Dreamwa1ker

59 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_412 said:

What if Starling's his wife and she doesn't remember because of the manacles which were put there because the other dragons were PO'd she'd marry a non-dragon? I know it probably doesn't make sense but just a guess.

I would be bothered by this theory just because of timeline. Starling is like developmentally the equivalent of 17 years old in dragon culture, it would creep me out if he has married her, maybe had kids already at this stage. And he's a mentor figure to her - feels like grooming.

But, didn't get any vibes like that between them anyway. More like a cool big brother figure

I found this quote really tantalizing:

Ch 42

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“Depending on your definition, yes,” Ed said. “And attacking, or even taking too much advantage of the locals, without knowing who is or was set up there would expose not just the Scadrians, but the Shards supporting them. 

Shards plural supporting them. Does Harmony count as more than one Shard? Or that Autonomy is also backing them? OR Does it mean Harmony splits again?

Note that the name Harmony is carefully not mentioned in the convo about the Pathian earring:

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“Don’t you literally worship a Scadrian?” Nazh asked.

“That’s different,” Ed said. “He is nice. Plus, he’s the only known living Shard who has performed the—”

It is worded really carefully so as to not actually say the Shard name that the Pathians worship in this time. I did a search on the text of the full book and there is not a single mention of the word Harmony despite several other Shard names being mentioned throughout. Seems deliberate as a way to not reveal something. So it could be that the thing he is only living Shard to have done, is to have changed the intent, or split it or something?

He is asking her to tell these guys

Oooh I like this. Cusicesh description from Axies Interlude in WoK

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The column sprouted four long arms that came down around the bay, forming fingers and thumbs

Emberdark chapter 25:

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—a towering white mass of Investiture, translucent but not fully transparent, the size of a large building. It had a head and body, vaguely, and dozens of long, many-elbowed arms.

And from Cakoban vision in chapter 52

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It was a many-armed horror, rising from the unsea on two spindly legs, bearing a hollow face full of pits.

All have a bunch of weird spindly arms, seems suspicious.

21 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

I’m sure a shard could make herself forget something if she wanted to perhaps it didn’t end well between them

Maybe it's Valor, they had kids, things ended badly or something happened that made her want to divorce him and give herself the Eternal Sunshine treatment.

Maybe it was really messy, she got mad, and (stormlight)

On 3/6/2025 at 7:13 AM, Qianweilian said:

No, Mercy/Ruin could be more terrifying. Depending of the vessel, I could see it ending up as something like "Apocalypse". Kill everyone so they don't have to suffer more. Basically Kaladin at his worst moment in RoW applying this mentality to everyone regardless if they want to or not.

Mercy + Ruin = Thanos, haha. Or maybe Mercy + Reason is, a eugenics like situation where Reason divorced from ethics takes you quickly to a very bad place.

But more seriously Mercy + Ruin sounds like it would be Nihilism, or Annihilation you could say. Terrifying indeed.

3 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Just curious, do you know what gave you that impression? I personally got more of a wily nature spirit vibe that does what feels right in the moment... while what feels right is informed by a good grasp of the future and fortune. 

It might come down to the same thing, and I'll certainly agree that there'll be a lot of the things she left on Roshar that will make a difference, and which in hindsight might seem like parts of a plan, if they work. But character-wise I don't really see her going through all the computations and deliberately creating extensive plans and contingencies to a larger degree, though I couldn't really argue for it, considering we haven't had her pov.

 

I think of her like this god-as-a gardener idea. We know from some of the various Shard POVs that we've gotten that Shardic futuresight seems to be a view of likely possibilities or paths. Cultivation is then pruning and nurturing towards various options for long term goals. But I think she'd be cultivating a couple options at once, like leaving a few main stems on your tomato plant vs going all in on one.

I think the place this really comes through is her convo with Odium in WaT interlude:

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“What do we do instead?” Cultivation said.

“You want me to say,” he whispered, “that we create systems—teachings, incentives—that encourage the right decisions. That we prevent war by building up societies where people choose peace. We prevent greed by nurturing governments where the greedy are held accountable. We take time, and we steer, but we do not dominate.”

“Yes.”

I also think the moment in Kharbranth showing she has placed assassins, as well as just the fact of her having Dalinar already ready for her to nudge toward the Honor shard rather than just Taravangian Odium plan, shows she keeps contingency plans or grows multiple options for herself. 

Not necessarily cool/ calculating/ computational,  but almost compulsively growing multiple options for herself at all times. 

On 1/10/2025 at 2:17 AM, Varion said:

However, I do think she legitimately tried and failed to convince Taravangian to back down from his goals of conquering the Cosmere. She probably knew that it was unlikely to work, or rather, that it was a very low probability outcome, but felt that since there was a chance then she needed to at least try to talk him into a more peaceful path

Yes this is exactly what I think. She seems like someone that would have plans within plans. What happened was probably not plan A but plan B or C. 

8 hours ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

The Shard of Retribution - by its very Intent - is predisposed to side with literally ANYONE over Taravangian at this point.

That's an interesting idea. I also had the thought that Retribution could change/ develop over time into Justice - or maybe after adding another shard to it or with a different vessel. 

I also totally admit the end of book 5 could just be a big loss for Cultivation, but I do think she still has some bigger plan for later with Lift and maybe Nightblood - she has touched both of them and that combination of infinite Lifelight to fuel Nightblood seems like a Chekov's gun for later. 

I've been mulling this since the end of the book. Maybe I'm just too invested (haha) in Cultivation as a shard, but I think Cultivation did not just get totally caught off guard/complete loss here.

I think that Taravangian combining the Shards of both Honor and Odium was her plan. I realize she fled the system right after he did it (which was the smart thing to do to protect herself) but I don't think this was wholly unplanned or that she has totally failed in her goals.

Evidence:

Firstly, we know Cultivation's methods are to gently nudge and prune and to play the long game. Her conversations with Taravangian early in WaT explicitly state this - she talks about gradual gentle adjustments rather than direct intervention. We also see her do this kind of method with Dalinar with his boon and curse, basically nurtured growth in him over time. So we can assume her overall plan is probably also following this pattern. Additionally we know she is one of the Shards with relatively good future-sight. I mention all this to support the fact that the end of WaT is probably not endgame of her plans. She still has a piece on the board in Lift as well, for which we do not yet know the purpose, so I don't think Cultivation is done with Roshar.

Further we have some statements from Cultivation about her intervention with Taravangian. In RoW, Cultivation has this conversation about her motives after he ascends to Odium:

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 "How did you dare try something like this? How did you know I’d be up to the challenge?”

“I didn’t,” she said. “I couldn’t. You were heading this direction—all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor.”

Bolding mine. Some clever foreshadowing by Brandon - with Honor indeed.

Cultivation's boon and curse with Taravangian make more sense also if she was prepping him for holding the dual-shard. The cold and rigid intelligence and the overwhelming emotion, fit as a precursor of holding the rigid and coldly rules-obsessed Honor together with the passionate Odium. She was prepping him for Retribution all along.

Finally, I personally think this would be better story-wise - hearing Cultivation is supposed to have good future-sight but then seeing one of the only things she sets up be so so wrong (without showing many instances of her being right) kind of falls flat. Having you think she was super wrong but then it turns out it was part of a bigger plan, is more fun in my opinion.

So any thoughts? Do you think Retribution could have been part of Cultivation's plans, or do you think WaT was just a total loss for her?

Oh my gosh can you imagine Zahel does it and we get a scene of a bridge 4 member seeing statue Teft and Phendorana fight again to save the day? Epic

4 hours ago, Blue-phoenix186 said:

tower light only works in the tower and I’m assuming because cultivation left there is no more Lifelight.

I'm assuming that Lift will still be able to produce Lifelight anyway. Now, whether she can learn to infuse spheres - unsure. If she can she is just going to be on a constant food binge infusing spheres. But I like the idea of her becoming a mysterious folk hero, that if you leave out an offering of food she shows up and performs miraculous healings.

On 12/19/2024 at 1:35 PM, DSCrankshaw said:

What we're told in Adolin's last POV is that non-Unoathed Shardblades can no longer be bonded. I believe that means that Shardblades that were not in Shadesmar when Retribution formed are apparently stuck in the physical realm in Blade form. I don't know what that means for Shardblades that were bonded and dismissed to Shadesmar. Are they still in Shadesmar as recovering Deadeyes? Or were they shunted out of Shadesmar to their bonded users? What does that mean for Vienta? Last time we saw her she was in Blade form in the physical realm. Is she still stuck in Blade form?

This is an interesting question. We know from the earlier books, that normally to bond a shardblade you have to have a gemstone on the pommel and keep the blade summoned for 5 days. I was assuming Stormlight is somehow involved with the gemstone and the bonding process, though it is unclear if you have to somehow keep that gemstone charged. But in any case, I'm assuming this is why people could not bond dead shardblades anymore - no Stormlight.

But now that BAM is freed and deadeyes may start to recover - will already bonded dead blades begin to recover somewhat like Maya already had - be able to summon faster, etc? I don't think stormlight is necessary to summon a dead blade, just to bond it. But that is maybe an assumption on my part. I could see already bonded blades either join up with their owners more as an unoathed bond, if they like the person. But perhaps could now rebel/leave if they didn't like the person or way they were being used.

I assumed Reason was the one that wants to hide and survive. Valor I could see having hidden herself not for survival but some other reason. The Why of that is most interesting to speculate on. She notably seems to have hidden only from those on Roshar - communicating with Harmony and Endowment but not with Tanavast or Hoid who at the moment are on Roshar - could be a clue to her motives. It would also explain why Endowment tells Hoid that Valor doesn't want to talk to her - if there is concern of Odium or other Rosharan forces being able to see/and or interfere with her plans.

Could Valor be guarding something dangerous or important as this could fit with her intent? Maybe something Adonalsium left or something with the 4th moon? Could she have been waiting around to sneak attack/assassinate Odium if/when he tries to leave the planet?

I was looking for a thread like this. I don't have a full chart yet, but for the other 2 dawnshards I had been kicking around:

Create and Destroy. This makes all 4 almost like phases of life or existence: Create -> Exist -> Change -> Destroy.

I also thought however that we have Exist and Change which feel quite physical, should the others be more cognitive. I could really see one being like the spark of awareness/sentience like Feel or Think. Especially with several shards seeming more in this vein of emotions or mental things (Odium, Devotion, Mercy, Ambition, and then Reason, Invention)

I also think it's got to have been a Dawnshard. I don't think Exist fits. Maybe Change. But I was thinking maybe one of the other two.

Now that we know 2 Dawnshards and all 16 shard Intents, can we figure out the others? If we have Exist and Change, could the others be Create and Destroy? Destroy would make a good weapon (the torment from that has gotta be terrible though)

Ok maybe one of these is technically a cloak but c'mon, my boys both know how to have a dramatic moment.

On 12/13/2024 at 6:08 AM, Elder said:

Which leads me to the Dor.  We already have a combination of Dominion and Devotion there.  It’s been left alone a lot longer than Honor, so it probably has its own ideas, or is very much shaped by the people who live in the regions that define its power.  It’s hard for me to decide what Dominion+Devotion=. Tanavast thought the best aspects of Adonalsium were in Devotion… Leadership?  I’m kinda glad we’re getting that book soon.

Devotion + Dominion makes me think of like, Paternalism. That's not what the shard would be called I'm sure, but I could see it being kind of the other side of the same coin of Taravangian and Retribution - a Shard that thinks they know what is best for you and so freedom is restricted. Like a somewhat benevolent monarchy, but of course that still has its own issues.

Or could be something like Zeal or Crusade - thinking that zealots would be extremely devoted/worshipful and trying to spread/convert (dominion side). Could also get scary.

I agree that I think all the Shards have to have some kinda negative aspects, that's kind of the point the series seems to have been making. They lack the context and nuance the other aspects would add. 

17 hours ago, Xiahida said:

I do want to add my two clips here: someone like Rock, or Rock himself was killed, to make these spikes. 

Oh no. That might be right and could be a DARK thing to have in Horneater novella if it ever comes out 

I think I missed something - I was reading part of the book while home sick and feverish (fell asleep reading some spiritual realm stuff and had a vwry weird fever dream as well). Anyway my question: What ended up happening with the small rock that was placed in Kaladin's pack?

Zabra will train for these 10 years under Adolin to be the badass swordfighter she always wanted to be.

The word deevy becomes part of the normal lexicon on Roshar.

Adolin designs fashion accessories for his prosthetic leg.

Lift becomes a folk hero/mythical figure, a mysterious young woman who sneaks town to town performing miraculous healings in exchange for food.

Shallan and Adolin’s child will indeed have YuGiOh hair. And Pattern will be Shallan's midwife and then babysitter.

On 12/10/2024 at 2:24 PM, boolamoo said:

For a second I thought the thread was gonna be Kaladin's second chance at a redhead.

Shallan's mom has got it goin' on

3 hours ago, Storm-It said:

There isn't any reason to think that radiant abilities are likely to be similar in families. We know that the Davars and Kholins both include multiple orders, but Lift's fond memories of her mother in addition to their shared surges, make me wonder if Vev may be a strong candidate as her mother. What has Vev been up to lately?

Vev has been theorized to be Liss, the assassin Jasnah is hiring to spy on Aesudan in one of the Prologues. Her physical description matches up pretty well with Vedel's Herald art, and an assassin works pretty well as her madness/inversion of her Healing and Loving attributes.

However whether Liss/Vedel could be Lift's mother, I would need to do a reread looking for evidence of her mother's death or not, and how that timeline would work out. We don't know anything about Liss after Gavilars death, but also Liss had been active with Jasnah for a while presumably in Kholinar and Lift would have been several years old already at the time - Lift'searlier life was in Rall Elorim. I don't know that it works unless Lift is stating loss of her mother at a very young age. And I don't think that works unless Lift waited a long time after her mother's death to go to the Nightwatcher because she had made the statement about how long she had been ten, implying the age she was when she got her boon.

Really worried what is going to happen with Gavinor. If instead it ends up being he finally gets some quality time with Dalinar and Navani on a family adventure - I would love it but seriously no way is that going to happen.

The insight into Lift from her vision really tugs at the heartstrings.

I loved seeing Syl talk Kal through pulling himself out of negative headspace. I did also notice the "storming woman" comment Kal had showing he is thinking of her more as a person and less as a spren (feels like even more Syladin foreshadowing, maybe it will grow on me).

The Wind telling Kaladin they need to preserve a piece of Honor really does seem like foreshadowing for him picking it up.

Ishar showing up so early was a big surprise. I was VERY concerned when he eyed Syl, considering his experiments. I'm pretty confused about what he is saying about Szeth. 

But this I was so excited for:

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“Do you know what I do for them, child? I founded the Oathpact, so I can siphon some of their pains onto myself. I bear their darkness. Each of them would be crushed by it, were it not for me."

I had theorized a while back that the Death Rattle "the burdens of nine become mine" might not actually be about Taln but rather about Ishar, since the other Heralds say he has helped them or done so much for them. This seems like it might confirm it. I suspect there are consequences though for all of them.

And then Ishar speaking in small caps is quite concerning, has he somehow already connected to the remnant of Honor's power?

Navani eating chouta has to be Lift and absolutely cracks me up to think about her trying to act the part.

Also wanted to add that the little bit with Lopen makes him seem ready for 4th ideal - accepting the things he cannot change (I relate the 4th ideal to the Serenity prayer if you have ever heard of it).

7 minutes ago, Eahlendell said:

I always felt the combination of Towerlight (science) and Warlight could represent all three shards coming together as Civilisation. The British kind, where we tried to impose our ideals and values on the whole world. 

Ah, the shard of Colonialism. 

I kid but that actually could make a pretty interesting big bad for future Cosmere and (Emberdark Spoiler)

When I was reading I was struck by this:

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As a king leaves a people with the gift of his absence, so that they may grow and solve their own problems, without his hand to always guide them.

I know everyone has been theorizing about Nohadon and Honor in this thread but man does this sound like Cultivation's philosophy. What she was trying to explain to Taravangian. I wonder if she had influence on Nohadon. Or if Tanavast picked this up from her.

It also mirrors Kaladin's storyline quite well. He stepped back from leading the Windrunners. 4th ideal (and my theory is also 5th) for Windrunners seem to start moving in the Leadership direction (their 2nd attribute after Protecting). So 5th ideal could be something related to what Nohadon is saying here.