The Harlem Worldhoppers

I just want to belatedly congratulate you @Aon Ene. Maybe we'll face off again in a future tournament

3 hours ago, Angsos said:

Kaladin's evolution will hinge on Elokhar since he died because Kal cared about everyone in that skirmish

I don't really see this ship leaving the harbour but plenty of the arguments here hold merit. Something else to consider is that Elhokar's death and Gavinor's status as an orphan could be an area where Jasnah and Kaladin find common ground. Kaladin likely feels somewhat responsible for Gavinor's wellbeing as he failed to save his father while Jasnah values her family above all else and may cling to the last living connection she has to her brother. Of course, this same argument could be used to develop a close friendship rather than a romantic relationship.

6 hours ago, BitBitio said:

Look, Brandon wrote what he wrote and we can't change that. Arguing between Shalladin and Shadolin isn't going to change what Brandon writes.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, so please excuse my tone, but most Shalladin shippers aren't trying to change Brandon's mind. They believe that the text is intentionally misdirecting readers and that he plans to subvert the marriage. The argument is whether it is all resolved and we are pointing to canonical evidence that suggests it is in fact anything but resolved.

The purpose of this thread isn't to somehow convince Brandon to change his mind. He isn't the fanservice type anyway.

6 hours ago, BitBitio said:

SKA is indeed done. Now it is SA. Stormlight Archive. And the heroes have bigger problems to deal with now.

This is the very thing being argued. Please don't tell us what topics we can't discuss. I'm here to debate if anyone wishes to express why they believe SKA is indeed done as you have said.

5 minutes ago, Morsk said:

I think Nale wants to be judged, and judged by someone who can condemn him to true death, not just sending him to respawn on Braize. So he's setting Szeth up to be able to do this. But we really have no idea.

I don't think I've ever had a Stormlight prediction be correct, so now that I've posted this it's almost guaranteed to be wrong...

I think you may be correct for what it's worth. We know that all of the Heralds are insane and that they are not completely certain of themselves. Nale used to be Just and Confident. Now he follows a perversion of justice and lacks confidence in his own decision making ability. It would not surprise me if part of him subconsciously wanted someone to condemn him. This would explain why he gave Nightblood to Szeth as Nightblood would be capable of killing a Cognitive Shadow (It is confirmed to be able to kill the Fused). It also draws parallels to Szeth's own storyline where he hoped his enemies would be strong enough to kill him.

10 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

I’m sorry your experience with Szeth is boring. You can tell by my name I’m biased. For me Szeth instantly got me into SLA . He Is the most dangerous character in the book so far. At first you think of him as a tool of the primary Atagonist. Lines blur and I felt sorry for Szeth. From him falsely being declared truthless , to him being forced to kill so many people. On a reread I discovered Szeth has more foreshadowing involved with his character Arc than any other character. It was because of his flashbacks I was able to confirm the identity of the Stone Spren as the third sibling. I was able to realize the Shin shamans have activated an oath gate. And so much more. There is only one dissapointing thing in Szeth story arc. There was outrage at him coming to serve Dalinar. I expected Jasnah to want to take his head off, and considering how much Dalinar loved his brother I expected him to have an attitude similar to the female that Wayne pays restitution to in mistborn. You may. Serve me Szeth but I don’t wish to look st your. Stay out of my sight!!  Szeth pays for all his sins. The voices hears will haunt him forever. And he is serving Dalinar as a form of restitution. I love Szeth , I know he will not survive into the back 5 books , he is too powerful. I suspect he will die facing the most powerful person on Odium side, it is for that reason he was given night blood. As scary as nightnlood is , can u imagine a creature it takes Nightblood to destroy . That’s even scarier.

Szeth is one of my favourite characters as well. I'm really interested to read his flashback book and learn more about Shin culture and the Stone Shaman. I have been satisfied with most areas of his character arc except, as you have said, the way in which him switching sides was handled. I get that everyone had their hands full but surely Brandon could have squeezed in a scene where Jasnah or Dalinar confront him. We know there will be a one year in world timeskip between OB and book 4 so I am increasingly certain that we won't see a satisfying resolution to this issue. I have a feeling that Szeth will fight his mentor Nale in book 5 in case you were wondering @SzethIsBadAsHell

I'll take you up on that

• Would you rather have leg sized fingers or finger sized legs?
• Would you rather be teleported 50 years into the future or 50 years into the past? You bring any items currently on your body with one weeks notice.
• Your favourite villain has to protect you from your favourite protagonist for the next week. Who are they and do you survive?
• Would you rather get $10,000 upfront or $50,000 exactly 15 years from now? (Inflation is accounted for)
• Would you rather have a well above average ability to predict the stock market or have the ability to see one minute into the future every day?

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

Which is why I've repeatedly said she shouldn't be in a relationship at all. When she's forced to face things yes she's aware that she's lying to herself. The vast majority of the time though, I don't believe she's aware of it. It's willful ignorance. 

She is in a perpetual state of willful ignorance. The question is what the consequences of this ignorance will be. She has rushed into a decision that might come back to bite her by getting married in her current mental state. I'm of the mind that the wedding in OB was intentionally glossed over in the narrative to represent how Shallan has similarly glossed over potential issues in her mind.

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

She did start to broach the topic, without any kind of explanation, and his reaction completely shut that down. Which is one of the reasons I've said in the past that I think that Kaladin is far more likely to exacerbate her issues. He doesn't understand it enough to "have that information" in my opinion. 

Kaladin got to see a dark side of Shallan when she told him about her murdering her own father during the chasm sequence. That dark side of Shallan has been compartmentalised into the Veil persona which is why Kaladin treats Veil as the same individual when Veil suggests a mutiny on the ship in Shadesmar. Since Adolin first met Shallan he has only seen the false mask of the Vorin conformist Shallan, so when he sees her engage the Veil persona he recognises her as a separate individual to the one he knows, whereas Kaladin sees Veil as just another aspect of Shallan's identity which is the case in reality. By recognising the personas as unique individuals Adolin is enabling Shallan's state of willful ignorance. I don't think Shallan is currently stable enough to attempt to integrate her masks but she can only ignore the problem for so long. 

9 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I feel like Shallan needs to love every part of herself— Shallan Shallan, Radiant Shallan, and Veil Shallan— before she can love another person.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Shallan needs to integrate her personas before she can be fully committed to any  relationship. A potential hitch in the road for her marriage with Adolin is that Shallan harbours romantic feelings for Kaladin and has displaced these feelings onto Veil. When she integrates her personas she will have to acknowledge that truth.

9 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I agree. Because Shallan hates herself, I do not believe she has anything to give. She can take and take from Adolin, but what is Adolin getting back?

You could make an argument that Adolin is giving in to societal pressures to get married. He's known as that guy who can't commit to a relationship by many in the Alethi elite. I'm not saying that Adolin doesn't love Shallan. I think he does. I also think that he is being influenced by external pressures to get married and Shallan is a suitable option for him. An issue with his marriage to Shallan is that he has barely even seen the tip of the iceberg when it comes to her problems. He knows the 'Shallan' mask, not the integrated original Shallan.

9 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

We will have to disagree about Kaladin. I do not think with more information he would exacerbate Shallan's issues. I think Adolin currently exacerbates Shallan's issues because he treats Veil and Radiant as real. This does not make sense to me. I notice Shallan, The Great Avoider, approves though.

I agree. Adolin enabling Shallan's self delusion is a bad thing that not enough people are acknowledging. 

I know Brandon does not really like The List but if possible I would really appreciate if someone could forward a question for me as I myself will probably never get to ask them.

My list of questions is as follows. Contains spoilers for Secret History.

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Quote

“Are you . . . are you sure?” he asked. “I just . . . Don’t glare at me, Shallan. I have to say this. The world is full of gods and Heralds now, and you’re one of them. I’m practically a nobody. I’m not used to that feeling.”

“Then it’s probably the best thing that’s ever happened to you, Adolin Kholin. Well. Except for me.” She snuggled against him. “I will admit to you, in the interest of full honesty, that Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed. She has terrible taste in men, and I’ve convinced her to fall in line.”

Also important to note the use of the past tense in 'Veil did have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin Stormblessed'.

This is another misdirect from Shallan as it is clear that Veil still does have a tendency to fawn over Kaladin.

Quote

We’re decided upon this,” Shallan said.

“A worthy union,” Radiant said.

“He’s good for you, I suppose,” Veil said. “Plus he knows his wine. We could do far worse.”

“But not much better,” Radiant said, giving Veil a pointed look. “This is good, Shallan.”

“A celebration,” Veil said. “A celebration of you.”

 

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Barring her choosing no one and dealing with her issues before getting involved in anything at all with anyone, this is the best outcome. 

 I think it is the best outcome that was readily available. It offers her a place of stability to work through some of her issues. I still see it as a temporary solution to her problems however as she has been anything but honest with herself and entirely dismissive of the feelings of her personas which would impede her happy relationship with Adolin.

7 hours ago, Dichotomy said:

Those are intriguing arguments, but what draws me to being mistborn is the mechanics of iron and steel. I’d love to be able to experiment with those two metals

I became far more interested in allomantic iron and steel after the scene where Wax visualised the bullet as three separate pieces and pushed on the firing pin. That implies that you could do some very interesting things by pushing on the ends of an object rather than the objects centre of mass to generate torque.

7 hours ago, Dichotomy said:

Yes, I am the academic type—and I can’t wait until we get a novel based around her viewpoint. 

What order of knights radiant would you consider yourself to be in?

I'm really looking forward to the Jasnah flashback book as well. Unfortunately it won't be until book 8 or 10 apparently  

As for what order of the Knights Radiant I'd be in... I think I would be a Windrunner as I aspire to become a doctor and help people that way.

8 hours ago, Dichotomy said:

I’d love for a movie adaptation to happen, but I’d also be hesitant about it due to all the intricacies involved. It would be hard to get all the information across in even multiple movies, so logistically I think if the storm light archives were adapted they’d do better as a tv series. However, I think any mistborn books would do well as movies due to how visual they are, and the fact that they aren’t quite as involved as stormlight.

Well said. I think it would be best if the first Cosmere adaptation was the Mistborn trilogy as a trilogy of movies. After the Cosmere starts to gain a bit of steam there could be a more realistic chance of seeing Stormlight Archive adapted into a tv series.  There's just no way you can capture all of the intricacies of Stormlight Archive in a feature length film.

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Just as Rosharans call all living investiture spren, I believe they'd think of all magic as surges... 

I don't really think that categorization helps us much. 

Or how any vaguely bird like creature is a chicken...

47 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The thing is... She doesn't plan on telling him, she says Veil can tell him sometime. She's already avoiding crucial parts again.

Whenever things become too uncomfortable she slips back into the same avoidance habits. I personally think Shallan is yet to reach the nadir of her storyline. We know that Lightweaver ideals are based on self-awareness and truths. Shallan is not being honest with herself by identifying Veil as a separate entity. She has not been honest with Adolin about her tragic past or her involvement with the Ghostbloods. She has not been honest in regards to her feelings for Kaladin 'Veil having bad taste in men'. Throughout Oathbringer there is evidence that Shallan's bond with Pattern has been weakening. If Shallan continues down her current path she will kill Pattern... a second time. 

55 minutes ago, SLNC said:

They are desperate to be together, but both for other reasons. Shallan to not lose herself, Adolin to not be the "guy that can't keep a girl". To not disappoint his family. In my eyes, that is a quite fragile foundation for a relationship for life.

This is something that frustrates me. If they had not been in an arranged marriage situation I do not think we would have seen anything spark between them. Comparing the intimacy of the chasm scenes to the cheesiness of the 'Without you I fade' scene and the presence or absence of that spark is clear.

Sidenote: To be perfectly honest my judgement around how the romance was handled is clouded by my dislike for the consistent use of arranged marriages in Brandon's works. It feels like a lazy way to write a romance as the characters are forced to find some common ground rather than sparking something naturally.

On 20 July 2018 at 9:23 AM, Apollyon said:

Theory: Adolin is actually another one of Shallan’s personalities.

I'll do you one better: Hoid is another one of Shallan's personalities

Evidence: Hoid says he started off as an idea, words on a page. You know who is creative and has a hobby surrounding pages? That's right, Shallan.

29 minutes ago, Dichotomy said:

5. I’m not sure what you’re asking in his question. If the cosmere were to be adapted to what?

The Cosmere being adapted to the big screen.

29 minutes ago, Dichotomy said:

3. I’m most interested in the ghostbloods. We know almost nothing of their motives and I’m curious to find out more

I too am extremely interested in the ghostbloods. I hope we find out more about them in the future.

30 minutes ago, Dichotomy said:

Definitely scadrial. The magic system on that world is my favorite 

The magic system is great but the climate in Era 1 isn't exactly welcoming. Era 2 seems more fun.

31 minutes ago, Dichotomy said:

1. I’d probably choose to be a full mistborn over full feruchemist, even with that restriction

I'd be a feruchemist myself. In the modern world most lifestyles involve a lot of sitting around all day. You could store feruchemical attributes so easily. You could then use these attrubutes to compete in sports at an elite level (running the 100m in less than 2 seconds). You could absorb all the information on the internet onto a Coppermind and know everything there is to know.

33 minutes ago, Dichotomy said:

4. Ooh this is a hard one. I think I’d consider myself to be an elsecaller—I feel that I’m more similar to jasnah than anyone in the other orders

I really like Jasnah as well. Are you yourself an academic type or are you similar to Jasnah in other ways?

When you misuse a quote from one of the books and wonder if Ruin has been tampering with your precious hardback editions.

My impressions with Jasnah were not necessarily that she was asexual, rather she has a shopping list of priorities consisting of what she needs to do to save Roshar..... then way, way down on the bottom of that list is pursuing a relationship. 

Just a heads up @Ashspren I will be unavailable on the 24th and 25th of July (Australian time) so whatever way the brackets are arranged I hope I can do it at a better time than that.

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not nearly that creative, and I'd like to believe that I don't lie to myself that much... But who knows. 

I definitely treat the Cosmere as a scholarly study though. I picked Elsecaller for a reason. It's memorization through a frankly unhealthy amount of study. 

I don't know about you not being creative. It takes creativity to come up with good theories. Ironically, your self awareness regarding why you would fit as an Elsecaller is also an attribute of the Lightweavers. The orders are next to each other on the surgebinding chart I believe. Maybe you could be bonded to two spren as Brandon has stated it is entirely possible  

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Was near the end of WoR. 

People asked Brandon about it and we got our answer of it being from worldhoppers, and being the common cold. 

And seeing as we saw a group of worldhoppers in the Purelake at the beginning of tWoK... There you go. 

There's the fabled memory of an Arcanist. Your ranking says Elsecaller but maybe you should be a Lightweaver with those mnemonic abilities Cal  

Welcome to the Shard @Dichotomy!  The forums are great, just be sure not to accept any cookies and to keep a hold of your breath.

Here are some quick questions I have for you:

• Would you rather be a full feruchemist or a full Mistborn (Godmetals are unavailable)?
• Which world that Brandon has created would you want to live in and why?
• Which Rosharan secret society are you most interested in?
• If you were a Knight Radiant, which order would you belong in and why?
• If the Cosmere were to be adapted how do you think it should be done?

It is mentioned (in OB I think) that there has been an outbreak of disease at the Purelake. 

They are a worldhopper organisation that preach a policy of non-interference to other worldhoppers. They attempt to prevent worldhoppers from meddling in the affairs of different Shardworlds, seemingly unsuccessfully as shown by the prevalence of worldhopper interference on Roshar.

In case you didn't know there were some 17th Shard members searching for Hoid at the Purelake in an interlude in Way of Kings. Ironically, those same 17th Shard members ended up infecting some of the Purelake residents with the common cold so they have made as much of a negative impact as someone like Hoid who they are trying to stop.

Some truly excellent discussion going on here.

2 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

I don't think Kaladin would be better for her honestly, he's too broken himself to be the emotional support she needs.

I agree. I don't think Kaladin is ready for a relationship with anyone until he fully comes to terms with his past, which is in all likelihood an important stepping stone in him reaching the fourth ideal. I think we are going to see Tarah and Kaladin reconnect in the current storyline which will act as a catalyst for his healing process. In his flashback scene with Tarah in OB Kaladin is holding the same kind of stone as he is holding when he claims that he never really loved Shallan. That stone, as well as the scars on his head, represent the weight of the burdens and the emotional baggage that he is carrying.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Even if, that relationship amplifies her avoidance problems with facing, who she is? The whole fiasco started, because she couldn't cope with the reality, that she killed her mother. She still hasn't faced that fact and now is in a relationship with a guy, that actively validates her avoidance scheme, since he apparently goes out drinking with "Veil".

There is supportive and there is destructive supportive. Adolin's behavior is the latter, since it is like giving whisky to an alcoholic.

True, she committed to the relationship for now and yet she wasn't in the right state of mind to do so.

She absolutely wasn't in the right state of mind to make that kind of choice. However, any choice at all is better than static indecision which demonstrates some level of maturity as @Calderis has said. A big issue for me with the rushed marriage is that Adolin barely knows about Shallan's dark past. He doesn't know about her parent killing hobby or her involvement with the Ghostbloods, an organisation that tried to kill his cousin. With Shallan being in such close proximity to her family, she will likely be forced into a position where she accepts the truths or she kills Pattern. I was rereading OB recently and specifically paying attention to Pattern and I believe that Shallan's bond with Pattern has weakened noticeably from WoR to OB following her inability to accept the truth of her mother's death. Continued willful ignorance of the truths she has spoken will lead to the death of Pattern in my opinion.

Adolin enabling Shallan's hiding from the truth by recognising the masks as different individuals is problematic for this very reason. At some point Shallan will have to integrate her personas and the end result may be a realisation that she has rushed into a marriage built on the premise of offering emotional stability and that she has convinced herself that she loves Adolin in order to attain this level of stability. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, the feelings of the masks that Shallan has created are legitimate so Shallan will have to confront her feelings about Kaladin at some point in the future while she dismissed those feelings as Veil having bad taste in men in OB.

7 hours ago, Vissy said:

Whether or not Shallan made a choice to stick with Adolin, that doesn't really matter when she's compartmentalized the feelings she needs to deal with onto other personas that she lies to herself about and considers separate from herself.

Precisely.

5 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

Consider if Shallan did integrate and she would rather be with Kaladin. Veil and Radiant prefer him. Adolin who "knows her" thinks she prefers him. Adolin who has been watching her, believes she has already made her choice. For these reasons, I think it was necessary for Shallan to acknowledge her own feelings in order to make a healthy choice. It's fine if she chooses Adolin, but she has to mean it.

8 hours ago, Ashspren said:

I think there is a very real possibility that Shallan would/will make a different choice upon integrating.

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

A successful relationship is made by choices. There will always be other options. Choosing to stay where you are is an active choice. When you find yourself tempted by something else, you either chase after it and risk your relationship, or you don't. 

 

This is true. I think Shallan will reach a point where she can choose to willingly ignore the truths she has spoken, killing Pattern but allowing her to be in a happy, temptation free relationship with Adolin or accepting the truths she has spoken and integrating her personas, potentially leading to some issues in her relationship as she is forced to admit that she has feelings for Kaladin.