Publius
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@Frustration It's an interesting video but I don't see how the Leidenfrost effect is applicable to Marasi and air friction.
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This is a bit tricky. Moving at Mach 17.62, even for a short distance, should cause a lot of friction, and therefore heat - I think. However, during the course of like 20 minutes or so of googling and reading various things last night, I was not able to find useful information to inform myself about how fast air friction would begin to cause heat and how much heat would be caused. My gut tells me that even though she moved a very short distance, moving fast enough to leave an air vacuum should have produced a non-trivial amount of heat friction. If any scientifically minded users can chime in on this (such as @therunner), I'd love to hear from you. You briefly touched on it here, especially when you mentioned the clothing. The inference appears to be that you would have expected there to be significant heat, such that we should have seen damage to her clothing from it?
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@therunner I was a bit nervous when I made that part of my post about the Newtons, precisely because I was worried I was doing it incorrectly, so I have no issue whatsoever with your corrections. In fact, I welcome them! I appreciate and enjoy your attentiveness to detail.
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The Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest aircraft that we've ever created, clocking in around Mach 3.2. Marasi has already doubled that, as per your conservative estimate of Mach 7~. Marasi did not replenish her available speed by storing, she did not compound, and we do not know how much she had to begin with. She did not experience any deleterious effects, whatsoever, when moving at Mach 17.62. If you want to assert that the Metallic Artists can't reach impressive multiples of Mach speed, I'm open to that - but I don't think there's much standing in the way, given the raw speed of C-Steel and the mitigating assistance from C-Gold, F-Brass, etc. I welcome further debate on this topic. In order to give this some practical application to this speed... The Barrett M82 has a muzzle velocity of 853 m / s and the largest .50 BMG is 800 grams. Mach 17.62 works out to 6043.66 m / s. A .50 BMG weighing 800 grams, traveling at the Barrett M82's muzzle velocity of 853 m / s, is 705.6 Newtons of force. A 10 kilogram metal sphere thrown at a velocity of 3,430 m / s, or Mach 10, is 34,300 Newtons of force. In other words, that thrown metal sphere would have almost 50 times (actually 48.11...) as much force as a bullet from the proverbial fifty caliber sniper rifle. Dare I say that our hypothetical Shardplate has it's work cut out for it?
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If anything, C-Steel should be far more potent than this thread has, as of yet, given it credit for. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/305/#e8085 tells us that you could get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel. speed of light = 299,792,458 m / s speed of sound = 343 m / s In other words, the speed of light is 874,030.489796 times the speed of sound (299,792,458 / 343), or Mach 874,030. How close is "close" to the speed of light? Well, let's look at some numbers: 1/2 or 50% = Mach 437,015 1/4 or 25% = Mach 218,507 1/10 or 10% = Mach 87,403 1/100 or 1% = Mach 8,740 1/1,000 or 0.1% = Mach 874 1/10,000 or 0.01% = Mach 87 Even a very conservative reading of "close" is many times more than any of the numbers thrown around in here. For emphasis, here is the relevant WoB excerpt again: You could get close Although air resistance poses difficulties in the form of air resistance and heat, we know for a fact, as per Brandon, that it is possible to get close to the speed of light, with C-Steel. As for surviving the effects of air resistance? F-Brass can deal with heat. C-Gold can heal, among other things... point-blank dynamite, decapitation, Hemalurgical Spiking, and death (Waxillium). It should have no issue restoring tissue damage from heat, broken bones from air resistance, or whatever else might arise.
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Applying this WoB to what you suggest: "you become immune to the effects of the ability only." Tapping heat would only make you immune to the effects of the heat that you tapped, it is not a magic bullet for solving all heat-related problems from other sources. The takeaway is that tapping heat won't light you on fire, but it also won't protect you from burning up due to air friction. "Growing colder, however, would be more helpful in this regard." Tapping heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with low body temperatures caused by being in a cold environment, as demonstrated in The Bands of Mourning... Logical inference and this WoB tells us that... Storing heat is how F-Bronze helps you deal with high body temperatures such as those caused by air friction. Otherwise, our erstwhile heroes in Bands of Mourning would not tap heat to deal with cold environments. They would store heat. However, we demonstrably observe them tapping heat in order to deal with cold environments.
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No, you've got it backwards. 1. Storing heat cools you down 2. Tapping heat heats you up Since Marasi was not storing, she necessarily was not capable of cooling herself off.
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But she was not storing anything, such as Heat via F-Bronze. Marasi did not experience problematic heat despite moving at your estimated Mach 7. She didn't even comment on becoming uncomfortably warm. In fact, she said nothing, whatsoever, about heat.
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What, precisely, does make someone worthy of Bondsmith powers? As seen in RoW's Part 1 Epigraphs, Navani attempted to get the various human factions to come together (uniting?) in order to share technological information and assist one another in the development of further technology. As we see later on in RoW, Navani successfully convinced them to share the secret of how to quickly transfer light between Gems. Navani was willing to work with Raboniel (uniting), despite their differences and status as enemies. A human displaying the willingness to discuss, learn from, get to know, and collaborate with a Fused is a rare thing. Throughout RoW, Navani demonstrates her willingness to reach out to disparate human factions as well as a fused. Textually, she is quite literally serving the role of an emulsifier. I would be interested in hearing about the ways in which you think Dalinar was worthy, while Navani was apparently unworthy.
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A & F Pewter strength can help overcome resistance and, as I noted in an edit to my previous post, F-Bronze could assist in avoiding the deleterious effects of heat. F-Gold can also heal from the negative effects thereof. Finally, WoBs can say anything they like, but Marasi noted absolutely nothing in the way of heating up due to her speed or having to deal with wind resistance. I'll be far more inclined to worry about air friction if it actually makes it into the books when Metallic Artists go fast.
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The heat and friction are easily solvable. 1. Store heat with F-Brass. 2. As @BenduLuke suggested, wear appropriate protective clothing/armor. Edit: Alternative means: Acknowledge that you might become a human torch while dabbing on the proverbial tortoise-shelled-Rosharan-slowpokes and Heal yourself with F-Gold.
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The devastation of Ashyn involved a Dawnshard and I think we've already conceded that if Ishar was given a Dawnshard he stands a very good chance of singlehandedly devastating Scadrial. Without a Dawnshard, I am highly skeptical that Radiants would be capable of such feats without a Dawnshard amping them up. Rysn swore that she would not bond a truespren. If Rysn became a Radiant, she would immediately be in violation of an Oath, which would probably kill her spren right then and there. If anyone wants to seriously propose the Dawnshard be used in this conflict - just bear in mind that doing so probably requires that Rysn be killed in order for someone else to pick up her Dawnshard.
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I take that WoB to be referring to the actual conceptual creation or invention - in other words, when Harmony first made Ettmetal into an actual thing that could exist. I think the "laws of the realm" mean that this new element came about because Vessels have corresponding Godmetals, and Sazed happens to be holding two shards, thus he will result in a hybrid Godmetal.
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Do we actually know whether Harmony is actively or passiveliy providing the Ettmetal? e.g. if it is a Pits of Hathsin-esque process or if Sazed claps his hands and poofs some Ettmetal into existence? Comedic value of the latter example aside, I don't think we do. All we know for sure is that Sazed has provided the So-Scadrians with access to Ettmetal.
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Waxillium Ladrian is 41 years old, meaning that Harmony necessarily enabled him to use the Mists at some point within the past 41 years. In other words, Harmony has recently proven capable of granting access to the Mists. Taking the Stormfather off of Roshar would likely have grave consequences, including but not limited to: No more crem deposits No more Stormlight distribution - Rosharan fauna depend on crem and stormlight, iirc. Singers would lose access to the forms that they obtain by going into the Highstorm, and would only be able to change into forms they obtain by going into the Everstorm.
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Raysium didn't get into the hands of the Fused and the Ghostbloods, so that they could hand it off to Shallan, on its own. I think there's a pretty clear implication that Odium created some and made it available. Scadrians have access to Ettmetal, either passively or by Harmony deciding to up the quantity, and that should be more than enough to get the ball rolling on creating some Mistborn, Feruchemists, and Fullborns.
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Objection. Harmony is already providing Ettmetal. As per WoB, Ettmetal can be separated into Lerasium and Atium. Shardblades and Shardplate are nothing more or less than an alloy of Honor and Cultivation Godmetal. It is preposterous to suppose that Rosharan Shards get to provide their side with Godmetal while Scadrian Shards are forbidden this.
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@therunner A more comprehensive reply will come later, but for now I wish to address a few key points 1. Marasi was not compounding in order to increase her attribute stores. She was only tapping. The entire point of compounding is that you can create more of an attribute, in arbitrarily large quantities. 2. It occurs to me that spikes and medallions are, to some extent, non-optimal ways of going about this. Harmony can provide the Scadrians with Lerasium to directly create more Mistborn. Currently, he is capable providing Ettmetal. Ettmetal can be separated into Atium and Lerasium. We know that Ruin and/or Preservation were capable of creating Feruchemists in the first place, we simply don't know how. Harmony would know how. It's simply a matter of his willingness to do it himself or to divulge how to use Lerasium in order to do so, which should be assumed for the sake of this Scadrial v Roshar thought experiment. The point being - Mistborn can definitely be directly created via Lerasium, and Harmony is capable, somehow, of creating Feruchemists - be that through some kind of Lerasium application or by editing their spiritual DNA. 3. Simply shooting the Stormform Singers to death with long-range firearms mitigates a lot of hypothetical damage from arrows and/or lightning.
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All suppositions that F-Gold would leave scars in the soul are not only speculative, but outright contradictory to the text of the WoB. The WoB specifically indicates that a scar-like gap would occur if there was insufficient F-Gold healing, and that more F-Gold healing could fix it. The only barrier to this is if the donor began viewing themselves as someone who did not have the power in question. In this scenario, the donor knows that they had their power before, they know that whenever they are spiked they will immediately begin healing the damage, and they know that the intended outcome is for them to still have their power when the spiking process is completed - does anyone think they would plausibly view themselves as someone who does not have the power? Finally, if this supposition is true, how can Brandon plausibly say that Miles could be turned into a Spike Factory? Invested Spike Factory: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406-general-reddit-2020/#e14304/
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@Bigmikey357 as per the Wob, the soul would only have a scar-like gap if there was not enough F-Gold to completely heal it. Notably, Miles does not have any scars despite healing from countless gunshot wounds and sveral point-blank dynamite explosions. All indications are that F-Gold heals perfectly. Do you know of any textual support or WoB indicating that healing from F-Gold would leave behind scars or or other damage? Invested Spike Factory:
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We're necessarily including Godmetals if the Radiant is using a Shardblade - Shardblades are an alloy of Honor and Cultivation's respective Godmetals.
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I'm pretty sure you can't steal abilities given by a spike with another spike I agree that you can't spike a spike-granted-power. You misunderstood what I am suggesting, and I'll try to clarify: Hemalurgically Spike an Auger, to create an A-Gold Hemalurgical Spike. Hemalurgically Spike a Bloodmaker, to create an F-Gold Hemalurgical Spike. The "donors" in 1 and 2 are now dead, and we don't need them for the rest of this. Locate a Scadrian that exhibits your desired power, such as a Steelrunner for F-Steel. Spike that Scadrian to grant them A-Gold and F-Gold. They can now survive, and heal completely, when you spike them to create an F-Steel Hemalurgical Spike. Repeat as necessary to obtain arbitrarily large amounts of spikes for any given power.
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Isn't that easily solvable by ingesting only the necessary amount of metal at any given time, using supersonic speed to drink more when needed, combined with temporary retreats to a supply dump if more metal is needed? Thinking about it, most of what they would do involves tapping metalminds, while intermittently compounding to refill those metalminds. They could still move fast, be very strong, and heal from their metalminds, after using F-Aluminum. The meaningful things they lose during this would be stuff like A-Chromium and the A-Aluminum itself.
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Looking at that post it seems to assume that she had a vacuum behind the entirety of her arm, it says breifly even for someone with F-tin, F-steel and F-Zinc. She only needs to move her hand slightly faster than the air to create a vacuum just behind her hand, not over the entire distance covered. 1. Copper is of negligible concern, mostly included as an afterthought. We can debate as to whether the applicable surge-blocking power would be A-Chromium, A-Aluminum, A-Copper, etc. but I will stake my claim that one of them, although I may not know which one it is, would definitely work. 2. You would not need any medallions. You could simply Hemalurgically Spike an Auger and Hemalurgically Spike a Bloodmaker in order to obtain the powers and insert them into whoever you intend to use as a spike factory. 3. Metal supply, including that of Gold, is emphatically not an issue. A. Metal is a renewable resource, on Scadrial B. Assuming it did run out, for the sake of argument, I've ran some math for hypothetical Scadrian populations of 2 billion and 7.75 billion (Earth's population, as of when I did the math), as shown on this Google Sheet. Scadrial's population is nowhere near those levels, mind you. Elendel, the single largest city on the planet, only has a population of 5 million. Furthermore, only a handful of Cities even exist on the planet. 2 Billion is a very long ways off. 4. If we wish to contemplate Vessels seizing control of Hemalurgically Spiked Entities, my response is to contemplate that Harmony, being especially connected to Scadrians because they are literally made out of Ruin and Preservation investiture on top of Hemalurgy being Ruin's magic, would either block their attempts or supersede their efforts by seizing control himself. 5. I am not Mathematician, I study Political Science and Philosophy, but their assumptions regarding the air pocket seem just as good as yours - I'm not going to die on the hill of Mach 17.62, but I hope we can all agree that, given the calculations, she should be at least faster than Sound. 6. Vin's earring is a Hemalurgical Spike, and it is very tiny. It also serves as proof that you do not need large quantities of metal in order to create a Hemalurgical Spike. Wax's earring, courtesy of Harmony, is also a Hemalurgical spike. Shooting Paalm with a Hemalurgical Spike in the size and shape of a bullet, created from Wax's melted down earring, is an important plot point in Shadows of Self. I hope you agree that these counter-examples disprove the premise that large amount of metal are necessary in order to create spikes.
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@The Technovore and @therunner I would like to challenge your claims about speed, and assert that Marasi not only exceeded the speed of sound, but that she did so many times over, to reach an approximate speed of Mach 17.62, as calculated here by Dargoo Faust.
