FeltWillSaveUs

After posting a therory on Kel world hopping to Roshar, I reread secret history again trying to only focus on who the character of Kel is becoming. 

Secrets have always been his thing and Kel doesn't want to be surprised because of his cosmere ignorance again. So, I think he will search out every secret that he can. So, in that way, I could see him working with or running a con on any shard or other power that he comes across. So, he could seem to be associated with Trell, but I agree with the others that Kel wouldn't be in alliance with a force that opposes Scadrial in some way.

On 21/09/2018 at 4:48 PM, RShara said:

Um. Men in The Final Empire do that when they are interested in courting the girl. So no.

We don't know the context of the situation. So maybe?

On 21/09/2018 at 4:48 PM, RShara said:

Another soul that's exactly the same as your own, with the same memories and experiences. Not someone else's

As arclo explains, those memories and experiences are passed on through the brain structures of the person. That is why it is so hard to disprove.

On 21/09/2018 at 4:48 PM, RShara said:

Because she's been a thief her whole life. She's not that much younger than Vin in the beginning of TFE at this point.

That's a great point. Vin was with a thieving crew and still wasn't as good at Lift solo. Lift pulls off most of her thieving tricks without investiture, whereas Vin needed it.

On 21/09/2018 at 4:48 PM, RShara said:

Even if he meant "as of the last time we saw Kel," the last time we saw him active was during Era 2. And Era 2 happens after Stormlight 5.

I do need to reread era 2, but when did we see Kel on screen?

On 21/09/2018 at 4:43 PM, Calderis said:

Considering we've seen hints of him in Era 2, (which starts at minimum in the gap between Stormlight 5 and 6) and he's supposed to be a big player in the events of Era 3, I think this is flat out "as far as you guys have seen" WoB

I am working on a reread of era 2. But, when is he active exactly in the series? Doesnt Harmony make a comment about not seeing Kelsier in a while?

1 hour ago, Yata said:

It is a bit weird to explain but one thing is the Investiture that compose someone and one thing is the connection to some Shard.

Kel when he was alive he had a strong Connection to Preservation (after all he is a Mistborn) but still this Connection to Preservation was relative small compared to his connection to Ruin (that come of nothing more than his mindset). When Kelsier died....mostly nothing changed, until he was struck at the Well. He expends one year (or maybe two, I can't remember) into the Well assorbing Preservation's Investiture.

From Brandon a Cognitive Shadow (Kel in our case) happens when someone is so Invested that the Investiture replace his actual Soul (that is still made of Investiture but... some loosely connected one, Honestly I can't define what is different from the average Soul's investiture and the CS's one) and the Investiture now part of the SHadow is tied to the Realms and allows to this new being to survive and resist the Beyond.
Returning to Kelsier, whatever he was composed before (51% Preservation, 49% Ruin for example) is now no more, as his own being is simply the result of the Preservation's Investiture obtained at the Well that replace his old self.

 

 

We know Kel is messing around the hemalergy, which is of ruin. So, I still think we can't say he is 100% preservation. Can't that also Pierce and change a spirit web?

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Yep, here it is:

 

If I read the quote from Brandon, I think the implication is that Kel will find a way off world at some point. So, then the timeline context is important for the quote. Had he not figured it out that last time we saw him? I could read that quote as saying "he hasn't figured it out on screen yet" 

Everyone makes some good points! I'm just happy to have a place where I can talk about the cosmere!

On 9/18/2018 at 11:25 AM, RShara said:

Good point. We get an entire novella from Lift's PoV and no mention of anything like that.

You right there is nothing overt, but I think there are some clues.

Lift tells a story early on about when she saved a guy from prison. He gave her a hankerchief and let her stay in his den for 5 days. Who gives hankerchiefs out as gifts? Men from the final emipre. 

When lift is talking to the assassin, she agrees that it is better to be a killer of Kings than of nobodies.

Also we have the story from arclo. He talks about this interesting philosophy, but his point at the end is: How do you know that you are the same you as yesterday? You would never know if a different soul came to enhabit your body. 

Lastly, she knows so much about thieving the entire book. The tailing, planning, scheming, she seems too good at it. It seems like she was trained somehow in her travels the past few years.

On 9/20/2018 at 1:13 AM, Yata said:

Yeah for Lift to be bonded with Kel doesn't make sense to start with.

But if we want to push for evidence aganist.

Nobody between Lift herself, Wyndle (someone junctioned to her soul), the Stormfather (who realized in a moment the ties she has with the Old magi), Rock (able to see always cognitive entities) seems no notice this foreign ghost attached to her.

Notice also that Kelsier is a sociopath murder while Lift is a pacifist who isn't even able to gave an edge to her blade.

Last, Kelsier as CS is something composed at 100% of Preservation. No Ruin investiture in him... It's not really relevant but just to clarify

I thought kel's issue with taking up preservation's shard was that he was too much of ruin. He wasn't able to fully wield the power. So, how is he 100% preservation?

The stormfather mentions that the old magic "went to far" but what did he mean by that? 

I don't remember when she meets rock, where is that?

2 hours ago, RShara said:

The point being, she didn't give any of that to Lift.

Haha ok, I can see that you aren't convinced.

4 hours ago, RShara said:

And yeah, you're skipping over Kelsier's need to meddle, the caste situation on Roshar, and Brandon saying he doesn't want the greater Cosmere to be a factor for Stormlight Archive.

I think Kel would still be bothered a little bit by the caste system on Roshar, but he would have grown in 300 years. Not to mention he was the God of the southern scadrians. So, he got a taste of being on top, he might not be so consumed by that any more. We had elements of him getting over that prejudice already.

I think Kelsier is meddling! Just by being involved with Lift and teaching her things she shouldn't know. Like how she pops into dalinar's visions.  

There are lots of world hoppers on Roshar, plenty of them are making a big splash. That is a very broad comment that is difficult too argue what it does or doesn't mean.

I appreciate all the words of Sanderson, because I really only read the books. I haven't read all of the Sanderson quotes. They give me more to think about.

In regards to the theory, Lift isn't being preserved at all, as we can tell because she is growing. Rather she was joined to an entity that is made from preservation and ruin. So, she wasn't granted what she asked for, but given the raw powers she described to the night watcher/cultivation. 

"I want to stay the same" =preservation

"I want to see the world change around me"= ruin 

How can the night watcher or cultivation grant such a request? Cultivation is about growth, it is outside of the shards ability to keep things the same. Unless there happens to be a cognitive shadow that is made up of those powers. Perhaps one that is looking to be tied to roshar for a while to learn secrets and get into trouble. And lift is getting into plenty of trouble!

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

The Sovereign appeared in southern Scadrial within a decade of the Catacendre. He's had a body for a couple hundred years more than Lift has been alive. 

True true, that is a hard one to get around. But that was likely someone or something that was spiked right? Not nessessary a body for Kel. He could be looking for other secrets still.

On 9/13/2018 at 11:22 AM, RShara said:

Lift is actually changing. She's growing up physically and mentally. So she's not being "preserved" in that sense.

Kelsier is a Cognitive Shadow, so he would have a really hard time leaving Scadrial. Kelsier's also a busybody and a meddler, and can't help but make a big splash. Plus his hatred of nobility, and the strict lighteye/darkeye caste system on Roshar would definitely tick him off. There's no way he would be able to have been on Roshar and not....done things. Visible things.

The greater cosmere is still supposed to be mostly in the background for Stormlight. Having a character from another series influencing a (eventually) major character would really mess that up. You'd end up needing to read Mistborn all the way through Secret History to know who this entity is, which is something Brandon does not want to happen yet.

Thanks for hearing me out! You make some good points. 

Lift is changing because she didn't get the boon she wanted. She asked to stay the same, but instead got a little piece of preservation. 

I imagine Kel came through shardsmar with demoux. I mean demoux has to have a few spikes to be living still. Kel would have had to stay at the perpendicularity though. Then, when lift came along he got a chance to move around Roshar.

I get the light eyes point,but I think he is more concerned about secrets now. And think of all the different ways that cognitive shadows can get into neq bodies or get their old bodies back on Roshar. That would be the most interesting thing to Kel right now.

I am not a writer, so I can't comment on the last point. I think that can be handled other ways.

There are 10 spren types that can create knights radiant. So maybe the heart beats are cycling through the spren types in order to align with the correct type?

I love the magic systems that Dominion enables! I am an engineer and they just resonate with me. 

Thanks for asking!

Thanks! It has been a while since I have been active on any forum, feels good to be somewhere haha.

I should have referenced that quote from Sanderson, I think his comments fit well with the therory. Typically, the old magic does something physical, but the request wasn't physical.  So, the wierd request was to not change (preservation), but have the world change around her (ruin).

As for Kel, we know he is still with us. We just don't know exactly what he has been doing for those 300 years.

That's such a hard question to answer, I love Sanderson because I constantly fall in love with different characters. Kelsier or the sixth of dusk are my favorites though. I do wonder who could set a better trap.

I have had a therory brewing for a while, and I just finished a reread of oathbringer with a big dose of confirmation bias. So, I want to throw it out to you guys. Maybe see if anyone has seen more connections. Or, maybe this therory has already been worked over?

What do you guys think?

I have had a therory burning in my soul for the past year or so. After listening to shardcast, I decided I needed a place to air my therory!

Also, I am excited to be with some fellow Sanderson fans!