JohnnyKaizen

16 hours ago, alder24 said:

Ishar is creating visions just like Dalinar had and those happen in the Spiritual Realm, which is spaceless and time independent. Dalinar was warned by Hoid that while years or even decades might pass on Roshar, he might feel like only hours passed in those visions in SR. Time there flows differently than in the Physical Realm.

As for why they want to experience as little time as possible, it's because they are still not healed, they can't be fully healed because their status as a Cognitive Shadow makes their condition worse the longer they live. A human soul, even if made immortal, isn't capable of existing for thousands of years, it wears down and this takes a toll on Heralds. Additionally, their minds also aren't capable of remembering all of what they lived through (as Hoid explained in ch 14). The more they have to remember, the more they forget, causing their minds to deteriorate further. For Heralds it is actually beneficial to live in a faster time frame.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Why or how are the Heralds the only ones we've seen so far that are affected by magical maladies due to either their high Investiture or long lives?

Brandon Sanderson

I would argue the Fused are having the same situation, so they're not the only ones. The why and how... there's a whole host of things going on here. Like a lot of physical and mental illness, it's not one thing or the other. But it is a compound of other things.

One is going so long without certain protections that you kind of need to take. The human being's soul might be immortal, depending on your argument in the cosmere. (That's really up to you.) But they certainly aren't meant for thousands of years of existence, the same way that our bodies aren't. There's some of that.

There's some of the things they've been through. Like, legit trauma; this is not all simply a magical ailment. You've got people with PTSD, layers of PTSD on top of layers of PTSD, for thousands of years, bearing things that no human being without their level of Investiture would even be able to bear. You've got that manifestation, you've got their own sense of guilt.

And these things are all just kind of overlapping together with the fact they've been alive for so, so very long. And a lot of the people that you've seen otherwise have not been alive nearly... orders of magnitude more for the Heralds. The only people you've seen that are that old are: some of the dragons, Hoid, and Vessels of various Shards. And you're basically at that group. And this is a group who knows what they're doing. Either they were built like the dragons, this is part of their innate nature, that they are functionally immortal. Or you are getting the Shards. Or you're getting people that are 300 years old, which is a very different thing, cosmere-wise, than having lived for thousands and thousands of years, part of it being torture.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

But in Gav's case, it was the other way around. Though for that, there was the direct meddling of a Shard involved. So I don't know that that's actually a valid point, beyond the fact that they could be experiencing super slow time, but probably aren't based on what I've read above.

35 minutes ago, Spotblur said:

I'm so fascinated by the discussion here. People here debating how humanoid something needs to be to be date-able, meanwhile I'm enjoying Children of Time romance fanfic (I love Brandon Sanderson's books, but if you want to see really alien creatures that still have just enough humanity to be compatible communication-wise with us, I reccomend the Children of Time trilogy).

 

My rule is the Harkness Test, personally. If it passes and consents, hell yeah. If it doesn't pass or doesn't consent, hell no.

I've somehow never heard of the Harkness Test before today (Fun fact, Cap'n Jack was named after Marvel character, Agatha Harkness, and I am confident that she uses the same rules lol) I love me some Cap'n Jack. I'd also love to see any sort of a crossover where Jack and Agatha run into each other because that would be hilarious.

On 3/1/2025 at 10:07 PM, Terrisman said:

Thanks. It doesn’t really explain why he couldn’t see though even if he couldn’t influence people

There is precedence for a high investiture being, not being able to see past certain objects in Mistborn:

On 3/1/2025 at 10:28 AM, Qianweilian said:

It could be something to do with humanity. We have change, exist, maybe something to do with emotions and some other dawnshard.

You know, I'm starting to think Experience might be it.

12 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

So on one hand - the Dawnshards being something that you need to need to put together to Create, like how Ruin and Preservation could only create together, is interesting... but also the 4-shard theories and Invention/Virtuosity make me think that Create could be a Dawnshard in and of itself.

Same. So what would be a command higher than, or more complete than, Create? That’s what’s got me stumped atm.

In WaT, we get the scene where Wit and Rysn end up in the same room together, and the Dawnshards want to slam together violently (which we then get some description of how "pink mist" is incoming) and Wit/Hoid (doing what I think it the coolest single thing I've seen him do to date) commands the Dawnshards "No." and the stop and he leaves.

At the time, I focused on the novelty of the meeting, of what almost happened, what the meeting might mean for Rysn and Wit/Hoid in the coming Eras, but what I didn't think of was, what would the two Dawnshards become if they had merged? We've seen Sazed take on the name of Harmony and Taravangian take on the name Retribution. Would the two separate Dawnshards merge and similarly take on a new command derived from the two? And if so..what is all 4 of them combined? What is the command of Creation?

2 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

Autonomy. It's arguably already doing that

It is? Because of all the avatars? Am I missing something else? I would be excited if that's the case, but I hadn't thought that was happening.

6 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Follow up question - which will be the first of the original 16 shards to get split into two different ones??

I would assume, based on the info we have, that doing so would require one or more (possibly all 4) Dawnshards. If it can be accomplished with less than 4 (most conveniently 1, even if that meant the "right" 1) then clearly not Harmony or Retribution. There are several Shards in hiding. There are those that have been "destroyed" and (probably) not sapient enough to do anything about it, and there's Shards with Vessels, and I can't think of any that wouldn't have "Don't get re-shattered" way up high on their priorities list.

So of those, I guess Devotion, Dominion, and Ambition as the most possible atm. And if any of the others are in such a state that someone, or a group of someones, could take a Dawnshard (or all of them) to do the deed, then they'd be on that list too.

7 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It was basically stated that way by Navani in WoR: 

  Reveal hidden contents

WoR Ch 67:

 

Ahhh, I vaguely was remembering that, but now that I've read the quote, I was focusing on the wrong parts of that passage at the time and I suppose. 

20 hours ago, Quantus said:

Logically, there are several possibilities

• They couldnt see it coming the same way Odium cant see Renarin coming, some Power (Dawnshard or otherwise) obscured everyone's ability to foresee the events
• They Saw it coming but failed to stop it through hubris or inattention or some personality failing.
  • Or through no failing and the Godkillers as a team were just that clever
• They wanted to stop it but decided the consequences of Overt divine resistance would be worse, catastrophic consequences of breaking fundamental rules of Reality or some such.
• They didnt want it to happen but saw Far Enough, all the way to the end of the whole Cosmere Saga (era 4 ending, etc) and decided the eventual outcome of the Shattering would be the Better End.
• They just Wanted to Stop being the Big A of the Cosmere, so they allowed it to happen.
  • They then went to the Beyond
  • They then retired to some corner of the cosmere as a former-god Sliver, absent the Power.  

All definitely possible. If I had to pick one of those, it would be entirely on feel and it would be "They didnt want it to happen but saw Far Enough, all the way to the end of the whole Cosmere Saga (era 4 ending, etc) and decided the eventual outcome of the Shattering would be the Better End." I would like to think that Ado consented in the Shattering for a good reason. It's possible that's not at all the case, but I'd like to think it was until proven otherwise. 

18 hours ago, Argenti said:

I personally think Ado is the power, that the aspects of the shard are just his personality. 

That feels right to me.

19 hours ago, Treamayne said:

The Gemstone stays with the blade when dismissed because the Bonding Process makes it part of both the Wielder and the Blade (as the Connection between them) and that bond is only restoring a nomal function of a Living Shardblade. The Spiritual nature of a Deadeye wants to be Dismissed and Summoned as it did when alive - so them Polestone is more readily incorporated because it's a (very small) type of Healing for the Deadeye. 

Not super important, but with the WoB you shared and this...that would mean that after the Recreance, people would have been trying to find ways to decorate the Shardblades they ended up with, because they would have known that they could be different colors, shapes, textures, etc. I like to imagine a lot of failed attempts until somebody somewhere put a gemstone on it and inadvertently figured out how to bond the dead blade. I probably should have realized that a long time ago, but I didn't and it's cool to have a more fleshed out understanding of how that went down. 

4 minutes ago, DoctaDajman said:

I would also be curious if a twinborn could push and pull on their own metalminds easier than metal invested with other investiture. 

That is a big question I have here. 

At one point I thought that adding some sort of metal along the blade (like a clamp to act as an anchor) would allow more control over pushes and pulls... which it probably would. 

But... as a blade fuzzes what would happen when the clamp hits the target?  Would the clamp be a hard stop on that blades momentum and ability to be pushed?  

Maybe the best spots to put anchors are in the handle... or even a larger counter weighted handel that clamps over the handle with different pushing points. 

Knowing that steel and iron sight can differentiate between metal types you could place a totally different metal type at the very bottom of the handle and pull specifically on that so that the blade comes back to you hilt first every time... which would be so cinematic. 

Furthering that line of thought, if you mount steel and iron onto a blade, does that become part of the blade? You've talked about removing and reapplying the metal, but could the metal be summoned and dismissed along with the blade?

If it can, I really hope the spren show back up in the Cr with some eyebrows, ears, lips pierced. Get some tougher looking spren in the CR  <--That's mostly a joke.

29 minutes ago, Lord Spirit said:

There were powers in the Cosmere other than Adonalsium, like the Aethers, so maybe he couldn't see them.

Also Adonasium wasn't necessarily a sentient being. For all we know, the shatterers used the dawnshards like a shard blade to cut up some super metal into 16 peices and gained immense power from them.

I feel like I just recently read a WoB where he talked specifically about Adonalsium "having personality" and that's why the Shards split into what they did. Now, personality doesn't necessarily mean personhood, as Brandon does love to be sneaky with vocabulary and definitions from time to time...but...as of now, I am operating under the assumption that Ado did have full personhood to go along with those traits of personality. I don't know if they had a vessel or if they were sapient investiture (which I hope was the case, as it would be less murder-y) but the farther into the Cosmere we go, the more I think Ado was a person. If for no other reason than how much the Shards themselves long for a vessel..and in the absence of one..become their own.

18 minutes ago, Entr0pic said:

Maybe it has something to do with the power of a Dawnshard we haven’t seen yet, or the power of combined dawnshards?

I had thought that Ado made the Dawnshards, but now that I think about it, I'm not actually sure about that.

13 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

On second thought... the gemstone in the hilt of a shardblade is able to stay connected to the blade when summoned and let go of. What mechanics work that and would they remain the same if you were to set in some metal studs or something?  

The theme of today seems to be simple concepts I've never really thought about. How does a gemstone disappear and reappear with a deadeye blade? Where does the gemstone go? Is there a representation of it in the CR? What exactly are gemstones that they can do that, because iirc, they often are dun when summoned or dismissed?

Before the Shattering, presumably Adonalsium had the best, most accurate access to Fortune of anyone..considering the Shards all have varying levels of access to it, it's logical that Ado is the reason for that. It probably can't be supposed that Ado was the only being with access to it, but I cannot come up with any reason why they wouldn't be able to see the future the most accurately of any other being in the Cosmere pre-Shattering.

So that said, Adonalsium would have seen the plot leading to the Shattering, and...let it happen?

They decided that, for some reason, the next 10,000+ years would be..what..just fine with the Shards (the beings that would assualt and split them and then take Ado's place) would do a bang up job running things?

This is a pretty simple concept, but one that I never actually dwelt on, and now my brain is struggling to adjust to the ramifications of Ado knowing of their demise, probably centuries or even millennia before hand. Not the least of which is, what plan(s) did Ado lay down long before the Shattering. Would that have anything to do with a planet like Roshar, having the spren that remained after the Shattering?

Thoughts?

On 2/18/2025 at 11:16 PM, Argenti said:

Eh, Not really. Aristotle is kinda wrong for that anyway, there are plenty of illogical laws. I expect Reason to be kinda Machiavellian; who cares about oaths or emotions? Only results matter. 

Yeah, I've long assumed that Reason would be like Vulcan logic, but actually divorced from emotion (as Vulcan's definitely have their own issues). I would think that Reason's Intent would lead to a vessel who makes decisions robotically, without any regard to factors not deemed reasonable, or logical. I'm not in a hurry to meet Reason.

If Tarvangian keeps going on the line of thinking that he was at the end of WaT, I'd assume he'd want Dominion, and possibly others. He could jump to 4+ Shards if he thinks that it will help him "save them all."

On 2/14/2025 at 11:17 PM, Roscoe said:

so this couldn't simply make him a Bondsmith, right? 

As if Bondsmiths aren't anything but simple.

Also, I for one, am extremely interested in what resonance effects will occur with someone who is both a Windrunner and a Bondsmith.

Kaladin and Syl have one of the closest, most loving relationships or any two people on Roshar. There is no need for them to develop a sexual and/or romantic relationship. Could they? Yes, it's fiction and all things are possible. For folks who feel romantic feelings (however strongly) it probably feels like it's an obvious and foregone conclusion that two people who love and trust each other so much, would fall for each other romantically and/or sexually.

However for a lot of people, that really isn't the case. If you want to see Kaladin and Syl in a romantic/sexual relationship, ok. Then you want that. It doesn't have to, or need to happen, but it may feel that way to you. I'm simply asking folks to recognize the "why" of feeling like a relationship "has to" or "need to" or "almost certianly will" happen. Because the whys are deeply rooted in your own personal experience, as they are informed by the culture around you.

Based on various WoB, Kaladin has experienced romantic feelings, but also hasn't been "ready" for them. I don't see anywhere that Brandon explains what that means. Knowing what I know of the way Brandon writes, and what I know of Kaladin, I'd say that (at the very least) there is a LOT of trauma that he's still not processed through from childhood, right up to WaT. Trauma changes all kinds of things about us, and it has most certainly changed all kinds of things about Kaladin. He processed some specific traumas, but that man is a mountain of pain and clearly has all kinds of issues. Could his relationships change as he processes through traumas? Yes. Could they stay the same? Also yes. He's not been exactly open with why things have gone south in his relationships, and also, the limited bits that have been canonized seem to fit somewhere within the aromantic area of things. In that, the words he's used match the lived experiences of many folks who are in one way (or ways) or another, aromantic.

My point being, it can be either/or (up until Brandon canonizes it), and to tell someone else who says "Hey, this is who I am and how I feel, and Kaladin sounds a lot like me and my experiences" that they are wrong because who you are and how you feel, makes you right...is wild, to say the least. Brandon has made it clear on the page and in person, that he is absolutely writing the life journeys of these characters. Many people on earth wonder about things in their life for years, even decades, until they come to understand some fundamental truths about themselves. Kaladin, in regards to his relationships, could end up being one of those people.

Could Kaladin come back from the SR having understood about himself that the best relationships for him are deeply loving, platonic ones? Yeah, of course he could. Could he come back, head over heels in romantic love with Syl? Yeah, he could do that too. Could he come back having made no progression in any manner concerning his relationship with Syl? Yeppo.

All of these scenarios are possible, and while I understand the urge to debate how likely any of these are (or other scenarios I haven't mentioned) what I am trying to stress is that someone's feelings about Kaladin aren't invalid, less than, or wrong simply because you feel differently. And when the topics that are under discussion are touching on the deepest, most intimate parts of ourselves...it is best to step back and realize that there are multiple right answers here. Brandon is constantly making decisions about where these characters are going, and what their journeys are..where Kaladin is going specifically. He listens to a whole host of different people's input about what feels right to them about Kaladin. Some of those people almost certainly agree with viewpoints expressed here, and some of those people almost certainly disagree. And then Brandon has to make a decision, as he is essentially the God Beyond of the Cosmere. 

My whole point (which I feel like I've come to repeat over and over) is that when we are talking about topics in Cosmere character's lives, that are also the lived experiences of the people here, tread with empathy, care, and respect. You might not mean to tell another person that who they are is "less than" but I see it happen on this site far to often. And most of the time, it is simply because folks fail to step back and think, "If I had a life the way this other human being is describing to me about themselves, how would I feel about this?" All too often, folks jump straight to the way they live/see the world and trample over other folks in a way that can (and too often does) cause harm.

On 2/14/2025 at 9:28 PM, Treamayne said:

Just please remember that a lack of romance is only a problem if the person feels a need for it, but has not fulfilled that need. Not everybody needs romance in their life.

Exactly.

And if you took romance out and left a ____________, that statement is not only still true, but pretty much the best way to read the Cosmere, and/or view the world around us.

Thanks for that, @Treamayne 

3 minutes ago, Deejaypenguin said:

I don't believe the Heralds spren are in the SR with them.

They are there. Kalak describes seeing Nale's Highspren and Syl when he wakes up on SR version of Alaswha. 

Also, I get that Kaladin is immortal now, but the Heralds have all been immortal for 7,000 years and that's been "too long" for their minds to take. That's why I'm asking what others think about being pure investiture...might that help them. I feel like it's probably pure speculation at this point, but you did hit on the thought I had, which was that Hoid has used Breath to store memory. But, even if there is a benefit to them in the SR, I am wondering if that would be a problem coming out of it and back to the PR.

Retribution rises. Now comes Recompense. Or Revenge comes now, rises Retribution.

I just had a thought. The Heralds and their spren are in the SR, and time is all wibbly wobbly there compared to the PR. So, even if the Heralds return in 10 years or less Rosharan time...would it make sense that Kaladin and Company can come back centuries or millennia older? 

Secondary question..if they do (from their perspectives) stay in the SR for 100s or 1000s of years, should it be any easier for a mortal mind to handle that amount of time in the SR?

Thoughts?

8 minutes ago, Returned said:

Taravangian seems to always have had a reputation for, let's say, unremarkable intelligence.

Its true that he has, but Dalinar, Navani, and Galivar all have moments of "O wow! This dude is crafty and not at all what I have heard." It seems that Brandon was implying heavily that Taravangian played up those rumors that had persisted from his youth, to his advantage, while simultaneously obsessively going back over the doctors words over and over for decades.

 

10 minutes ago, Returned said:

In the meantime, are there any moments that stood out for you as being particularly good displays of Taravangian's pre-ascension spitefulness?

Like I said above, the meeting with the dying King of Jah Keved is one of the few times we see Taravangian...I won't say not pretending, because he insisted on pretending even when alone with a man who was about to die...if not being spiteful, then at the very least petty and really gloating. 

Another great example for me is the fact that he put his granddaughter, and all the servants attending her, at risk just to watch Jasnah soulcast. He suspected that she was a surgebinder, and only trusted a display he witnessed, to judge for himself. Honestly, the more I think about this, the more I feel it's more extreme narcissism, egotism, and hypocrisy than spitefulness. Or maybe it's just the the former is so much greater than the later, that it feels less significant in comparison?

I also realize that I need to pay more attention to him on my next re-read and probably take notes on him to help form a more complete picture of him, for myself.

35 minutes ago, Returned said:

Little to no gloating that I perceived, no malice or spite, just commitment to the plan, as always

Except that no matter the form, "the plan" invariably is "Be king of everyone and everything, because I am the goat, and everyone else is stupid and less than me." I think the more I'm sitting and really thinking about him, the more I balk at his limitless disdain for everyone else in the Cosmere.  He has always (at least for the 6ish years worth of time we've seen him in) completely believed that he's the only person who is qualified to save humanity. Even when viable alternatives presented themselves during his mortality, and now in godhood, he could literally end war, conflict, and suffering across the Cosmere, but he won't do it. He'll only "end" those things, when he is in charge of all of it, and not a moment sooner. Still, I will pay extra close attention to to him on my next read through, and I'll see how that shapes and/or changes my thoughts on him.

42 minutes ago, Returned said:

It's on record in a WoB that Rayse was not controlling Odium very well by the end. Will Taravangian be worse than Rayse in this way? And whatever the answer to that question, do we think that he has any particular ability to resist the influence of the Shards on his mind? Maybe the time scale remaining in this plot line will just be too brief for those effects to have much impact.

Perhaps. Also, we have very little knowledge of what it's like to be a vessel and how they relate to the power. My statements were pretty much exclusively derived from Rayse and Tanavast's experiences. Taravangian started off his godhood as a convenient 2nd choice and has continued with that theme into his second ascension. It did take thousands of years for Odium and Honor to in ,small or large ways, reject their vessels. It feels to me like they would have learned from that though. Both of them had only ever had one vessel in their current state, and while Odium may not have the same level of intelligence that Honor is showing, it clearly hasn't liked Rayse or his plans for several thousand years, and that came to an acute head in the last several years, as evidenced by Rayse's swift transformation as he battled the power he wielded. Also, it's probably my sense of Brandon and how he does things that makes me believe we will see Taravangian lose one or both Shards. Once again, I am struck with the feeling of having to wait so long for another SA book *sigh*

I had written a whole thing about what you had behind the spoiler tag, but I'd forgotten we are on the Stormlight-only board, so perhaps I'll write something about it on the Cosmere board later.

53 minutes ago, Returned said:

I don't think that she could aim herself at some static state any more than Preservation could destroy something to preserve something else-- it's just not what the powers do.

A state of maximum Cultivation isn't a static one, it's simply an environment that has no more room for growth. Despite the massive size of planets, they are a finite space that given enough eons, will run out of room. Cultivation is, at the very least, planning for Cosmere-sized Cultivation, and Retribution is a big ol tool of change...emphasis on tool. As to the other part of this regarding MB
 

And yeah, Futuresight can, and does, cause some mind-bending/paradox/timey-wimey messes, but we can (at the very least) take the clues that Brandon throws out there, like Honor's comments on Cultivation's higher skill in predicting the future. Even that though, doesn't really have a scale by which to judge and probably won't for another decade or so...again *sigh*