Renarin Kholin

On Roshar, symmetry is seen as holy. However, it is seen as pretentious to subtly claim perfection through use of symmetry. For example, Ialai Sadeas has a symmetric name, which if I remember correctly, Navani comments on negatively.

Considering that Rosharans don't even like names (aside from religious figures and lore) to be symmetrical, it follows that symmetric fashion would be similarly frowned upon. As evidence for this, most of the outfits we've seen in folios or on the Stormlight minis are asymmetrical. Most of the men have suits or vests that button up slightly to one side, not directly in the middle. And every female outfit is asymmetric because of the safehand sleeve (or glove).

Maybe the reason that safehands became a part of Vorin culture was in order to make sure that women's outfits were never perfectly symmetrical, preventing presumptuous claims of holiness.

I absolutely agree that the legend that Fort talks about involving bone spores is a reference to White Sand. The disagreement in world over whether they are white or black makes that pretty obvious. However, I don't think that White Sand is necessarily related to the Aethers. Rather, I think that both Aethers and White Sand are different examples of the Luhel bond. Both work in similar ways, requiring water in trade for doing their bidding. There seem to be, as discussed above, too many differences in the specifics of where they originate and how they work for white sand to actually be a 13th aether. But Hoid was very specific in talking about the Luhel bond, and if the aethers were the only example in the Cosmere, then it would probably just be called an aether bond rather than having a broader category name.

In the most recent minis kickstarter update, they announced a mini for a character called Zellion. My best guess is that this is El, the Fused we briefly see at the end of RoW. If it is a Stormlight character like I assume, they certainly look like a Fused. What do you think?

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

You messed up here.

Thanks, I have changed that

The map of Roshar included in the Way of Kings shows several cities that were not important (or even mentioned as far as I can remember) until later books, and some which have still not played a significant role. For example, Mourn's Vault, Eila, Elanar, and Varikev have still not played any major role. Others like Rathalas or Azimir were unimportant in book 1, but became very important in Oathbringer. So obviously, Brandon has plans for the cities that were labeled on that original map included in book 1.

Mourn's Vault sticks out to me especially, since Brandon has said,

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LadyLameness

Last we heard, Tarah was moving to Mourn's Vault. As of the end of Oathbringer, is she still in Alethkar?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO. Let's just say that area of Alethkar is not a-- not a pleasant place.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

which sounds to me similar to the effect Re-Shephir had on Urithiru before Shallan drove her out. So I wondered, could there be one of the Unmade currently or historically residing at Mourn's Vault?

First, I ruled out several. Not Re-Shephir, since she was residing in Urithiru until recently. Not Moelach, who was in Kharbranth and now the Horneater peaks. Nor was it Nergaoul, who has been active in Alethkar, Jah Keved, and the Shattered Plains.

Next, I ruled out Ashertmarn. The Heart of the Revel just doesn't sound like it would cause an area to be considered "not a pleasant place." My best guess as to where Ashertmarn resided prior to Oathbringer would be somewhere in the Reshi Isles.

I haven't found anything that suggests Yelig-nar affects to area around itself. It seems that it only affects a person who attempts to bond with it. So, I ruled out Yelig-nar.

Ba-Ado-Mishram was imprisoned during the False Desolation, and I don't think an imprisoned Unmade would affect the region around them.

The other four three, Chemoarish, Dai-gonarthis, Ba-Ado-Mishram and Sja-anat were harder to narrow down. Corrupted spren would certainly make an area "unpleasant," though I think at least one of the characters would know about corrupted spren if they were anywhere in Alethkar. I suspect that, until the events of Oathbringer, Sja-anat resided somewhere far from Alethkar, but I can't entirely rule her out as a possibility.

Dai-gonarthis is hard to rule out, since we know so little about him. But, if he were free, I suspect that more regions of Roshar would have suffered Aimia's same fate. Mourn's Vault does not seem to be on the verge of destruction by an Unmade, so I doubt that Dai-gonarthis is there.

Which leaves us with: Chemoarish. She is also known as the Dustmother, and is commonly mistaken as the Nightwatcher, whom it is confirmed that she is not. Little else is known about her, but the title Dustmother makes me think that she probably has a regional effect, much like Moelach or Nergaoul, which would explain why Mourn's Vault is "not a pleasant place."

Related to aluminum armor, what about a heavily armored aluminum vehicle? Obviously later in the Cosmere timeline, but I would guess a car plated with a thick layer of aluminum would be able to survive the Dor.

There is the problem of getting an armored aluminum car into the Cognitive Realm. Can physical objects of that size pass through a perpendicularity? Or would someone need to use stormlight or some other form of investiture to manifest it from its bead in the Cognitive Realm?

The one that I most want to know more about is ClayShan, since I have always been fascinated by martial arts and it seems to be magical martial arts.

But in terms of which one I would most like to have, it has to be feruchemy. As someone who has suffered from insomnia for years, being able to store wakefulness in a bronzemind would be a game changer. The other feruchemical powers would be really useful in everyday life, too. Never being too hot or too cold again by tapping or storing a brassmind, and of course storing everything you need for school in a coppermind so that you remember everything on the test (and also not completely forget everything after the test). Zincminds would also be helpful. I could slow down my mind when I'm trying to get to sleep, and then have a sharper mind when I need it. Basically I just really want access to the cognitive powers of feruchemy.

The Shin religion, obviously. Stop walking on stones guys!

When Baon was on Roshar looking for Hoid, he eventually made his way to ths Shattered Plains, but not before Hoid had already left. He met Renarin, who seemed to immediately realize that the man Baon wanted him to look for was the King's Wit, and he told Baon about him. But, since Hoid had moved on, so did Baon, though Hoid did return to the Shattered Plains later, in Words of Radiance. Renarin was unsure of Baon's intentions and decided against contacting him to reveal that Hoid had returned.

Lightsong and the Rose Empire

Personally, I'd have to go with a kandra

Dalinar has now seen Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, and all three seem to be human. However, in the Scadrial essay, it is specifically stated that both Ati and Leras were human, and the same is not stated in the Roshar essay, which leads me to wonder whether one or more of the Shards on Roshar were Sho Del or Dragons. I don't know much about the Sho Del; did they or could they look like humans? Or could dragons alter their appearance to appear human?

Roshar and Renarin.

I don't like Nalthis as much, but I love Lightsong

3 hours ago, Bookish Ocelot said:

Jezrerien is the shorter form of Jezerezeh (the proper Alethi symmetric form). Nale -> Nalan. Talenel -> Talenelat. Ishar -> Ishi. Vedel -> Vedeledev. Alll of these are canon, IIRC.

In the Prelude to the Stormlight Archive, the heralds are referred to as Jezrien and Talenel, which I assume means that those were their real names. I assume that Alethi ardents at one point decided that symmetry was holy and changed the names of the heralds to meet their standard of holiness.

59 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

(I'm assuming we're ignoring healing factors)

Yes, I'm thinking just in terms of how they would feel about being quarantined, not whether they are actually at risk.

Given the current covid-19 pandemic, I would like to raise the question: how would your favorite Cosmere characters do in quarantine? I'll go first.

Kaladin would hate it. We see in WoR how he reacts to being in jail. He would get depressed so quickly. Maybe less so if he is quarantined with Bridge Four, but overall I think he would do poorly in quarantine.

Lightsong, on the other hand, would love it! No human contact means he wouldn't have to listen to any petitions. He could be as lazy and useless as he wanted. Of course, he would need to break quarantine to get his weekly Breath, or else he wouldn't last very long.

I found a WoB on this.

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FireArcadia

Is there any use to being a copper Compounder, from a Feruchemical point of view? I think the same point would also apply to an aluminum Compounder.

Brandon Sanderson

Some combinations, like some abilities themselves, aren't really that useful. That said, being able to Compound copper...that could do some things. Aluminum, not so much.

I recently came across this WoB, and as I am currently studying linguistics, I decided to see what insights into the history of Roshar could be gained by analyzing the language families present.

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IneptProfessional

Since you mention languages on Roshar, are there any languages that are completely unrelated to any other on the planet?

Brandon Sanderson

Our basic language families are:

Vorin: Alethi, Veden, Herdazian, and more distantly Thaylen. Natan is close to dead, but shares a root, and Karbranthian is basically a dialect. Other minor languages like Bav are in here.

Makabaki: Azish is king here, and most of the languages around split off this. There are around thirty of these.

Dawnate: A varied language family with distant roots in the dawnchant. Shin, parshendi, Horneater. They share grammar, but they diverged long enough ago that the vocabulary is very different.

Iri: Iriali, Reshi, Purelake dialects, Riran, and some surrounding languages.

Aimian: These two are lumped together, but are very different. Probably what you were looking for.

That isn't counting spren languages, of course. I might have missed something. Typing on my phone without my wiki handy.

First off, I would love to see Brandon's wiki someday, though it doesn't seem likely at least until he finishes writing everything he has planned for the Cosmere.

Comparing the modern Roshar map and the Silver Kingdoms Epoch map, we can see that the following silver kingdoms adopted which languages: 

• Vorin: Rishir, Valhav, Alethela, Natanatan, Thalath 
• Makabaki: Makabakam 
• Iri: Iri, Sela Tales 
• Aimian: Aimia 
• Dawnate: Shin Kak Nish, Valhav (Horneater Peaks)

Makabaki is very straightforward. All humans in that part of the world started in one place with one language. Evidently, the Makabaki people did not extensively travel to or trade with other regions of the world in early history, since their language family is confined to that silver kingdom. The population grew, and they started to spread. As they grew farther apart, communications between the various regions decreased, and eventually the dialects became distinct languages. Basic evolution of language. I would be interested to know which languages in this region are not of Makabaki descent, since Brandon did say "most" of the languages split off that.

Iri is spoken in a part of the world where we have seen very little so far, so this is particularly insightful. The fact that Reshi is part of this language family is especially telling. There must have been extensive sea travel between Iri and the Reshi Isles in early post-Recreance. Whether the Iri people still travel the seas and the Reshi Isles as extensively as they once did is unknown, but I would venture to say that at one point in history at least, Iri and Riran sailors and ships would have rivaled and probably beat the Thaylens.

I had trouble placing Tu Bayla, since we don't know a lot about it and it doesn't seem to quite fit regionally with any of the others. It does border the Purelake, which suggested it could be in the Iri family, but that wasn't enough for me. The short words in front of names (TU Bayla, RU Parat - see the map) seemed similar to a few different things. First off, Tu Fallia, a region separated from Tu Bayla by a mountain range. The exact same word, Tu, seems to suggest a similar background, but I think this may be coincidental. Geographically, there is not much reason to suggest a connection between the two. The closest I came to finding a connection between the two is the silver kingdom Valhav. Valhav almost contained both Tu Bayla and Tu Fallia, but Tu Fallia is just outside its borders, inside Makabakam.

I found other linguistic similarities in Jah Keved and the Purelake. For one thing, the word Jah - a short word included at the start of the nation's name. Similarly, the titles that signify the birth order of sons in Veden culture: NAN Balat, TET Wikim, ASHA Jushu. In the Purelake, the gods NU Ralik and VUN Makak, as well as their villages FU Abra, FU Namir, FU Albast, and FU Moorin. My conclusion - those prefixes are a remnant of the Silver Kingdom Valhav, manifested in the various languages of those places. Valhav included Tu Bayla, much of Jah Keved, and bordered the Purelake and Tu Fallia. So what language is spoken in Tu Bayla? Most likely something from the Iri family, with remnants of the ancient language of Valhav.

Aimian is a tricky one. Some people use it as evidence that Aimians are not native to Roshar, and that could very well be true, but I don't think there is enough linguistic evidence to prove that. Brandon's wording is a better hint than the languages themselves. It makes sense that the island nation would have a separate language family of its own.

Vorin is an odd case. Geographically, it occupies the largest area by far, with much less variation than would be expected. Thaylen is obviously more distantly related since it is an island nation. There is no evidence that Jah Keved hasn't been one nation for thousands of years, so it is feasible that Jah Keved could be united under one language, with regional dialects of course. My main questions concerning the Vorin languages are about Kharbranthian and Alethi. Kharbranthian is "basically a dialect," but a dialect of which Vorin language? I think we can quickly rule out Herdazian and Bav purely on a geographical basis. Though Kharbranth is located in the Frostlands, what anciently was Natanatan, I think it is unlikely that Kharbranthian is a dialect of Natan. If Kharbranthian is still "basically a dialect," then it split off of another language fairly recently, and since Natan is close to dead, it doesn't seem to fit. Thaylen seems like the obvious choice, since it is geographically close, but there is a glaring problem with that. To quote Shallan,

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"I can speak your native Alethi, obviously. I have a passable reading knowledge of Thaylen and good spoken Azish. I can make myself understood in Selay, but not read it." (WoK, ch. 5)

Shallan cannot speak Thaylen, yet she was capable of speaking with people in Kharbranth just fine. That leaves Veden or Alethi. (Shallan doesn't say so to Jasnah, but I assume she can speak Veden. After all, she does say your native Alethi, which implies that it is not Shallan's native language.) Since Kharbranth is geographically closer to Jah Keved than Alethkar, I would guess that Kharbranthian is a dialect of Veden, but that is just an educated guess.

Alethkar was divided into different warring princedoms for much of its history. Logically, each princedom would have developed its own language, yet we see that they all share the Alethi language. My theory about why this is is that when Sadees, the Sunmaker, united Alethkar, he established the language of his princedom as the official language of Alethkar. Not enough time passed between his conquest and Gavilar's for the language to change more than developing different dialects.

As for the Dawnate languages, these are descended from the dawnchant. These are mostly isolated groups of people (Shin, Horneaters, parshendi), and they must have been isolated since ancient times. Of course the parshendi language is descended from the ancient singers' language. The Horneaters must have been isolated in the Horneater Peaks since around the time of or even before the Recreance, I would guess. The truly surprising language in this category is Shin. Shinovar was the original home given to the humans when they came to Roshar. I would have expected they would have brought their own language, not adopted a dawnchant-based language. I don't know why Shin is dawnchant-based; I would love to hear ideas about this in the comments.

You make a lot of great points, but I think the linguistics are inconclusive. There are at least 135 different linguistic families on Earth that are still in use today, and barriers of water very often divide those language families. I would be more surprised if the Aimian languages were related to any languages on the mainland.

That being said, I agree that Aimians are probably not native to Roshar.

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Also aren't presidential debates basically a contest of who can insult the other worst without it being overtly obvious as an insult? So Hoid is fine there.

Yes, but around unintelligent lighteyes and highprinces, his insults become too obvious. I doubt it would be better against any presidential candidate. It's just too easy to insult them! I would like to nominate Lightsong for Vice President. I don't think he cares enough to actually win the presidency, but I would love to see some banter between him and Hoid 

2 hours ago, Nuatoma said:

How to kill the cosmere? Combine the shards Ruin and Ambition or Ruin and Odium.  That'd probably get it done quick.

The only reason this might work is because Ruin is one of the shards in both of your examples, implying that Sazed no longer holds both Ruin and Preservation. Without another vessel holding multiple shards (that we know of yet), either of those shard combinations could probably do the job.

I just want to elaborate on what I said earlier: "I think a character should be a well-developed character first, and LGBT second." What I don't mean is that their gender identity or sexuality should be a glossed over part of their character. Being LGBT should be a defining part of their character, just not the first defining thing about them.

In my experience as an aspiring author, the thing readers will remember most about a character is the first thing to break their imagined norm. In the book I am currently working on, the main character's grandpa is introduced in chapter 2, and the first dialogue he has is the greeting "Ho." I wrote that just as a passing line of dialogue, trying to give him a unique way of speaking. But my alpha readers interpreted him as a chipper old man because of this line, when I actually intended for him to be a very serious character. Now that is the primary way that they remember him.

In our culture, the natural assumption of most readers when picking up a book is that the characters are hetero. If the first thing to break the reader's assumptions is that a character is LGBT, that will be the primary way the character is remembered. If you want heterosexual readers to remember the character as anything but "the gay one," then you have to break their assumptions in another way first.

Let's use Dalinar as an example. The first thing that breaks our assumptions about him is his visions from the Almighty. If he was gay, but it was revealed after that, readers would remember him first as the guy who had visions from the Almighty, and second as gay.

Not sure I want to get mixed up in this discussion, but I am in a good position to understand both sides, so here goes.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, same as Brandon. I understand both the beliefs and the culture that makes him hesitant to write LGBT+ characters. In LDS culture, we typically have less interaction with LGBT people than most people do. I can see why he would want to wait until he has a better understanding of how to write them before having a main LGBT character. I understand that writing an LGBT person badly is worse than not writing them at all.

As a side note, thank you @Elsecaller_17.5 for posting the link to the church's views on LGBT issues.

At the same time, I think it could just be an excuse. Even being LDS, I have had a bit of exposure to LGBT people in my life. My uncle is gay. My sister is transgender. I'm sure Brandon has had enough interaction with LGBT people to be able to write them well. Personally, I would be quicker to forgive an honest blunder in writing an LGBT character than him not writing them. Brandon's work is continually amazing; I'm sure he could pull it off well.

Finally, I have always thought that an LGBT character should be a well-developed character first, and LGBT second. I don't think of my uncle solely as "the gay uncle." I think of him as the fun uncle who is amazing on the piano, makes cool balloon animals, and used to play MarioKart with my siblings and I whenever he came to visit. I think that Brandon does this fairly well with Drehy, and not particularly well with Ranette. I remember Drehy as the quiet bridgeman who kind of just went along with the group, and then as a gay man (probably because I had already reread WoK and WoR before Oathbringer came out). Ranette, on the other hand, I barely remembered as a character (possibly because I was less invested in the Wax and Wayne series) before finding out she was lesbian. I appreciate that he tried though.

On 2/3/2020 at 9:27 PM, Honorless said:

Might want to spoiler Mistborn talk, @Bearer of Agonies, @Renarin Kholin, it's the Stormlight forum

Sorry, I have done so now 

On 2/3/2020 at 6:01 AM, Chalke219 said:

Thay would make sense, in a similar way that Feruchemy is of both Preservation and Ruin

"A story doesn't live until it is imagined in someone's mind... It means what you want it to mean. The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon." - Hoid, The Way of Kings