Tahva4815

Before I start, I want to say I'm a gigantic fan of these books, and Mistborn especially was my first Sanderson and so my first love when it comes to this universe.

I've really enjoyed Era 2 up to this point, and I found in particular The Bands of Mourning to be one of the best books in the entire cosmere. I had been eagerly awaiting this book since I first read Bands back when it came out.

Unfortunately, I found this to be a fairly bland conclusion to the series. Personally I feel that Telsin and her relationship with Wax was not build up particularly well over the course of the series, and having her supplant his uncle as the "main" villain ended up being a detriment to the story as a whole. Largely I felt that a lot of things we were expecting to get clarification on we just didn't. Who really created the bands of mourning? What was Kelsier up to all those years and how did he come to regain a body, rule over the Southern Scadrians, etc? In general I thought the southerners would have a MUCH larger role in this book than they did, and I don't feel like this really followed up on the plotlines of previous books in a satisfying way.

Everything to do with Autonomy/Trell I found to be poorly done. The info dumping at the beginning of the book felt like an odd way to reveal what had been a mystery going back to the first book, but then by the end we still don't know what these "men of gold and red" are all about, and it felt really weird that the Set had like three different schemes going on that were all conflicting. It was so clear the Set was a mess that I never felt like they were a genuine threat in this one at all.

I also now think the cosmere (at least currently) is actively hurting the stories rather than helping them. In the early days it was a really cool thing going on in the background, but between ROW and this I just feel like the individual stories would be a lot better without it being SO in your face. My biggest thing is that it comes across like all the characters just read a ton of words of brandon between books. Every five minutes someone is spouting off about "investiture this" and "cosmere that" and it just reads as extremely weird that all these characters are SO knowledgable. In addition it starts to give off massive deus ex machina vibes when random powers from other planets are being used to solve Mistborn related issues. To me the whole Ghostbloods plot could have been excised entirely, and I would've much preferred to have Kelsier be used to actually explain more about what he has been up to and justify the cliffhanger at the end of the Bands of Mourning, which was just literally not addressed in this book at all.

Furthermore, Marasi's storyline with the Ghostbloods was SO similar to Shallan's that it really bothers me that neither of them actually joined the organization. I don't really understand the point of having two characters both decide not to join the same organization and go through essentially the same plot related storyline. 

The characters were still well written, and the book never bored me, in no way would I call it "bad." But it didn't come close to reaching Brandon's highs, and it certainly didn't hold a candle to The Hero of Ages, in which every little thread in the trilogy came together in a beautiful and ingenious way. This book really didn't feel like it pulled together the threads from Era 2 in a cool or satisfying way. If anything by the end it really did feel like all of Era 2 was unnecessary and nothing much was accomplished at all. I get that Era 2 was never in his plans, but either he should've kept the story smaller scale so that nothing in the "cosmere scale" needed to really change by the end of it, or alter the plan, because it really came across like Autonomy will just be back causing trouble later, and it doesn't feel like anything was really accomplished. 

These are just my thoughts, between this and ROW I'm losing faith in the cosmere wide crossovers being as cool as I once thought they were. It was cool when it was a mysterious thing in the background, but now it just feels like its distracting from the actual plots of these books with a bunch of stuff that just feels sheohorned and weird.

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You know what really helps the pacing? Reading it with SH interludes at the appropriate points (this is how I read the series now).

So, I think there is a disconnect between characters and reality here. In WoA (which had a LOT of the same issues) the characters ended the book knowing they’d messed up and were in trouble. In this one WE know they’re in trouble but THEY don’t. 
 

Which may mean that book 5 goes even worse than HoA did for the heroes at first, as they have no real information on what’s actually going on.

Oh interesting I'd never thought to do that. Is there a reading order for that out there somewhere?

I'll say that I did think the Wit epilogue was haunting and certainly left me feeling like everyone is way in over their head with T as Odium now. Watching Wit get got when he's been close to omnipotent up this point certainly got the point across.

52 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It reminds me a little of WoA, where the good guys win their empire. But at the last minute Vin releases... something. But Elend gains superpowers and they DID win. And you don’t really find out what Ruin is or what they’ve done until book 3.

It always felt narratively odd in WoA, too. But if you read WoA and HoA back to back it feels a lot more fluid. I actually tend to read the end of WoA as an extended prologue to HoA.

I think part five in this book may end up acting more like an extended prologue to KoW and be better on reread with the full front five. It ended by upping the stakes on multiple fronts, but in a way we won’t really feel until book 5.

Both sides can perma-kill now, and have access to bombs. The GBs are declaring war on Shallan and co. and are heavily implied to be run by a character we KNOW she isn’t ready to deal with (and will be around for awhile yet). We discovered during this book that Odium wasn’t as powerful as we thought, only for someone more dangerous to take it up - and the characters have NO. IDEA. And Cultivation, whom we’ve assumed to be an ally, is now in league with the enemy. And the heroes don’t know that either.

This stuff falls flat here because we don’t see the effect. But it is going to be a big deal in book five, at which point these setup moments will be showing their effect.

You make a very fair point. I read WoA and HoA back to back years after they came out so I didn't have to wait at all. I basically agree with you and if the next book is similar to Hero of Ages in tone/impact than I think my feelings about RoW will change. Ultimately it is a bridge book and a lot of it is gonna come down to what it's bridging to I suppose. 

So I sincerely hope you are right and all this stuff pays off in Book 5. That being said I actually think Well of Ascension does have some similar pacing problems to this book, but where it succeeds at being an end of act 2 where I feel RoW fails is that at the end of WoA Sazed/Vin are both brought to their lowest point yet. Dalinar/Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin/Navani are all riding high at the end of this book. I think that's a bit of a disconnect for me, I truly wonder if Taravangian taking over  at the end of Book 3 or halfway through this one and then things going horribly wrong for them wouldn't have worked better.

Again it really comes down to the execution of Book 5. If Book 5 is 10/10 spectacular, all the weirdness of this book can be justified as a necessary evil.

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Ati wasn’t fighting Ruin having been completely subsumed by it. Rayse’s situation is actually more analogous to Kell as Preservation. The power and the vessel were not functioning well together and the former wanted to escape the latter.

But everyone, including us, assumed it was the former case and not the latter. We were wrong... but now we ARE dealing with a Shard in tune with its Vessel. And it’s a new Vessel - which means T is still basically himself and mostly free to act.

I'm speaking more out of universe. As a reader, I need my villains to be threatening. I need the heroes to falter. I used Avatar earlier and I think its a good example, at the end of Book 2 the Fire Nation gets a major W and our heroes take a hard L. At no point in this series has a book ended with the heroes taking a hard L and  the villain getting a major W. Its slowly sapped the tension for me as a reader, and unless Book 5 ends on an Odium victory I think Brandon is in danger of losing the narrative a bit.

So to me it doesn't really matter the in universe reasoning for why Odium is fighting Rayse or whatever. Ultimately the story needs to be structured in a way that builds tension, and I don't feel like this book did that for book 5. 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

You're right that one thing Odium (Rayse) wanted was to get free of Roshar.  But he has other equally important goals too.  His main overall goal is to destroy all other shards.  So he's made it clear that we wanted to destroy Honor and Cultivation beyond repair (including destroying all their spren) and then leave Roshar to destroy the rest of the Shards throughout the Cosmere.  Odium's end goal wasn't human extermination, but that was a likely side effect of his actual goal.  In the current Desolation, as in all Desolations, he's trying to destroy Honor and Cultivation's investure, which will have the result of freeing him.  He doesn't care about the Bondsmiths' ability to release him from the Oathpact, that's not his main objective.  If it's offered to him, then he would accept because it offers him a chance of early victory.  But he doesn't need to enter that kind of deal to win, the Radiants have to risk a lot in the deal because Odium knows he would win even without the deal.  This is how it's always been portrayed in the books.

 

Look at this from Dalinar's perspective - what is Dalinar trying to do?  What is the win state for Dalinar's side?  If Dalinar wins the contest of Champions, Odium will withdraw personally, but the Everstorm will remain and the Fused will continue to be immortal and unrelenting enemies.  So in terms of Dalinar's chances to win the overall war, defeating Odium's champion doesn't move the needle very much toward an actual victory.  It is essentially impossible for Dalinar to win the war, at best he can establish a secure perimeter and defend it from Fused incursions for all of time.

If Odium's champion wins, Dalinar has to become Odium's servant and it's implied he will be sent to other worlds to do Odium's bidding there.  So Odium gets Dalinar as his servant and gets one additional agent on other worlds.  But there are many men of Dalinar's caliber that are available to Odium and it's strongly implied he has agents and/or allies in other places in the Cosmere.  So Odium gains nothing significant by getting Dalinar - nothing he couldn't have gotten otherwise.  And Odium himself is still trapped on Roshar, unable to leave and fulfill his actual mission and he still has hundreds or thousands of years of warfare until the side of the Radiants is whittled down enough to allow him to fully destroy Honor and Cultivation.

So neither side really gains anything if they win.  If SA5 ends in either of those states - perpetual war with Odium on the sidelines or perpetual war with Odium on the sidelines and Dalinar forced to switch sides - it doesn't feel like a satisfying ending.

 

Completely agree and this is my big issue with this book. It feels like this deal is basically fine for either side more or less. I feel like it really needs to be all or nothing for the Champion duel thing to have weight to it. 

Part of the issue is Odium just seems like a fool at this point. He accomplished nothing of note in the past two books, when he's supposed to be the main villain? Compare him to Ruin, who absolutely ran the show for the first 2 mistborn books. The stakes aren't there for me. 

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is kind of an exaggeration, but has a core of truth.

Not mutually exclusive notions.

I think what we are seeing is that the sides are becoming clearer. Like at the beginning of Rhythm of War we are seeing garbage collection and Ialai is history.

Likewise we are now seeing the Singers having started to go off screen and we will seecore conflict among Shards.

In which way is a downer ending and a conclusive ending a contradiction? Please explain.

I think SA5 will be that.

Well, we are set up for a major setback

• the enemy is ahead in information (Dalinar would be horrified)
• weapons are ready
• a decisive battle is agreed upon
• we have a traitor, the worst traitor imaginable - a Shard

I am going to make a bold prediction. At the end of SA5 Cultivation will have switched sides and Odium will be free.

Honestly I'm wondering if Cultivation isn't going to end up being the true big bad in the end. She has now succcesfully installed her pawns (Dalinar and Taravangian) as leaders of both sides, if Dalinar eventually becomes the new vessel of Honor, Cultivation will have "cultivated" both new vessels.

I guess I'm left feeling kinda worried about the *vibe* of the overall story if that makes sense. I don't really know how to put it but the stakes don't feel high enough to me going into Book 5. With Taravangian as Odium now what does the war even like look like? Most of the singer characters we met in this book were so sympathetic as to barely be villains. The first 2 books did such a good job hyping up this ancient conflict between Heralds and Radiants and Voidbringers/Singers but now it kinda feels like...a pillow fight? Idk both sides seem to respect each other more than they want to kill. 

I get that the whole series is ultimately the two sides coming together, but it feels too early for that. 

Really its hard to know what to make of this book until we have book 5. If that book ends on a downer I think this book will work better. If that book feels very conclusive than I think I would have liked to see more of a "Zuko during the Crossroads of Destiny" type moment from some of our characters here. Maybe Shallan SHOULD have killed Kelek and gone down the dark path. Maybe Navani should have just up and died and the tower gets totally corrupted. If this was supposed to be the Empire Strikes Back of the series it really didn't feel like it. Now maybe it isn't, and we're actually still setting the table for the real conflict in books 6-10. But it just isn't clear right now what the endgame is for anyone really and I don't feel the stakes.

Obviously not close to giving up on the series, but this is the first time I've been truly worried that the cosmere is just getting a little out of Sanderson's control.

6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Shard has theorized for awhile that Cultivation’s plan involved Nightblood, Odium and Taravangian’s most emotional day. So I don’t think it was really out of left field...

I mean people theorize on here about a lot of things, but I don't feel like it had been set up in the text how Taravangian would be able to pull Nightblood into a vision. Nightblood hurting/killing Odium had been brought up by Taravangian himself during ROW so the effect it had on Odium didn't feel totally crazy to me but how Taravangian managed to make that work kinda came out of nowhere.

I liked the twist for how shocking it was and how disturbing the future implications seemingly are, but I also think it would have worked better if Szeth had gotten more screentime building up to this moment. It kinda felt like Szeth was literally just a plot piece used in this book to get Taravangian to Nightblood.

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

It's a twist, and I guess it does make the "big bad evil" more of a threat, but not sure how I feel about Taravangian ascending, I have always been ambivalent about him as a character. I guess I will need to go re-read his POV's and chapters he is in, as I found myself not caring and skimming them in the books.  -- Again this and the Hoid epilogue feel more like unneeded Cosmere set up. 

Overall liked the Kal story arc, having depression/anxiety in my family and something I have struggled with at times, though not on a daily basis, this felt like finally real progress and growth for him, loved the level up sequence  

Felt that the Shallon and Adolin/Maya arc though it felt pushed at times(like too much was edited)  was still a good side arc.  
I missed Rock, Lopen and some of the other side humor like from Lift.
While I really liked the Lift - Chicken scenes, again I wanted more of the characters I am invested in and less of the new, the fact that we get no scenes of Lift imprisoned and her interactions with Mraize was disappointing. 


 

I agree that I'm unsure how to feel about the Taravangian thing right now. Honestly after the build up in the last few chapters I think for it to really work they need to absolutely lose t to him in the next book, otherwise I wonder if it wouldn't have played better to have them defeat Rayse/Odium at the end of Book 5 but then have Rayse/T as the villain for the back half. Idk it depends a lot on how it shakes out. I think if there had been less cosmere stuff in other places it might have felt more organic, but again it's kinda weird that Hoid is now so willing to tell everyone secrets about the universe all the time when he had been so vague always before. 

Kaladin arc was the best part of the book for me, I thought that really worked wonders.

I liked Adolin/Shallan's arc, and I get the point of it but honestly the reveal that Shallan killed her previous spren didn't feel like enough to me to justify how painful it felt to her. I've thought about it and I think in theory it makes sense that she thinks everyone would hate her for it and in theory this works as a reveal but when it came out I just didn't buy that to her personally this was somehow worse/deeper truth than her killing her parents. The Adolin conclusion played much better for me, I was expecting him to just resurrect Maya which would somehow prove he was worthy to the Honorspren but the was it happened instead was much better.

Totally agree that losing Rock and Lopen and Lift for most of the book was absolutely brutal. It's actually a crime there wasn't a Lift chapter of her imprisoned talking to Mraize now that you bring it up. I don't understand why those characters were so underutilized, I feel the same way about Szeth as well.

Someone brought this up in another thread but a lot of pages are spent introuducing us to this whole party of people Adolin/Shallan are traveling with and none of them do literally anything of importance, couldn't that time have been spent on other characters we already know? I liked the new Fused/Listener characters but the new radiants with Shallan and co. in Shadesmar did absolutely nothing for me.

Just finished. Overall a mixed bag lean positive for me.

From a character standpoint, pretty fantastic, though the ultimate outcomes for Shallan/Kaladin were kind of predictable, how we got there was some of Sanderson's best character work yet, up there with Vin from the OG MB trilogy and Dalinar in OB. So major props on that end.

I liked the "new" character arcs of Navani and Venli/Eshonai, although ultimately I was left wanting a little bit MORE out of Venli idk, it felt like she didnt really do a ton in the the last two parts of the book.

I don't have any issue with all the cosmere stuff, though at times I felt it got a little ridiculous with so many previously mysterious characters just info dumping on investiture and cognitive shadows and stuff all the time (Hoid, Vasher/Zahel, Mraize Raboniel, etc). I thought that was kinda odd honestly. Like when the characters in GOT started talking about the Night King as if they knew his motives as well as the audience did. Idk, kinda weird to see Navani using words like "investiture" without a ton of explanation where she heard that term from.

At first I loved how we saw the Fused developed from just mindless evil things, but by the end it felt like half  the ones we met weren't even that bad? I have some issues with the way Odiums forces have been built up because it feels like one step forward two steps back sometimes.

Ending twists were insane for sure, T becoming Odium blew my mind no doubt. I need to see how it turns out but I ended the book feeling nothing but PURE PURE FEAR, and I would really love if Book 5 can recapture some of  that Hero of Ages, end of the world, total hopelessness vibe, because honestly OB and ROW both have kinda felt too easy for our heroes on a plot level. Hard for them on an internal character level, but at no point have i felt like they wouldn't win the day and  they always seem too. One of these stormlight books has to end on an unequivacal loss at some point.

I feel a lot of what other people are saying about the pacing. Ultimately it felt like Part 1 and Part 5 was where everything happened and between that  was a lot of filler. Not all of it  was bad by any means, but at a certain point there's only so much of Kaladin moping or Navani not knowing what to do that you can take. I think some more Dalinar chapters in there would have been good, or maybe some more SZETH! Come on where was he in this book, we got ONE interlude with him, very dissappointing.

Also after just coming off of Dawnshard I thought it was weird that Lopen bascially wasn't in this thing at all?

TBH thought Rlain should've bonded the Sibling and that instead of the Sibling being "purged" of Voidlight, Rlain could bond her as a Sja-Anat corrupted spren and bring about the change in the war that we didn't have before. Like I thought it was going to turn out that Raboniel had pumped this new Warlight into the Sibling and that was what was gonna make her work now. Navani bonding her felt kinda whatever, although I did love how she finished the first oath.

There were some major fist pumping moments towards the end, I thought Kaladins 4th ideal was well done and the scene with him and Tien made me cry harder than a book scene in years.

Rlain and Debben were great and I loved them.

Jasnah's few chapters were incredible and her having a (asexual?) relationship with Wit was one of my favotie things and makes SO MUCH SENSE.

I like the 10 days as a time constraint, it will give the next book some real momentum counting down to the showdown, ultimately I just wish the CHARACTERS felt lower at the end of  this one. Honestly I think they really need to lose at the end of Book 5 for this to work for me, otherwise I needed this one to end on a much bigger cliffhanger. I don't want to keep comparing it to OG Mistborn, but I love just how defeated Vin/Elend where at the end of  that and how bad it felt like they had messed up. In this one, we the audience have a sense of how bad Taravangian as Odium is, but the heroes have no idea about it and I think maybe them losing the tower permanently, pushing Dalinar into the duel might have felt better. Or someone more major than Teft dying. One of the big boys got to bite in the next one.

Overall I made a lot of criticisms here but I really did enjoy the book a ton and theres so much to dig into (didnt even mention Adolin, I think this  is the most complete his character has felt, first time he felt like a real character to me, also I loved the whole trial sequence). Some stuff I had correctly predicted or seen on threads here (Spren being in on the Recreance, Shallan bonding before), other twists (T as Odium,  Ishar), were insane and left me breathless for Book 5.  I guess at this point I just expect the absolute best from Sanderson and I think from a plot and atmosphere standpoint this was not his best work.  Love where he is taking all of these characters, but I worry the cosmere is becoming a hindrince to the story of this one (or three) planets of Roshar. Tbd, I guess we have both one and six books left to go.

Created an account here JUST BECAUSE OF THIS TWIST.

On one hand it was one of the most shocking things yet in the entire series and in a book that NEEDED to up the stakes going into Book 5 this twist 100% succeeded in making me  absolutely TERRIFIED of the implications of this.

On the other hand it came out of absolutely nowhere and I think I need to see how it plays out before being sure about it, like we've heard so much about how bad of a man Rayse was only for that to....not really matter at all?