Thucydides

I have been more absent than not from the 17thShard, and indeed the Cosmere in its entirety, for the past few weeks or so. Unfortunately this is going to be something of an unbreakable trend for say, the next two years or more. In February I will be flying down to Brazil to begin a two year proselyting mission for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, yep, I'm a Mormon. I won't have access to even so much as an Elendel Broadsheet for the entirety of that time, and I certainly won't be able to get on here. During the next month and a half I will be preparing myself, learning Portuguese among other things. So, that's it, next time I see you all I will speak Portuguese and be so far outdated on all things cosmere that I won't be able to say anything intelligent for six months. I look forward to catching up on everything when I get back. Until then,

Happy Theorizing, and may you find many questions and answers!

I had a thought, I am not sure if this has already been brought up, but I looked around and I didn't see it anywhere. Could we have a place for posting reviews of Brandon's books? Maybe a pinned thread for each book at the top of the appropriate forums - though that could be a problem in forums worlds with more books like Mistborn, it would add some four more pinned threads to the top - or a separate Reviews forum with a topic for each book.

I saw a twitter post by Brandon mentioning that he was worried about fans reaction to alloy (though he probably isn't worried anymore, Congrats Brandon!) and I thought if we had a spot where we could go and give our reactions it might get back to him, and then he could stop worrying about his more dedicated fans all the faster. It would also give a place that fans could find reviews by fellow fans to see if this or that book would be to their taste. On the other hand I suppose it could be a bit dangerous asking for reviews, it might invite trolls and be more trouble than it is worth, but it's just a thought.

“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!”

I think that the "tower" referred to in the death quote is Urithiru, the home of the Radiants. The spear is probably connected to Kaladin in some way, either because Kaladin is the "He" in the quote, or for some other reason. There's no definite connection between the first part of the death quote and the second part. I'm sure they're related, but it's not clear how.

I think the Fallen Title is symbolic of Dalinar being crushed by the Parshendi. On page 420 of the Hardback, about two thirds through chapter 28, as Dalinar walks with Navani back to his personal complex from pounding out the Latrine with his hammer, he describes the Glyphpair on his banners as being shaped into a Crown and a Tower. If Kaladin hadn't saved Dalinar House Kholin would have been practically finished, sounds like a fallen title to me, and the spear refers to the fact that he was refusing to use anything but that spear with the head knocked off, it means that he had to pick up the spear and fight again.

I like this one. It make complete sense to me.

The Heralds are splinters of Honor;

Just like the Elantrians are splinters of Aona's Shard;

And Returneds are splinters of Endowment.

Seems legit.

EDIT: Just saw that Endowment is not splintered... There goes my opinion...

So far as we have seen splinters are not/cannot be people, they are always things (spiritual objects?). The Divine Breath are splinters of Endowment, and, I may be wrong, but I think those are the only confirmed splinters that we have. It is heavily speculated that Seons and Skaze are splinters of SFHA (Shard formerly held by Aona) and SFHS (Shard Formerly held by Skaze), but I don't think we have any confirmation either way. We do know for a fact that Elantrians are not splinters or slivers. We had this all out with Brandon while back.

It is not clear yet as to where the bubble is rooted to, since we know that the planets are not stationary in space, but nor are the bubbles linked to the slider. It might be an advanced technique to allow the bubble to move with the slider.

I would think that the bubble would have the same frame of reference as it's creator. If you are on a train, the train appears stationary while the landscape moves; therefore, your bubble will move with the train. However you yourself don't appear stationary from your own point of view, when you take a step it appears as if you moved one step while the train stood still; therefore the bubble will not move with you. Basically when you create a bubble it will be rooted to whatever appears stationary from your frame of reference at the time you created the bubble.

So... I would guess it would move with a ship, which would be really cool if you could make one big enough to encompass the entire ship, but that would be a really tiny little ship.

Not any longer than some of Chaos theories

I finished, and enjoyed, the entire post, thank you very much for writing it.

Between Monday the 1st and Monday the 7th we got a foot of snow where I live. I was thinking of you guys (even though you were in a different and distant state...)

We should create several different timelines; one with Elantris as 0, another that starts at the Shattering, and a third that begins at a random point between Elantris and the Shattering. Then we can all split up into different camps and shake pens at each other!

(Though ultimately the one with the armies gets to set the calendar)

Sorry, my first thoughts when people started to throw out ideas were of the different calendars that different peoples used throughout history. Carry on.

He may have done the measuring, but it was the wife who documented it. It's very much possible to document on other people's behalves.

Small note, the two researchers are not married. As Ardents they cannot be married, this is made pretty clear by Shallan when Kabsal practically proposes to her, the woman actually thinks something to the effect of "it would be foolish to waste a lifetime of dedication" in connection with thoughts of the man and the oaths they have both taken. Sorry I am feeling to lazy to find the quote right now, you will have to look it up yourself.

Well someone should write up a theory and we can start espousing it. Thank you happyman, no I have not.

I had a thought regarding this. This "false trail" - from what we the readers know, the "false trail" seems to mean "They think I'm around the Purelake, but I'm really at the Shattered Plains." (This, of course, requires that the letter is written some time around the events of WoK, and not much, much earlier.) What if the "false trail" referred to, when the letter was written, means "They think I'm on Nalthis, but I'm really on Roshar", and that Hoid doesn't know that Galladon and the others have successfully trailed him to Roshar?

The feeling I had was that Hoid did know where they were, but they were much closer than he wanted them. So when he says:

28: I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them.

he is mostly using bravado. Yes, they are on a false trail, but they are still on the right planet, much too close for comfort. That may not be the case, maybe Hoid really is worried about them as little as his words convey, but I think there is a strong possibility he is bluffing at least a little.

edit - small grammatical error

I couldn't find any such description. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

First things first,I am just going to assume the letter writer was Hoid until someone can bring forward another good, viable theory more specific than "someone we haven't met yet". I apologize to those who dislike this assumption, feel free to substitute "the author" if it makes you feel better (hopefully that won't cause any of my points to fall through).

Now that that is out of the way...

31: If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you'll call them off.

32: Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once.

These lines really imply to me that:

The recipient, actually lets call him Fred, much easier; so, they imply Fred is either the one who set the seventeenth shard on Hoid's trail in the first place, or he is their leader/master/director. It could be both though I am inclined to think he just asked them to find Hoid, or set them on his trail, especially as they are referred to as "your friends of the Seventeenth Shard". That doesn't imply leadership to me.

In fact reading over it again it seemed to me that one of, if not The, main objective of the letter was to get Fred to interfere with the Seventeenth Shard's search. Look at the structure of the letter:

1: Old friend, I hope this missive finds you well.

2: Though, as you are now essentially immortal, I would guess that wellness on your part is something of a given.

3: I realize that you are probably still angry.

4: That is pleasant to know.

5: Much as your perpetual health, I have come to rely upon your dissatisfaction with me.

6: It is one of the cosmere's great constants, I should think.

7: Let me first assure you that the element is quite safe.

8: I have found a good home for it.

9: I protect its safety like I protect my own skin, you might say.

These first nine lines are all housekeeping, pleasantries, touching on important topics of the past in order to dismiss them, and setting Fred at ease. That is not to say I don't think they are packed with good information and may contain key clues, both for us and Fred, but right now I am talking about Hoid's intent in writing them. What was his purpose behind writing these lines? This theory says it was to put Fred in the right mood for his future request.

10: You do not agree with my quest.

11: I understand that, so much as it is possible to understand someone with whom I disagree so completely.

12: Might I be quite frank?

13: Before, you asked why I was so concerned.

14: It is for the following reason: Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him.

15: Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.

16: He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards.

17: Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm.

18: Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited.

19: One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say.

20: In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered.

21: Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.

22: You have accused me of arrogance in my quest.

23: You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin.

24: Both accusations are true.

25: Neither point makes the things I have written to you untrue.

Here Hoid quickly rehashes the pertinent parts of their previous disagreement, probably because he wants Fred to know he has not changed his views either, therefore they need not re-cover old ground; and skillfully uses those past disagreements to bring forward his best and strongest arguments. The placement of these lines in conjunction with the sudden switch to the topic of being chased in the following lines is what really makes me feel that Hoid wants Fred to intervene with the Seventeenth Shard much more than he actually puts in writing. Presumably because, as Fred is angry at him, has been for a long time, and will continue to be for some time yet, he might be less inclined to comply if Hoid said outright how badly he wanted him to intervene. He downplays both the intelligence and power of the Seventeenth Shard implying that he sees them as of little importance to anything, making it a small request to ask Fred to call them off, though the placement implies much more importance.

26: I am being chased.

27: Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect.

28: I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them.

29: They'll be happier that way.

30: I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.

31: If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you'll call them off.

32: Or maybe you could astound me and ask them to do something productive for once.

Small request, easy to comply with, doesn't require a break in the policy of nonintervention.

33: For I have never been dedicated to a more important purpose, and the very pillars of the sky will shake with the results of our war here.

34: I ask again.

35: Support me.

36: Do not stand aside and let disaster consume more lives.

37: I've never begged you for something before, old friend.

38: I do so now.”

And then the grand finale. Hoid hits the strongest points of his previous argument, calling up any stirrings that argument may have made in the heart of Fred, and finally closes with an all out plea relying on the strength of the friendship they once had, reaching back across time and bitter feelings to a time when they felt the common bond of that friendship. Notice the word I bolded, that word ties this final plea to the previous request, lending that request a very large amount significance without stating right out how important Hoid finds it that the Seventeenth Shard be asked to stop chasing him.

Now, I make no claims as to whether Hoid really cares that the Seventeenth Shard are chasing him. He may find them as unimportant as he pretends. I think they are probably more of a nuisance than he lets on, but that they are not the real reason he tries so hard to get Fred to call them off. What he really wants is for Fred to get involved, but Fred doesn't want to get involved, so Hoid brings out all the big guns calling forth his considerable powers of persuasion and tries to get Fred to do one simple thing. Something won't actually break any of Fred's self-imposed policies, something that will relieve a very large and potentially disastrous (when you are engaged in the kind of war Hoid is, and that war is coming to such a critical turning point as what we see in the Stormlight Archive, anything going wrong, even something small, is disastrous) relieve a large and potentially disastrous annoyance, but ultimately something that will get Fred involved with Hoid again and thereby make him more likely to respond favorably later when a second bigger, but much more urgent, request is made.

I am sorry, my thoughts surely do ramble about. Hopefully this makes some sort of sense.

Wow So far out of my understanding. I have some serious studying to do. What kind of classes does one take in college in order to go further in this and related subjects?

If at any point a Highprince finds that the costs of keeping up his army exceed the benefits from selling (or using) the gemhearts, he will leave the war.

This is quite simply not true. The culture and politics of Alethi society would never allow him to leave the war. To simply leave the war, for any reason, a Highprince would have to be even further disconnected with regular Alethi thought patterns then is Dalinar.

Concerning soulcasting bridges, I believe it should be completely possible. As for why they haven't done it yet...it's hard to say. Perhaps they are afraid of having bridges they couldn't take down in an emergency. As for the fortress in the plains, perhaps they find the logistics of moving supplies there unfeasible? Or they don't want to split their forces that way lest they become more vulnerable? I agree, both seem like brilliantly good ideas, which is why I have to think that there's some reason no one has adopted them after several years.

There is another factor here that has not yet been brought up.

It would be interesting to see one of those barracks get made - they were soulcast directly from air into stone. Unfortunately, Soulcastings happened at night and under strict guard to keep the holy rite from being witnessed by anyone other than ardents or very high-ranking lighteyes.

Soulcasting is heavily tied up in religion. To use it in any sort of innovation, especially one that might result in unwanted witnesses, would be a daring and provocative move indeed. The Highprinces are all much to comfortable to try anything of that kind, though it will be interesting to see what Dalinar does once he is made Highprince of War. Somehow, I think anything along these lines would be to dangerous for him to attempt for quite some time, there is already a risk that appointing him Highprince of War will splinter the Alethi unity, without adding further reasons for the others to attack him. But I guess we will see.

He made the necessary adjustments that came with the increased notoriety and workload brought on by the Wheel of Time. It is sad, but the change was not a bad thing, it was something that had to happen. He has handled it quite gracefully from what I have seen.

Haha! Thanks CabbageHead. Someday I will know all the common features of all the important software programs. At which point someone will do something new and revolutionize everything, making my knowledge obsolete. Oh well.

Sorry for the tangent, resume your discussion.

Now, what I was wondering about, is whether the weather in Shadesmar is also inverted, and if the Highstorms are the reflection of the eye of a single world spanning storm passing overhead in Shadesmar?

That is an interesting idea, I wish I knew more about storm systems. Has anyone tried analyzing the Highstorms for similarities to the EYE of a hurricane? Using the assumption that everywhere the Highstorm is not, is actually the storm?

Edit: I also have a completely unrelated and off topic question. How do you get your quote to say in the heading where it came from? I just use the quote tags when I quote someone, and apparently there is a better way when quoting from a post that is on this website. What is it?

Jordan first. If you cut Jordan's less than clean stuff I would like them evenly.

The books with Brandon co-writing are the best of the series imo but I just like his style better so that may be why!

I respectfully, and forcefully disagree! Brandon has done a fantastic job taking on the near impossible task of finishing The Wheel of Time, but Robert Jordan was infinitely better, after all it was his world. Nobody can match Jordan in his own world with his own characters, that's not to say he was a better writer than Brandon, just that he was better at writing The Wheel of Time, after all it is his creation.

I have greatly enjoyed both The Gathering Storm and Towers of Midnight, but I will always mourn the fact that Jordan did not have the opportunity to write them himself.

On the subject of the Runes along the side of the Warcamps Map and the Tower Battle Map, two things:

First, the runes on the Warcamp map could very easily represent the different houses, while the runes used in the Tower Battle are: Dalinar, and: Sadeas, not their respective house.

Second, if you look closely the third Rune down from the top of the map looks very much like the rune used for Sadeas in the Battle except that it is upside down, but the closest correlation I could see for Dalinar's Rune is the bottommost one on the Warcamp map.

...and it would fit in with the (still unconfirmed) quote from Brandon about how on Roshar "what you do" determines your powers...

I found the source, albeit a month or so late. Turns out it is not a direct quote, but rather a WoT fan on Theoryland paraphrasing what Brandon said. Here is the link: Pancakes & Fries, and it can also be found on the Wiki in the Brandonothology, right at the bottom under Europe Tour.

As Isabel already reported in the convention section, yesterday we had an unscheduled meeting with Brandon in Amsterdam...

...He talked about the link between his magic systems. One of the core principles is 'investing'. In l lot of his systems people are trough some mechanism invested with magic powers. In Elantris trough the Shaod, In mistborn it's genetic, in tWoK it depends on what some one has done.

Edit: I forgot the disclaimer, I added the bold in both quotes

"are when a Shard dies." Is that the correct wording? I mean, aside from a splintering in Elantris, is there any evidence that a Shard can die? It can splinter, and its Intent will be gone, replaced by the Intents of its composite Splinters, but a Shard can't truly "die", right? It's the consciousness behind the Shard that can be "killed". (Or so I gather.) That sounds like an important distinction to me.

We are a little bit at odds with Brandon on this point. As fans when we began talking of Shards and Shardholders Brandon said that when a person holds a Shard of Adonalsium they essentially become that Shard and he then refers to them as the Shard. He didn't say we had to do it that way, in fact he graciously gave us license to do whatever we want, but that was his way of doing it. As fans I don't think we have established a firm rule on this yet, though I think we still tend to refer to a Shard and their holder as being distinct and separate.

If someone could find that quote for me I would appreciate it. I have yet to successfully log onto the Brandonothology since the update, my internet being too slow.

Someone said that abilities in Roshar are granted not on a heriditary basis, but by what you do. That claim is in desperate need of some proper citations, but let’s take that as fact for a moment.

Brandon said this. I am 90% certain I remember him saying (well, typing) this in an interview. I was 100% sure, but then you cast doubt on it's authenticity, and my memory on these sorts of things has led me astray before... so now I am 90% sure.

I do know that I didn't read it in the brandonothology, however, ever since that was updated my computer freezes with any attempt to view it, so if anything was added (as opposed to simply rearranged) in the update, I won't have read it.

I do love this theory but I feel I can't espouse it any longer.

On all of this:

My principle is simple: To interact with the spiritual power of the Shard inside you, it must be in accordance with the Shard's intent. (That is, the name of the Shard. Ruin. Preservation. Endowment. It is what the Shard wants to do. Look at the bottom here for that reference.) I'm going to call it the Principle of Intent, simply because that makes it sound important. Now I simply have to show you how important this principle is.

Let's say that Breath is the Nalthis equivalent of those fragments of Ruin and Preservation on Scadrial. These latent powers of a Shard can be accessed and manipulated. With Preservation's magic, I can do lots of cool things, but one thing I can't do is move that fragment of the soul around. But, I could do such a thing if I was using the right magic system. On Nalthis, Endowment endows. It makes perfect sense that Awakening can move pieces of souls around, because that's Endowment's intent. Indeed, I can do similar things with Hemalurgy, because it is inherently destructive. Ruin ruins. Endowment endows. Preservation preserves.

"But wait, why does Allomancy cause such rapid changes if it's from Preservation? That seems antithetical to Preservation's intent." There was a thread about this on Adonalsium.net, actually, and I couldn't come up with a proper explanation. Now I can. Watch closely, because this is fancy footwork. Think, for a moment, less about the external effects of Allomancy. Brandon's said that powers don't need to have rational explanations, just that they are bound by rules. Is there any particular reason why iron does the Physical Internal power rather than pewter? No, and that's okay.

Instead, let's consider what happens to that piece of Preservation inside you when you utilize Allomancy. Awakening moves spiritual energy, or endows it to something else. This doesn't happen with Preservation. There ought to be some reason why Preservation provides a net gain of energy with Allomancy instead of Awakening's system, and there indeed is. Preservation does preserve, it just preserves the piece of Preservation inside you (and for that matter, every aspect of your body. There is no direct physical cost to Allomancy in the act of burning metals). When you think about it from a Shard level, each Shard has a focus. Ruin and Preservation share a focus in metal. This metal activates some spiritual action, I'd imagine. Lock and key. The metal is the key to all the Metallic Arts. The metal must do something with respect to Preservation, and what's it going to do? With the Principle of Intent, that fragment of Preservation inside you wants to preserve itself, its spiritual energy. It also wants to preserve yourself. So, the only place it receive energy from is some external source, in order to preserve your own energy.

I agree completely.

But this:

Wait a minute. I just got the most brilliant idea ever as I wrote that. Brandon said that Preservation or Ruin could, in principle, fuel any of the Metallic Arts, but he said that it expends power in ways gods are hesitant to do (I can't find the citation right now, but I think it's in the Hero of Ages spoiler thread). Why would it expend energy? Doesn't it all regenerate? No, I think not. Not exclusively. What if a Shard's power only regenerates when the Shard is doing something according to the Shard's intent? Atium is of Ruin, and so using that energy with respect to Ruining something will make it regenerate. The Well put Rashek into severe Preservation mode, making him extremely reactionary. So in a roundabout way, that again is Preservation. That kind of explains why dispersing the power broke Ruin's prison--it was an act not of Preservation, so the power wasn't conserved. Also, if this was true, it makes a heck of a lot more sense why Endowment Returns people, and why he isn't dead from doing so. The power all comes back eventually.

just doesn't seem right to me.

I would say rather, that there are limits to the power that a Shard can access at any given time. Just as our bodies only hold so much energy and after we use it we need to sleep and to eat, just so a Shard can run out of energy, in the moment. However, just as a man who has spent a week working himself to the bone can rest and recover, a Shard who has expended all of it's energy can also rest and recover, but you wouldn't say that the energy the man expended came back to him (sure in a roundabout way you could say it has but you understand my meaning here), instead you would say he got new energy from his food and rest. So don't say that energy comes back when a shard acts according to it's intent, that seems to imply that a Shard has an Absolute amount of energy, and when it acts outside it's intent it loses that energy thus becoming less, FOREVER. Rather say that a Shard only has so much energy at a given time and using it for something other than that Shard's specific intent will be more difficult, and use more energy than doing something in accordance with the intent (not to mention there has to be psychological barrier, the whole "molded to the intent of the Shard thing).

So in our analogy you could say our man is a professional weight lifter, that is what he is best at (his intent). If he goes running that doesn't mean he won't recover the energy he used, but running will be more difficult for him, it will tire him more quickly and to a greater degree, therefore requiring longer and more restful recovery, than if he had done his usual weight training.

That is how I see things, please, point out the errors in my reasoning, there are bound to be a few.

I picked up The Wheel of Time, on the recommendation of my brother, about the time Knife of Dreams came out. I was rather distressed at Robert Jordan's passing. When I heard that Brandon was going to finish the series I immediately went out and bought Elantris (I wasn't going to sit in agony wondering if he would ruin the best fantasy series since Tolkien). By the time I had finished reading it my fears evaporated and I spent the next six months telling everyone I knew that Brandon Sanderson was the best author in the genre and recommending they read him.

I read the Mistborn books later and enjoyed them, though they can't hold a candle to Elantris in my mind. I followed his blog and read Warbreaker as he posted it, promptly buying the Hardback when it came out (ahh the days of financial carelessness!). I even read his Scribbler sample chapters and was quite distressed to hear it would not be published, yet...

And now I spend time rereading, cross-referencing with itself, and generally dissecting The Way of Kings. A rather generic path to Fandom, perhaps, but I got here just the same.

Hello everyone, I decided to introduce myself though I have been around for a bit. You may call me Thucydides or Grant whichever you like, though if you see me in the market and yell either name at me I will respond no more than Tacroy¹ did. I lurked on the general theories board for maybe six months or so before I started posting anything and it has been at least another six months since then.

I graduated from high school last spring and am now working and teaching myself AutoCAD (out of a textbook) in the hope of getting a better job with which to fund a two year mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints (yes I will miss the release of A Memory of Light and Stormlight Archive 2 ).

I love reading though I have to be careful because once I get into a good book I tend to neglect everything (I finished a reread of the Wheel of Time in 1-2 months once) which is great for finishing books and bad for sleep schedules, school work, social life, family duties, in short pretty much everything else. Outside of books I love mountain climbing, board games, run-on sentences and Milkshakes.

As a final note, I strongly advocate a book signing in Anchorage Alaska, preferably not while I am gone.

¹See "The Lives of Christopher Chant"

That would be an excellent quote to see.

I remember seeing this quote somewhere as well. It was online somewhere but I don't remember where.