Torol Sadeas

On 11.8.2022 at 4:14 PM, Treamayne said:

I just had a thought about all of this:

• Yes, Ruthar is sexist and a political enemy and threat
• Yes, Jasnah was obviously manipulating the situation
• Yes, Dalinar tried to calm things down

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But haven't we seen Wit Riot and Sooth on Roshar before. . .

Maybe it was more of a set-up than it seems on the surface.

My issue with the scene was not what it tried to do, but that i thought it was horribly executed. It reminded me of a lot of Shallan scenes in TWoK in the sense that Brandon tried way too hard to make it funny. 

23 hours ago, Tower said:

It makes sense narratively too. We’ve seen Adolin angry to the point where he is described as “irrevocably angry” and we haven’t really seen the fallout from Adolin killing Sadeas or Adolin learning about how Dalinar killed Evi. 

My problem is that Adolin is simply the character who I agree with a lot more in this discussion. With regard to the second part of this sentence, we haven't seen any real fallout for Dalinar either, have we? And their crimes aren't even close to comparable. That's why their talk in RoW bothers me so much, Dalinar basically equates Adolin's killing of Sadeas with his slaughtering of thousands of innocents. So yes, he is angry, but if you want to set Adolin up for joining Odium make him do actually questionable things. And no, killing Sadeas was not a morally questionable thing. Just like defeating the Nazis required killing many people in WWII, defeating Odium and saving humanity required killing Sadeas. And I think that is the message Brandon is really trying to get across with this plotline: Dalinar's sense of honor is also an extreme ideology. Not to mention that there is a decent argument that Adolin only acted in self-defense.  

When Adolin killed Sadeas he undeniably saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions of lives. If he doesn't kill Sadeas, Odium just wins the war straight up. Why would you suddenly want to make this act look bad? It wasn't bad and several Radiant orders are in complete and total agreement with it. Even Kaladin probably wouldn't hold it against Adolin. There will be no significant fallout. Even if Adolin killing Sadeas becomes public knowledge, Jasnah will pardon him and she will be right in doing so. 

I can somewhat see your point, but Adolin is just right about Sadeas and just right in the debates with his father. It's (imo) an awful idea to make him join Odium on the basis of completely justified feelings. The change from his (more than understandable) frustrations with Dalinar to outright betraying everyone he loves and joining an evil force in just ten days is just a bridge too far. 

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

The Death Rattle "So the night shall reign, for the choice of Honor is life." Is from WoR so it can't have been about something from WoK

Thanks for the correction 

Personally, I'm still not a fan of these Gavinor theories. The contest of champions has too much build up over 4 books to be decided with a cheap trick. It would be awful narrative wise imo 

On 24.6.2022 at 1:02 PM, Tower said:

Here is how I think the contest will play out:

Dalinar will beat Odium’s champion, as in he will incapacitate them to the point where they could not possibly kill him. Dalinar will then refuse to kill the champion saying that it is clear that he won so killing isn’t necessary. Odium will say that Dalinar must kill the champion in order to win the contest and if he refuses he is breaking the terms that were set. Dalinar accepts that he is breaking the terms fulfilling the “choice of honor is life” death rattle.

I do not like the Gavinor champion theory, I would rather see him in the back 5 as a main. But this theory kind of informed the one I posted: who could be a champion that Dalinar would refuse to kill? Adolin stuck out because there are little hints that support it, along with how it would effect other characters. Adolin being the champion for Odium has the greatest narrative impact in my opinion.

 

It would have a great impact, but make very little sense narratively. The little hints you talk about are all conflicts between Adolin and Dalinar where Adolin is completely correct and Dalinar is a bit of a douche. For example when Dalinar constantly judges his clothing for no reason at all. As if wearing a slightly ornamented uniform is the embodiment of evil. Or when he compares the killing of Sadeas to his own war crimes in one of the RoW chapters.. I think those "hints" are only meant to show how Dalinar's sense of Honor is an extreme in its own way. He even takes the "the next step is the most important one" thing too far, as he tends to just dismiss his actions with a "yeah it was horrible, but I'm good now".

To be honest, I think that Dalinar's biggest weakness will finally be exploited. As Sadeas puts it, he "never really trusts anyone to do the job." That's why he will be his own champion, even though Kaladin and Szeth are both significantly more powerful fighters. And him choosing himself will lead to him losing the contest of champions. 

On 22.6.2022 at 10:04 PM, cometaryorbit said:

 

"Choice of honor is life" one to me sounds more like one of the Honor associated characters' decision to spare or save someone's life having really disastrous consequences down the road. (And the actual choice might have already happened - we've seen several possibilities- just not the consequences yet.)

I always thought this was fulfilled when Szeth didn't kill Taravangian in his last chapter in The Way of Kings. I'm pretty sure it explicitly says something like "honor prevailed, for the moment." 

This seems like such a weird lie to make. I don't see how another Herald dying and causing the desolation instead of Taln would change much for Dalinar. 

Took me about a week to get to chapter 6 (i think 6, it's definitely named Bridge Four). After that I read the rest in 2 days. The start was kinda slow and confusing for me, but the first bridge run was the chapter that really started to catch me 

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I find this entire "taking pain" thing from Odium kinda weird. I wish it wouldn't exist. 

With regards to Moash, I feel like his Oathbringer version doesn't really fit the RoW version. Oathbringer Moash was still (in a sense) very loyal to Kaladin, he would have never actually tried to drive him into suicide. And he wasn't an evil person. For a while I thought we'd see a Windrunner Moash build some sort of resistance against Odium on the singer side. Basically, I would have given Moash the Venli arc (or made him a part of it), only as a Windrunner instead of as a Willshaper. And I still think it would fit the Moash we see in WoK and WoR a lot more. Don't forget his bravery and self-sacrifice at the Battle of the Tower, where he was one of the men who took charge. But that chance obviously died when he randomly decided to kill Jezrien. It would have been an interesting conflict for the Kholins, too: Imagine if the murderer of Elhokar came back as a hero who freed thousands of innocent singers from Odium and the Fused. 

I do not want to see a Moash redemption arc after RoW though because there are already too many of those in the story. Between at least Gaz, Venli, Szeth and Dalinar. 

I just really can't see Dalinar serving Odium. It would totally betray his Oathbringer plot. At the same time there are several reasons he has to go. Contrary to Kaladin, a sacrificial death would actually fit Dalinar's arc. Which is why I think it will probably happen. But I expect him to do some great things before he goes. 

Why I think he needs to go: First of all, he is a tyrant, and almost incapable of giving up power ( like Sadeas said: he never really trusts anyone to do the work.) His style of leading is very authoritarian. This was clearly showed in RoW, especially in his interactions with Adolin (where he massively played down his own crimes, btw). 

Secondly, because of all his war crimes, Dalinar still has a bad reputation in some parts of the world. Think of his interactions with The Mink. 

Lastly, he is the only one of our main cast whose death would make sense narratively. And I can't see all of them surviving when they are supposed to take a smaller role in the back 5. (I expect Shallan and Kaladin to have a role similar to the one Jasnah has right now)   

A sacrificial death would be the perfect end for Dalinar in my opinion. This would also be a step towards equality for darkeyes, as Kaladin is his natural successor. Because, if we are being honest, Kaladin and not Dalinar would be leading the Knights Radiant if it wasn't for the Alethi caste system. I think the best way to view Dalinar is, as Wit does at some point in WoR, as a necessary evil. 

43 minutes ago, Honorless said:

And then in Oathbringer, Bridge Four tells Kal "not all Lighteyes!"... just... completely missing the point and putting everything on him. And now the Lighteyes Darkeyes issue has pretty much completely been shoved under the carpet in face of the Greater Threat™ and narrative role of that conflict seems to have been passed onto human-Singer relations. I wonder what the point of so much focus on Darkeyes Lighteyes even was.

I completely, 100% agree that this issue needs to be adressed more. And NOT by Jasnah. 

I think/really hope that this will be a large part of Kal's arc in book 5. Now that he is somewhat better mentally, I think his 5th ideal will be about taking greater responsibility and leading humans. When he talked about the "medical revolution" to Lirin he noticed how much of a difference he can make when he's not on the battlefield. He also got reminded of how horrible Alethi society is. I would be very mad if Brandon gave the entire abolishing slavery plotline to Jasnah. The "benevolent" monarch is not at all a satisfying solution to the discrimination problems of Alethkar, at least it's not satisfying to me. Have Kaladin initiate these changes, if possible with large protests! Humanity is basically just a cult to him anyway nowadays   

But the main reason I think this will actually happen is because RoW clearly sets Kaladin up for something great that he does off the battlefield. Odium actually states this explicitly at some point. And I think there are two ways in which this would manifest: 1. Building peace with the singers, tying together two of his plotlines that started way back in the first book (compassion towards parshmen and Lirin's pacifism), 2. fighting the Alethi classism and slavery, also a plotpoint for him that started in book 1. And honestly, this is the only way I can think of that actually gives a decent conclusion to Kaladin's arc. 

People always tell me that Kaladin is "not interested" in politics, but this is not really true. There are plenty of times in WoK and WoR where he voices strong opinions. For example when Adolin wants to give him shards and make him "lighteyed", he replies that he wants life for people like him (darkeyes) to change. It just vanished in OB, because of the greater threat. But when he did the mental health stuff in RoW, it kinda came to the surface again. Anyway, this is where I really want his story to move. Making great changes on a political level. 

One thing I also really don't like about how the series has progressed so far is the concentration of power to the Kholin family. I agree that Dalinar leading the Radiants was a necessary evil at first, but now he should step back. 

Here's the thing: I absolutely loved the climax of Oathbringer with Dalinar refusing to give into Odium. But at the same time some things in part 5 seem kinda rushed: For example, the entire Sadeas/Amaram army joining Odium could have used some more buildup.  Also there should have been at least a small a number of their soldiers who refuse to side with the Voidbringers. That there wasn't is a bit weird to say the least. Then after the battle Shallan's wedding, Jasnah becoming Queen, Skar and Drehy returning with Elhokar's son and even Dalinar learning to read all just get kinda rushed in at the last second. All of these thing are/should be huge events, but are quickly dismissed in a single page or even less. 

After the amazing battle you just have a bunch of important events packed into the last 30 pages or so, leading to none of them getting the attention they deserve. This is especially true of Jasnah becoming Queen. For this reason I prefer the endings of  The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, they simply feel much more whole to me. 

Edit: can add Jezrien's death to this list, too. 

I don't know, but to me Hoid being in a relationship is just weird. With all the knowledge and experience he has Jasnah can not ever really be his equal, but at the same time he works under her as king's Wit. I don't know, Something about this dynamic is just kinda weird to me. The age difference also contributes.. 

Furthermore, Hoid is extremely unreliable and a bit of an asshole at times. I am against this ship xD 

I agree with you in the sense that Honor and Odium combining to War is a horrible idea. It is the exact opposite of the message I want to see. Basically every war we've seen in the series so far has been completely unnecessary bloodshed. The singers only recently regaining their minds and humans not remembering their earlier conflicts gives a unique chance for peace. Look at Kaladin's arc: It has in large part been about how war with the singers is senseless, and how common singers are not their enemies. That is a reason for his battle fatigue and I think he will play a large role in forming a peace between the peoples. His 5th ideal will be about seeking peace when possible IMO. It really ties together his singer plotline with the still unresolved philosophical conflict with his father. Both of these arcs have been there since WoK, and still need some payoff. The result could be that while killing is sometimes necessary, it should be avoided when possible -> seeking peace for Roshar. Leading is a Windrunner attribute and Kaladin is a great leader, so I think that the 5th ideal will almost certainly correspond to a big responsibility like that. Remember that almost nobody reaches the 5th ideal. It has to be something big and unique, like "becoming law" as a Skybreaker. Furthermore, the last two ideals were already about personal growth. Anyway, since I think that is the direction Sanderson is taking, I cannot imagine the Shard of War. In this sense i agree with you. 

But I also do not think that the two combining to Justice is the answer. To see the answer, I think we need to look at Kaladin's arc in RoW: He has great passion and love for those close to him, which should represent the "positive" side of Odium, but he also embodies Honor like nobody else. Remember that even when Odium tries to claim him (most desperate move I've ever seen tbh) Honor's true surge Adhesion still works. In that moment, he in a way already embodies a mix between these two shards. 

I don't know what it would be called, but I think the "true" combination of Honor and Odium, if this is indeed the endgame, would look a lot like Kaladin in RoW. To be honest, I think we only reason some people like the idea of a shard of War is that it would somewhat fit Dalinar's character. But it does not actually make sense in the bigger picture, at least not to me. 

Hi! 

Ich kann tatsächlich ein bisschen weiterhelfen: Mir wurde das erste Buch (bzw. das halbe erste, im Deutschen wurde ja jedes Buch in zwei geteilt) auf Deutsch zu Weihnachten geschenkt. Alles weitere habe ich dann aber auf Englisch gekauft, weil es einfach günstiger ist. Jedenfalls kenne ich deshalb ein paar Begriffe:

Parshendi/Parshmen= Parschendi/Parscher

Highprince= Großprinz

Knights Radiant = Strahlende Ritter (hier hört sich das englische iwie besser an, obwohl es eine wörtliche Übersetzung ist..)

Heralds = Herolde

Windrunner = Windläufer

Lashing = Peitschen

Shardblade = Splitterklinge

Shardplate = Splitterpanzer 

Shattered Plains = Zerbrochene Ebenen

Soulcaster = Seelengießer

Spren = Sprengsel (?) 

Namen sind eigentlich alle gleich, aber aus Shallan und Shalash wurden Schallan und Schalasch gemacht. Shinovar hat auch das zusätzliche c bekommen. 

An mehr kann ich mich jetzt spontan nicht erinnern. 

I don't know how unpopular this opinon actually is, I guess I'll see from the response i get  

In Dalinar's 3rd oath he says he will "take responsibility for what I have done" and "stand up each time a better man". It was an epic ending to his Oathbringer arc. But while reading Rhythm of War, I dont think he actually does that. 

In his argument with Adolin he says: "I merely want you to be the best man you can be. A better man than I was at your age. I know that's the person you really are." (p.317) With that he is implying that right now Adolin isn't acting like a better person than he was at the time. That sentence actually made my blood boil, despite me loving Dalinar's character since book 1. That he has the audacity to compare his slaughtering of thousands of innocents to Adolin killing Sadeas really shocked me. It is not only extremely unfair to his son, but also massively playing down his own crimes. And then he constantly judges him for his clothing choices for absolutely no reason. My opinion is that rather than taking responsibility for his past, he just constantly dismisses it with "yes, but im better now", while holding others to impossible standards at the same time. 

 After Oathbringer, I really liked Dalinar's redemption arc, and I still do to a large extent. He truly is a better person now. But he is also still, as much as I love him, a judgmental and self-righteous (benevolent) tyrant. And yes, tyranny is the best way to describe his way of leading. He just expects/demands of everyone, even his inner circle, to do as they are told. Compare that to Kaladin, who is actually walking down Nohadon's path in The Way of Kings. Dalinar tries, but can't overcome his internalized elitism. The biggest character flaw Dalinar hasn't (and I dont think ever will) overcome is his hunger for power. Sadeas of all people correctly identifies it, saying Dalinar "never really trusts anyone to do the job" (dont know the page, one of his WoR POVs) I think this character flaw will lead to a big win for Todium in book 5, it has always been hinted at but never really resulted in consequences before. 

The point of all this is not to bash Dalinar. I love the guy. He did become a much better, maybe even a good man. But he just isn't fit to be in a position of power. It was a necessary evil at first, but now it's time for him to step back. Maybe Kaladin can start to fill his role, now that he is on a path to being better. If not Kaladin, there will be others. 

Edit: Actually, I have another one: In the Jasnah/Wit/Ruthar scene, I shockingly found the former two to be incredibly embarrassing. The scene felt incredibly forced to me, probably the worst I can remember across all four Stormlight books. Wit's insults didnt work at all for me. Very surprising, since I really like both Jasnah and Wit throughout the first three books. (Though to me it seems that Jasnah has become less empathic over time) 

Now, I do not mean this in a romantic way, but ever since the first book I've felt that Shallan and Jasnah actually have pretty good chemistry and are also good for each other. Jasnah, although Shallan's worshipping of her is sometimes a little much, can be a great anchor for her. I really loved that flashback in WoR where young Shallan was reading her work. On the other side, Shallan is one of the very few characters we see Jasnah be vulnerable with. Thinking about it, Shallan must have really charmed Jasnah to take her on as ward in the first place. We know from their interactions on the ship how pressured Jasnah felt about the whole Voidbringer situation and taking on a new student would surely seem like a waste of time to her.   

They clearly care about each other and have very good dialogue most of the time, personally I would love to have more scenes of their relationship! 

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

It is things like this that makes me think Kaladin is destined to either ascend (although Odium says Dalinar speaks on behalf of Honor) or take Jezrien's place. This would in a sense allow Dalinar and Kaladin to keep their current relationship. Dalinar as the supreme general and Kaladin as his best Soldier. But then again, in RoW we see Dalinar placing his trust in Kaladin, and I can see Kaladin outgrowing so to speak Dalinar's mentorship. Sorta how Vyn outgrew Kelsier's mentorship.

IF anyone ascends, Kaladin is the obvious choice. Especially after RoW, where there was so much religious faith in him. 

Dont forget that the Windrunner, Jezrien, was leader of the Heralds. I personally think that the Dalinar and Kaladin relationship needs to change. It is still ultimately based on the terrible Vorin caste system. Even from book 1 it was clear to me that Kaladin is the much more natural leader. We saw that in the Battle of the Tower IMO, where he basically took charge of the entire retreat, easily getting Lighteyes to follow his orders. We saw that in the way he took over Bridge Four. We saw that in the way he took over the Wall Guard. We see that in the way humans look up to him in Rhythm of War. I love Dalinar as much as anyone, but a lot of his authority always came from his rank. We saw how he struggled at uniting the Highprinces behind him (granted, that was not an easy task, but neither was what Kal did to Bridge 4). My personal opinion is that over time their positions need to flip, where Dalinar takes on more of a consulting role with Kaladin as the number 1. Dalinar also has a problem with clinging to power, as Sadeas has observed and sometimes exploited in the first two books. This is another reason why he should not be the leader of the Knights Radiant. ( I still love him) It is also a thing of how Kaladin always saw himself as serving his men, similar to how it's described in The Way of Kings (the canon book). 

Probably not the first one to make a thread like this, but in my opinion it would be a lot better to just keep Dalinar, Kaladin and maybe Shallan as the main characters for the entire series. Instead of having 10 different ones. The biggest reason why I fell in love with the series was not the worldbuilding (though for some reason I find the Heralds very intriguing) but the way these amazing character handled increasingly tough situations. I loved the way Kaladin gained the loyalty of Bridge Four and led them out of slavery. And I loved the way Dalinar did his best to understand his visions and live his idealism while having to deal with the disgusting Alethi elite. (also being quite bad at politics) I loved everything having to do with Adolin, especially when he starts detesting said Alethi elite more and more throughout the first two books. Even Shallan is a character I care about. ( particularly during/after Words of Radiance, where her chapters were pretty good) 

I just don't see why they should play a less important role in the last five books. These guys are awesome and I want to see them win. I do trust Sanderson, but in my opinion Rhythm of War and even Oathbringer already suffered from Dalinar (in RoW) and Kaladin (in Oathbringer) taking a backseat. The main characters were what hooked me to the series in WoK, them becoming less important takes away a large part of what makes the SA great. Characters like Jasnah just aren't on the same level yet. Furthermore, the story and world is complex enough as it is, having so many different PoVs only makes the plot less stringent. 

I am very curious whether other readers share my concerns  

16 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

I noticed this and this is what makes me think that Kaladin will die in a blaze of glory and be remembered as a legend or almost like a myth. I feel like he's destined to become a Rosharan patron saint of the downtrodden, soldiers on the battlefield and the mentally ill. 

We've seen this trend in some of Sandersons other work where characters we love who die become the centre of a religion, or almost mythological. I feel like this is Sandersons way of keeping them alive in the Cosmere for the fans who love the characters so even centuries later they are still involved in the Cosmere long after they are dust. 

Imagine reading the Mistborn era 4 and a character does something ridiculous and doesn't die and  somebody says "By Stormblessed's nuts"

Perhaps you are right. But wouldnt such a death make a lot more sense if it happened in RoW? 

I dont know how you feel about it, but to me it would be extremely unsatisfying to see Kal just die after he finally made some progress at the end of RoW. Idk i think it would just be bad writing to have such a large arc about his mental health with almost no reward.

A sacrificial death would be the absolute worst way to end his story in my opinion. 

In RoW there was a lot of almost religious rhetoric concerning Kaladin, not only from the humans in Urithiru, but even from Moash ("the only hand that can kill Kaladin Stormblessed is his own"). I dont have any other specific quotes right now, but to me it felt a lot like he was seen as some sort of divine being. Killing him off would make absolutely 0 sense after his book 4 arc. For these reasons i can certainly see him becoming a Herald, basically taking on Jezrien's role.. the only issue i have with it is that his mental state doesnt seem stable enough (yet) to take on this burden. 

Adolin i think would be a great candidate, same for Jasnah. With regards to Shallan i see a similar problem to Kaladin. Being a Herald is a huge burden, and I can't (at least right now) see these characters endure the torture and agony that come with it 

The StormFaker theory makes a lot of sense imo. I cant really imagine it being Paliah though, just because she hasn't had any appearances yet.. I feel if she was actively involved in current events (like Nale and Ishar are) we would have seen her at one point. 

A point in favor of it being Ishar is his refusal to work with Dalinar: Im pretty sure he accuses him of being Odium's champion at one point. It seemed crazy to me at first, but if the "Stormfather" here was actually Ishar it makes a bit more sense: He would have known Gavilar's true intentions and his greed for power. Putting together his brother's traits with Dalinar's war crimes, he would seem like a perfect candidate for Odium's champion. (at least in Ishar's crazy mind) 

And you mention the Stormfather knowing about Ishar: what if he decided to keep tabs on (just) this particular herald simply because he impersonated him in the past? 

Interesting observation! I am always amazed at the people who find these small details. 

I am really curious to see if that is the real stormfather, and if it is, why he chose Gavilar. Even more weird was the whole thing about Gavilar becoming a Herald, it doesnt exactly fit with Dalinar's journey so far.

When it comes to Gavilar himself, i like that he is much more clueless than originally thought. Throughout the books everyone portrayed him as some kind of genius (including himself), and he was one, in a way, but at the end of the day he is still a human. It was impossible for him to truly understand the situation. He fell victim to his own arrogance and megalomania and i would personally like to know more about his last years.   

In general, it seems like the heralds will play a very important role in book 5..