CameronUluvara

Fezzik, the point is that it’s conflicting. This whole discussion is about rationalizing aluminum’s nature with its feruchemical ability to be invested. By the way, Frustration, your solution is that the metal that resists Investiture can be Invested but not un-Invested? That makes more sense to you? And how does that not just support the anti-god metal theory, if the Investiture is gone forever?

You've got good points. And I am aware of this theory's flaws, but no, not all of the evidence is just about allomancy. Besides those specific Wobs that talk about feruchemy, not allomancy, there are others that compare the metallic arts (yes, all of the metallic arts) to AonDor. He specifically compares it to how Aons use a pattern to draw Investiture from an outside source. Yes, there are more WoBs that talk about metalminds being Invested, specifically about how they resist being manipulated by other forms of Investiture, but my argument there is that Investiture passes through metalminds often enough that they are resistant to other forms of Investiture, like how a gemstone that's held stormlight for so long might crack when filled with voidlight. But of course, you've already heard these arguments in full. I'm acknowledging the contradictions in feruchemy and aluminum (that this theory solves). I'd happily accept an alternate theory with less flaws, but I can't accept any of your theories because it leaves this huge contradiction out there--Aluminum resists Investiture. Aluminum is easily Invested. The information of the status quo is incomplete. That's what I'm trying to do with my theory: resolve that conflict. I'd accept another theory, but I can't accept the status quo because it has more flaws than my theory. As for your last point about the Shard metals, (please don't say God metals, it's confusing since this thread started by talking about aluminum as a potential Adonalsium-God metal) I don't quite understand what it has to do with this theory.

Your answer is yes. And, because you asked this in response to Frustration's claim that aluminum 'doesn't turn Investiture off, it's just unaffected" I'm going to assume you were also asking if that was correct. And that answer is no. Aluminum does pop speed bubbles, the entirety of the speed bubble, not just the part around the aluminum is affected.

Questioner What would happen-- Imagine I had-- imagine Wayne is standing near the end of an aluminium tube. He tries to set up a speed bubble such that he radius would go through the tube, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson Okay standing at the end of an aluminum tube, well I don't know-- Oh I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I think that if it's trying to be set up through aluminum it's gonna' disrupt it, you're gonna' have that sort of the "backlash" that you get when-- yeah. Questioner Oh so you can't even set it, it won't be there *inaudible*-- Brandon Sanderson I don't think you can set it up, I think it's gonna' cause it to collapse the second that it tries to pop up around the aluminum. Questioner Okay that makes sense. Brandon Sanderson [...] Yeah, it's probably gonna' act like you tried to set up a speed bubble on something that's too small and moving.

tay95 A theme throughout a lot of the Cosmere novels is that form, of one sort or another (patterns, aons, etc.) has a crucial role to play in unlocking or using Investiture. As a chemist, I'm curious about the role of form in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does the underlying molecular or crystalline structure of the metal or alloy play a roll? Different processes, doping ratios, and metal mixtures result in different molecular packing, lattices, and ultimately structure. It seems like that kind of very defined, orderly matrix would be right in line with other forms of unlocking Investiture. Brandon Sanderson Yes! I've actually mentioned to people before that the chemistry of the various metals act in the same way that the Aons work for AonDor. It's more a key than it is a source of power itself. Here's one

I could answer each of your complaints, and oh, how I want to! But we'd be going in circles again. We're not understanding each other, and we're not going to come any closer to agreement. It's meaningless to continue.

I could get behind that. But the Sibling said it was created of Honor and Cultivation, not formed from the thoughts of men. I'm not denying a connection could exist between the Heralds and the Unmade. But right now, these theories' logistics aren't working out.

And you disregard Wobs saying that Investiture is not in the metal, and those saying Aluminum can't be Invested. Somebody just ask Brandon! If the Investiture is bound to the atom, where does it go when the atom changes? Why does it come back? BipedSnowman So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture? OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope? Brandon Sanderson I see no reason why these wouldn't work. If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key. You recreate the key, you get back the Investiture. Metal does not store Investiture. Metal, in Allomancy, in Feruchemy, in Hemalurgy, creates Connection or channels it from the spiritual realm.

No? They don’t? I’ve adequately answered these arguments in my earlier posts. We’re going in circles, stating opinions and citing sources. We’re not coming any closer to agreement, so though it’s been lovely, this is where I get off the train. I’ll leave you with this: my theory has an explanation for why aluminum, which greatly resists Investiture, can be used to store Connection. Among all the contradictions, I picked the side that makes the Cosmere work.

"The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed." Rogaen What would happen if a Feruchemist fills, for example, a tin metalmind then mixes it to make a pewter metalmind? Does the stored attribute change? Is the Investiture gone when you melt the metal? What if he just makes it into a tin metalmind again? Brandon Sanderson If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. BipedSnowman So you could, for example, use electrolysis to dissolve a metalmind in water, then reverse the reaction later to get the investiture? OR, better question, if you store investiture in one allotrope of iron, can your retrieve it off you change to a different allotrope? Brandon Sanderson I see no reason why these wouldn't work. If the Investiture were in the metal, the Investiture would be in metal in the water. It'd either be in the water, or it would escape like from a broken gemstone. It's not in the water or the allotrope or the metal. It's in the key. You recreate the key, you get back the Investiture. Metal does not store Investiture. Metal, in Allomancy, in Feruchemy, in Hemalurgy, creates Connection or channels it from the spiritual realm.

When he says Invested, I believe he means 'much Investiture has passed through it', or 'it is the key to a lot of Investiture'. Like when he said that a gemstone that had frequently held one light wouldn't hold another light quite as well. At least, that's a reasonable explanation, with which we can rationalize seemingly contradictory WoBs so that they no longer disagree. Yes, the phrasing is not exact. He didn't have this argument in mind. But I'm making it work because there isn't another explanation. Like I said earlier, I don't know why the amount of Investiture in the vault makes the key harder to throw around, only Brandon knows, but this is what he's said.

No, he said that the metal isn't invested, it's a doorway to something else that stores the investiture. Only the vault becomes more or less invested. I don't know why the amount of Investiture in the vault makes the key harder to throw around, only Brandon knows, but this is what he's said.

I know, I know, not supposed to post twice in a row, but I got too excited about this discovery to spend the time copy-and-pasting all these sources right then. Well, here they are, some of the WoBs I was looking at that support this theory. SageOfTheWise In Allomancy, normal metals are simply a tool that channels Allomancer's already existing Connection to the power of Preservation, which is why non-Allomancers don't get powers from digesting metal. But if I understand it correctly, god metals are an exception, since they are a form of a Shard's power, burning them directly uses the power stored within. If I have this right, how come a normal person can burn lerasium, but not atium? Or could they, and no ones thought to try? But if that was true why are there atium Mistings? Brandon Sanderson Suffice it to say that what people both in the books and out think about the god metals has some holes in it. Andrew The Great (paraphrased) What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and I'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist. Andrew The Great (paraphrased) If someone aluminum or duralumin burned the Feruchemically charged metals, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Basically the same thing as above, except with aluminum. Aluminum, they would just go away. Questioner Mistborn travels to Roshar, what does he or she use to get Invested? Brandon Sanderson *pause* So. *pause* I think I've talked about this before on the 17th Shard, but I'm not 100% sure and so I don't want to anything right now, not knowing what I've said. But you can look it up. You can ask Peter. Hey Peter, have I talked about someone using-- Have I ever in an interview before talked about using metals... A Mistborn travels to Roshar and uses the metals there? Peter Ahlstrom I think that you have said that they could do it. Brandon Sanderson I said it. Okay, so the thing about the metals you have to understand is the metals are a key, the metals are not magical themselves, except for specific ones. If I've already said that I can tell you, go to Roshar and you could use the metals that are there to power your Allomancy because the difference is in your soul and you're actually drawing directly from Preservation. Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it. Lurcher Can you burn a metal wrapped in another metal, if both are Allomantic? Like, the inner metal, could you just burn that before? Brandon Sanderson No, you're gonna have to work your way through the outer one. Lurcher And what if it was a non-Allomantic metal? The same? Brandon Sanderson It's gonna depend on how thick it is, and stuff. But I would say, if you wrap it in a non-Allomantic metal, that's not good for getting to the metal. It's viable, but it just depends on how thick it is, and things like that. Like, sometimes things have been plated to keep the access to the metal off, but usually you would want to do that in aluminum, to make sure. Specific Aluminum WoBs Questioner Would aluminum give an atium shadow? Like if someone threw an aluminum spear? Brandon Sanderson The aluminum would not give an atium shadow. Good question. Coinshooter (paraphrased) Could aluminum act as a sort of shield from other forms of Investiture? As in, could an aluminum Misting lashed to something burn aluminum and dispel the Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) RAFO. Kurkistan Speaking of interfering, if you shot an aluminum bullet through a time bubble, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson Ooooh, that's a good question. I'm gonna RAFO that one. It's an excellent question. Douglas What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know? Brandon Sanderson Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other Investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities. (Assorted Brandon Sanderson) All right, all right. Let's see... /u/Aurora_Fatalis, changing metals around with other forms of Investiture is generally going to work, according to how I view the magic right now. The power is there, you just need to align the matter the right way. So forging new metals: not too difficult. This is because Allomancy isn't actually using Investiture in the metals, but using it as a key to get power from somewhere else. First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power. Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed. Aluminum has some weird properties on all of the magic systems, not just Allomancy. It does not have the same effect, but aluminum has some bizarre effects.

After a deep dive through the arcanum, I believe these disagreements are caused by faulty understanding of the metallic arts. I have now learned that the metals are not actually Invested by the arts. They are more like strainers. Allomancers draw on Investiture through the metals, which determines what effect the Investiture has. Same with Feruchemists--they do not Invest the metal. Having Feruchemical power is like having a door to your own personal vault of Investiture that you fill and empty; the metal is the key that determines what effect the investiture that you give up and take back has. They merely channel an already existing connection to the spiritual realm. All of aluminum's effects in the metallic arts now make perfect sense. Now, my original theory of an anti-god metal, which was thought to be derailed because aluminum could be Invested on Scadrial, is back on track. Aluminum blocks Investiture, destroys Investiture, can temporarily change Connection/Identity to remove the ability to access Investiture, and do lots of fun anti-Investiture things.

It works in fabrials by making them not work!! In Dawshard: Rushu "It is interfering with the conjoined rubies in a fascinating way...Aluminum is interfering with the mechanism, making the conjoinment uneven. Huio: "This aluminum has fascinating properties; I believe the captive spren are reacting to its presence, almost like prey react to a predator. When I touch this foil to the stone, they push to the other side of their confines. I hypothesis that the aluminum interferes with their ability to sense not only my thoughts of them, but the thoughts of their conjoined half." Is that not consistent with the properties of Aluminum demonstrated everywhere else in the Cosmere? Can we not say that there is a standard reaction to aluminum, differed very very slightly on Scadrial? Also, what does RoW say about Nalthis?

An aluminum anomaly. And yes, that its creation was also unusual.

Considering that Scadrial is the anomaly of the cosmere, I believe it’s easier to assume that Ruin/Preservation created a different type of Aluminum.

No? Not if they created it differently? The point is that Aluminum acts differently on Scadrial (it's part of the magic system). Scadrial was created differently (by Ruin/Preservation instead of Adonalsium). These could be related.

Presumably, since Ruin/Preservation created Scadrial, they also created this Aluminum. Scadrial aluminum may be different from aluminum on other worlds, or an alloy with only a tiny bit of aluminum.

Jared Padalecki as the Lord Ruler. He fits the physical description and he did such a great job with Lucifer.

Evil priest warrior tax collectors from Mistborn. Have you been reading the Death Rattles at the beginning of every chapter? What do you think of those?

I've read that, but what I'm saying is that the Heralds never bonded spren. There is never an indication that they bonded either spren or 'Made'. They got their powers from the blades, gifted directly from Honor. Another flaw in this theory is that there are nine unmade. If Honor (with Cultivation) had created them, there would be ten. That's his number: ten heralds, ten orders, ten notes on a scale, ten honorblades. There are nine unmade (and nine types of Fused). They're of Odium. Numbers have a lot of significance when talking about Shards. Why, if the 'Made' were manifestations of divine attributes of the Heralds, would there not be ten? Also, the Unmade really don't have a corresponding order of Knight Radiant. That WoB is being misconstrued. Some, like Re-Shephir, appear similar, but most are not so clearly inverted. Brandon can definitely say that none of them relate to Bondsmiths because Odium/singers don't believe in Adhesion and all that. Also, both the Heralds and the Fused (backed by the Stormfather) have said that the effects of time are the main reason for their insanity. I can't go further with either of these arguments (Ishar/Cultivation and Heralds/Unmade) without my RoW copy. I can get back to all of you with further evidence and quotes when I get it back.

Dichotomy?

Heralds aren’t bonded to spren, they predated the unmade, and they’re crazy because of torture and time.

There are far too many arguments going on. We don't know enough about Investiture/Connection/Identity. Original question--can we all agree that aluminum is probably not the Adonalsium metal?