some point. Ideologically, the law/civilization/humanity against conquest/brutality/inhumanity would be interesting, plus also cool swords versus cool guns.
Thoughts?
Give how time is moving much faster outside of Roshar than inside, it seems unlikely. I would have loved to see Wax visiting Roshar as a diplomat, had things gone differently on Roshar, but alas, it was not to be.
15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:The issue I see is that Retribution is on the run. And I think Brandon did that intentionally, because he wants to reduce the scope of the story line from gods clashing to more human proportions. And that is wise.
Agreed. Sanderson built up things dramatically in the first half from Kaladin trying to save bridge four to becoming a herald and Dalinar having strange "dreams" to becoming a deity. Need to reset the scale a bit.
15 hours ago, BinarySecond said:I think Harmony knows where he went wrong with Wax - He's become a family man and most importantly doesn't want to be the sword. The issue regarding the actions Harmony took to try and forge his sword were immoral and traumatic.
I don't like what Harmony did, but at the same time, he started out the right way. He was trying to have Wax grow as a law man and warrior and eventually bring him back to Elendel. He went about handling Lessie's defiance the wrong way, but by that point, there probably wasn't enough time to find anyone else.
14 hours ago, BinarySecond said:100% agree - The very concept is flawed. Taking an budding individual and attempting to sculpt them is no way to get what Harmony wants.
Well, Wax had wanted to be a hero since he was a child, and I doubt that was due to any specific influence on Harmony's part. Lot's of kids on Skadriel probably dream of being like the Ascendant Warrior. Harmony probably took advantage of that, and I'm not thrilled that he did, but at the same time, he is genuinely trying to help his people.
One of the questions that kept coming up in Mistborn Era 2 characters was why Harmony would just let things happen, and the answer that kept coming up was how Harmony was guiding people to help. Well, the line between guiding and manipulating is fine, so I can understand how Sazed could take things too far, despite good intentions.
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56 minutes ago, Master Silver said:
This is head canon, but since we know Sig almost immediately went off world, he can only be talking about himself and the high spren. That would be we. They both ran away instead of staying to help. I know Sig was hurting, and I guess holding the Dawn Shard made him leave though
Well, Hoid did instruct him to get off world. So that likely had something to do with it. We know that things eventually soured between Sig and his master, but it seems like that takes place after WaT.
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One thing that Sanderson did great with this book was the many callbacks to the earlier books in the series. From Kaladin's famous declaration, "Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do," to the father of the boy Adolin saved in Thaylen city being so loyal to Adolin, to the Takama in Dalinar's quarters having the belt wrapped twice, there were a lot of great call backs.
My personal favorite was Kaladin asking Nale if Lyft had defeated him with the fork. I genuinely laughed out loud at that. But what was your favorite?
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On 1/14/2025 at 8:33 AM, Hexagonal said:
I agree with you on this. BAM being the biggest non-shard rival to Retribution would give her a lot of "street cred" with people, especially ones who might not want to fully resist Retribution yet. I could see BAM leading a group of singers that are more independent from Retribution but still kinda under him, like a satellite state.
The problem is that if the singers get wind that BAM was the spren their ancestors were bonded to, turning them into parshmen, they may be reluctant to work with her. She may not have done it intentionally, but there's still a risk factor.
On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:I was wondering the same thing, there's definitely a nice setup for chaos and massive shift in power dynamic.
The Shards are already on the move, likely pursuing two main objectives. Their primary goal seems to be locating Taravangian and forcing him into a direct confrontation where he’s outnumbered. I suspect they wouldn’t hesitate to destroy the entire Rosharan system if that’s what it took to eliminate Retribution. However, whatever protections are in place around Roshar still appear to hold, forcing them to act indirectly through proxies.
Agreed. We don't know which shards would be doing this, but it's clear that Harmony would if he could. Unfortunately, not only is he dealing with his own threat in Autonomy, but there's the issue of him having trouble acting while holding opposing shards. Of course, a common threat tends to unite people, even when they have their differences from one another. So if three or more of the shards can work together to pin Retribution down, he's screwed.
On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:Their secondary goal would likely be to pacify Roshar and its surgebinders. Weakening Taravangian’s foothold by destabilizing his loyal factions or neutralizing the threat of surgebinding would significantly undermine his influence. Infiltrating Roshar, taking control of its politics, and luring Retribution out of hiding seems like the most probable strategy to achieve this.
Also agreed. It's somewhat ironic, considering how much they've been a problem for Roshar, but the Ghost Bloods would be extremely useful for this, since it's exactly the sort of thing that their leader is good at. It's basically how he achieved his first real victory against a different, albeit more well intentioned, would be deity.
On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:I believe that Taravangian hasn’t left Roshar entirely. More likely, he’s hiding within the Spiritual Realm. Roshar is critical to his plans, and abandoning it would be an enormous risk, especially considering how heavily invested he is in the system. However, his ability to exert influence is now limited. He’ll be forced to act subtly to avoid detection, as any overt moves could draw the attention of other Shards.
Hard to say. But I suspect if there's anything of him left on Roshar, it's not much. He won't risk himself getting caught like that. Taravangian basically thought he won Roshar by taking up the shard of Honor. And he's arrogant enough to assume that no on left there would defy him. Time will tell.
On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:Taravangian’s absence from direct control has left his newfound empire with an empty throne, creating a massive power vacuum, especially with the Fused, Radiants, and Heralds largely out of the picture. In this void, new factions are bound to emerge, each vying for dominance over Roshar.
Exactly. That's the premise for this idea.
On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:El will likely take control over Odium loyalists. His vision aligns closely with Taravangian’s methods, emphasizing order and calculated ruthlessness. He may aim to bring both singers and humans under his leadership, forming a cohesive, authoritarian, force.
He's the obvious choice. But the thing is that we still know so little about him. So it's hard to say what it is that he really wants.
On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:On the other hand, Ba-Ado-Mishram could become a rallying point for dissenters. With Retribution unable to fully manifest his Intent, power may gravitate back toward her. Unlike Rayse, Taravangian never presented himself as one of the singers, which could alienate many Parshendi. Ba-Ado-Mishram, with her historical connection to their people, may once again rise as a symbol of resistance and leadership.
She's arguably the biggest wild card left on Roshar, except possibly the Night Watcher. There's no real way to know what she's going to do. Rayse never wanted her freed, likely realizing that her imprisonment was part of why the shard of Honor hadn't chosen a new vessel. But since it was both a human who locked her up and a human that helped free her, it's impossible to guess what she's planning on doing.
On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:Meanwhile, the Blackthorn has his own mission - gathering his Nine Shadows. This task will inevitably place him in direct conflict with Ba-Ado-Mishram, as her influence threatens his ability to consolidate power. Dalinar remains a potent symbol, and many humans—and perhaps even some singers—will rally behind him. This time, his vision of unity might come not through diplomacy, but conquest.
This is one of the things I didn't like about this book. It makes sense that the spiritual aspects of people can connect, even across time, but for the spiritual aspect of Dalinar in the past to become aware like that opens up way too many possibilities. It's basically magical cloning. Assuming this new Blackthorn becomes as alive as Dalinar, then there's no reason he couldn't travel back to the spiritual realm and do the same thing to more past versions of Dalinar.
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3 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:
Amd that's why I said she doesn't have to do the same thing she did last time, since they don't need forms of power from her, so the risk wouldn't be the same, either.
True, we have no idea what she might do to help the singers this time around.
3 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:Why not? I mean, it's not like we have gotten to know her that much.
No one enjoys it when their help goes unappreciated. Who would a pseudo-deity rather support, people who appreciate her help or people who don't?
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22 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:
By getting captured by some new dastardly human weapon? Not sure I'd blame her for that in their position, assuming I'd know anything about that at all. Apart from that... it's not really the singers' choice, is it? If she decides to support dissidents, she'll support dissitents, and they can't really stop her. What are they gonna do, tell Retribution?
Well, it's more of a question of risk than blame. However it happened, it happened while they were all bonded to her. As far as who she supports, it's true that she would likely focus on those who oppose Retribution, well, she's probably not going to go where she's not wanted. And she likely can't empower Singers without their consent.
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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:
There will be internal social conflict. The next generation of Singers will not be content with letting the Fused rule. In fact they will eventually see them as parasitic bodysnatchers. If Fused bodies age they will be forced to use suicidal Singers or criminals tortured into accepting a Fused as hosts. That is not a recipe for staying popular.
Also true. Venli managed to recruit people in Kholinar largely because of their fear of being taken over by Fuzed. Or at least their desire to be free of them.
43 minutes ago, RedBlue said:Conflict within Singer nations may be a problem, too.
With Taravangian’s attention being diverted, territories that don’t have clear leadership in place (Alethkar, Shinovar, Iri) are going to have a power struggle bonanza. The Fused have the upper hand in terms of authority and fighting ability, but only 2000 of them are functional. And the ‘functional’ Fused include many who are unsuited or unwilling to fill administrative roles. So you can fill out the most senior government positions with Fused, but other civil servants will have to be quickly recruited from the local humans and Singers. There’s going to be a mad scramble for influence.
And on top of that, there will likely be myriad splinter groups of Singers (and humans!) who don’t like being subjugated by Shards and Fused, and want to break away. And Venli and the Willshapers on the Shattered Plains are in place to aid their cause.Exactly. The Fuzed will only be capable of doing so much with so few of them. And without a war to keep the singer masses focused outward, they're going to want to assert their independence.
46 minutes ago, RedBlue said:And the nature of Retribution could make it hard for Taravangian to crack down on this sort of thing, even when he does have time and bandwidth to deal with it. Odium likes people who struggle to assert their own will, even if they’re disagreeing with the power’s Vessel. And Honor will severely limit Taravangian’s options in wrangling his subjects, because it will hold him to the letter of every promise he makes.
That's another factor, but then again, Taravangian could view that as a betrayal of loyalty to him. And we don't know how long it will take Honor to grow enough to begin exerting more influence over Taravangian's decisions.
15 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:Which singers? Which is kind of the point of the thread, isn't it?
Yes, it mostly depends on how many Singers know how they ended up as Parshmen. Some would likely be willing to trust Mishram again, but most would likely be wary of allying with her again. Taravangian noted the his most valuable asset with the Singers was their rage toward humans. The reason most singers hated humans so much was because of what they were forced to endure as Parshmen. And Mishram was a big part of how they got turned into Parshmen.
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27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:
Or forge a peace. Way back in OB we see in the disussion with the Fused and the Thaylen Singer (Venli Translating) that the Singers didn't want to attack their home and did not seem to mind the idea of living with humans, so long as they were free. It was the fused pushing to "eradicate all humans" not the singers.
OB Ch 115:
“We…” The singer licked his lips. “We aren’t soldiers, ma’am. We’re fishers. What are we doing here?” Though a shade of the Rhythm of Anxiety laced his words, his cringing form and face were the stronger indication. He spoke and acted like a human.
She interpreted.
“You are here to do as you are told,” the Fused told them, through Venli. “In return, you are rewarded with further opportunities to serve.” Though his rhythm was Derision, he didn’t seem angry. More … as if he were lecturing a child.
She passed that along, and the sailors looked to each other, shuffling uncomfortably.
“They wish to object,” she told the Fused. “I can read it in them.”
“They may speak,” he said.
She prompted them, and their leader looked down, then spoke to Anxiety. “It’s just that … Thaylen City? This is our home. We’re expected to attack it?”
“Yes,” the Fused said after Venli interpreted. “They enslaved you. They tore your families apart, treated you like dumb animals. Do you not thirst for vengeance?”
“Vengeance?” the sailor said, looking to his fellows for support. “We’re glad to be free. But … I mean … some of them treated us pretty nice. Can’t we just go settle somewhere, and leave the Thaylens alone?”
“No,” the Fused said.
Possibly. But that akso proves the singers weren't as united as the humans thought.
11 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:Oh, and then there is BAM. The less attention Retribution can spare, the more Mishram can be expected to meddle, and she certainly will be where her people are, if anywhere.
True. She is absolutely a huge factor. But after what happened last time, the singers will likely be hesitant to work with her.
4 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:I'd say it was already more complicated than that. The Listeners decided to walk away from singer "identity" long ago, and I'm sure they were hardly the only ones unhappy with how things were going back then.
Agreed. Rabonial confirmed there were many attempts to resist Fuzed rule in the times of the ancient radiants.
5 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:I expect this is only part of what Brandon is trying to show us. I think it's safe to assume that he's picturing the pre-human-invasion singers as similar in many ways to pre-colonial indigenous peoples here on Earth, like native Americans or native Africans. There was no uniform culture across those vast continents, but rather a multitude of tribes and small nations, each with their own unique history and tradition. I imagine the singers the same way. When BAM was imprisoned, the singers lost most of their sapience and free will (with the exception of the Listeners) and of course all their various cultures were lost. That was around 100 generations ago.
Suddenly, the Everstorm arrives and all the slaveform singers return to full personhood. They remember their lives as slaves, but obviously none of them can possibly know anything about whatever culture their ancestors had. As you say, the only culture they know is the one they were raised in - Alethi, Veden, Thaylen, etc. Their original culture, whatever it might have looked like, was stolen from them, and (like all of Sazed's religions) it's long gone. Of course they fall back on what they know, and of course they also resent it, and try to create new cultural traditions of their own. If it sounds familiar, I think it's by design.
We also know that there were humans who fought on Odium's side during the Desolations, as well as singers who fought on Honor's. And I'm willing to bet there were MANY, human and sInger, who didn't fight at all, and simply wished to be left alone. Again, everyone in the Cosmere, no matter race, is a person.
I suspect Connection plays a large role in it too. That was my impression ever since we saw how differently the different singers acted after they were restored by the Everstorm. Since their souls were missing such a large piece, the Everstorm connected them to the land they were born to. Kind of like certain language abilities that Dalinar could do, but much more powerful.
7 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:There is no doubt that said cracks are already there. But any argument that assumes single, simple "human" and "singer" interests is missing the essential point. There is no group identity, on individual people, trying their best. There will be people (of all races, human, singer and spren) who are angry and want to fight; there will be people (of all races) who want to work together, and there will be people who want to be left alone. It will indeed be a chaotic mix, expected on a large post-war multiethnic continent. Nothing on the Cosmere is as simple as we might wish it to be.
True, and that was foolish of me to simplify it like that. What I meant was, there would be cracks that any who oppose Retribution can exploit.
8 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:True, but again keep in mind: not ALL singers, and not even all Fused.
I expect that when the Stormlight Archives resumes, well see some nations of primarily singers, some primarily human, and some mixed, with all the complicated racism and patriotism one can imagine. Some will get along happily, some grudgingly, and some will fight.
That's kind of what I mean. So many will want to take different roads that it's going to lead to conflict. With both fuzed and regular singers. Without someone powerful to unify the singers, things are going to get messy, which will cause real problems for Taravangian when he eventually returns.
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With the Storm Father gone, I strongly suspect that Syl will be his eventual replacement. But I suspect that won't happen anytime soon. Sounds like the sort of change that would happen in Book 10.
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Something I've wondered about is what the singers will do during the time skip. Something that Sanderson has been pretty good about is turning expectations against his readers, such as assuming that all members of groups are united in one way or another. A good example of this is when Adolin is talking to Peak spren on his journey to Lasting Integrity and finds out they have different nationalities. And those nationalities don't seem to think too highly of each other.
Which makes me think that things might get a little chaotic for the Singer nations going forward. The main thing that united them for the past several thousand years was common cause. Namely, defeating the humans and followers of Honor. Not only is that gone, but the deity that they followed and kept them together is gone as well. And who know when he's coming back.
Combine that with the fact that their world has now changed completely with the Ever Storm and the singers might not be so happy about the world they ended up with. The singers are not above abusing their fellows for one reason or another. After Kaladin spent time with newly awakened singers, Sah and his fellows were basically enslaved. They even complained that they went from being abused by humans to being abused by their own people. And they were not happy about it.
Sure, the Fuzed are still around, but they create their own wrinkle. Most of them want to be done with the conflict. Rabonial wanted anti light partially to help end Fuzed suffering. One of the Fuzed told Venli in Oathbringer that the Fuzed would be able to rest after they won back Roshar. They've basically done that. If Taravangian doesn't let them pass on, then they might start to decide they don't want to follow him anymore. Leshwi proves it's possible even for Fuzed to defect.
What do I think that means? Well, as was pointed out during the meeting between the Mink, Dalinar, Jasnah, and Navani, Altehkar's unification didn't last a decade after Gavilar's death. Dalinar even points out in TWoK that the most delicate point in any nation's founding is immediately after the death of its founder. If that founder is Odium, while he may not be dead, he isn't on the planet anymore, which is pretty much as good as being dead as far as the people of Roshar are concerned. At least for now. And in that situation, considering the singers adopted much of their personalities from the human nations they come from and how those nations weren't all friendly, I think conflict between Singer nations is extremely likely.
Rayse and Taravangian were planning on being there on Roshar to be able to build up militaries to send them off world for his eventual conquest of the cosmere. But since Retribution had to flee, he basically had to leave his followers behind to fend for themselves. If Hoid is correct, and Taravangian doesn't pay as much attention to Roshar as he should while he's gone, then I'd wager that large cracks will start to appear in the Singer nations. Cracks that the humans will be able to exploit in a counterattack.
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48 minutes ago, AlmightyGir said:
Can a cognitive shadow even hold a shard fully?
I've wondered about that too. At this point, Kelsier is almost identical to a spren, which means he's nearly pure investiture. I kept wondering how Ba-Ado-Mishram could take up the shard when she's effectively the same.
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7 hours ago, AlmightyGir said:
Just a point of order, and I might be incorrect here...
But while Vin takes up the Power at the end of Well of Ascension, she does so in the same way Rashek does. This makes her a sliver at the time, rather than a shardbearer. Leras is still the shardbearer at the time, his death and Vin's true ascension don't occur until later on.
While it is certainly noble of her to give up the power she held, it's distinctly different from giving up the full power of a shard.
That said, I also think Wit is referring to Vin.Wit specifically says it wasn't a full ascension, which strongly points to Vin. We don't know for certain that he even knows about Kelsier holding the power of Preservation in-between Leras and Vin. But assuming he does know, since the power hadn't truly chosen Kelsier, it probably was easier for Kelsier to let go of it. That being said, it was still one of the more noble things Kelsier ever did.
On 12/11/2024 at 1:07 AM, Oltux72 said:Or in his oppinion Kelsier could not have held onto Preservation anyway, so his decision affected only the timing.
I've wondered that too. Could that orb have allowed Kelsier to hold the power indefinitely? I'd wager not. At least, not unless the person were already aligned with the power, which Kelsier wasn't.
On 12/10/2024 at 10:28 AM, Argenti said:What he was talking about was when Vin took up the well of ascension, then let the power go. Releasing ruin was the wrong choice.
Agreed.
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18 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:
I too would not be shocked to see Bavadin slip an avatar onto Roshar ASAP.....and given her trend of impersonating (or inspiring) figures from other religions, imagine if she tried to take advantage of the nature of the Oathpact and have an avatar impersonate a Herald while they're stuck on Braize. And
due to Taravangian's inability to find the Heralds' minds this time, I could see Autonomy deliberately trying to play both sides against each other, maybe trying to get Taravangian to believe her faux Herald avatar's actions are his Herald enemies and planning for that accordingly, thus keeping him and the Heralds focused on their conflict with each other while she further entrenches herself in Rosharan matters.
OR for that matter....due to how the Heralds are hidden, likely even other Shards aren't able to totally pin them down, not just Retribution....meaning until their next Return, Kaladin's current status could be a COMPLETE cosmere-wide wildcard that nobody is actually prepared for. Like people with enough knowledge of the relevant mechanics might GUESS that for the Oathpact to be holding there has to be a tenth member of the reforged circle and nine wouldn't cut it, and Kaladin IS the most likely prospect, but that's not the same thing as knowing for sure. I'm just saying, given the mythical aspect Kaladin's reputation has taken on over the past five books, I'm amused by the thought that the recently deceased Kaladin might appear to Autonomy as the perfect figure to impersonate and claim as having elevated to some sort of spiritual/semi-divine status, leading her to create an Avatar in his image.....
And then cue the Return and Real!Kaladin shows up and he's like.....THAT DOESN'T EVEN LOOK LIKE ME. Is that what people think I look like?! The other Heralds, well used to their appearances being morphed over time in artistic depictions: Yeah that's rough buddy.
I agree, it would make perfect sense for Autonomy to do something like that. It might be something she's already done. But I wonder what religious figure she would use. On Skadriel she used one of the religions Preservation used to convey star maps down to Sazed for when he took up the powers to become Harmony. And there's a theory going around that Jaddeth on Sel is another of Autonomy's planted figures, one that I think is highly likely.
Honestly, I'd expected the shard of Odium to be defeated in book five with other shards being the problems going forward. Autonomy in particular would be a great villain, considering how she's operated so far.
But I've had some time to think over what Taravangium (or whatever we're storming calling it) and I suspect it will function similar to Raysium, but instead of simply transporting investiture along the metal, it will somehow absorb investiture. Taravangian is so power hungry that this what he would want in a diving metal.
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1 hour ago, Steel Speedster said:
I actually found a WoB that suggests that Retribution would still be capable of producing raysium.
If Sazen could still create Lerasium and Atium, then yeah, Taravangian can still create Raysium. What interests me is what Taravangium would do.
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On 1/8/2025 at 1:21 PM, rabidhexley said:
Pretty much. I actually think the deconstruction of Jasnah's moral character was a good move, but it should have served as the means to break her down before playing on Fen's fears. It shouldn't have swung the debate because it was a losing argument, Jasnah is obviously more trustworthy than Taravangian, contract or not. There are few people that can less trustworthy than Taravangian, and it seems plainly obvious that a being of his capability could find a means of making Fen regret whatever terms they came to.
What breaking down Jasnah's moral framework does do is draw into question her unassailable competence, as so much of her image is based on the impression of having a supernatural level of raw capability and eternal rightness. This opens Fen up to doubting that her allies are really on the right track, if they can really stand up against something like Odium, that their path is really the right one given their situation. Allowing Fen to then fall to arguments playing on her fears, as Jasnah can no longer portray the image of an immovable bulwark.
"What is the right move Jasnah, do you even know?" feels like a stronger chink in the armor than "Yes, Jasnah totally would betray her allies in this situation even though that's inconsistent with what she's done thus far."
I think the main problem structurally is that Sanderson really wanted to end the chapter on Jasnah's darkest hour, as that was the most important moment for her character. But in doing so really made Fen look like a chump and a traitor.
I agree. That would have made far more sense, a much better way to approach it. I completely agree that Jasnah needed to hit her low point in this book. It was the best possible way for her story to progress. And frankly, even personally I feel like Jasnah could stand to learn some humility (much like Taravangian) but having her not know the right answer makes way more sense than to suggest she’d turn traitor. It’s totally inconsistent with her character.
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On 12/20/2024 at 3:37 AM, christianrapper said:
To me the debate was pointless. Todium gained absolutely nothing from the debate. He actually lost some things in the agreement. Taravangian admitted that he was just going to kill and replace her anyway if she didn’t agree to his demands at the end. I don’t get the purpose of it in the narrative except to have Jasnah do something.
He was trying to humble Jasnah, to teach her a lesson, as I think he phrased it in one of the interludes. Taravangian respects Jasnah, as his belief in his own superiority probably motivated him to try and prove he was better than her.
On 12/20/2024 at 6:21 AM, RedBlue said:This sounds great in a vacuum, but with Taravangian there to point out how dire Fen’s situation would be if she doesn’t cut a deal, it falls apart. And if Jasnah keeps repeating ‘you can’t trust Taravangian,’ it only highlights that she can’t actually counter his points.
The problem with that is that there is a valid argument to be made that Taravangian is untrustworthy, even bound by oaths as a shard. So literally everything he was saying was suspect. Sure, Jasnah couldn't just keep repeating that without looking weak, but Fen didn't know about the deepest ones, and the 'invading force' had been exposed as a likely ruse.
On 12/20/2024 at 6:21 AM, RedBlue said:I think what Taravangian gained was emotional leverage over Jasnah. By demonstrating that she ‘agrees’ with him, he’s showing her that their ways of thinking are very similar, and maybe planting the seed of the idea that joining him wouldn’t be so bad. This is something he can use to manipulate her at some later date.
Taravangian seems to value having an ‘in’ with Jasnah over having stronger control over Thaylenah. Given who Jasnah is, I don’t think that’s a bad call.
Unfortunately, this is true. I very much doubt that Taravangian cared about how he got Thaylena. What he really wanted to was get the better of Jasnah, and teach her a lesson. The upside of which is that this sets up a fantastic opportunity for her to turn the tables on him in the back half of the series either by proving Taravangian is a hypocrite, or by proving him wrong about her in some other way.
On 12/20/2024 at 7:06 AM, Forged Herald said:I disagree. She doesn't have to argue loyalty, she has to refuse to argue and just trust. I know it's antithetical to who she is, that's why she lost.
Agreed. My reaction to the debate challenge was that Jasnah should have just walked in, told Fen to do what she's gotta do and walked out.
On 12/25/2024 at 4:02 AM, christianrapper said:What was the point in Jasnah debating to begin with? Why not just take the win without debating?
He wanted to humble her, to prove he was better than her. The only thing bigger than Taravangian's ambitions is his ego.
On 12/25/2024 at 11:17 AM, MagicMaggot said:I think the logic behind Todium's motivation was alyso pretty clearly spelled out:
Yes, he could have gotten the kingdom without her. But this wasn't about winning the prize, this was about people he respected granting him the victory of being right.
I don't see a problem with the debate from his perspective.
Exactly. If he merged with the shard of Ambition instead of Honor, he'd have been Arrogance.
On 1/2/2025 at 2:08 AM, Raven Wilder said:The debate happens because both Jasnah and Taravangian are driven by pride. While Taravangian could seize Thaylen City by force, they're willing to give up a fair amount just to hear an enemy admit "You were right." And while Jasnah could simply have ignored Odium's request for a debate (as Fen wanted to), it's in Jasnah's nature to view such a challenge as something you must rise to - even admits to themself during the debate that it's exhilarating to pit their skills against a god.
Sadly, that probably was part of her motivation.
On 1/2/2025 at 3:40 PM, JohnnyKaizen said:I actually put the book down for the day after reading the debate. Not because I thought it was poorly written, but because Taravangian was already known to be a liar and a betrayer who will throw anybody under the bus if he thinks it will serve him, and then label that bus the "Greater Good Express." And I don't care who good a deal is, you don't deal with a dirty dealer. And nobody is as dirty as !@#$% Taravangian.
Also, Odium went out of his way to dig up "secrets" with his god-powers and this was the part that annoyed me, per Jasnah and her character. Jasnah didn't point out or ask for any dirt on Taravangian..since he'd moved directly to character assassination. Even so, Jasnah will learn from this and be a better person in 6-10.
Also, I hope Fen enjoys her perpetual night, and someone tells here It's Always Sunny in Azir.I was much the same. Fen's betrayal irked me so much I had trouble sleeping the night after I listened to it. Jasnah, Dalinar, Adolin, and the radiants fought to defend her city, against Alethi yes, but against people under Odium's influence. And she tossed them aside as soon as a more convenient option came along.
And I agree about not dealing with a dirty dealer. Especially when the deal is as 'good' as the one Taravangian was offering. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
On 1/2/2025 at 3:44 PM, CognitiveShadow said:Always sunny in Azir put me into a fit lol that’s amazing
But yeah I get it, I wouldn’t want to deal with Taravangian either. But I still think it was the correct and only good option for Fen to go with at that point. They were in checkmate, and TOdium won. The only other option was to refuse to give in and be killed anyway
She didn't know they were in checkmate with the deepest ones. That's what makes it galling. If he had threatened to have them assassinated or something, that would be different. But she gave in, not because of threats to her kingdom, but because it was more beneficial to betray her allies.
I figured from the start that his plan to take Thaylena involved someone already inside the city. I didn't guess an assassination was the plot, but I guessed that he had agents in Thaylen city as soon as they were talking about how nearly impregnable it was.
On 1/2/2025 at 6:18 PM, Asininity said:No, you recall it correctly.
If Jasnah deduced that before the debate, she would have an legit reason to participate.
Taravangian main goal was to humilate and hurt Jasnah, he had Thaylena already but was willing to pay more to do so.
Jasnah woke up and decided it was a good idea to have a verbal match with almost omniscient being. Smart.Exactly. The smart thing to do would be to evacuate the council and Fen to Uritheru, assuming they could be persuaded to do so.
On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:No she didn't know about the deepest ones that would have killed them, but it was clear that her options were:
1. Fight and maybe win, leaving her city damaged (again) and nation isolated and surrounded by enemies with no one to trade [fairly] with
2. Fight and likely lose, leaving her city damaged (again), herself likely killed, and Odium's forces in control establishing a new government that would likely result in continued bloodshed along the way
3. Surrender and take a deal with Odium which would guarantee the safety of her people and herself, and would likely allow her to negotiate some favorable terms that would give Thaylenah the opportunity to develop and grow into a superpower.
As far as they knew, however, the invading force about to attack Thaylen city was a distraction, not a military. Jasnah had already figured that out, which meant a straight up fight was one Thaylen city was likely to win. Taravangian had probably planned on the assassination from the start. Which meant that Fen had no reason to assume they were going to lose the city in a battle. As for trading, they still had the oath gates. Besides, it's still a bad reason to betray allies just to have more people to sell to, even if they are a country of merchants. And I still seriously doubt Taravangian won't try to find some way to wriggle out of the deal he made with Fen. He's too underhanded for me to believe anything else.
On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:Odium is a slimy loophole loving lunatic, but at least his being a shard means he would be bound to keep the agreements. Sure, he'll find some ways to undermine some of them, but not enough to do severe damage to the people. Odium had enough motivations to keep the city and nation intact and functioning at full force so long as they agreed to serve under his rule. In my mind it was a no brainer. And then you add in the deepest ones and it's even more obvious that there was no alternative.
Fen didn't know about the deepest ones. And Taravangian wasn't doing it to get Thaylena. If that was all he wanted, all he had to do was have the deepest ones attack, and that would be that. He did it to prove his superiority to Jasnah.
On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:Even before the deepest ones were mentioned, Jasnah herself had to admit that she would have done the same thing
People think that sort of thing all the time, but then find themselves unable to do it in the moment. Look at what happened with Renarin during the battle of Thalen field.
On 1/3/2025 at 3:07 PM, CognitiveShadow said:Odium wanted to take the city by negotiations instead of by forced bloodshed. It's much better to keep the current government in place than to have to kill off the ones who oppose you and then set up the new people from there. Sure, he could do it either way, but by going through this debate process he was able to break down Jasnah a little bit (and hopefully loosen her convictions enough to the point that eventually down the road she might work with him, which was clearly a goal of his here) and convince Fen to hand him control of the city without the annoying process of setting up new leadership and cutting down inssurections.
That's why he was willing to make the deal instead of just forcing the attacks with the deepest ones and ending it before it started.
I seriously doubt he actually cares about whether he takes territory by negotiation or marshal force. He says that he wants to make things peaceful, but that's nothing more than his justification. He wants power, and he'll do whatever it takes to get it. Negotiation skills, military size, it doesn't matter. It's all power to him. And it doesn't make sense for him to care about setting up a new government, since he already had people on the council that served him. New leadership would have been easy to establish.
On 1/3/2025 at 7:17 PM, JDM said:I'm with you. It was an incredibly painful outcome, because I really like Jasnah and seeing her lose someone that it really felt like she had won over at a personal level was rough. I'm hoping we see her build from it in the second arc.
One thing worth noting is that despite (because?) being humbled so badly, she made the right choice to get the Shattered Plains into the hands of the Listeners, who both deserved the legitimacy the treaty granted and are likely to play a huge role in finding a path where both peoples can find a path to peace. I don't think the book was super clear on exactly who had what input into the plan happening, but at bare minimum she signed off on it.
Unlike a lot of people, I really don't like the Jasnah of the first half of the series. I was put off by her ever since the 'lesson' she gave to Shallan. I never liked how ruthless she was, such as when she suggested killing the heralds to set up the oath pact prison again. And the fact that she seems to have regularly hired assassins. But I agree that the humility she's hopefully gained from this will help to make her a better person going forward.
1 hour ago, rabidhexley said:Just got to this discussion since the debate bothered me. My personal problem wasn't with Jasnah, who was defeated in the exact way that made sense for her character. My personal problem was with how the discussion framed Fen.
The debate framed Fen's point-of-view as a moral one, she trusted in her allies. Jasnah was already established as incredible pragmatic, Fen had already decided to side with Dalinar- the Blackthorn -and trusted that people could change. In the course of the entire conflict, Jasnah and Dalinar had indeed proved to be trustworthy allies. They opened with the pragmatic arguments, and Fen shot them down.
I do think that flipping Fen could have made sense. But given her character in made more sense to play on her fears for her people, building them up to a breaking point where she saw no other way out, backing her into a corner. But those arguments were downplayed in favor of the points about utilitarianism. I know the sequence was more about Jasnah, but the way Fen was swayed just made her seem dumb and inconsistent.
So it felt very incongruous for the debate to seemingly pivot on questions of Jasnah's moral character. From Fen's POV, Jasnah has questionable moral character....and? Fen has already decided to side with the Blackthorn, and they have done nothing to earn her distrust. Regardless of Jasnah's mixed words, the things she has actually done, pushing for equality, freeing slaves, using the Oathgates to assist their allies economically, putting herself in personal danger in defense of Theylenah, she was established as trustworthy.
Except Jasnah literally wouldn't, because she has already had the opportunity to do so multiple times. And Fen should be aware of this. Alethkar has literally the most skin in the game of the entire coalition, and the most to gain in siding with Odium. (this was the one point in the debate where I had a problem with Jasnah's character, she should have known this point, she and Alethkar have sacrificed a great deal in the name of opposing Odium.)
Even the question about Dalinar's contract with Odium doesn't hold water. I mean obviously he singled out Alethkar, it was literally in enemy hands and he was trying to free his people. If they were truly self-serving, Jasnah and Dalinar had literally every opportunity to sell their allies out to Odium. If they were self-serving why would they choose to continue opposing Odium at every turn, they could have just negotiated for their own safety and called it a day.
Arguably Alethkar above all others got the first seat at the table in terms of having a chance to sell out the other kingdoms for their own safety, while continuously sacrificing the safety of their own people in the name of continuing to oppose him. With their own ruling family constantly putting themselves on the front-lines in battles in defense of ally territory at the expense of defending their own.
The only reason Fen is getting an opportunity to negotiate to betray her allies at all is because Jasnah specifically rules one of the only kingdoms Odium absolutely knows won't turn against their allies.
While Taravangian is conniving, a traitor, and could easily be described as unapologetically evil, he killed thousands, betrayed them, and argues from the perspective of being in the right for doing so. And... Odium is the literal God of hate. And has established that he plans on bringing war to the entire universe. Regardless of whatever contract they hash out, Fen is putting herself and future of her people into the hands of the established antithesis to morality. It makes no sense for any question of Jasnah's moral character to win out against the simple facts on display.
So in the making of that argument, it feels pretty weird for Fen to then literally commit the ultimate betrayal to her allies who bled and fought by her side. If she fell to fear it would have made more sense to me, not to the idea that her allies aren't trustworthy.
Could not agree more. That's the main reason why the debate bothers me so much. The radiants had saved Thaylena before, but Fen turned her back on them the moment a better option came along. Fen had been built up nicely as a strong ally, since she had doubted Dalinar so much in Oathbringer but had then supported the coalition so strongly. For her to turn traitor like that is frustrating, no matter what Jasnah had done. I don't like Jasnah, and I don't like that she investigated her allies, but on the other hand, you don't work with people you don't know. And Jasnah probably would have been able to see the holes in Taravangian's arguments if he hadn't spent most of the time attacking Jasnah's character.
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It's one of three things, if I had to guess. It's either some sort of remnant of Nohadon's spirit, kind of like a ghost, or Adolnasium, or some combination of the two
I'm honestly not sure which I'd rather it be. Nohadon had the connection to Dalinar through The Way of Kings, but considering how he managed to intervene between Dalinar and Taravangian during the contest, that seems like a lot more than such a remnant should be capable of.
I would have thought it was just Adolnasium, using Nohadon as a figure Dalinar would trust, but that doesn't quite fit either. This is definitely the same being that Dalinar spoke to in Oathbringer, and that one spoke as the person who had lived Nohadon's life. He specifically said that he tried and failed to conquer the world, which led him down a different path.
So I'm left to conclude that it was some combination of Nohadon and Adolnasium. Perhaps it was Adolnasium that pulled Dalinar into the vision and Nohadon that did the talking? I'm not sure. But I'd be willing to wager that we'll see something similar happen to other characters in the future. Perhaps one of Dalinar's sons will need his guidance in a moment of internal conflict.
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2 hours ago, Isilel said:
which poses the question about how and why the respective Radiant Order was able to use stormlight at all.
I'm guessing it was a mis-wording. I think Sanderson has said that all non-void spren are a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. It just means that honor spren are almost entirely of Honor and cultivation spren are almost entirely of Cultivation. Which seems perfectly reasonable.
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6 hours ago, DSCrankshaw said:
Not to mention this:
(emphasis added)
That was when I knew for sure that 12124 was Aux. the fact that he using the word squire made me suspicious, but that word confirmed it.
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13 minutes ago, BridgeBoi said:
Happy New Year, y'all!
Thinking about the contest of champions, why didn't Dalinar, after ascending to honor just wait? I mean the type of contest was never specified. I'm fairly certain there's nothing compelling Dalinar to kill Gavilar.
The alternative plan would be for Dalinar to move away from the contest. He doesn't attack Odium and doesn't kill Gavinor. Instead he waits for Gavinor to die of old age. Once Gavinor is dead, team radiant is in control of Alethkar. From there, Dalinar can teach the shard of honor what true honor is. He could also go to the other shards and tell them that Odium's vessel has changed and Todium is extremely dangerous. This would result in a stalemate. In a thousand years, when Odium returned, Dalinar would have the true shard of honor, and exprienced radiants plus maybe help from other shards.
The two main objections to waiting are that by withdrawing Dalinar forfeits and that the shard wasn't ready. Waiting for the proper moment is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare.
Second, Which situation is better for the shard? having a mentor (or therapist
) who knows what true honor is or having a power-hungry monster to control you?
Ultimately, I understand why Dalinar made this choice from a storytelling perspective, but I think that its a pretty rash and inconcieved idea that opens up a lot of risk.
I had a similar thought, and wondered if something like drawing out the time of the contest might be something Taravangian might try to win. But the problem with Dalinar trying to get the other shards to help is that he had seen Tanavast trying to do that exact same thing before, and they didn't help. That would achieve nothing but delaying the problem. Again.
Dalinar is a first rate general, and if his son is a good Towers player, you can bet Dalinar is too. He almost certainly knew about the kind of situation that May and Adolin showed Yanagon. That's what that entire scene was meant to show. That sometimes the worst position to be in is the one with the most power. Dalinar guessed, correctly, that Taravangian wouldn't be able to resist taking up Honor's power and that once he did, the other shards wouldn't ignore him anymore.
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Wild idea. Maybe Sazed become Discord, but that ends up causing the shards of Honor and Odium to fight against themselves, destroying Taravangian in the process.
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2 hours ago, Lord Spirit said:
I could be wrong, but the way I see it, vin killed ati, whereas honor was trying to destroy the shard of odium. The vessel is far less durable than the shard, so there was less destruction.
It does seem odd to me though, because Nohadon’s line heavily implies that Honor didn’t care about preserving Roshar when fighting Odium, which he clearly does. Tanavast dies trying to make peace. The only thing I could think is that his desire to protect didn’t align with Honor’s intent enough to save Roshar.
It's the intent of the shard that matters, not the vessel, when it comes to protecting. Dalinar cared about protecting Roshar, but the shard of Honor didn't. That's why the shattered plains were so messed up after Tanavast and Rayse fought there. The shard of Preservation cared about protecting the people of Skadriel, not just Vin. And if I'm right and such clashes have happened before, then the shard of Devotion likely cared enough to prevent such destruction too.
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) who knows what true honor is or having a power-hungry monster to control you?
Too Much Honor
in Cosmere Discussion
Posted
I remember in Oathbringer that Jasnah commented about how during the battle of Thaylen field she was holding more stormlight than she ever had before. She said something about how the human body wasn't meant to hold that much. It might be something similar.