Ripheus23

Originally when I asked this question, I thought the answer would probably be a yes. It seemed to me that if mathematically sufficient concentrations of Investiture cause perpendicularities, then surely the ultimate such concentration of all (known) time would have brought one about. However, my overarching theory of Adonalsium is that it was the self-aware, self-willing Investiture present during the Big Bang, when matter and energy decoupled from each other and from their third equivalent. But unlike matter and energy, I think Adonalsium did not get pulled very far outward with the initial inflation and subsequent expansion. He remained "in place" so to speak. If so, I suspect the mystery of why the universe didn't more or less "instantly" collapse into the ultimate black hole, during the initial inflation, is reflected in the dynamics of Adonalsium. That is, a black hole naturally forms from a sufficient concentration of matter/energy (there's a hypothetical "kugelblitz" which would result from condensing way too many photons in a region), yet despite the primordial universe easily exceeding the density requirements for forming black holes, the universe expanded, and continues to do so, even apparently (temporarily or not) expanding at an accelerated rate. My theory, then, is that Adonalsium did not in itself have a perpendicularity, or if it did this was very unlike those of the Shards, not just in degree but in kind. By theory then is that the Shattering of Adonalsium was brought about by somehow causing Adonalsium to acquire a perpendicularity like those of the Shards.

He is not bound by the Oathpact itself but the Oathpact is Connected to what is holding him in place. Indeed, if he can be freed "at will" (there's a moment when Dalinar appears to accidentally almost set Odium free) or in relation to a voluntary contest of champions, whatever this holding power is, it falls under the purview of "being bound by rules you choose to follow," which is what is of Honor/Honor is of.

I'm not saying it's about being bound by rules in the sense of a rule as, "Every A is B," or whatever, or even, "Every A should be B." As you mention, an oath is a rule you've chosen to be bound by. But then why is it said that, "Ruin was promised the chance to destroy the world," or however that goes? Why is the Oathpact-component of Odium's binding related to something that is named after two types of promises? If these are merely meta-rules for the Shards, then they would probably be better referred to as "principles," except even that word has both a metaphysical and a metaethical value. Referring to them as pacts, promises, agreements, and so on sets them apart from mere abstract mathematical formulas or axioms or whatever. This WoB indicates the answer to this question, maybe:

This and and and so on, Also @Fanghur Rahl: "Do you believe that the shadow on the heart of the Earth is the black sphere?" the Harrow asked, addressing Linden Avery, his voice a blood-specked loam. "The black sphere is the white gold." "Ah, my daughter. Do not be dismayed. You will not fail, however he may assail you. There is also the black sphere in the world."

But why? Especially if oath-related Investiture has in fact all been "assigned to" the Shard of Honor? Why would "obeys promises" just happen to be an inherent property of Investiture in general? That seems highly unlikely, especially given what we know about how the Cosmere works (as little as this is, it's enough for us to recognize that magic would not just "happen" to "obey promises" in itself). Also, I came up with another piece of evidence for the power of Honor. Basically, Honor designed the Honorblades, which the Shardblades imitate. Then the Five Scholars studied Rosharan Blades and came up with Nightblood. So, Nightblood, which is an incredibly powerful thing, is modeled after something Honor originally designed. Indeed, the Scholars might've been able to Worldhop to various places but for some reason they ended up focusing on Roshar, at least as far as the supersword project went. They didn't try to copy the Metallic Arts, or AonDor (admittedly that would've probably been very difficult given the locality obstacle), or Threnodite silver, or the Aviar, or whatever. They chose to try to copy the power of Honor. Now this doesn't by itself imply, "The Scholars tried to copy the ultimate power they knew of; this power was of Honor; therefore, the ultimate power simpliciter is Honor's," since for currently-undisclosed reasons it is possible that the Scholars really could only, or only reliably, Worldhop to Roshar. For example, maybe from the Cognitive Realm of Nalthis to most any other powerful Shardworld's, transit is troubling except or primarily in the case of Roshar. (I think there might be one or more WoB's that could testify to such an argument.) Also, it might be that other powers were known by the Scholars to be greater, but it was not feasible to try to copy them. Nevertheless, Nightblood is a testament to a little bit of something, here, maybe. [So I also came up with a theory about Nightblood as a "robot spren." Originally I took this to mean that he performs the same function as a spren (specially represents a Cognitive concept on the Physical plane), and that his injunction, "Destroy evil," maps to the concept he represents. However, let's suppose that the Cognitive distance between knowledge that Shardblades are made of spren, and this fact, allowed an odd tertiary Shardspren to appear, so to speak. That is, in addition to the spren that actually make up the Shardblades, a species of spren formed based on the common legends of Shardblades, a "legend-of-Shardblades-spren" as it goes. This would have been involved, somehow, in the making of Nightblood, and I think it might account for the anomaly in him. That is, he has been made into a spren of the spren of the Shardblades in that he is literally based on the legend of Shardplates (as much as the facts).]

This is crazy, but while I was walking today, I thought all those thoughts and was gonna post them. So now I don't think Unity is Dominion, or Honor in total, but I suspect that the Dawnshards are ten special Splinters of Honor, one for each Name/Purpose/Surge, and by using them, one uses a god-Surge, so to speak. Let's say the Dawnshards are the spren of the polestones themselves. Let's further suggest that not everyone is a Child of Honor in the same way, that people like Kaladin or Nohadon are so in an unusual sense besides the regular one. If Dalinar became a Child of Honor in the sense of being literally adopted by the spirit of Honor, just like the Stormfather literally sealed his marriage, then perhaps the Dawnshards were killed because they were spren that became weapons that were used in the devastation of Ashyn (i.e. imagine a sprenweapon made from the bonded spren of the polestones themselves---not a sword, obviously, but something more destructive), and it was Odium who incited this event. So anyway, Dalinar quasi-Ascended to using the god-Surge form of the Unity-correspondent Surge, which would amount to personally using Honor's direct power (the Shard's, not Tanavast's anymore). Basically, I decided I was wrong about Unity = Dominion because it would be easier to explain the, "Unite them," command in terms of the Unity of Honor (not Honor as Unity, though) rather than the unification of national dominion.

Well, if Honor was the most powerful Shard at some point and had some lordship over some of the other Shards But I don't know the answer to that question.

Well, I don't remember the end of OB [and no longer have a copy of my own] well enough to remember whether it is definitively stated that Dalinar Ascends. If he did, then I would suppose, "I am Unity," somehow referred to Honor, or a new Shard based on Honor at least. But I feel like it wasn't clearly true that Dalinar had Ascended, or else he would have ended up with a heck of a lot more power than he seemed to get out of the affair. By contrast, Connecting to Dominion's Cognitive Shadow via some elaborate Evi-Iriali-Ire/Stormwatcher-Dor Spiritual link (a link of almost pure Intent) would not have resulted in a full Ascension, I expect. EDIT: Here's an interesting WoB: kurvyyn [PENDING REVIEW] If Dalinar actually brought Honor back together to summon the perpendicularity, and Odium said he Ascended. Dalinar did he actually hold the Shard Honor and is he now considered a Sliver? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] RAFO! They are really waiting on this one. Let's just say, he is not Honor currently. But of course, you knew that. source EDIT 2: Another one: Argent [PENDING REVIEW] Are gloryspren composed entirely of Honor's investiture? Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW] RAFO. source

At least, unless she first helped Honor and then switched sides [rid this forum of this post if this has been cited elsewhere]: Seonid If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium? Brandon Sanderson She did. source

Well, sometimes I disagree with Sanderson's explanation of his own worlds but as far as his own explanations go, it would have to be Honor who undergirds the binding of the Shards unless they aren't bound by Investiture. Honor being involved with Odium being trapped, not directly/only by the Oathpact but still in relation to it, is tantamount to Honor's power binding Odium, since an Oathpact is two different words for promissory binding in one word (a binding of bindings!). In fact, again, any binding is per Honor's power, since that's just what Honor's power is (of binding). IRL there are two main categories of binding, physical and ethical. There's also the question of "the unity of propositions" but that might be thought of as metaphysical and metaethical in one (unless moral binding recursively yields propositional unity, with subjects being morally bound to predicates, but that's the theory of axiogenesis and while possibly part of some deep Realmatics, I'm not sure we've seen much in the way of it in any Cosmere writings to date). So, Shardic binding is either caused by physics that result from their mere agreements, which doesn't sound likely at all, or it's caused by ethics, which means the type of binding would default to the Shard whose nature is based on the concept of being ethically bound, i.e. Honor. EDIT: I just found a WoB that says Kelsier would enjoy punching Honor a lot. I want to fit this into my theory but I'm not sure how to do so yet...

@Fanghur Rahl The black sphere's fate is writ in water.

Devotion isn't an unlikely synonym of love. Most of the time when people talk about being devoted to something or someone, they are talking about feeling strong love for the thing or person. However, people rarely link being honorable with being unified, unless they're way into philosophy and come up with circuitous arguments having to do with personal identity over time or what. Now this all gets into the nature of semantics/meaning/etc., whether there are irreducible concepts or if all words have to be defined relative to other words (postmodernism to a degree) or whatever. EDIT: This is way too vague and/or circular. Besides, then we'd have to explain the concept of an ideal, which would lead us into another circle. And once we got to an analysis of integrity, we'd be in for yet more and more circles. Now, maybe not all these circles would be vicious but I doubt almost any of them were going through Dalinar's mind while he was confronting Odium after holding his favorite book and seeing it get zapped to ashes. However, the oft-repeated demand, "Unite them," was likely percolating near the fore of his subconscious, alongside his recovered memories of Evi and the role of her death in the nationalistic unification of Alethkar and so on and on. Moreover, if Honor were the Shard Dalinar was interacting with, why did gloryspren and not honorspren attend the act? I'll admit, the gloryspren flood actually makes me suspect Ambition, since it seems harder to square with Dominion, unless the golden globes of the gloryspren are somehow similar to the glowing globes of the Skaze. EDIT 2: "...unless the golden globes of the gloryspren are somehow similar to the glowing globes of the Skaze" ... Well now, wait a second... they are rather similar.

I never said he was in charge of every promise whatsoever (although he is Connected to them all). I said that he was involved with all Investiture-based promissory binding. Now if the Shards can bind themselves to agreements without using Investiture, then my point is half-moot. Preservation's depiction of the agreement with Ruin suggests as much, though following his lead depends on trusting his judgment (which at that point was not by any means unquestionable). But I think much of this discussion has been derailed due to an overemphasis on the ambiguous Ati-Leras pact, rather than an equal (or greater) emphasis on the Oathpact and the sealing of Odium. The fact remains that if Honor's power suffices (or is authorized) to bind "the most terrible" Shard of them all (supposing Odium *is* the worst), even when Honor is dead, that is a testament to how much power Honor had. Although I did check on the WoB about Adonalsium growing Roshar the continent, and the WoB says something about other regions being likewise designed, still, if Adonalsium is like a spren and Roshar is the only place in the Cosmere where spren regularly manifest... Besides which, when all is said and done, there's not going to be some other world that Sanderson will have detailed quite so much as Roshar, from the lengths of the books to the special materials inside, to the projected series length (10 books in two 5-book arcs). Even the 13 Mistborn books won't add up to that much.

That's kind of a stretch. It'd be like saying that Preservation was possibly Unity because dividing an object into multiple parts to deconstruct it would be the opposite of unity. The only in-world invocation of unity that's relevant is the, "Unite them," charge given to Dalinar, which hearkens towards nationality/internationalism. If the Skaze are in the Physical Realm, then part of Dominion's power isn't in the Cognitive Realm. That's just where the bulk of it is. Since all things exist in each Realm to some degree, there has to be a remnant of Dominion in the Spiritual Realm.

(A) I explicitly do not think AonDor itself was invoked. But the Shards are not clumps of particles, they are more like force-fields that span the Cosmere, with excitations localized. As Sanderson puts it, The Dominion-field is everywhere, so anywhere that there is nationalism/related cognitive energy, the Shard of Dominion has some, albeit limited, presence. Secondly, if the sDNA of the Selish people got transmitted to Roshar via the Ire offshooting into the Iriali, then Dalinar's marriage to Evi would have given him a Connection to Selish sDNA (as I already indicated in the OP, why am I having to repeat myself?). (B) As for another Shard being introduced, I didn't say "fully," I indicated "partially" by referring to Skai's Cognitive Shadow. But anyway, given the centrality of Roshar to the Cosmere saga, I don't see why there would be a limit on the number of Shards who might be or become involved in this story. EDIT: If Dalinar was Ascending (at all), and the Ire have a motive to try to involve themselves in such processes (as per their bid on Preservation's Shard), then, hmm...

If Preservation was not too fuzzy-minded by the time he told Kelsier that the deal in question was a kind that couldn't be broken, I suppose a physical instead of a magical law might account for Shardic oathbinding. However, all of that seems very unlikely.

First, if Unity was Honor, why would Odium be so surprised? A little, maybe, but not quite so, I think. However, Dalinar used to be a nationalist and is now an internationalist. This fits with Dominion's (undead) role in AonDor being country-confined, i.e. the notion of "Dominion" as "national unity." Second, I think there's a link between the Ire and the Iriali. Like the Iriali originally emigrated to Roshar from Sel via the Ire castle or whatever. Dalinar is linked to the Iriali, Spiritually, via his marriage to Evi. So perhaps there's some residue of Selish Investiture floating around Roshar. Besides which, I think Dalinar's internationalism is what summons some of Dominion, through the Cognitive Realm, to him, at that point. That is, the very concept of uniting the nations, impinges on the locality principle for AonDor, bridging not AonDor itself but one of the involved Shards, with Dalinar. Secondly, Dalinar does not seem to have fully Ascended/taken up a Shard. I think, then, that he just drew upon Dominion's remnant, which would be similar to a Cognitive Shadow (indeed maybe it was through the Stormfather as Honor's Cognitive Shadow that Dalinar was able to Connect to the Cognitive Shadow of another Shard?). Also, given how "long ago" Odium killed Skai, it seems as if this being reappearing, at all, as such, before him, would be surprising enough to garner the reaction he has to it.

Anyone being bound by Investiture is involved thereby with Honor. As Sanderson says, There is no leftover-from-Adonalsium rando magic system that holds the Shards to their oaths. This is not LOST, where there are unintelligible Rules that govern the god-figures on the Island. This is the Cosmere, where everything fits together in a mathematical order. In fact, I realized on top of all this that if Adonalsium was equivalent to a spren, and if the Shards embody concepts, then the Shards are like spren, and taking up a Shard is equivalent to bonding a spren (Ruinspren, Ambitionspren, etc.), so Honor must've mediated the entire process of the Vessels taking up the Shards as such. Or, at least, I will propose this hypothesis (which we'll never know the answer to until who knows how many years from now): Tanavast was the first Vessel to take up a Shard. This is why he went to lord himself over Adonalsium's pet planet, even.

After the Shattering, all Investiture was assigned to the Shards. Honor is the one who filters Investiture through oaths, so any use of Investiture involving oaths is filtered through Honor in some way or other. So there is no random Investiture system, over and above the Shards, that can be used to bind them. If any oaths or pacts or whatever are used by the Shards, to magically enforce things, this will be "through" Honor. I never said Honor was involved in their decision to create a new world as such, but that the agreement by which they were able to create a new world, was certified by Honor. So they both just happened to be so fascinated by the way of things on Yolen that that's why they teamed up? These were human beings in the beginning, man. Usually when people team up for those kinds of reasons, and they don't bring along a whole horde of likeminded people, it's because they're close friends, or lovers, or family. If they had a horde with them, it'd be a "League of People Who Think Yolen Is Cool" or whatever, which is so not what happened. EDIT: Moreover, unless we assume Preservation's mind wasn't rather fuzzy at that point I don't see why we should take his characterization of the loophole/dealbreaking at face value. After all, he might've just been making an excuse to explain why he broke a solemn promise.

This is not a black sphere. The black sphere is a glyph for "RAFO."

I think it's as simple as the black sphere is Nale's Plate.

For the record, I'm not saying that each and every oath sworn anywhere in the Cosmere, powered up Honor. I'm saying that when the Shards swore empowered oaths, they had to mediate the power of these oaths via Honor. This mediation would have put Honor in a special position relative to the other Shards. You think it's just happenstance that he and Cultivation went to settle on a world forged by Adonalsium itself? Of course, if Honor never visited Scadrial in the distant past, the point is as such moot, but I've heard of a WoB that says that some (currently unspecified) Shards, besides Ruin and Preservation, did so. Besides, isn't it storming weird that Ati and Leras would go try to create a world together, if they knew they had opposed Intents and so on? Why not go to already-existent worlds, Ati to some planet he could destroy, Leras to some planet he could preserve? I think they must have been friends around the time of the Shattering. In fact, I suspect that the generic reason for Shards to violate the separation pact involved either friendship or romantic love, or maybe family relations too (just imagine if Aona was Skai's daughter!) (there's also a WoB to the effect that two of the Shards were family members). But Honor represents the marital and, therefore, the family seal, too. So I suspect that Honor certified the pact between Ati and Leras, and was affected (negatively) by Leras' violation of the pact.

IDK, it seems that people in the Cosmere sometimes have a sense of these things. No one, as far as I remember, calls Domi "the Almighty," but they usually say, "Merciful," which corresponds to the Domi-concept being linked back to Aona. Austre is known mostly as the God of Colors, which relates to the beauty of Endowment. The Terris religion is named after Preservation as such. Besides, somehow Odium has been constrained to the Rosharan system in part by the Oathpact. The Oathpact depends to some extent on Honor's power. So Odium is still bound by the power of a being he killed, which seems to indicate that Honor had an incredible amount of power (if it's that effective even when he's dead).

I don't mean that they would have sensed his power versus the other Shards, but it just seems odd that a being who died a raving lunatic, ripped apart by Odium, would have ever been perceived as the Almighty unless he at some other point presented as having extraordinary power. I feel like he would have seemed "weak" otherwise, even if the reason he seemed "weak" were unknown. And I think Honor was, to an extent, the source of those rules. But more on this at another time...

I heard somewhere that some Shards visited Scadrial long ago, meaning not just Preservation and Ruin. Now, if Honor is the Shard of oaths, and if oaths can bind Shards, wouldn't a Shard being subject to an oath---as with Preservation and Ruin agreeing to create Scadrial, or Odium being trapped in the Rosharan system---require being subjected to Honor's power? My supposition, then, is that Honor at some point was the strongest Shard. I've heard they were equal at the start, so not then. Anyway, whenever he held the crown (so to speak), this was what the ancient Rosharans were inspired by when they named him "the Almighty." Now, let's suppose Honor could be affected by oaths being broken, in which he'd Invested. So, what happened to him when Preservation surreptitiously broke the pact through which Scadrial was created? I submit that this might have weakened Honor. Not killed him outright, not like a bonded spren being betrayed by its Knight Radiant, but still...