marianmi

@CrazyRioter spren are not in both physical and cognitive at the same time.

Syl was in cognitive, then crossed in physical => there was nothing left in cognitive. She got back to cognitive with Kaladin (and the rest), but this means she was stuck in there (like Kaladin and the rest), and there was no more "physical" part of her - she "got out" with Dalinar's help => there was nothing of her left in cognitive. When she was in Shadesmar, she didn't magically "remember everything" before she crossed over - which means that what she lost when she crossed over, cannot be gained by simply going back to shadesmar - which means there's a spiritual change when doing the first transition.

Also note that Maya had her "real" body back in Shadesmar (like Syl BEFORE she crossed to go to Kaladin). When all were brought back by Dalinar, Maya was not included - because her "real" aspect is now cognitive again, not physical. The shardblade is something that she is stuck with because of her oaths (e.g. the KR broke their, but spren did not/ cannot break theirs). So she crosses back and forth each time (taking 10hb time) (this also means that when a shardblade needs to be resurrected, it needs to be pulled in the physical realm as a shardblade first).

So the point is that she doesn't "need" a physical aspect, because currently she is a cognitive being atm. Just like e.g. Captain Ico.

In conclusion, I maintain that it's the Spiritual that is affected, and that is the one that needs to be "fixed"  (where fixed means being re-connected to the deadeye pulled in the physical as a shardblade, and that connection being then maintained via a nahel bond [this also means i think the Nahel bond is a connection between the physical and the spiritual]). 

On 04/12/2017 at 11:11 AM, Ytsken said:

I attended a signing yesterday and Brandon confirmed the next book’s flashback character would be Eshonai. In fact, he specifically referred to having earlier stated about writing a book whose flashback character was already dead...

How it is going to work... I believe the end of Venli’s story provides a major clue. She is going to tell the former Parshmen about the Listeners. But her own life story is far from inspirational. But who was a major role model for the Listeners? Someone who enjoyed a life of exploration but who nevertheless accepted the burden of leadership and respected the History of the elders. Eshonai’s life story imho would be a fitting way to introduce Parshman to the Listeners and inspirere them ( and Venli herself) to break away from Odium before it is too late (like it was for her).

So... how would this tie-in with advancing the story?

Are we gonna have Venli talking about what Eshonai did instead of flashbacks? While she's advancing the current timeline?

voidspren = invested by Odium ("pieces" of Odium)

so having many voidspren would weaken Odium and bind him there.

@CrazyRioter

I disagree.

Spren after passing over, can stay in the physical - e.g. Syl becomes similar to a windspren. They don't "disappear", they just "lose their mind" - that doesn't seem like a "physical" thing to me.

I don't see why they need "energy" to manifest "physically" - manifest from where? What is that "energy"? Investiture? A deadeye has the same amount of investiture as a living spren. My understanding is that upon leaving Shadesmar, spren "disappear" completely from cognitive, they don't have a representation/manifestation in Shadesmar (as humans do).

Also dead spren with scratched eyes implies to me a severing of the spiritual connection, just like people killed with a shardblade have burned eyes.

I thought Kaladin could not swear his 4th oath because of the conflict <<parshmen friends vs guard wall friends>> - he could not pick a side, so he could not swear the ideal.

So his 4th ideal would be something like "I will protect even if it means killing my friends"... - and I suspect he will swear this ideal just before fighting Moash.

EDIT:

more on this, a windrunner in the tower gem cache said:

Quote

"My spren claims that recording this will be good for me, so here I go. Everyone says I will swear the Fourth Ideal soon, and in so doing, earn my armor. I simply don't think that I can. Am I not supposed to want to help people?"

So the 4th ideal is something about <not helping> people (or <some> people).

wow such a long thread with some good points...

let me add a few of my own

1. 

Quote

If all it took was urgency, then every shardbearer in battle would have summoned them under the limit numerous times.

No, they instinctively expect the blade after 10 hb, so they won't have summoned them under 10. Just like Shallan summoned Pattern after 10 hb even as a KR.

2.

As I see, spren are cognitive beings, but they would need a spiritual aspect as well. They don't have a physical aspect tho` - some spren have a reflection on physical when strong emotion is present. To form a Nahel bond, an intelligent spren needs to move its body from cognitive to physical, process in which they "lose their minds" - and they get some of that back after the nahel bond is formed. I see this as Nahel bond bridging physical to spiritual - when travelling to physical, the spren lose their connection to spiritual, and they piggy-back on the surgebinder for a connection to their own spiritual aspect. The stronger the bond, the higher the "bandwidth" the spren has to the spiritual, the more "whole" they become, the more powerful the KR becomes. Through the Nahel bond, stormlight goes (back) to the spiritual and surges are expressed in the physical (as an effect of what happens in the spiritual?).

When being struck by a shardblade, people die because their spiritual connection is severed. Dead spren have their eyes scratched out - so I think it's then pretty clear that Deadeyes have lost their spiritual connection. They are not dead as humans die because they don't have a physical "body" - their body somehow got back to cognitive. They can't provide surges anymore, since those need a spiritual connection. They also don't consume stormlight, since that is supposed to go to the spiritual. But they do travel from cognitive to physical and back. KR blades manifest instantly because the spren already are in the physical realm. Dead blades need to cross realms. They can exist in the physical as shardblades, or in the cognitive as Deadeyes, but in both states they are missing the spiritual connection. They have no "soul". They can create a connection to the soul of the blade owner through the gemstone tho`.

Thus, in order to get a dead spren/blade back, it would need to have its spiritual connection re-established. This could be done the KR they originally bonded, but I think it's impossible to be done with a new owner. 

a. Doing it without external influence is as possible as getting the original KR resurrected. So we won't get the "spren" in cognitive back.

b. Doing it with external influence, by Adolin only, also seems impossible to me. To echo what others have said, I also believe Dalinar is required for access the spiritual realm, to find Adolin's and Maya's "souls" (like we've seen he found Evi's) and create the connection/bond. Also probably this is possible only if both "souls" "want" this (he can't force the bond), and Dalinar would need to touch both. (EDIT: or maybe just another KR is required, not a Bondsmith, as we've seen that a KR touching someone with a dead blade would "connect" them? In any case, from all KR, Dalinar is the one best manipulating the spiritual...)

c. In theory, a God could resurrect a dead spren easily, destroying the connection to the owner (via the gemstone), and then searching the spiritual for its soul and creating "manually" the connection to the Deadeye.

There are 2 parts of a radiant's power:

* the physical representation of surges, which can be used the same by all orders that have it (e.g. skybreakers and windrunners use lashings the same; adhesion is used in the same way by bondsmiths and windrunners)

* some (non-physical?) effect of surges or combination of surges that results in some extra-power we see the radiants have (e.g. Kaladin creating the shield of windspren)

Bearing this in mind, Adolin has the surges of the Truthwathers and hence can do the same basic things. Corrupted higher level spren I think is quite different than corrupted low-level spren, since you have sentience and some kind of Intent in the mix. So even if the corruption seems to have changed some non-physical effects, the Intent of Glys seems to be the same as a Truthwatcher spren.

So I would say that Renarin is different than Truthwatchers in the sense that he can't do all the things a real Truthwather can do (which we don't know; maybe seeing the present/past, to be related to his seeing the future?), but he can do some other stuff instead (seeing the future).

Probably because seeing the future (via Odium) is changing the future, one of Odium's greatest advantages (being able to see further into the future than any other Shard) is negated - because his power can be used against him...

I think Renarin for now can only see the more likely future paths (like Jashnah killing him, Dalinar succumbing to Odium) but he could get better in the future at looking at more diverse paths events can follow.

Another interesting possibility is that Renarin sees what Odium sees/thinks the future holds, so he can effectively be a spy for the KR against Odium.

We know there were sprens before the shards arrived on Roshar, presumably sprens of Adonalsium... so maybe there was something more hiding on Roshar

Just to add one more:

we = odium + autonomy shards

you = unity shard

where unity shard would be the best opposition to autonomy , odium helped bavadin kill it

7 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

It literally says a pattern. It's a cryptic 

Sja-Anat is "Taker of Secrets"

Cryptics are attracted to secrets... 

it's possible that the Sibling is not of Honor or Cultivation, but one native Rosharan spren

so you have 4 factions: honor, cultivation, odium, and the spren that were before the shards came. since Sys says that some of them have 4 genders, maybe there's some similar weird reason why Stormfather refers to the the Sibling as "they" ...

Is it just me thinking that spren is not actually Elhokar's spren, but Sja-Anat?

EDIT: or maybe the 3rd Bondsmith spren?

parshendi were "the last legion", a military group that probably deserted the voidbringers the last desolation by renouncing the power forms and odium, and hide. they used only a few forms that were odium-free. probably because they were hiding for a long time, they lost contact with the world and didn't know about parshmen. it's interesting how parshmen were kept out of the storms for so long, how none had a transformation-by-mistake.

in any case, now we have another group that did the same the last legion of the last legion...

I also haven't read SH, but this discussion is fascinating - can't wait to read the Realmatics in it.

@Spoolofwhool I think the OP is saying that cognitive shadows are pulled in Braize's Shadesmar instead of Roshar's Shadesmar. So a person dying is not "shown around"/"given a choice" by Honor and/or Cultivation (well, just Cultivation now), but by Odium. Maybe this happens in all of Roshar EXCEPT Shinovar - maybe dying on Shinovar means you do end-up in Roshar and Cultivation says "Hi". Maybe cognitive shadows appear where the shard is - and after Honor's death they appear on Braize's Shadesmar, because maybe Cultivation is now only in charge of Shinovar - again, dying in Shinovar would be different from dying elsewhere on Roshar.

On a slightly different note - what would happen if you are cut down by a Shardblade or Nightblood? With shardblade, you die on spiritual realm, but with Nightblood, you would be cut from the cognitive too - does it mean you don't get a cognitive shadow and go straight to the Beyond?

Like @AngelEy3 said:

Maybe he asked to "take away the pain", and both the pain (boon) AND the memory (curse) is gone.

I agree with the theory that it was Cultivation/Nightwatcher. 

"The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well." - he knew it because he's been to the Nightwatcher before. He was sure it was similar to the Almighty visions, because it was a vision - but not from Almighty, but from the other God on Roshar.

23 hours ago, marianmi said:

Maybe Syl seeing Pattern (without them being aware of eachother)?

1 hour ago, Proffejor said:

The Ghostbloods could have given Lin Davar the information of how to turn his daughter's spren into a soulcaster, if they had such knowledge.

No they would not  This kind of information would not be given away so easily  

Nale is not a Skybreaker, and he's not bound in any way by those oaths since he's not a KR in the first place.

But where did you get the Skybreaker's second ideal?

EDIT: got to the WoB about the ideal

Maybe Syl seeing Pattern (without them being aware of eachother)?

Pattern had nothing to do with that soulcaster. The soulcaster was not "forged" in the Davar masion, but it was given to them by the Ghostbloods. How would have Ghostbloods catch Pattern?

Darkeyes rule Lighteyes!

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

According to Brandon, Nightblood is more powerful than sprenblades by magnitudes so... probably Syl wouldn't end up very well. Of course, the WoB was probably referring to dead sprenblades, which are probably weaker than living sprenblades, but I think the difference in power there isn't magnitudes, so Nightblood would still be magnitudes more powerful than Syl. To actually answer your question, no, we don't know what happens.

I would say that a Honorblade should be magnitudes more powerful than Syl too. So I don't think Nightblood can cut through Syl as Syl through a human and destroy her - *in her shardblade form* (probably in her human form, she can be cut like a human can be cut by a sword).

Probably in fighting, it's blade vs blade, metal vs metal. What it's not known is how *other powers* come into play - e.g. Nighblood's "stealing" if investiture - can it "weaken" Syl, or it would just suck the stormlight out of Kaladin; will it provide Szeth with some powers, or just deny Kaladin's?

2 hours ago, BeskarKomrk said:

This is all the description we get the first time Kaladin changes gravity. @marianmi, I just looked through Kaladin's fight with Szeth at the end of WoR and didn't see any mentions of the Cognitive Realm or the strange sun. 

that must be the one then  thanks for looking

4 hours ago, Ardjet said:

Indeed. If I recall, it's when Kaladin first consciously uses Gravitation to do a Basic Lashing in the chasms. He mentions something about being able to see a strange sky, almost glimpsing something, and then he changes gravity's pull.

Also in WoR around the time fighting Szeth, he sees "the familiar strange sun" or something along those lines.