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11 hours ago, Dunkum said:

I mean sort of low points for the characters, the points when they are at their darkest, most broken, most hopeless. the books tend to lose some of their energy there, and it makes it harder to keep going; at least for me.

Mind you I'm not criticizing that particular choice. like I said, for me I think the Climax of Oathbringer pays all of that off, but that doesn't make it any easier to read the parts where characters are beating themselves up

That makes sense: I also agree that the books seem to be having some of the characters dip further and further each time, which is intentional but uncomfortable for the reader some times. To be honest, I skip a lot of the heaviest parts on rereads, especially for Kaladin.

I also don't criticize that choice; generally after doing Stormlight stuff I reread Skyward stuff. Those are a little more straight action which is a nice break.

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

There is a lot going an with Navani in RoW. Not least of which is the constant threat to the lives of her people (literally right down the hall) as well as the Sibling's approaching death. So, torturous conditions to begin with. On top of that, add decades of trauma from Gavilar..who verbally beat her down into believing that she is really kind of stupid and definitely not worthy of being a "real scholar." Navani is a genius. She may have one of the keenest minds in all of the Cosmere, and yet she'd been made to feel worthless for a very, very long time.

I don't know if anyone on this thread has dealt with that kind of trauma personally, or even tangentially through someone you care about sharing what it's like, but calling Navani the stupidest character in SA as if her life is a vacuum and none of what she has, and is experiencing, are relevant is deeply offensive. It disregards the realities of regular trauma, not to mention the trauma of war. On top of all of that, her opponent was a femalen who is over 7,000 years old and also happens to be a genius. I don't think anyone on this thread could take what Navani did and come out on top. 

As far as not destroying the notebook..it's a literary device. The enemy was going to find anti-light eventually and Sanderson blended Navani into that plot. Personally I would rather her character not be subjected to psychological torture for weeks on end, but it's a book about war, so it is what it is.

Navani most certainly made mistakes, no question, but to come out swinging that she's stupid and should have done better while simultaneously ignoring her life and lived experience is juvenile at best, and cruel at worst.

Thanks for saying this. 

I think people are underestimating the literary device thing a lot. ROW is very, very long. Just keeping it simple in terms of how that information was quantified from a storytelling perspective is a good call. I think Sanderson could have done more to explain that Navani was careful (something more akin to what Shai does in Emperor's Soul), but again, ROW is really long and Sanderson has stated repeatedly that he was really uncomfortable writing so much science into the book.

I also think people misunderstand how fevered creation works. You don't operate rationally. I've done scientific work, and re-examined it a year later to find obvious conclusions that didn't even cross my mind in the first pass. It's not stupidity, it's pre-occupation.

3 hours ago, Dunkum said:

I know the low parts of Oathbringer are very low. I'd argue more so than the two preceding books (actually I think each successive book has lower lows than the prior ones) and personally those were hard to get through at times. that said, for me they make the high points in the climax hit that much harder, so I tend to like it, but I'd guess that may not be a universal opinion.

What do you mean by "low points"? Like difficult to read, or poorly written, or boring?

The difficult to read thing I get. Both OB and ROW get pretty dark at times, especially for folks with personal connections to the various issues explored. 

OB is my favorite so far, though Navani's portions of ROW are my favorite individual passages in any Sanderson thing so far. Science is fun!

For unpopular opinions, I guess I really don't like TLM; it seemed super unfocused.

In terms of whose shades they are, they're probably mostly human:

Timepoint 1: Shortly after shattering. Ambition is hanging out in the system, making a magic system fueled by shades created during rituals. There are humans on both continents, but only the ones on the Forest Continent are using the magic system. We know this happens: 

Timepoint 2: Ambition and Odium clash, and Ambition leaves the system, with big chunks of both shards (and Mercy's shard) being left in the system. With Ambition gone, the magic system changes, and shades become mindless killing machines. They depopulate the forests, turning everything predatory into more shades. A couple of things from Odium's forces are left behind and get turned into shades (the Deepest Ones, probably not human).

Timepoint 3: Forescouts head over to the Forests to check it out, discover the shades.

Timepoint 4: Evil arrives (probably an Aether) and destroys the Homeland, people flee to the Forests.

Worth noting that there are animals in the Forests, just no predators.

Oh boy I think you might be interested in this thread. It's sort of similar to your theory, but instead has the four "big shards" being filtered through each of the dawnshards into the 16 rather than each "big shard" being refracted into four different but similar versions by the same dawnshard.

To pick an example to see if I've gotten it right: one of the big shards could be something like Natural Law. Then we use the "Change" dawnshard (the only one we know about) on that big shard, and get Cultivation, Ruin, Invention, and Endowment. That's a plausible theory. If you instead used the maybe extant "Unite" dawnshard, you'd get some way different stuff.

I think if someone has some real knowledge of what the individual notes and colors were for all the shards, you could probably generate some serious proof/negative proof for this empirically. Some of this already exists in SP3:

Two other interesting questions: First, what happens if you use a dawnshard to shatter a shard again. Would you end up with 4 "mini shards"? Second, what would happen if you used the same dawnshard on all 4 of "big shards" and the other three just twiddled their thumbs?

5 hours ago, alder24 said:

Don't focus too much on Invested Arts connection with a Shard. What does Allomancy has to do with Preservation? Or Sand Mastery with Autonomy?  On the first glance almost nothing. Ember people's connection with this Shard might be similar.

Not sure I agree on that. Preservation is on the weaker side in terms of connection between the art and the stated intention, though generally an End-positive art is probably on the preservation side of thing since you'd need one to fight against entropy to maintain a status quo.

On the other hand, Ruin has an art very in line with his intention; the surges also make a lot of sense. All of them fall within the general guidelines of binding (honor/bind dawnshard) or changing (cultivating/change dawnshard). 

Sand Mastery makes a ton of sense as Autonomy! Brandon states in the postscript in Arcanum Unbounded that sand mastery is all about skill and finesse, not power. Those things are the soul of autonomy in my mind. 

We now know from SP3:

I think we can do some eliminating:

Devotion, Dominion, Preservation/Ruin/Harmony, Endowment, Ambition, Whimsy, Honor, Virtuosity and Mercy all seem very unlikely based on either their names or their status prior to SP4. That leaves:

Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, Invention, Valor, and the Unknown.

From what we've seen of Cultivation, it seems unlikely, but not quite as unlikely as some of the others. Odium could definitely fit, and he has some experience with heart-based investiture; this definitely seems like a cruel harsh world. He lived on Braize for a ton of time so he'd feel at home. All that said, he isn't big on granting any form of investiture so far (though that could change with Todium). Voidbinding is really rare compared to something like Allomancy.

I think the unknown is unlikely unless it has a different intent than we're expecting (wisdom). 

The point about Valor is a good one, I could see that being likely, same with Autonomy. Autonomy is also already an active shard (as opposed to totally unknown like Valor), and is known to have a fondness for places that force humans to be strong or die. Invention could be possible, mostly because Invention seems like a shard who could be in a lot of places. 

Definitely some cosmere spoilers

I don't think Virtuosity was committing suicide. While the tortured artist trope exists, I think this is different: Yumi's society is highly self sacrificing. While that could be a revisionist interpretation of a suicide, I think it's more likely that Virtuosity splintered herself for a reason beyond their own troubles. It could have been a consequence of an act to protect the world, or it could have been something else. 

Personally, without much support, I think they splintered themselves to provide the massive quantities of raw investiture required for "a planet when a god has been killed" stuff to happen. Seems like a very unique and powerful version of patronage of the arts to me. What better way to allow for art than to give a bunch of artists the fabric of the universe to play with? 

On 12/8/2022 at 5:32 PM, Oltux72 said:

Optimist. They are all dead but Sigzil. Now you can be sad.

On 3/30/2023 at 1:59 AM, Newly Awakened said:

How do you know? And is Kaladin still alive if all the others are dead? I mean he never had Bridge Four tattoos anyway.

Just worth noting that SP4 probably takes place at some point after which most of bridge 4 has died of natural causes. Kal definitely has some sort of interesting fate planned, so he might be "alive" after some fashion. Sigzil similarly seems to be more in the "special case" category that the natural aging category. While it's sad to think of our favorite characters dying, it's just part of life for 99.99999% of people in the cosmere.

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

Right. Shallan attached a lightweaving to Pattern's Physical aspect; Hoid attached the lightweaving to Design's Cognitive aspect. What I was disagreeing with was this part:

This isn't the lightweaving's parts attached to sections of Design's Physical aspect (which is confined to moving across physical surfaces); rather - the lightweaving's "hands" are attached to her cognitive "hands" (legs, torso, etc.). Design's Physical aspect is probably "riding" in the lightweaving's "head" - which is why she comments on what would happen if that portion went away and the Komashi residents saw her normal manifestation. 

That makes sense!

On 7/7/2023 at 4:00 PM, Underwater_Worldhopper said:

Edit: But if Yoki-Hijo are more Invested than Returned, how come they aren't ageless? Yumi and the 13 other Yoki-Hijo don't seem to be immortal (at least prior to becoming Cognitive Shadows, at which point they obvious were)

I think it's worth noting that Returned aren't ageless. They initially start at the fifth heightening in terms of investiture, but cognitive shadows by nature don't seem to age.

Non-cognitive shadows with the fifth heightening or Elantrians, who are both supposed to be ageless, are better examples to ask this question (which is a great question) with.

Possible causes:

1. Their level of investiture changes over time, allowing them to age when it dips below a certain point.
2. Yoki-Hijo aren't super crazy invested when they weren't cognitive shadows (or maybe Yumi's insane stacking rocks skills have let her accumulate investiture over 1700 years).
3. The Yoki-Hijo (not Yumi after being brought back to life, since they are probably different) are immortal/ageless when they want to be. It's implied that they were imprisoned if they didn't do their duty. I think there is a WOB which says that ageless folks can choose to stop being ageless if they want. It is implied that the number of Yoki-Hijo changes, since they say "currently 14" a lot. Also, the tone of Yumi's self image isn't really consistent with this, but it's a option at least.

On 7/22/2023 at 8:59 AM, Treamayne said:

The only problem with that theory is that he specifically said it attached to her Cognitive Aspect, and as we saw in OB and RoW - the Cryptics have a full body in the Cognitive (with a symbol head). In YNP, design says she wants people to freak if her lightweaving mask should fail and reveal her "symbolhead."

This likely means it is related to how Shallan could draw the Cognitive Aspect of a Cryptic in the Physical Realm in WoK (Taravangian's Portrait).

I'm not sure that it's off-base. In WoR, Shallan attaches lightweavings to Pattern's pattern to move around and act as a distraction. I think Pattern's pattern could be classified as Pattern's cognitive element as it manifests in the physical realm. In Stormlight they talk about pattern's pattern being maddening outside of the CR too. 

I'm pretty sure Shallan has some special stuff going on in the art department; even as a lightweaver she still does some other stuff with her art that is a little bit outside of the scope of what we've seen other lightweavers do. Also, we know that Elsecallers have the ability to see the cognitive elements of spren in the PR at least some of the time (Yasnah at the Battle of Thalyen Field); so that might be something that all lightweavers can do. I'm sure folks here have categorized whether her ability to see the Cognitive Cryptics is a Lightweaver thing or a Shallan thing.

I think the force projections are really the unknown element here: we've seen them in Elantris (in the climax when Raoden makes forcefields), but I think that's the only spot. My guess: the lightweaving forms a framework (a wireframe) and Hoid stapled a bunch of forcefields together to provide the "mass" behind it. Basically the lightweaving lets Hoid use his internalized knowledge of the human form (much like the lightweavers creating human illusions without all being trained artists). Once the outline is there, he can do the more precise math based stuff like the forcefields with precision: kind of like the opposite of putting a template over something you're going to spray paint in order to get crisp(ish) lines.  It helps that we know lightweavings can generate some of the other sensory information (like sound and heat, also probably lasers)) that might give away a positronic robot wearing a human suit.

On the other hand: 

On 7/17/2023 at 2:12 PM, Zackarcanum said:

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW IN THE WORLD DESIGN HAS A PHYSICAL BODY?? AND DOES THIS MEAN THAT IN STORMLIGHT 5 SYL WILL ALSO FIND A WAY TO MANIFEST INTO PHYSICAL FORM AND BE WITH KALADIN??

Syl gives Kal a hug in Oathbringer when they're both in the Cognitive Realm. If you're Kal and really jonesing for a hug from your friend you can take a jaunt through an Oathgate and say hi! Little harder if you're Syl, but I think she is sufficiently capable at annoying Kal until he does what she wants, so she could probably get him to. I think their bigger problem is the lack of time for hugs: A notorious problem when you're important.

I think some of your concerns are valid about the book. As the quoted sections show, I think that the implication is that certain individuals are born with naturally more willpower: the spirits (who are splinters of a god who probably would be good at identifying potential via futuresight (Virtuosity)), presumably can detect this and invest them. The investiture gives them the ability to mechanically resist the machine, while their natural willpower gives them the inclination to do so.

I think it's implied that Liyun believes that suffering breeds strength. She doesn't necessarily want Yumi to be in pain, but clearly sees it as necessary for Yumi to be the best Yoki-hijo possible (hence the years of abuse). Part of Yumi's growth is discovering that Liyun is wrong, and that she and her sister yoki-hijo don't need this suffering to drive them.

Regarding the "what does Yumi see in painter" question: Brandon Sanderson is an artist. He wrote this book for his wife. I think he may have unintentionally downplayed the positive characteristics of Painter out of self-consciousness. Very minor cosmere spoiler ahead:

While I don't know you @KaladinWorldsinger, you say you identify with and understand why Painter does what he does. If you do (like I do), it might be worth pointing out that Painter has struggles with self worth. If you see him as a stand in for yourself to some degree, and also struggle with self worth, it might be difficult for you (like it was for me) to see him as worthy of someone like Yumi. 

Last thing I'd say, if you get literal sparks when touching someone, even if it's through magical means, you probably are going to be inclined to be interested in them. I wouldn't disagree that it's a literary cheat to give this as a reason for two people to be together, but it is a reason nonetheless. 

5 minutes ago, The Sibling said:

I mostly liked the ending. To be honest, I wasn't a super huge fan of the Shroud. I found that imagining this sort of dull city with hardly any light and a pretty restrictive color scheme was less fun then imagining Yumi's cities with floating plants and cold springs. When the Shroud went away at the end, it just seemed like a b=natural ending to the story. The problems that I do have with the ending are mostly about Yumi's survival. I really, really liked her character. I'm not sure why, because it seems like a lot of people didn't, but I found that I loved the way she had grown so much by the end of the book. Her sacrifice was such an important piece or her arc, and it seemed so pointless when she just came back. Other than that, I liked the ending. The epilogue was nice. Even though some people don't like happy endings, and I kind of wanted a sad one, the epilogue fit so well with the tone of the book taht it left me satisfied.

I really liked the book, but didn't like the pacing of the ending: it has to do with the Hoidism of telling the story where all the stuff you care about is in the epilogues because he's the important part in his own story. It felt like the whole story, which I loved, was marginalized as part of a tourism ad for the planet. 

I do think the sacrifice component is a little overblown: part of Yumi's development is learning that she doesn't have to sacrifice herself for her society like she has been. She's a person who deserves to live and love without such an immense burden. I think leaving it at her "getting over" her objections to sacrificing herself is kind of diminutive of her journey. Plus there is Painter's journey to consider. One of his big conflicts in the book is that he lets himself be unhappy through inaction. He doesn't fight to earn his friends' trust back, and he doesn't fight to be good at his job. A big part of his growth is that he stops deluding himself into thinking he doesn't have agency. He makes the choice to pull Yumi back into reality because he can.

As far as the deaths of central characters, I think Sanderson is really careful about the concept of resurrection, but it's a huge part of the Cosmere theme (i.e. what if normal people had godlike power). For many of us, a big ticket on the god-power bucket list would be to bring back loved ones. Each time it happens, which I think is 3 times (people spoilered since you're new):

he makes sure to keep the divine fiat in clear view. I don't think that literally everyone who dies is "just chilling in the CR" until their story beat shows up. With the potential exception of Yumi (who I think thematically has to live) it's always a huge twist of fortune to have them survive or return. Plus Sanderson likes paying his characters for their suffering with some happiness:

If you think of the body count Sanderson has wracked up, I'm pretty sure he's not over-using the resurrection stuff.

This is similar to something in Stormlight, when Shallan draws people in their "best" form rather than what they are.

The way I thought of it is that Painter, as a Cognitive Shadow, harnessed his spiritual connection to painting and paintbrushes to summon one that was more real than just channeling the soul of a paintbrush. 

Minor somewhat suspect SP4 spoiler

Just finished the Novella. 

This was too much information, not just on a Roshar scale, but a cosmere scale. Why is this a novella? Seems like we got the ostensible answers to:

1. How Adonalsium was killed
2. What the Dawnshards are
3. The sleepless - their activities in general
4. Larkins
5. The scouring of Aimia
6. Yalb (kinda weird to put some random dude in the same category as how God was killed)
7. Windrunner Third Ideal Deep Dive
8. The Sighted (Horneaters)
9. Luck Spren fixing the mass problem (and by extension, how Rock drew the shardbow)
10. Definitely more that I am missing.

We are missing a lot of smaller details to these answers, but the general overarching questions are partially answered.

This is way more than we usually get; pretty much the most information we got about the inner workings of the Cosmere since Secret History. 

Some of this stuff seems so important that I'd be surprised if they don't have to explicitly repeat it in a future Stormlight book.

What do other people think; is this too much information? Or did we just get the hanging ends of all these questions?

Note: This isn't a strict complaint, just an observation.

Just now, Eternal Khol said:

I just don’t see Vax being a person. Khriss mentions it/them in the “initiation” section of the Ars Arcanum. So unless Vax has their very own magic system and their own way to initiate it, then it’s not a person.

The Vax that Ati is talking about could be different from the Vax that Khriss is talking about. That's the basis of my point.

I think we can agree, that if they are different things, then the naming is not coincidental.

Given the circumstances and the two speakers, it seems like the Vax that Ati mentions predates the Vax that Khriss mentions. 

We know that the Vax that Khriss mentions is a place. As Ati-Vax predates Khriss-Vax, we can't assume anything about Ati-Vax from her statement. I.e. A implies B, but B doesn't imply A.

That leaves only the situation in which Ati says "Vax?" which I've argued seems like a person's name.

15 minutes ago, Elegy said:

I'm reluctant to repeat what I wrote a page ago, but ... given that Vax is listed in a row with planets, planets and planets in the Elantris Ars Arcanum makes it highly unlikely that it's anything else than a planet as well - not to mention a place. Sure, it's certainly possible to twist around the words so that it might mean something else (like a person) under certain circumstances, but I don't see why Khriss would phrase it in such a counterintuitive way in those cases.

Just to be clear: I think it is safe to assume that Vax is currently (Ars Arcanum time of writing) at least a planet (or of planet-like significance, like the only habitable city on a planet, or a habitable sub-astral more significant than the Ire Keep in Secret History, or the largest continent on Yolen). 

However, circumstance is important. There is a Washington street in my city. If Benjamin Franklin is saying "Washington" there is a solid chance his is talking about George Washington. If I say "Washington" there is a solid chance I am talking about the street in my city, or the city in my country, or the state in my country. This example speaks to exactly how Vax could refer to a person at one time, and a place at another time. In fact, I could even be talking about George Washington if I was to say "Washington." This further muddles the certainty that Ati is referring to place-Vax vs. person-Vax.

I do definitely agree that Khriss at least was referring to a place when she wrote the Ars Arcanum. I don't agree that her writing proves Ati was talking about a place.

21 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

i think i saw a WoB or something that said that Leras would recognize Vax. that paired with the WoB that most shards have been to plenty of other worlds before settling.

i think its safe to say that Leras was there too

 

Diego98 (paraphrased)

Would Leras recognize Vax or is it just like some Ati backstory??

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah, he would recognize Vax.

Madrid signing (July 16, 2019)

You're right, forgot about that one. Same issue applies that it may have been a person, not a place.

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Ati might have considered himself to be in the CR (for reason of death). So the similarity may be to Vax or the subastral of Vax.

I do think Ati probably realized that he was on a subastral. That doesn't imply that he was addressing Vax based on the fact that he was on a particular subastral. Again, it doesn't seem natural to me to just address a place when you appear there suddenly. Like I wouldn't say "White House?!" if I was transported there instantaneously. If Abraham Lincoln was right in front of me when I appeared, I would probably say, "Lincoln?!" 

It might be true that he believed that he could link the subastral to an individual; and that individual would possibly respond to a summons. That points me an ascended individual. Either that, or we are back to talking about a name applying to both a person and a place (with an implied link).

It's also very possible that this was just a poorly written piece of dialog which didn't take into account the natural reaction of a person to appearing suddenly in an unknown place. It is a relatively early Sanderson work. I tend to ere on the side of Sanderson knowing exactly what he is doing though, and his coy-ness about calling Vax a place makes me think that there is more to it.

Quote

For all we know it is a continent or country on Yolen.

If it is just a place, I'm guessing that a continent/place on Yolen is possible. There is a little bit of background here. Not to get off topic here, but Ati and Leras seemed super close friends (with a possible romantic angle, which is how I choose to read the situation). So while we can safely assume any gathering of 5+ shards implies Yolen; I think that just the two of them travelling around together and encountering a place or person called Vax before creating Scadrial is also possible. There is definitely a WoB which says that most of the shards wandered around before settling down.

1 minute ago, Honorless said:

Why don't we lay down what we know:

1) A place (no matter how hard Brandon tries to obfuscate things)

2) Method of initiation into the magic system is different from Scadrial, Nalthis, Taldain or Sel (especially/specifically Elantris)

3) Preservation & Ruin have visited the world, most likely before creating Scadrial

4) Most likely a major Shardworld with how its magic is compared & contrasted, though might not be a 'world' in the conventional sense given Brandon's insistence

5) possibly has some similarities with Scadrial's subastral, eliciting a response from Ati

I'm not sure we know that 3 is correct. We do know that at least Ati interacted with or knew of something called Vax at some point (probably before Scadrial).

I do agree with 4, except for the major part. It may be major however, we just don't know. Seems likely that it is an invested place at the very least.

On 5, it is worth noting the time differential. Ati was not sane until he was separated from the shard of Ruin. He is unclear on how much time has passed between his arrival on Scadrial and his death.

I think I've mentioned it already, but it would be weird if you woke up in an unknown place and just shouted "New York!" That makes me consider that Ati thinks he is addressing an individual. Given the time differential, we could be dealing with a place named after a person (who could be a shard/invested and still alive).  

Last thing, I think we have a WoB stating that Vax is not Hoid, but if it is a place only, that doesn't mean much.

On 11/22/2019 at 11:16 AM, Pathfinder said:

It does not for you. I guess we will have to wait till we learn more from the heralds, or see Taln's and Shallash's flashbacks before we bury this hatchet. 

Conjecture is basing assertions without any information that could support it. I provided information that I believe supports it. You disagree which is your right, but that does not make it conjecture. 

The WoB provided earlier stated that before honor died, the honorblades drew directly from the shard. Honor is currently dead, so current honorblades cannot draw directly on the shard. That is why they are inefficient in using stormlight. The honorblades never needed to be conservative before. If you have an unending power source, you do not focus your design of a machine for efficiency. You design it for power. So Nale, with an honorblade as they currently are, after the death of honor, would not be an auto win button. However they are still a threat because if a certain someone :::cough:::: Dalinar :::cough cough:::: can restore the shard of honor, then the honorblades would work as they once did again, and then the heralds become a clear and present danger. So Odium is preemptively taking them off the board.

Let us take a look at what we have seen from Odium so far:

1. general parsh

We can say that the general parsh are worth about half of what the collective humans are (since they are basically untrained at the beginning). But humans are split about 70% coalition to 30% odium assuming all neutral parties join the coalition. So it's roughly a wash between general humanity and general parsh. 

2. gravitation fused

3. abrasion fused

4. illumination fused

5. potentially progression or cohesion fused (the fused that alters its carapace)

I think in general it's fair to assume the Fused have access to all Surges except for one. That one is up for debate, but it probably isn't division or transformation, as we have seen those in Yelig-nar and other fused.

6. Yelig-nar in faulty vessels

Not sure that Yelig-nar can have a non-faulty vessel. Maybe a better one, but it seems to me that he probably kills whoever he inhabits eventually. Not that I have evidence for that.

7. unguided Nergaoul

I think this is as guided as Nergaoul and the other mindless unmade can get. Basically Odium can get them to move, but not more.

8. scared, fragmented, missing something Re-shephir

Others have mentioned that her "unmaking" is the missing something. She was scared and fragmented. An infinite army of monsters is pretty powerful as is though, even if they are weak to radiants.

9. a taste of Sja-anat

I don't think she is enough under Odium's thumb to be considered part of his power.

10. a taste of Ashertmarn

I think that's all there is to Ashertmarn. He basically destroys a city, so that's enough as it is.

11. a taste of Moelach

I don't think we have gotten any real Moelach. We know what he does passively, but haven't seen him do anything super scary yet.

12. two thunderclasts with specific missions (the gemstone reserve, the oathgate) ignoring everything else

Since we have the Everstorm, and we know the fused are reborn there, and that Thunderclast are ancient warped singers (or at least Venli thinks they are), we have infinite thunderclasts. That seems pretty bad to me.

 

Now lets see what we have not seen:

1. the other forms the fused have

2. Ba-Ado-Mishram

Since she is supposed to be the most powerful, and we have seen some of the others, she is pretty powerful threat waiting in the wings. I don't think Odium has the ability to deploy her yet, since he probably would do that ASAP. She was supposed to be a leader.

3. Dai-Gonarthis

Supposedly destroyed Aimia. Thats pretty bad news.

4. Chemoarish

I'm pretty sure he is destroying Shinovar with a plague or famine. So thats pretty bad.

5. Yelig-nar in a true vessel

Maybe.

6. Re-Shephir with whatever Shallan felt she was missing

Maybe.

7. Sja-anat doing whatever terrified the radiants most about her (which we do not know)

I think this is the potential for corrupting true-spren. Which she has now done. I think she is actually going to end up as an asset to the radiants. Seems like it might level the playing field.

8. Ashertmarn not just setting a trap but fully fighting

I don't know if he can actually do this.

9. Moelach doing his full deal and not just causing the death rattles from his presence

Ya this is another unknown threat. Might be that he is just a propaganda machine though. We don't know how combat oriented the unmade are.

10. the fused that bonded Venli's lover and friends

I dont think that those guys are too much worse than average fused. Probably worse, but not too much.

I added some extra stuff in bold. I tend to think that Odium doesn't have the win completely locked up and has just been waiting to show off how in-hand the situation was. The biggest reason for this is that is isn't interesting. It makes for more interesting writing when we have more equal footing. We definitely haven't seen all of his power, but I think we have seen a good amount of it.

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The honorblades acts the same way. It says what abilities the herald gets. The heralds get direct access to a shard's power. You can lash an object however many times you want so long as you have the stormlight to do so. If there is no limit on the stormlight, there is no limit to how much you lash. What you can soulcast is limited by how much stormlight you have (as a radiant). As per WoB, a radiant in a highstorm can soulcast whatever they want. If you had the honorblade that gave you transformation, there would be no limit on what you could soulcast. This naturally extends from one to the other for me.

It's possible that this is basically proof that the Honor blades did not give access to functionally infinite investiture. Or if they did, Honor controlled the flow as to not open himself up to direct conflict with Odium. With the kind of power you correctly state they would have with functionally infinite investiture, it seems unlikely they could lose. So maybe we should look at it like that?

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There is moment in WoR  where Eshonai began to transform. Into Stormform , she looked up at Stormfather and said , “ you had once been a friend before you betrayed us “ ( I’m paraphrasing I don’t remember the exact words ) 

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Eshonai preferred a shield. It felt more like facing the Rider straight on. This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather - and he was not one of her people’s gods. In fact, the songs named him a traitor - a spren who had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners

This is the passage you mentioned I think (she repeats this thought to the Stormfather, but it is the same information). That betrayal seems unconnected to the changing of forms, but I suppose that it could be the betrayal, or part of the betrayal, that is mentioned in the Song of Spren.

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This is why I believe they speak of Stormfather . I have no information about the listeners or Singers ever worshiping Honor and Cultivation . If you are referring to the Ele estele I think you have made a mistake . The Singers three gods were Stormfather , Nightwatcher , and The Spren of the Stone . When Honor and Cultivation arrived they co-0pted all three and those three told the singers to accept human kind . Not realizing that they were under the thrall of Honor and Cultivation the Singers accepted human kind . 

This is not correct. The Gods of the Dawnsingers were, probably, Cultivation and Honor. We don't have a direct statement, but we know that The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and presumably the Sibling (or the spren of stone), were not quite sentient before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation. I have a hard time believing that they could have commanded the Dawnsingers. We have no evidence that the Dawnsingers were not aware that Honor and Cultivation were present and guiding the three spren, if the three spren did directly address them.  In the Eila Stele, they refer to their gods, and to spren, stone, and wind. They aren't saying the spren, stone, and wind are their gods. And in the passage with Eshonai directly states that the Stormfather was not a God of the Listeners at least. The Gods of the Listeners were their ancestors, and by extension Odium (the Listeners feared their gods, and worked against their return. They did refer to them as gods however).  To me, it seemed the Dawnsingers worshiped the spren of the planet before Honor and Cultivation arrived, and then worshiped Honor and Cultivation. There was a lot of years between the arrival of Honor and Cultivation and the arrival of Odium. The wiki at least explicitly states that Honor was a god of the Dawnsingers.

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I believe the Singers lost access to Stormfather which robbed them of the ability to change forms . Enter Odium , who promised new forms so they accepted . The Desolations began etc

I doubt it. They still used forms without power after Odium arrived, and those forms were taken during the Highstorm. The Everstorm didn't even exist, so they had to change forms during the Highstorm until the arrival of Everstorm. It is possible that the only reason we see Parshmen change during the first Everstorm is that it was restoring their identities. I.E. They were in a form before the False Desolation, and when BAM was imprisoned, they turned to slaveform. When the Everstorm arrived, they returned to the form that was still part of their identity (more accurately, a form that was part of their parent's identity, or one that they had become marginally closer too during their years as slaves, or just a random form). We don't have any information that a Parshman can change between the common forms during a Everstorm, only that they can ascend to become a fused only during the Everstorm.

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After thousands of years the listeners finally came out of dullforn and found Honor dead which gave them access to Stormfather again . They began trying to rediscover thier forms and could only manage 5 at the time if way of Kings

We don't know how long passed before the Listeners regained the ability to change out of Dullform, but it was only about 2000 years (according to Jasnah) between the current day and the False Desolation. I doubt they were formless for more than 100 years, since living in Dullform for that long in the danger of the Shattered Plains would kill them pretty quickly.

9 minutes ago, Obnoxiousspren said:

I’m sorry, but for some reason your post made me think of...

... which cracked me up!

That's a rough comparison to swallow lol.

Pattern, Syl, and Wyndle. Not as big on Ivory, but we haven't seen him as much. Nightblood is also there (although it isn't his only appearance, I like him better with Szeth than Vasher. Vasher never seemed to take him seriously as a consciousness, but Szeth treats him as more of an equal).

The spren don't get enough love.

To me, these kind of characters are what makes the SA great. Lot of books have magic, but only some have magic plus a glowy/shapey/viney/inky/smoky friend that comes with.

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

I would not be surprised if by SA4 lopen is running around having one-armed soldiers as his potential squires.. I think that there is depth to him which he tries to hide behind all the jokes..

Seems likely to me that he'll be doing that or something similar.

Honestly, Zigsil asks Kaladin a bunch of questions in OB about how the radiants are supposed to work, and I was a little disappointed we don't get some resolution on that. There will have to be some discussion on what their place in the world is. Now that we have multiple radiants, we'll hopefully see some different approaches being tried.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Jasnah is currently slotted for 10. Ash and Taln are 8 and 9 I believe... 

That said, I don't think everything is going to wait for the back half. The Heralds and the Oathpact, the creation of the blades sure. The mechanics of how the blades work? That'd already important. 

Ya you're right. Either way it'll be a long wait. There are two semi-conflicting WoB on the subject of when this information will be revealed:

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ParadoxicalWims

Could the Heralds be considered the splinters or would it be the Honourblades they once held? Or perhaps are they something else entirely?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a RAFO, more because I don't want to dig into the nature of the Heralds until the second five books, and would rather not have people's eyes on them too much right now.

/r/books AMA 2015 (Aug. 31, 2015)

 

versus

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faragorn

You mentioned in a signing that all the heralds are insane. My question is about how they got that way.

Were they insane at the moment they gave up their swords? Was it more from being tortured?

Or, was it a direct consequence of giving up the oathpact?

A third possibility is that being alive for millenia tends to crack you up. Do they even sleep? Not sleeping would really do it.

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, I'm afraid. We have heralds as main viewpoint characters. I'll let the narrative do the explaining on these questions.

emailanimal

Brandon, what is the rough timeline for us to learn more about the Oathpact? Is this something that will come out when the Heralds become flashback characters in the back five books, or will there be more information in the earlier books?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, I'm afraid.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Dec. 15, 2016)

Both are old, and both are vague.