Spinner16

I like this line of thinking, a sort of compromise where Dalinar technically wins but ends up holding the incredibly volatile shard of Odium. However, in my mind I see the duel being an objective loss for Dalinar and the radiants. The Blackthorn persisting as a Fused to rain terror upon the Cosmere is too tempting of an idea to pass up. Either way, Dalinar is not leaving this duel as a mortal.

I could see that, some sort of Kholinar situation where spend Part One believing we know where the climax of the book falls, the BOOM, Brandon pull the rug away from us.

11 minutes ago, Karnage said:

Y'all are calling the Adolin theories too soon. I mean that sounds like an epic thing for him to do but I beleive that Brandon has a huge twist in there. I don't know what the twist is but it will probably be there. He knows just the way to lead our imaginations with a string only for us to find out that it is heading the opposite direction.

I'm glad someone else has faith in Brandon to pull this off. Historically, our ability as a fanbase to predict the endings of these books is not great, especially when we're steered towards a misdirection. I believe everything with Adolin and Maya is smoke and mirrors, and am still clinging to the theory that Adolin (sign of nine) Kholin will become Odium's champion.

1 hour ago, I Used To Be A Fish said:

I'd say the main theme of SA is responsibility. Kaladin, and Dalinar's entire arcs revolve around it, and Shallan's is kinda related. One of the reasons Moash is such a good villain is he refuses to take responsibility for his actions. On the other hand Kaladin takes WAY too much responsibility. Dalinar's big moment in Oathbringer is him accepting responsibility for his past misdeeds. And IN WORLD it is confirmed to be a main theme.*

 

It a question of theme versus motif. A motif is a recurring idea in a story. A theme is a specific statement that reappears due to the intent (or Intent ) of the author. At least, those are the definitions I'm working with. I do not disagree that responsibility is a huge part of SA. However, the thing about a theme is it is generally a statement to take away. "Responsibility" is not specific enough, I'd say its considered more of a motif. My argument here was that SA books are special because their theme is not an answer, but rather a question. I'll admit that the question of "When do I take responsibility?" could be a theme. I was simply able to find more evidence in Way of Kings supporting the idea that the central question is "What is the value of a human life"

-Also its a book so whatever your opinion is its a valid one.

Syl dying would be absolutely heartbreaking. I don't want to admit it but it would go so well with Kaladin's character arc. 

The Stormlight Archive is my favorite book series, hands down. Its taken me a long time to express in words what it is about the series that speaks so strongly to me. A major hurdle in describing the series is naming themes among the books. Great books have clear themes, central ideas that the story exists in order to explore. I could name hundreds of books combed over by English classes, but within Brandon's own work there are strong themes. The first Mistborn book, for example, focuses on the idea of faith. The idea that faith gives people the strength to keep going. Sazed's endless conversations with Kelsier are an easy example of this. But take Kelsier himself, he chooses to martyr himself, trusting the rebellion will carry on. Vin learns to trust in the thieving crew, the first group she's ever been able to rely on. Elend has faith in Vin, falling in love with her even as he doubts her motives. And Elend has faith in his ideas of equality. He uses his "Enlightenment" ideals in order to save the city from a mob of rioters. There are dozens of other examples throughout the book. And while this idea of faith is not the only theme present in Mistborn, it is one of the core ones. Almost every single scene and character builds on this idea. Is there a similar central statement in the books of the Stormlight Archive? The short answer is no.

The books of the Stormlight Archive are huge. There are dozens of plots and characters, and I am not able to come up with one statement of theme for any of the books. Anything I can come up with either falls short, unable to encompass the breadth of the book, or it is contradicted by some part in the story. Then I realized something. The Stormlight books are, in and of themselves, opposed to the idea one central truth. Coming up with a single theme to encompass one of the books would be contradictory to the message of the series. I believe a central part of the Stormlight Archive is that right and wrong do not exist in some sort of divine dichotomy. Morality is different depending on who's perspective you're seeing from. Now is this a theme for the series? I would say no, it's too broad. However, this idea of individual experiences working in shades of grey is supported in each book.  Stormlight does not have these sweeping general statements, but it still contains themes. In Stormlight, the theme of each book is a question. Every moment in each book answers one central quandary presented. And here's the magical thing about that- there are different answers. Much as Radiant orders seek individualized paths to Honor, the books give readers individualized answers to the questions posed by the novel.

Let me preface the following paragraphs by saying that this is simply my own interpretation of the books. In addition, I am aware of confirmation bias, and may be stretching some things to fit the theories I propose. I am writing this to put into words what makes Stormlight so powerful to me, and I hope it might allow other people to better voice their opinions about these books.

The Way of Kings. The book varies incredibly in terms of characters, settings, and ideas. But the entire novel is working towards one goal. The Way of Kings is written to answer the following question. What is the value of a human life?

Here are the different levels that idea works on. 

Abstract-On this first level, the book deals with the philosophical idea of a human life's worth. Slavery is a powerful motif throughout the story. Front and center are the bridgemen, who have been bought as arrow-fodder. Sadeas throws his slave's lives away in order to protect the "more valuable" lives of his troops. In contrast, Dalinar and Adolin attack by hopping the chasms themselves. Although this spares the lives of bridgemen, Dalinar notes that if he were to fall in battle, many lives would be lost. Yet still Dalinar continues his strategy of charging across. He believes throwing away the lives of men is a dishonorable thing to do. When Dalinar trades his Shardblade to save Kaladin's men from slavery, he asks Kaladin what value a human life carries. Kaladin replies, "a life is priceless" (Chapter 69). This notion has been drummed into Kaladin's mine by his father. Lirin pushed Kaladin to become a surgeon, the best way to preserve precious lives in the harsh world that is Roshar. Lirin taught Kaladin that there are two types of men, those who save life and those who take it. Kaladin struggles for the entire book with the suspicion that he might be the second kind. Pair this with the discussion in Chapter 36, The Lesson. Jasnah uses her Soulcaster to utterly destroy three thieves who attack her and Shallan. Was this the right thing to do? Lirin would say no. Jasnah used her power to take three lives, people that might have be reformed or simply imprisoned. Furthermore, Jasnah exposed herself to danger, deliberately allowing the thieves to attack her. On the other hand, Jasnah sees herself as justice. She stopped the thieves from harming anyone else. She acted for the common good. Allowing the thieves to live might be allowing them to slip through the fingers of ineffective Kharbranthian courts, and harm the lives of innocent people. This ideology is also found in the actions of Taranvangian. Taranvangian is willing to murder patients in his hospital, reasoning that their lives are worth the information they give in their Death Rattles. Jasnah and Taranvangian say lives can and should be ended in order to protect innocents, but Lirin states every life is priceless and to kill is a crime, no matter the intention. Who is right? The book supports both arguments, providing different answers to the question on hand. 

Individual-On this level, the book examines how far people will go to preserve a life close to them. To Kaladin, his brother's life was worth enlisting in the army. Kaladin followed his brother Tien into military service in order to protect him. This is a direct parallel to Shallan, who aims to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster in order to save the remaining family she has. Both characters are forced into horrible things to protect the ones they love. Then there is the Vengeance Pact.  An entire kingdom is going to war to avenge the death of a single man. On the other side, there are characters willing to sacrifice a life to prevent horrible things. The Listeners assassinate King Gavilar to prevent him from bringing back the Voidbringers, knowing very well a bloody war will follow. The Heralds condemn Taln to eternal torture so that they might walk free. Dalinar falls on this side as well. He decides that Elhokar is too weak to sit on the throne, and shoulders him aside.  He does not take Elhokar's life, but instead the dignity associated with it. In addition, Dalinar begins to question the Vengeance Pact. Was the life of his brother really worth all of this fighting and bloodshed? Nale strikes down burgeoning Radiants, believing he is stopping a Desolation. Amaram murders Kaladin's squad, believing the Shards will do the most good in his hands. How far will you go to save a life? How dire do the consequences need to be before you take one? These questions tie back into the concept of the value of life, and once again, many different answers are proposed. The Vengeance Pact is wrong, and yet what Nale is doing is also wrong. How much should we value our loved ones? 

Personal-How much do we value our own lives? This is a tough one. There is a strong motif of suicide throughout the books. The vision of Kaladin standing at the edge of a chasm is one that has haunted his character arc ever since. He was willing to proclaim his life meaningless, not worth the pain it brings. Later, Kaladin becomes a symbol to his fellow bridgemen. His life becomes more once he survives the highstorm. By standing for something greater, his life gains value. Shallan, when poisoned by Kabsal, reveals the Soulcaster in order to save her own life. Elhokar makes up assassination attempts in order to convince Dalinar that his life matters and he is in danger. Dalinar, struggling with hallucinations, questions whether or not he is worthy to still lead. The doubt Dalinar feels in himself seeps through much of his viewpoints in this book, he is willing to step aside, devaluing his life in for the betterment of others. Then there is Szeth. The Assassin in White does not commit mass murder because of some sort of magical bond, but simply does so because of his ideals. Szeth values his view on life enough to slaughter hundreds in the name of it.

What is the value of a human life? Its a hard question. To provide only one answer would be a disservice to the depth the question demands. The Way of Kings gives many many answers. And the thing that makes this book so powerful for me is that the answers make sense. I do not agree with all of them, but when I'm given context into the characters, I can sympathize with the choices they make. And thats what reading Stormlight does. I may not always find answers, but I do find compassion.

I'll be back later with deep dives into Words of Radiance and Oathbringer. Until then, let me know what you think.

20 hours ago, Hentient said:

I think this is relevant:

I will retract my statement that all Radiants are broken. However I still think its really interesting that becoming a Knight is about accepting pain, and its often a much more difficult path.

As we learn more and more about the war between Radiants and Voidbringers, we begin to see a sort of parallel arms race type thing. Surgebinding vs Voidbinding, Fused vs Heralds, Shardblades vs Thunderclasts, the list of mirrored structures goes on. 

Now in Oathbringer, we learn about Odium's main campaign pitch. He can take away your pain. This offer made me think. In almost a religious sort of sense, followers of Odium are rewarded for their service with removal of their pain. What do followers of Honor receive? 

Let's get into Radiant oaths. There are five of them, no matter the order, and they're often viewed as a sort of ladder, a 5 step program to becoming whole. And why is this tempting? Radiants are, as a rule, broken people. They seek fulfillment in pursuit of a higher cause. However, this is not the same offer as Odium. In fact, I see it as the opposite. As Radiants further their oaths, they expose themselves to more pain. Swearing oaths has provided characters with answers, with solutions to problems. However, swearing oaths has never spared a Radiant from pain. Being a follower of Odium means you are set free from pain. Being a Knight Radiant means you push yourself deeper into it.

Now what do I mean by pain? I mean the guilt Dalinar faces as he relives The Rift. I mean the anguish in Kaladin's heart after seeing his men die. I mean the world-shattering trauma Shallan bears after murdering her parents. Becoming Radiant did not alleviate these pains, rather, it exacerbated them. Dalinar swore an oath to take responsibility for his war crimes, he must now face his actions with only himself to blame. Shallan has to confront herself about what she has done, living with her truth instead of suppressing it. And Kaladin. Kaladin is the strongest example of oaths bringing pain. It would have been easier to remain selfish, but Kaladin swore to protect others. It would have been simpler to allow for Elhokar to die, but Kaladin swore to protect even those he hates. And now, Kaladin is faced with the realization that he cannot protect everyone. If Kaladin swears his Fourth Ideal, he will not find peace. He will only find more sorrow. Sorrow in admitting to himself that even with all his abilities, he is not enough. The Fourth Ideal does not bring the peace of accepting you can't be infallible, it brings the guilt of knowing you're skills are insufficient to save the people you love. 

So why become a Radiant? The farther you go, the more pain you receive. You have to confront your darkest self, and once you're there, you don't move on, you don't get to forget. You must move forward, accepting more pain and more responsibility all while staring your darkest demons straight in the face. Being a Radiant makes the pain worse, but here's the thing-

"Ten spears go to battle, all but one shatter. Did the war forge the spear that remains? No. The war identified the spear that would not break"

Accept your pain, move forward, and you'll get stronger. With Odium, you can find peace, that's what makes his offer so potent. But swear an oath, become a Knight, and you'll become something new.

Through pain, you will become Radiant.

-Spinner

3 hours ago, HipsterStick said:

I agree with this. However, here’s an idea-

What if Moash survives Stormlight- and goes on to become a Cosmere aware character? And tries to earn his redemption there?

Consider: it’s book 5 (or book 10, I don’t know where it would fit better) of the series. There’s this big climactic battle between Kaladin and Moash. By the end of it, something happens to Dai-gonarthis (who I am convinced has something to do with Odium’s apathy-inducing aura) or maybe Odium himself, and all of Moash’s pain returns to him. He breaks down and begs Kaladin to kill him- but Kaladin leaves him and just walks away. Moash is left to deal with the accumulation of all of his past misdeeds and confront his shame.

Then comes the epilogue. It’s Wit as usual, making his normal fancy speech- only this time, it’s not evident who he is talking to for the whole chapter. Until, that is, when he gets to the end, and finishes with some inspiring statement about redemption. And then, he extends to Moash (who has just been revealed as the person he’s been talking to) the opportunity of redemption.

From there, Moash works tirelessly to help the Cosmere fight Odium, and to make it a better place. So instead of getting a rushed, slightly forced redemption arc, Moash gets a LOT of time to work out his problems (behind the scenes, but still happening).

Plus, then he can show up if there’s a big Cosmere finale.

 

 

I absolutely love the vision of Kaladin just walking away. Wit chilling with Moash would also be really funny. I could definitely see Brandon creating the most hateable character imaginable and then letting him stick around for the rest of the cosmere.

The Rysn interlude will be from Chiri-Chiri's perspective.

Moash's fall from grace has been such a protracted thing that it would be a waste to have him get redeemed. I absolutely love him as a villain and I'd hate to lose him in any way other than in an incredible climactic battle with Kaladin.

13 hours ago, Honorless said:

I just saw this on Reddit today, OP might be interested:

https://amp.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/i3qiyt/theory_was_the_blackthorn_originally_going_to_be_a/

I love this. Somehow every minute detail in these 1200 page books has some sort of importance. I really like the idea that the Nightwatcher changed Dalinar's order.

Dalinar says a lot of awesome things at the end of Oathbringer, and it is safe to assume that at least of them is an Ideal. According to The Coppermind, Dalinar's Third Ideal is as follows. "I will take responsibility for what I had done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man." This made sense to me. Then the descriptions of the orders came out on Brandon's website. That got me thinking. Theory time:

Bondsmiths are all about unity (or maybe Unity). However, the description does say that "this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths—and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality—that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation." So it makes sense that the responsibility oath is something Dalinar would swear, it is attuned to his personal journey. But what caught my interest was the Dustbringer description, "Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape." Take Dalinar's Third Ideal out of context. His words are an oath to take responsibility. He speaks to falling and becoming something better because of it. This sounds very Dustbringer to me. And this is Brandon we're dealing with. Literally every mention of the word "passion" in this books has some hidden meaning fans have yet to uncover. I find it hard to believe that Brandon would make this oath sound so similar to that of a Dustbringer without reason.

Extrapolating like crazy, I have reached this conclusion about Bondsmiths. Here are the facts:

1.They were the leaders

2.There were three of them

3.They worked to resolve disputes

A huge theme of the Stormlight Archive is that a leader learns through diversity of experiences. Nohadon's entire life was spent learning the ways of the people he led. Who do the Bondsmiths lead? The Radiants. What if Bondsmith Oaths are borrowed from the Orders of Radiants that they govern? That would be such an incredible way to ensure that the leaders were capable of understanding and resolving disputes. Here is how I propose bondsmith progression works.

Ideal 1: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination

Ideal 2: Unity oath

Ideals 3-5: Ideals containing themes from 3 different orders of Knight's Radiant.

If there were three full Bondsmiths leading the radiants, and each of the three chose a different combination of 3 orders, that means that the Bondsmiths would, in a sense, be a part of all 9 other Orders. In addition, this diversity of Oaths and mentalities is what makes each Bondsmith so unique in abilities. Dustbringer fits Dalinar so well, and swearing that Oath allowed him to grow through a part of his life and understand the world more clearly. What Oaths are to come for him? Only time will tell. Or maybe time will only serve to disprove my theory.

I got Willshaper. My first thought was "I'm not sure I like being shoved into a certain category"

Funny how things work.

On 5/18/2020 at 6:16 PM, Aminar said:

That would destroy some of the more natural linguistic decisions Brandon has made. Language develops in strange and often stupid ways. I mean... Think of how we use branding. Shard is a little bit like the i on iPod. It's this descriptor the people have started putting before any powerful combat based Fabrials. It stems from one misuse of a word into another. The same way humanity has always done. Language changes and the meta-narrative behind that makes the world feel more real. It gives a sense of history as you can track down the bizarre little things people have twisted and misused.

Thank you so much for making me think of the "ShardPhone X"

On 5/14/2020 at 10:13 PM, SingingMosaic said:

This for some reason got my brain turning over stuff about Rock and now one of my new favorite ideas is Rock is another Bondsmith.

Also for some reason I'm only seeing half of this thread? Interesting...

Rock as a Bondsmith would be WILD. Spiritual Adhesion brings all of Roshar together over a bowl of soup.

So at the end of Oathbringer, Lunamor was able to draw and fire a Grandbow straight through Amaram's black heart. How the flip did he do this? I have no clue if anyone has done the math on the draw weights of Shardbows, but they fire arrows "as thick as three fingers", so the strength required must be incredible. They require augmenter fabrials in order to avoid shattering, and previously only people in Shardplate can fire them. I believe that Rock's miraculous shot was made possible through his status as an alaii’iku, his ability to see and communicate with spren. The augmenter fabrials involved with the bow enhance the durability of the metal, its tensile strength. If Rock was able to contact the spren, and maybe influence them with Stormlight, could he convince them to make the Shardbow more pliable? This would be like a weird offshoot of Soulcasting, where negotiations with spren lead to powerful affects. This might also relate to Tension in some way, too bad we know nothing about it.

So bottom line is I'm saying that Rock somehow talked to the spren inside the fabrial and convinced/bribed/bullied. them to make the bow easier to draw. I wish I had more evidence, but we have so little info on both Rock and Fabrials. Perhaps part of Rock's conflict after Thaylen Field came from cussing out spren (Tensionspren?), which he reveres. What does this mean for the future of Lunamor? Well, I would like to see him and Navani team up to restore Urithiru. Not only would any interactions between those two be pure gold to read, we would get to learn more about spren and fabrials, and the Urithiru light-up scene needs to happen ASAP.

Although we know absolutely nothing about them, I’m calling it here and saying it’s the Aimians 

It has been confirmed that fish in the Purelake are similar to the Aviar. Would it be appropriate to refer to the fish as Caviar?

Fringe Theory Here:

Infinity War claimed to be the "most ambitious crossover in history", this got a lot of flak. But what if this was actually true? I personally believe that this is actually a huge cosmere story in disguise. What if each of the characters and their powers are actually using forms of Investiture? Their backstories have just been huge cover-ups for when Marvel reveals that Brandon has been writing the movies all along.

The Infinity Gauntlet is actually a massively powerful fabrial. Each of the stones is a perfectly cut gemstone that most likely holds some form of godspren. 

Iron Man's suit's amazing ability to shape itself into whatever he wanted was waved away with the word "nanobots". However it makes a lot more sense that it is actually a form of Shardplate. Although we don't exactly know how Plate works, its quite likely that it could take the form of Iron Man armor. Tony Stark's flight can be attributed to the Surge of Gravitation. It makes no sense that a heavy suit of armor could fly under its own power solely relying on the little blaster things, so the idea that he is using lashings clears that up. The Shardplate is clearly augmented someway however, in order for it to shoot missiles and provide communications. Perhaps it is a blend of modern tech and Plate. In addition, the laser bursts he shoots could be simply something added onto the Plate, but since we are already assuming Stark has access to Gravitation, it is far more likely that the blasts are simply a blast of the Surge of Division. This would put Stark as a Skybreaker of at least the Fourth Ideal. This fits well with the fact that he was willing to bind the Avengers to the laws of the United Nations.

The Hulk is some form of Hemalurgic Construct very similar to Koloss. His spikes allow him to Compound pewter, giving him crazy amounts of physical strength. I'm not sure where the spikes were placed in order to allow him to control his transformation. There is so little that we know about Hemalurgy and constructs that this is extremely plausible, especially because of the fact that Koloss turn blue.

Thor's hammer and later his axe thing is a type 4 biochromatic entity. These extremely Invested objects have been given commands that allow only Thor to wield them.

Captain America and a lot of other heroes are twinborn using Allomantic Pewter and Feruchemical Gold, allowing them to be stronger and heal faster.

Rocket Racoon is a Kandra, not much more to say on this.

Spider-Man is an extreme form of an Awakening Savant. He has created a type of extremely strong and lightweight string that he gives a command such as "Grab Things" I'm not sure which heightening he is at, but he clearly has a lot of power and skill in order to swing from line to line so effortlessly. 

Doctor Strange is using a magic system currently unseen in the cosmere, although it has numerous similarities to AonDor.

In conclusion it is highly probable that all of the Marvel Heroes are using some form of shardic Investiture, I have no doubt that at some point it will be revealed that the MCU is part of the cosmere. Any holes or missing explanations in this theory will likely be explained in later cosmere novels.

I agree that graphic novels will never be able to completely capture a story like Brandon’s, but it’s nice to see a part of the cosmere that we wouldn’t get otherwise. The artwork and detail are amazing, although the shift in Chapter 6 was fairly annoying. They should’ve put a note between chapters explaining why they flopped between artwork. Plot wise, this book was far better than the first, with lots more character development and interesting moments. Two scenes left me amazed: When Kenton wondered aloud if overmastering over and over was the key to getting stronger. And when the leader of those builders revealed his very interesting name, Trell.