ElectrumSavant

Approved Edit: As of now, @Negative_Null and @Chinkoln have not posted in two weeks and are therefore Inactive. This status is removed if/when they post again. As a result, the Senate is now comprised of 6 Houses, with a simple majority for the Chancellory election needing 4 Houses. Therefore, @Illwei of House Relidan is now Chancellor. As Chancellor, Illwei is advised to create a PM when possible for the Senate. A 2/3 majority in the Senate now takes 4 votes, while a 3/4 majority requires 5. Proposal Suggestions: Because right now Illwei is both the High Prelan and the Chancellor, how about we make it so that someone who holds both roles at once is called the Lord Prelan (title of the leader of the Steel Ministry in the books) Something to spice up Clubs (Rule 509) and make them desirable to be a part of Some further RP elements? Rework of the Inquisitor Either more starting Atium for referred players and those who refer them, or a higher starting Atium amount for all new players

Yep. It's a part of Rule 101, the Sliver of Infinity Act. Approved. For clarity, when I Abstain a proposal I will color my response blue. Approved. I will call these Atium charges "Youth" to make it more clear. Edit: Somehow I missed @Doomstick's Rule of Standard Fines the first time. It is Approved.

The Chancellory Election Illwei now has 4 votes for Chancellor (Illwei, Doomstick, Kings_way, and Mist). Illwei only needs one more vote to become Chancellor. Danex has officially voiced disapproval of Illwei becoming Chancellor, but has not voted for anyone else (no one besides Illwei has announced their candidacy). @Chinkoln and @SirWolfe are the only people who have not made a public vote in the Chancellory election. Some Rule Change Suggestions: A fourth status that the LR can put rule changes into (besides Approved, Rejected, and Pending). Something along the lines of "Passed" or "Ignored" or "Abstained". In this fourth status, the proposed rule change has been officially ignored by the LR and so the LR will not make any decision about it. However, if the officially ignored rule change is seconded then the Senate can still vote on the rule change with a 2/3 majority instead of the 3/4 majority usually required to change the LR's decision. In effect, by passing the LR is turning the decision over to the Senate. The proposer doesn't gain or lose Atium from an ignored proposal. A full rework of the Inquisitor role (which is currently vacant) A law clarifying what happens if the LR breaks a rule. I've never been Called to Judgment, but in theory, it can happen. But, the LR cannot gain or lose Atium. So, what happens? Does everyone else gain that much Atium? Should the LR have some kind of "Respect" points that goes up when he/she makes decisions on rule changes and goes down when he/she breaks a rule? Or does the LR just look at the mirror and go, "Shame on you, Lord Ruler!" Some established fines for breaking rules. It would make my job easier if there was a specific rule detailing the standard fine for breaking a rule.

Some notes and housekeeping: @Channelknight Fadran, @Furamirionind, and @The_Truthwatcher have not posted in the thread in two weeks and as a result are now Inactive per The Activated Activity Act Regarding Player Activity, Now Active. As such, they are not to be counted for purposes of the Senate and do not need to be included in the census. They will become Active again if they post again in the thread. I am revoking the title of Inquisitor from The_Truthwatcher. If anyone wants the title of Inquisitor (it is mostly useless right now, but I am open to suggestions for changing its abilities), they may volunteer for the position. @Negative_Null has not mined Atium for the last 5 pages, and so per the Hathsin Act is no longer the Favored House. I will keep my eyes out for the next person who makes a really good proposal. @Illwei of House Relidan has three votes for Chancellor (from Illwei, Doomstick, and Kings_way). There are 8 Active Noble Houses, meaning Illwei still needs two votes if he wants a majority. Doomstick has withdrawn his application, meaning that right now Illwei is the only candidate running for Chancellor. The Senate has 8 Houses, so a 2/3 vote to pass or reject a rule change that has not yet been reviewed by the LR takes 6 votes. A 3/4 vote to overrule the LR's decision on a rule change also takes 6 votes.

10 Atium per clarification, 5 Atium per new Rule name Approved. So, once posted in the Senate PM by the Chancellor, a seconded rule change is available to vote on for 48 hours. After 48 hours pass, anyone may post in the Senate PM that the vote is over. The total needed for the 2/3 majority is based on the number of people who voted in between the time that the rule was posted in the Senate PM and the time that someone announced that the vote was over. After that point, the Chancellor reports on the passed or rejected proposal in the main thread. This was @Doomstick's proposal. These are both Rejected. If the various roles had more power I might consider this, but as is none of the roles are powerful enough that removing them from the Senate seems necessary. Approved. Terminology is very welcome. Approved. To clarify, this is for SPECIFIC INSTANCES of an infraction. If you break a rule twice, someone has you Brought to Trial for one of those instances, and it is settled Out of Court, you can still be brought to trial for the other instance. Rejected. Sorry, but it seems unnecessarily difficult to manage.

I have established in the past that if a charge is dropped, regardless of the reason, then it no longer requires an official Judgment. So I'm fine with bribery to remove a Call for Judgment. The scheming is thematic, which I like. To be clear, though, if I had answered the Judgment before it was officially retracted, it would have been too late to retract it. Judgment You're right that the mistake did occur at one point, and there is evidence to prove it. However, because the mistake was fixed before the Call for Judgment, then the defendant was no longer actively violating a rule. I find the defendant innocent, and per Rule 403 Doomstick of House Wafre is fined 8 Atium, the fine for a rejected proposal. Judgment Doomstick's argument is sound. His proposed rule changes were supposed to be listed in the Census per Rule 201. A standard fine is about 5 Atium, and Illwei is High Prelan, making the total penalty 10 Atium taken from Illwei. 5 Atium is awarded to Doomstick per the Compensation Act. All three of @Illwei's clarifications/rule names are accepted. Accepted. Accepted. @Doomstick, I'm still considering your amended Rule of Voting Period.

Just to clarify, let me do some background: A while ago, there were two different proposals that suggested the creation of a legislative body called the "Senate". The first, by Danex, proposed a Senate made up of all players without a role, that could overturn the LR's decision with a unanimous vote. The second, by Negative_Null, proposed a Senate made up of all players with a positive amount of Atium, with that could pass a rule change with a 3/4 vote. I shall term these the Ightejyw Plan and the Tellen Plan. Under the Ightejyw Plan, roles were not allowed to participate in the Senate. But in the Tellen Plan, having a role meant that you earned an extra vote in the Senate. I approved the Tellen Plan and not the Ightejyw Plan. Over time, the rule that gave an extra vote to players with roles was removed, and the 3/4 vote was reduced to a 2/3 vote, but at its core it remains the Tellen Plan. As a result, Houses Relidan, Soliel, Tellen, and Mist are all in the Senate. TL;DR @Danex It was a thing in the original proposal that the Senate was just for players originally in the Senate, but that wasn't the proposal that ended up getting accepted.

Rejected. I don't think that a time limit is necessarily a bad idea. My main problem with this is that 24 hours seems too short a time limit. While I don't want votes to take forever, I also don't want proposals to be rammed through by a small group because the other people didn't check in once every day. I'm very hesitant to delegate judicial powers to someone else. Having the Inquisitor act as a judge is fine, but I would want very specific limits on the Inquisitor's judicial power: things like being unable to rule on cases involving the Lord Ruler, the Inquisitor not having the power of Judicial Review, a process where people can appeal their judgment to the Lord Ruler, etc. If we didn't have very specific rules on the Inquisitor's judicial powers, then theoretically the Inquisitor could just pass Judgment awarding himself 1,024 Atium and win the game automatically. Remember, what currently balances the Lord Ruler having judgment abilities is that the Lord Ruler can't have Atium and can't win the game. An Inquisitor does not currently have such restrictions. Approved. It could be argued that the Senate already had this power, since the Senate can pass proposals, and there is no rule against a proposal that specifically appoints a role to a specific individual. Alright, @Doomstick. I accept that further clarification would be useful. I'm going to clarify the rules so that in cases that apply to both proposals and amendments, the group term "rule changes" is used instead. That counts up to... 10 different rule clarifications. That means that you earn 100 Atium total from this clarification. Another note: As yet, although there are existing rules for the role of a Chancellor (Rule 306, the Penrod Act) who would manage the Senate PM, but the Senate has not yet chosen a Chancellor. As the Lord Ruler, I am barred from selecting this role- only the Senate can do this. So far Illwei of House Relidan is the only person who has volunteered for the role, but becoming Chancellor requires being chosen "via the Houses' votes". I'm interpreting this to mean a simple majority vote. So the first person who can get a simple majority of the other Houses to publicly approve them as Chancellor will become the Chancellor, unless the rules change. You can approve multiple people at the same time, but you can't vote for a single person more than once. It's similar to the selection of a Prime Minister.

Accepted. Welcome to the Final Empire, SirWolfe of House Aot! Accepted. If any player ever wants to leave the game permanently, I strongly suggest that they officially withdraw in this way rather than just waiting for us to figure out that they are do @Doomstick I've selected 16 of your law names. I'm awarding 5 Atium per name, so that is a total reward of 80 Atium.

Regarding Shallan's big secret, the massive, horrible secret that she won't even allow herself to think about and is somehow worse than killing both of her parents- here are some ridiculous theories I thought of that are definitely incorrect. Shallan is the true heir of Jah Keved Shallan is the Survival Shard in deep cover Shallan formed a nahel bond with another spren before Pattern, but she broke that bond and killed the spren in the process Shallan is actually a complicated automaton powered by fabrials Shallan was taken by her parents to see the Nightwatcher, and wished for something horrible Shallan is actually a man Shallan is a worldhopper from Ashyn Shallan is Hoid's daughter Shallan is the Sibling in disguise Shallan is Adolin's half-sister Shallan is Trell (Stormlight comes before Mistborn Era 2, remember) Shallan isn't actually Vorin Shallan used a hemalurgic spike to steal Pattern's bond from the person who he was actually meant to bond Shallan is a Sleepless (Dysian Aimian) Shallan is a Returned feeding subconsciously on Stormlight

Accepted. This is a clarification worth 10 Atium. These are proposals for new rules. Per Rule 009, they must be given a name in order to be considered.

Rejected. The word "proposal" in the laws can apply to both a Proposal and an Amendment; if we needed to say "proposals and amendments" in order to get the point across then we would have to rewrite most of the laws relating to proposals/amendments. As this was a clarification, you lose no Atium. Accepted. By way of reminder, that is currently 8 Atium. Accepted. I'm most likely going to go at a rate of 50%, rounded down, like the Inquisitor receives. I would encourage people to come up with a rework of how the Inquisitor works, since now anyone can call out the High Prelan. Accepted. I'm not going to name all the rules right now, but I will within the next couple of days. People are free to suggest names, and when I finally name all of the rules I will award somewhere around 2-5 Atium per suggested name that I pick. Rejected. I do appreciate it when people reference what law they are Amending in their proposal, but in the case of Proposals (which have no number yet) it seems like it would get hard for proposers to manage. Accepted. If you're looking for a more Scadrial-ish name, perhaps the Chancellor? That was the role of the person who presided over the Assembly in absence of the king in Mistborn book 2. Accepted. This seems like it would be useful, and prevent both the votes cluttering up the thread and the thread cluttering up the votes. I'm a bit confused about this rule. Is it saying that it is assumed that the person who proposed a law supports the law, or that the proposer of a law is not counted for the purposes of the 2/3 majority vote? Accepted. Again, though, might I suggest that the Inquisitor be given some new powers/responsibilities, as now the role is pretty much just a title.

Do you know any words with multiple letters that are homophones with an individual letter? You want to know why I did it? Well, I'll have you know that blue is my favorite color.

Granted. You're told from the beginning that one of them is poisoned, but not told which one. I wish for the ability to know when people are telling the truth.

Judgment It's never been officially brought up, but this is the exact reason that Rule 202 exists. The High Prelan has the ability to rewrite proposals in whatever way he/she sees fit as long as it doesn't change the inherent meaning of the rule. Numbering conventions don't change anything about the meaning of a rule, so it is completely within the High Prelan's prerogative to number the rules (or not number them) however he/she likes. Accepted. This is a clarification and so worth 10 Atium. Rejected. I still think that it is unnecessarily complicated and difficult to implement fairly.

First, page 8. Accepted. Accepted. I like the proposal, my only issue is with the Mistborn part. It seems like it would be hard to manage the Mistborn's 20% chance, since the Shard has no built-in probability system, so we would have to call in the Obligator... I think that it would work better if you could hire a Kandra yourself to cancel out the other Kandra, at full price but with a 100% certainty of success (although with the understanding that you would then be vulnerable to future Kandra for the next 5 Senate votes). Rejected. The rules already make clear how a "Noble" house is different from a "Skaa" house. As this was a clarification, not a proposal, you lose no Atium. I like this proposal in that it works to prevent people from joining the game and leaving, and in doing so making it harder than intended for anything to go through the Senate. But I don't like the 24 hours restriction. I think that this goal- making it so that people in the Senate actually have to be involved- would be better met either through reducing the amount of time it takes for someone's player status to become Inactive (Rule 008); or with a rule that said that members of the Senate only had a limited amount of time to make their vote known before a tally was taken of all the Senators who voted on a proposal, and the rule was Accepted or Rejected based on the Senators who actually voted. Perhaps "Factions", to represent how the Houses form up into different groups and alliances during Mistborn 1's House War? Factions could establish some mutual defense agreements in advance, like having their Mistborn automatically defend each other from attacks, and maybe would get access to one extra Mistborn or something else to make a Faction desirable. Or we could change it a bit and make them "Dominances", where you can pay a good amount of Atium to found/conquer/discover a Dominance and have your House become the leader of that Dominance (no idea what the name is for the leader of a Dominance. Governor? High Lord? King? General?). Other Houses could move to an existing Dominance for a much lower cost, but wouldn't be in charge unless they did some kind of coup. There would have to be some kind of benefit to being in charge of a Dominance (maybe an extra Senate vote?), and either a maximum number of Dominances or a high cost to prevent everyone from just making their own Dominance.

Approved. This is a rule change, and so worth 16 Atium Approved. This is a clarification, and so worth 10 Atium. Rejected. Not because it was wrong, but because now there isn't a Rule 206. This was a clarification, so has no Atium loss. Proposal Suggestions: Reducing Rule 302 from a 3/4 vote to a majority vote for the Senate to pass a law Adding a rule to allow the Senate to overrule an Approval or Rejection by the LR, possibly with a 3/4 vote Something involving kandra?

Approved. I have fond feelings toward good old Rule 601, but as time has gone on it feels more and more out of place next to the other Game Rules. The game seems to be taking more of a thematic House vs House tone, and a rule that only serves to penalize people who forget to include a picture of an animal seems to detract from that theme. Judgment Mist's post is indeed lacking an animal drawing/representation/photo. Per Rule 402, Mist gets fined a double amount than the standard penalty for this offense, making the total penalty 6 Atium. Let the executions begin. Approved. Additional clarity is helpful. This actually adds a new rule as part of the clarification, so is worth a full 16 Atium. Approved. This is a rewording of a law for the offered bounty, so is worth 10 Atium. Approved. This is a new rule, so is worth 16 Atium. Approved. This is a rewording of a rule, so is worth 10 Atium. Approved. This is a rewording, so gets 10 Atium. Judgment Fortunately, Rule 601 is being removed, so we won't have to get into the "do humans count as animals" dilemma again after this case. In the history of the Final Empire, no one has ever attempted to fulfill Rule 601 with an image of a human. No one has ever implied that such a thing was reasonable. Nevertheless, technically speaking, humans... are... animals. Ugh. I hate having to say this, because I'm pretty sure we all understood the rule to apply to non-human animals, but technically speaking, if this law was meant to exclude humans then it should have included wording to that effect. So, Matrim's Dice of House Ethorris is not in violation of Rule 601. Note to everyone: I won't be on the Shard tomorrow on Sunday, so don't expect any quick responses.

I appoint you Obligator. Don't worry- playing this game doesn't have to be anyone's full-time job. I expect that the game is going to slow down somewhat next week. Accepted. Accepted. Accepted. Good catch. Since I accepted Illwei's proposal earlier, there isn't a need for this specifically. Accepted. Note that under the renumbered laws, this is now Rule 103. Accepted. Rejected. If two weeks have passed without the Lord Ruler contributing, I don't want to delay things any further than necessary to anyone still interested in the game. Remember, under the current rules, it says "if the Lord Ruler was not the last person to post". That means that if anyone else posted on the thread in the time in between the Lord Ruler's absence and a new Lord Ruler being selected, the old Lord Ruler would not be the last person to post. Accepted. Note that this is now Rule 505. This has already been done earlier in the post, per Illwei's proposal. Note that Rule 114 is now Rule 206.

I have now reorganized and renumbered all of the laws. Here was the original list of laws before the reorganization. I am also now offering a 10 Atium bounty to anyone who can help me combine, clarify, and simplify the different laws while preserving their intent (that's 10 Atium per law). If you notice two laws that handle the same thing, post a revised law that covers both of them clearly and I will give you the Atium bounty.

Welcome to the Final Empire, Kings_way of House Hollow! As you were referred, you and Chinkoln get a free 20 Atium to start with. This is already the case, as a result of Truthwatcher's earlier proposal. I could certainly get behind a bigger rehaul of how the Obligator/Inquisitor system works. The Inquisitor, for instance, don't have that much to do at present other than hope that the Obligator makes a mistake. I'm not sure about taking away the ability to make proposals, but perhaps some tweaking of the way the Senate works... Regardless, new ideas are welcome, and I invite people to offer suggestions for how to improve the current roles, even if you don't have a solid proposal worked out yet. Accepted. I'm accepting both of these proposals (so Doomstick and Danex both get 16 Atium). All of the responsibilities/powers that used to belong to the position of "Obligator" are now held by the "High Prelan". A new position is created to match Danex's old proposal here, called "Obligator". There can be multiple Obligators, but only one High Prelan. As such, @Illwei is now the High Prelan. We don't have an Obligator at present, so anyone who wants the job can now volunteer.

Accepted. Further thoughts about the rejection penalty are explained later in the post. Rejected. The Inquisitor's job is to point out errors with the Obligator's Census. I'm willing to decrease some of the harsher penalties for an Obligator making mistakes, like the automatic role revocation after two mistakes. But I don't want to discourage the Inquisitor from doing his job. Accepted. It does seem like it's gone farther than necessary, and it is just getting more complicated as time goes on. Rejected. It is often difficult to determine whether words are part of a proposal or not. This was already getting to be a bit of a problem with the old per-line system, and I think that making it per word would further exacerbate the issue. A flat rate isn't perfect, but I think that it is simpler than the other two options we have considered this far. Regarding @Danex's earlier proposal about bets being done through the Obligator, I'm having trouble linking to it and so wasn't able to in this post. Regardless, I think that the proposal would be better served if it were a new role, rather than just piling more responsibility on the Obligator. I'm not going to outright reject it right now, but would encourage some rewriting.

Now for page 7. Let's go. Accepted. Accepted. Might I ask that if such proposals are accepted, the second of the two to approve the proposal please list the approval in Green and get my attention with an @. Also note that pay increases can't be gained in this way, as that isn't a 'duty' of the Inquisitors or Obligator. Rejected. Might I point out that the difference between a Skaa and a Noble is that Skaa have negative Atium, so there would be nothing to gain from assassinating them. Also, per Rule 203, just because a Noble hasn't named their House doesn't mean that they aren't part of a House. Rejected. While I like the added flavor, I really need the administrative help that the established roles provide, and I worry that assassinations would make it impossible for the new Obligators or Inquisitors to keep straight who has what. Approved. You have a point. Approved. Hopefully, the stability will make things more clear. However, because there is now a greater reward from getting proposals accepted (a whopping 16 Atium), we might want to increase the penalty for getting proposals rejected (perhaps as much as 10 Atium?).

Alright, first I'm doing page 6's proposals. Approved. I guess that this is kind of an "unwritten rule", since all posts are on the Shard, but it is good to have it written down. No posts should violate the 17 Shard Code of Conduct. Accepted. Any future Lord Rulers should note that it is vital to find a public way to keep all of the game rules together. Right now I can update the first post of the topic, but if someone else became Lord Ruler then we might need a Google doc or something. Just something to think about. Rejected. I'm worried about being Called For Judgment on this and having to figure out what "Ridiculed, Fined, and Shunned" means in an official sense. Accepted. Rejected. Seeing as a single page takes up 25 posts, a limit of 5 posts per page seems a bit uncomfortably small. I might accept this if it were 10 posts per page. Might I point out that the proposer of this law, @Illwei, posted 9 times on page 6, and as Obligator also stands to benefit from each page that turns. Approved. I appreciate the built-in fine. I would accept this, but I need the added clarification: if the player amount decreases, do the combined Houses have to split back up, or can they stay together? Accepted, this will hopefully make it a lot easier for me to see when someone wants Judgment. Accepted. So, to be clear, if two people have similar ideas then there isn't anything stopping them from both submitting a proposal. This law is meant to make it so that players can collaborate on a single proposal if they want to. I think that this is a good idea; it seems like it would be a fun way to add some minigames and have people actually start placing bets. My only concern is that it seems that there is a lot already on our Obligator's plate. Illwei, would you be up for this, or would you prefer that some kind of new, separate role be created to handle bets?