GudThymes

7 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Jezrien didn't die until well after the death rattle was recorded and presumably the person was witnessing the shifting of the burden at the time it was shifted, which was 4,500 years in the past when the 9 heralds refused to go back and abandoned Taln. 

This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me. Every other death rattle that has an interpretation accounted for is referencing some future event. Why would there be a death rattle about something that happened 4,500 years prior? I think that there are so many parallels throughout all of Stormlight archive and Sanderson's books generally that this is just another misdirect. We think it's about Taln but it is really about some future decision.

I could see an interpretation of that rattle that the "burdens of nine" is about what Taln did in the past but then the "future"  part of the rattle would be the "Almighty release me" and could be foreshadowing the end of the Oathpact itself rather than Taln leaving Braize.

I don't think that the death rattle is referring to either Taln nor to Ishar. Here it is for us all to review:

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The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.

First, if it is Ishar then he cannot have 8 additional burdens. Taln's burden is bored by himself and Jezrien is now dead, so there is no burden of Jezrien to carry.

Second, if it is Taln (on Braize) then why would he be carrying the other Herald's madnesses? Taln is bearing the other's agonies, but they live with their own madnesses.

Third, the last line says "Almighty, release me". Literally in that chapter Ishar says that he has "ascended to the Almighty". If the death rattle applies to Ishar then presumably he says it in a moment of clarity (like when someone swears their next Ideal), but then still why would he reference the Almighty?

My belief is that the death rattle likely applies to something that happens in the back half after the time gap.

1 hour ago, Rorzikel said:

You can pop a balloon with a pin or fell a tree with a small chunk taken out.

Sure, but tossing a stone in a rushing river has no impact. Or adding concentrated hydrochloric acid to an ocean would do nothing.

Obviously the anti-stormlight affected the perpendicularity, but why? It means that the nature of the perpendicularity that Dalinar creates is more like a balloon than a river, but is a shardpool the same? Would exposing anti-investiture into a shardpool of the same shard cause it to collapse?

I was thinking about how could Mraize, Iyatil, and Lieke get to The Tower so quickly to then be with Shallan as her "guards". Well, since we know that they have light weavings consider that the three in the boat were actually their Spren (or just light weavings) and the "transportation" was itself a lightweaving that left the trip "invisible" and then sneaky sneaky they're with Shallan the entire time.

Otherwise, what a couple of chapters. I am so glad to see that the anti-light is being used for something other than just killing Spren. Albeit I'm a little confused on the mechanics. My understanding is that the anti-light should only take out an equal amount of stormlight and given that a perpendicularity is "infinite" how would that actually cause the collapse?

Something about moment instability creating turbulence or something like that? It wouldn't break anything about bonds or powers but just causing a momentary disruption during the reaction?

22 minutes ago, Moirne said:

So I had the impression that the window with the 12 people in the field was very zoomed out - such that the only recognizable traits would be skin and hair color, and maybe some rough clothing shapes. I’m not surprised Renarin couldn’t recognize specific people’s features. This is what I had in mind… 

You're definitely right, but even further away. They aren't even wholly confident they're humans or that there are 12 people. Here's the excerpt.

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The fourth window was, strangely, a bright green field with distant figures standing in it. The grass didn’t flee from them, so perhaps they’d been standing there a long time. He counted… twelve? He looked to Renarin, who reached up and rested a hand beside the window.

 

“Peace,” Renarin said. “I feel peace from this one… Who are they, do you suppose?” He tried humming to Confusion, poorly, but Rlain could kind of tell what he meant.

 

“Humans,” Rlain said. “They’re all human, I think. This one might be a Horneater, and this one Makabaki… And this one—what are those humans with the blue skin?”

The only thing that I'm confident about with this vision is that it occurs in Shinovar "the grass didn't flee". The whole point of this section is that Renarin is teaching Rlain that the visions aren't fact. And then they make a whole bunch of assumptions. We should not take their observations at face value.

Is it possible that the "Everstorm" we saw was a fakeout? I'm thinking back to the earlier epigraphs about reconsidering the storm:

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The Wind told me, before she vanished, that it was the change in Odium’s vessel that restored her voice. I wonder. Perhaps it is the new storm, making people begin to reconsider that the wind is not their enemy.

What if what Rlain assumed is the Everstorm is actually some new version of the high storm?

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? What is the point? If they want to control BAM having her inside a gem stone is ideal.

Im suggesting that some amount of Honors investiture in the SR is being used as an additional layer to the gemstone. The focus isn't BAM but Honors investiture.

If stormlight/anti-stormlight work similar to matter/antimatter collisions then theoretically excess investiture should be converted into kinetic energy based off the sheer quantity of anti-light present. I don't think it is like fission where other anti-light undergoes the reaction but the force of the annihilation should be enough to have some effect on the other investiture.

Also, Iyatil wants to subjugate BAM. We don't know that Mraize wants to as well.

8 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

You would need a LOT of anti-light to destroy even a fragment of a shard's investiture.

I agree that this is the weakest part of my idea. Do we know exactly how the reaction works though? Specifically whether it is cascading or not?

There's also the fact that the explosion would be in the SR that could change things.

Chapters 25 and 26 were very very interesting because it truly showed us the splinters within the Rosharan Ghostblood organization and what everyone's goals are. It's already known that this group is not perfectly aligned with Thaidakar and his goal to protect Scadrial, or at least they have very different interpretations of how to achieve said goal. So then what does each faction truly want to achieve?

Starting with the less knowledgeable more rank and file Rosharan members, Icy Tongue states that it is to get Investiture off world.

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“Wait,” said Icy Tongue. “Mraize, how does this help Master Thaidakar’s plans?”

Mraize didn’t reply, instead sighting his target and loosing. He finally hit the red center circle.

“We should be working on our plan,” Icy Tongue said, “to transport Stormlight offworld, now that we know it can be blanked of Identity and transferred between realms. How does chasing down some ancient spren further Master Thaidakar’s orders to provide him a renewable source of Investiture?”

Reasonable, Thaidakar likely has other goals for the Rosharan cell to achieve but they weren't about the spren it seems. Before Iyatil realizes that Shallan is there she answers us honestly about what she wants to achieve. That she doubts Mraize has the same goals as herself and that her goal is also to protect Scadrial.

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“We are not seeking an ally,” Iyatil said. 

 

“Something is wrong with him,” Iyatil said softly. “I do not think he has been replaced with a duplicate, but I do question his loyalty to our cause.”

 

“He is smarter than you give him credit for. He works to protect his homeland above all else, but once we find Mishram for my purposes, he will see. Master Thaidakar can only protect his land if the Shards can be controlled. Will this fit your plans as well?”

So Iyatil is looking to subjugate BAM in some way, and is trying to control the shards themselves. So if both Iyatil and Thaidakar want to protect Scadrial but disagree on the means and Mraize wants the same "means" (to go to the Spiritual Realm) as Iyatil, but has different goals. Then what are his goals?

I think his monologuing in this chapter explains what he is trying to do.

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“Interesting words, Chain,” Mraize said, sighting with his hand ballista and loosing again. “Words spoken with the wisdom of the past—excellent at teaching us to deal with the world as it has existed. And only as it has existed.”

Oh, storms. A gemstone by itself was meaningless. But if he managed to get hold of the anti-Stormlight that Navani had developed...

“Once in the Spiritual Realm,” Mraize said, “Iyatil and I will watch Dalinar. If we stay close to him, most likely he will lead us to the prison.”

Specifically, one had a gemstone affixed with white-blue light that warped the air around it. 

So Mraize has the ability to deliver anti-stormlight in a weapon specifically designed to deliver "payloads". He plans on waiting to use anything until he gets to the prison itself. And most importantly he wants to use his weapon in a new way. The wisdom of the past is only useful in the old world, not the new.

With that said here is my supposition. Mraize is going to the SR not to kill BAM or any specific Spren, but to destroy BAMs prison itself. Since the majority of Honors power was left in the SR and we do not know exactly what is imprisoning BAM, what if the power itself is the prison and Mraize is going to destroy the majority of the Shards power itself by creating a light/anti light annihilation.

We've seen Spren killed by the anti-light, we know Ado was splintered into a number of shards, we have seen Shards themselves killed and their power be wrecked and distributed in a variety of ways (AonDor, the mists, whatever is going on with Threnody, Harmony) but we have yet to see the Shardic Intent be destroyed.

Is Mraize trying to kill Honors shard? The focus on changing the future using lessons from the past seemed like an interesting way to tease that result.

If the bulk of Honor's power is in the SR and Mraize launches that anti-honor bolt into it... Bad bad bad.

I totally see why others think that. I've gotten (and seen people agree) major death flags from just about every main perspective character so I just don't even know anymore. For me, since I love Adolin as a character as well as how he is a great foil for most of the protagonists, I interpret his death flags as being Odiums champion since he is also giving a lot of descent into anger vibes. Whereas Dalinar's whole arc in Oathbringer was turning away from anger and becoming something more. And if Dalinar will be his champion, who better than his own son to be Odiums.

2 hours ago, robardin said:

It's about Wit's comment on how Rayse discovered that PREVIOUS oaths made "by the power" carried over after the death of the Vesse

That isn't what Wit said though, that's an interpretation. This is the exact quote:

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More, they aren’t quite bound in the same way. Oh, they’ll have to keep this agreement for the contest of champions—a formal agreement like that binds the power, not just the individual, something Rayse himself discovered long ago. But lesser promises—like the one made to Dalinar about not exploiting loopholes—are a different matter. He is breaking that one easily, because he did not make it.

Wit says a formal agreement bonds the power and the vessel both. Wit could have meant what you said or he could have meant something else. Rayse could have made a promise and then thought that his unmade could carry it out but since they're also the power they couldn't.

Or something else entirely. We are trying to predicate our argument on something that isn't definitive. And Odium as a shard didn't even exist prior to Rayse, if he is bound by something Ado did, then every Shard must be.

Also @Ashbringer I was confused by what you said about Ishar and danwshards. I thought Ishar had never held a danwshard?

Something is definitely binding the various Shards and I think it can only be either something related to the nature of Ado and the danwshards or related to the oaths the vessels swore to each other when ascending.

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

The Sibling also comments on how the Stormfather isn't like he used to be, that he used to be "happier" (?!) instead of "angry all the time".

I picked up on that too and found it very interesting. My two thoughts on it are option 1) some kind of spiritual realm influence coming from the future where odium and honor shards get merged or 2) Dalinar is affecting a change on the stormfather due to his deep connection to Odium (source Oathbringer).

I know a lot think that the Adolin interaction is foreshadowing death, for me it locked in my opinion that Adolin will be the champion but it's going to be for a reason most of us can stand behind. This whole series is about morality and how there is no absolute good, I think that TOdium will be successful in swaying Adolin using Malayaran in some way.

8 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I think this quote from the chapter 1 of WaT explains exactly why the break is different. I'd also call out that Adolin is still able to help Maya recover, and he is not the original knight that broke her oaths. Pattern explains in detail here:

 

I think we are agreeing on almost the exact same thing. Though I would say that the reason for Shallans broken bond is because of her (lack of) Intent, not because she was a child. I think Pattern is bringing up her being a child to help explain how the break was different. Kaladin was an adult and he did not break his bond with Syl because of Intent, but conflicting oaths. Both stayed connected and we've seen a living radiant repair their Spren.

I believe that should Shallan die before healing Testament then Testament would essentially be in the same situation as the deadeyes despite the broken bond being different than the Recreance.

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I thought her bond was not quite severed *because* she was a child who didn’t really know what she was doing so it wasn’t as much of a clean and intentional break.

It's different because Shallan is still alive and could fix the bond. The original radiants for all the deadeyes are dead and the original oaths cannot be resworn or re upheld.

I think Occam's Razor is honestly the best answer for why this theory doesn't make sense. Yes it's a book and Brando could do something else. But between the two theories of Chanarach being Shallans mom or Shallan herself; one is a lot simpler. I think most readers will be really put off if Shallan turns out to be Chana.

10 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

He is necessary for Mayalaran's arc.

Adolin is a very interesting character to me because imo his arc has been a slow descent into anger and emotion while still embodying the same virtues he showed us on day 1. I think Adolin is a great foil to Dalinar and while I don't want him to die I see a way that BS can explor his descent and death (I would want him to become fused if he dies) in interesting ways.

I posted something very similar in the mega thread for the recent ch. previews. I think it is an easy trap that I and likely others fall into, believing that Hoid wants exactly what our protagonists want. We know Hoid wants to do something about Rayse because of his grudge and thinks Odium to be the worst of the shards. But we truly don't have any idea what exactly his goal is. The copper mind page on Hoid supposes that he wants to "defeat Rayse" but the letters to Frost it references don't explicitly state that. Just that he is concerned with Rayse and his actions.

What we've seen Hoid do consistently is acquire investiture from every planet he visits. A free Odium would presumably make that more difficult. But Hoid might be making these "mistakes" in order to further his own goals. They're only mistakes because they damage our protagonists.

My belief is that Hoid wants something very similar to the goals of the coalition but distinctly different enough that he is willing to sabotage them slightly in order to keep things in line with what he wants.

I think one of the trends we've seen is that certain gods are better at future sight than others and that the more a god takes direct action doesn't correlate to success.

I think it less likely that Nale is working with Cultivation than just she is really good at a nudge here a push here a trim there to get what she wants. That and I think she has more plans than we see and some certainly fail.

Dalinar's boon paid off over a much longer amount of time than nightblood with Nale.

1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:

Odium + Honor

Inquisition is my headcanon. Oaths that bound your "righteous" fury.

It also tracks for a potential "crusade" against other planets.

I feel like Colot is intended to be a device to show Adolin being a foil for Dalinar right now. The conversation to Shallan in Oathbringer? About the importance of treating your guards well and giving them authority by letting them guard you? Well Dalinar left Colot behind for the wind runners. Yet Adolin remembers him and spends time with him giving him importance.

I felt that Colot left the wind runners because he couldn't commit to their order, he was left behind during the betrayal on the tower and has lost his importance to Dalinar slowly over the course of the series. But now we have Adolin swoop him embodying the ethos of the edgedancers.

I highly doubt Colot to be a worldhopper (at least yet).

Given the connection to Ulaam on this chapter and this might be a stretch, could Baxil be aetherbound to zephyr or something?

The cloth could be covering his physical transformation. 

If not then I assume the nightwatcher did something very odd to him. It seems similar to Lift but distinctly different given that people need to know about him to see him. He says that he and Ulaam wouldn't have their conversation if Ulaam hadn't received his letter. I also wonder what an Unkalaki with their blessing would see if they weren't aware of Baxil.

2 hours ago, therunner said:

Good catch!

This raises question, why didn't he directly lie in the other cases as well? He is the usual confident self in this.
All I can think is that somehow the non-Taln Herald that died did not return to damnation, and that part is the lie, but that is a bit tortured logical leap.

I no longer believe in the original stormfaker theory after the most recent preview chapters. But in the vein of the recent conversation I think that it is plausible that the Stormfather is still telling the truth.

One interpretation is that the Stormfather knows that Braize is not damnation thus he is not lying about the herald dying AND returning to damnation.

Or the herald didn't actually return to Braize but remained on Roshar. There's nothing saying that the Fused have to come immediately when a herald returns, just that they can until the heralds lock themselves away again.

Or, the stormfather is lying outright and has always been able to lie outright (not just be misleading or lying by omission). I think this is the most likely option and it is why I no longer believe in the stormfaker idea.

Why are we assuming that Hoid dropped the ball so fully. He missed a loophole but does that matter to his goals?

Per this contract Odium stays bound to the system no matter what. In my reading it felt like he was more pissed that odium got the better of him and that Rayse was dead rather than the contract.

One of the first time Hoid and Dalinar talk Hoid says to not trust him and that he will watch all of Roshar burn if that means he gets what he wants.

I wanted to assist conversation by compiling all of the epigraphs for the released sample chapters under one "house" so to speak. 

Is there a good place somewhere I can do that or should I just create a thread on one of the spoiler boards?

On 8/20/2024 at 8:38 PM, Dreamwa1ker said:

He says it's not 1 to 1 and there is some fuzziness. With BAM being corresponding to heliodor really points like Bondsmith but what if it is surges not Radiant orders that they are corresponding to? And the one missing is Adhesion - "Honor's truest surge"?

I agree with your interpretation. I think what we are being clued in on is that the Unmade correlate more with the surges than the order, and the surge that is left out is Adhesion. Especially since the Fused only have access to one surge.