Fifth Scholar

This is interesting, but I have to question your logic in several ways. First of all, one of your main points is that I am a “main driver of discussion,” a term which may be rightfully applied to you, and a position that is hardly unique for me as a villager (AG4; LG42/43/46; MR29/31). My status as a driver of discussion has little bearing on the Elim kill unless you’re working from the assumption that I’m an Eliminator, which is a bad place to begin analysis. Second, even if I was an Eliminator, there is no indication as to how I would select kill targets, as you have nothing prior to this game to draw on. I’ve been an Elim exactly once, a converted one in MR31, and had no kill to work with other than one that our team was essentially directing mindlessly at the last villager we needed to kill. To add on to this, there are other players who select targets by attempting to starve the village of information, yourself again included. We don’t even know if that’s how the Elims are selecting their targets—one kill is hardly enough to see a pattern. Third, what would you have said if I had dismissed the kills as something that we couldn’t learn anything from? You likely would have (rightly) called me out on trying to stifle information. In addition, I haven’t led anyone on a “wild goose chase” anywhere, but your comment has the effect of colouring any analysis I may perform on the kills from here on, and altogether I’m unsure why you’re taking these steps. Is there any reason in particular you believe analysis should not be performed on last night’s kills?

I...apologise...if I’m setting off your unconscious Eliminator alarms? Regardless, I meant our discussion about policy lynches when I made that statement, not our viewpoints in general. Would you mind expounding upon your suspicions of me? Also, @I think I am here., there isn’t a great way to summarise the past cycle—it was mainly characterised by general lynch discussion that was very spread out which quickly shifted onto CadCom in the waning hours of the cycle, and the Night was mainly reflection on that bandwagon. Something I believe isn’t currently getting enough attention are the two kills from this cycle, with Snip and Devotary both killed. Neither particularly jumps out as an obvious target early on, which makes me think one of them may have said something in-thread, or in a PM, that got them killed, rather than a more generic early target. I’ll be hopefully looking further into their interactions later tonight.

I do agree with you on these points. My objection, as I’ve hopefully made clear, is not to this specific lynch attempt, which I believe was justified (as evidenced by the fact that I eventually added my vote to it), but rather a broader plea to avoid using this same logic to condemn others later when there aren’t the other factors present as well that contribute to a lynch case. I think we can hopefully agree that using an alignment-obscuring strategy in some posts to have a bit of fun is perfectly fine, which (as you pointed out) Stink or Alv often do, but that making it a primary consideration without the light-hearted amusement present beneath it is a more serious matter, and justifies a more serious response from the village if it begins to threaten our ability to analyse. My main point in all of this is simply that we should be careful in applying any logic that relates to playstyles when we’re analysing and voting on others, and avoid creating an “optimal” playstyle that we force others to adhere to. As I think we’ve reached a point of agreement, regardless, I think we could continue this conversation in Meta Discussion once this game is over if we believe there are unresolved points, but for now I’d prefer that this doesn’t overly distract from the lynch discussion for today, which hasn’t really started yet.

First, to respond to something Orlok said: I have expressed opposition to policy lynches, because I believe that killing somebody for acting in a way they find entertaining should not be a mark of this subforum. It is perhaps true that individuals can act in ways that reduces the value of analysis performed upon them, but the selectivity here bothers me. Take, for instance, Alv, whose Zunn the Mad character was nearly impossible to understand, let alone to analyse. Lurkers don’t post much and therefore don’t have much analyseable content; the same applies to those that post mostly RP, or those who tend to give much shorter posts that don’t explain themselves much. Yet you, and others, have defended such behaviour before, and haven’t tried to get others to change their playstyles to accomodate what you believed was an optimal method of play. I believe that principle should stand here; while I acknowledge that CadCom’s stance was detrimental to the village, he may have simply been trying out a newer playstyle, or trying to have fun by being a chaotic neutral, and lynching him for it did not sit well with me. My vote ended on CadCom because I found his analysis suspicious, not because he was making it hard to read. If he wishes it to look cryptic and contrived, he can by all means, but he should not complain if he is killed for it seeming suspicious. He can complain, however, for being killed for utilising a playstyle that was “suboptimal,” as I feel that is a direction that it would be detrimental as a community to lean towards, even if you believe it is justified in this specific instance. I agree that CadCom should have been lynched; I disagree that we should start lynching those players who consciously reduce our ability to analyse, as having fun in different ways is an integral part of SE. TL;DR—It sets a bad precedent of lynching people for playstyles, and impairs players’ ability to try out new ways of playing if they believe they will be lynched for it. In terms of my double-vote, which will likely get manipulated somehow, Shqueeves, you’ve dropped in once to make a completely random vote, but have been following the thread and presumably PMing. Care to comment publicly on recent developments? Second, I’ve gotten a good read on Elandera from PMs, and would like her to contribute her thoughts soon as well.

Orlok isn’t Influential, unfortunately; I am, and would appreciate not being Smoked tonight if that is possible, in the interests of furthering my experiment. I wouldn’t say no to being Lurched, but I think that others are likelier to be targeted, and the Lurcher should exercise their own best judgement in choosing somebody to protect.

I won’t pretend that couldn’t have gone better, but those who might say we got no information are dead wrong. I will be retreating to PMs for a while, but I want to make a public call to all @Smokers to please not target me tonight, in the interest of furthering the experiment I wished to conduct on Orlok, which I’ll have to do on myself tonight.

This is actually a fair point. As Ark did provide his reasoning somewhat, I’ll retract from him (though I would like to hear more from him), and consider Orlok’s case on CadCom. Let me go over CadCom’s posts so far. General check-in post, and as he actually did follow this up, NAI. RP, then a transition into discussion about the Praise votes. I can’t really decipher what he’s trying to say, as it’s rambling and uses a lot of words to say not that much. Soft-defense on Fura that also uses a lot of words, then a vote on Joe. That vote isn’t terribly abnormal, and isn’t the worst reason to vote on him, but the vote for Devotary is odd, as she was neither mentioned nor posted when CadCom said this. As such, if CadCom flips Elim, Devotary is a good target to be Coinshot or lynched. Steel calls him out on this, and CadCom acknowledges his mistake and changes his vote. His defense is interesting, however, as it seems fairly difficult to confuse a person who hasn’t posted with one who has. I suppose he couldn’t really have said anything else, though. CadCom did apparently read the rules, and a lot closer than I did This is long, so I’m breaking it up into sections corresponding to the numbers I’ve added to CadCom’s post. 1. First paragraph doesn’t say much, conveying vague villager-y sentiments in a vague villager-y excitable tone. In other words, I don’t trust that paragraph to be anything more than glorified fluff. His objections to the Snipexe lynch are fair, and I won’t fault him for that. With his section on praising Orlok, he again doesn’t really say much other than that he’s fine with it, and invokes a fairly pointless IKYK. Normally I wouldn’t go too far into any of this, but the apparent length of the post is deceptive, and fits into a broader pattern of CadCom using a lot of words to say not much. As such, a fairly heavy elim read. 2. Cutting through the jargon, CadCom essentially seems to be saying that the Elims might try to rotate control of the Influential role, but that now they might not because it could be too obvious, if the Influential vote does seem like it’s rotating it might be suspicious, and that the village might have the numbers to out-vote the Elims anyway. Even though I agree with most of it, it seems both circular and unnecessarily wordy, and again isn’t saying that much. Slight elim read. 3. Backs off Joe vote. Nothing much here that I see as AI, though others are free to analyse it. 4. The only thing CadCom seems to be actually saying here is that there’s likely an Elim somewhere in the votes, a fairly safe bet when there’s nine people who have been voted on. 5. No actual analysis here, just summary of what people have already said. 6. The last three paragraphs don’t say much at all. I agree with Orlok that the “analysis” in CadCom’s post is not actually helping out the village, and the main purpose of it seems to be to allow CadCom to look as though he’s posting analysis, without him actually doing any. Final impressions on post: Mostly vague statements coated in fluff, uses a lot of words that don’t need to be used, and gives me a significant elim read. An RP post follows this one, which is good but not AI, so I’m leaving it out of my analysis. My thoughts on this echo Orlok's; this is not a villager sentiment. I am ambivalent about Orlok’s vote because it sounds a bit like a policy lynch, which leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but in this case I believe that CadCom is a legitimate suspect for his fluff-posting in addition to this post above, which justifies the lynch for me. Cadmium Compounder, Orlok Tsubodai.

Any reasoning as to why I was selected as a Praise target, out of curiousity? In regards to your point about Orlok, it is true that he is a dangerous player. However, he is also dangerous as a villager, and I believe that seeing what he does with the double vote next cycle will prove interesting. There are other reasons as well, most notably to garner others’ reactions to Orlok’s acquisition of power, which should help inform us on people’s alignments. Finally, while I do disagree with the Fura lynch (and the Snip lynch, now that he’s posted), I’m curious as to why you see Jondesu as a better target. Tagging complete inactives can often be more effective than a lynch vote—a vote can be placed later if the person doesn’t say enough/says something suspicious, but a vote on somebody who doesn’t see that vote, unless there is public consensus to lynch an inactive, is fairly useless. Guilty as charged, sorry. That’s what I get for assuming AG Rules were in effect for the main roles. Ark, why are you voting for them? In particular, I find it off-putting that you copied my exact vote. If you are following my lead, an admission of such would be appreciated; if not, what are your own reasons for picking these players? I did indeed say that. Snipexe has checked in, and I suppose I retract from Orlok at the same time as well. However, I disagree with your views on Ark—while I hardly like his bandwagon, I do not see it as alignment indicative for him, at least not yet. That said, it has more backing than many of the current lynch choices, so I suppose it’s not an entirely bad thing. Yes, it would appear Nohadon voted for me. I’m curious as to how you think that my post represents an inconsistency in my views. I believe that Houses should be a secondary objective; similarly, I see a Coinshot as being a potent tool in the hands of a person who puts their House first, and as such see a lower probability of any House having one, unless it is much smaller than the others. As such, my advice from before still stands: if players put their village status above their House status, issues like the Coinshot one I described above wouldn’t exist, even if Wyrm had given one to a House. I am in full agreement with Aonar here, and would go further to say that the current focus on Praise is likely unhealthy. While it is a new mechanic, a public double-vote tomorrow that will likely get Soothed or Rioted somewhere is not as consequential as the death of one of the players. Mmm...I don’t see the Elims as trying to do this, as I feel they would be more subtle. If the Praise vote begins obviously rotating command, we have cause to be suspicious that something like this is happening; not before then. Since I’d rather not quote a bunch of people at once, I’d like to extend a general request to those voting mostly without reasoning provide at least some justification for where their vote now lies. For myself, Ark, as I’d like to get more reasoning as to why he backed my vote the way he did, and Orlok, to cement his near-certain status as Praised, and to carry out the experiment I want to try on a more experienced Praised player.

All hail...Queen Ialai? That sounds so wrong Good on Jasnah and Ivory for finishing the Desolation-preventing work I’d started. I’d also congratulate Tearim, but he was kind of an Elim, so...yeah. But he did kill Klade, so I guess that’s a good thing. My identity-guessing skills are actually terrible, it seems. Oh well. All the RP this game was excellent, and I hope it’s a trend that continues past this game. Special shoutouts to Wit, Sadeas and Szeth, all of whose RP I greatly enjoyed. I feel pretty good (as Adolin) that I attempted to kill most of the “elim” players this game, and as I mentioned in the dead doc, I was kind of shocked at how often I was correct. I would like to apologise to all the people I killed, though, especially Darkness (though I maintain that it was not my fault). Finally, thanks to @little wilson, @Orlok Tsubodai and @Elbereth for the considerable amount of work they poured into this game, and for keeping it balanced throughout, a difficult task with many moving parts. I greatly enjoyed this game, and even if it is unlikely that there will be another like it, I’m glad I was able to experience something this delicately complex at least once.

My apologies if it came off as flattery—the RP was supposed to make you seem more enigmatic, which fits you better, I’m sure, but I blame any hints of favouritism on our alliance in LG42. Olaf has a long memory, and it appears that manifests itself when I’m writing out his thoughts. (It also doesn’t help that I’m essentially novelising Olaf for NaNoWriMo just to get me into writing more, and so I’ve been immersed in his perspective more thoroughly than perhaps I should be.) In terms of praise-voting you, it was more of a way of finding somewhere to dump my Praise vote where I wouldn’t accidentally regret it too much if I forgot to change it; you tend to be sensible when you’re village, so you were an easy target. Most likely I’ll revise that vote later once I build more trust reads. Do we know if a Tineye is alive, and PMs are open? Also, more generally (as I’m going to go to sleep fairly soon, hopefully), what do people think about our odds of having some of these roles in the game? I’d guess we don’t have a Coinshot, as I feel that would overly empower one house, but I could definitely see Seekers or Lurchers existing, potentially multiple.

If one had peered down the alleyway leading to a seemingly unimportant series of storefronts in the Eighth Octant, a second glance would hardly have been spared for the man who emerged from one of the closely packed storefronts. A tall silhouette, erect yet ragged, supporting part of his weight with a cane. Hardly different from any other older man in the city, if perhaps with a more regal bearing. Looks, as Olaf knew full well, could be deceiving. A closer inspection of the man concealed in the alleyway would have revealed the long socks pulled up to hide a tattoo which still looked as though it had been branded yesterday. It would have seen the long, bushy eyebrow furrowed beneath a balding scalp, and the glinting eyes underneath it. And, of course, it would have recognised the supposed cane in the aged man’s right hand which was actually a thin rapier, and the smaller yet wiry muscles underneath his skin that suggested he could still use it. Slowly pacing down the street, rapier used for support, Count Olaf drew near to the gathering of nobles, a piece of paper from the master forger he had just left clutched in his right fist. Ancestry documents, proving ties to a major House in the heart of Elendel. He’d needed new ones printed after an unfortunate accident which had destroyed the old copies. Who would have thought a discarded, smouldering cigar left on his table would set it on fire? Tragic accident though it was, his newly discovered ties to a major House would be important in leveraging connections with the other nobles gathered in the square. It’s been too long, he thought with exhilaration. As he walked towards the gathering, he scanned faces. Snip Exeutor—a quiet man, he would have to keep a closer eye on him. Fura, a noblewoman, who shot him a disdainful glare and muttered something to Snip. Perhaps when he was younger, Olaf could have heard it, but as it was an ear trumpet had proven necessary to hear whispers at his advanced age, and it wasn’t exactly subtle. He nearly did a double take upon seeing a man of indiscriminate age, with a cool fire behind his eyes, rationality flowing from every syllable. Surely that could not be... Olaf angrily dismissed the thought. Even if it was the same Locke Tekiel who he had dealt with in his youth, a man who did not age was not likely on a level he could deal with. Instead, he merged with the crowd, glancing around for his informants. I am open to RP with anybody. Regarding the jump on Fura, while I disagree with her stance on D1 lynches, I will point out that it is not an uncommon one for newer players to hold (see: me C1 in AG4), and that judging her stance in light of something that takes more experience to cultivate seems slightly unfair. I also believe that Fura perhaps took my vote too seriously, which I feel is important to clear up. @Furamirionind, I was employing something generally referred to as a poke vote, which is just a way to get a person to respond or provide more information, and is not meant to be an attempt on the person’s life. I voted Snip because I don’t want him to get away with slipping into the shadows after making a shorter introductory post, in addition to wanting to get some opinions from him and start a broader lynch discussion (which I’m pleased to see has already begun). On this note, if they have time later, I would appreciate hearing more detailed thoughts from @Cadmium Compounder and @Gancho Libre, who have also kindly checked in but said little else. When you all have time, your thoughts are welcomed.

Hey everyone! I won’t be making this super-long, but I want to hit a few key points before I make a longer RP post, with perhaps any game thoughts that might have occurred, later tonight. 1. Remember that this is not a faction game. We are looking for Eliminators, not trying to kill everyone who isn’t in your house. Prioritise finding Elims above helping out your housemates, as one will actually affect whether we all win or not. 2. Don’t read too much into the Houses, and trust nobody. If your house has five people and three are dead and flipped village, don’t regard your housemate as an incontrovertible Elim. Similarly, if an Elim in your house is lynched or Coinshot, don’t just blindly trust your remaining house members. Many don’t remember, but I’ve been told that Wyrm is an unrepentant troll. I assume this extends to role distribution as well—don’t expect to find one Elim neatly in every House. 3. Snip Exeutor (Snipexe), just as a reminder to post later, as I’d like to hear his contributions, and also because I’d rather not wait until the last 2 hours of the Day to start lynch discussion. Similarly, Locke Tekiel (Orlok Tsubodai). Aside from being greatly praiseworthy, I’d like to hear from Orlok, and also believe that giving him all the political power is definitely a wise move.

The Lord Heron may have claimed to be the only surviving man old enough to remember a meeting before the Lord Ruler. Yet another such man existed. In fact, he had been his vassal for a time. The man had been forged in the fires of arson and treachery as a young teenager, hardening and twisting his soul beyond recognition. His subsequent adoption by the Lord Claincy Ffnord, and that lord’s subsequent death, had resulted in the gradual unwinding of that twisted soul, reforming it into something greater. It was that process that had allowed the man to survive a bloody and prolonged house war, and to come out, with only three others, with his life intact. Yet the Lord Ruler had not let the insatiable drive for revenge and arson go unutilised. Becoming Spiked, the man was warped yet again, sent to Tathingdwen to finalise the destruction of the Lord Ruler’s most hated and feared enemies: the Feruchemists of the Synod. Yet that too went awry. Resisting control, and befriending those who would support and save him, the man crawled out of the city injured, heartbroken, and full of righteous rage against the Lord Ruler, but his spikes—all twelve—were gone. And so he returned to Luthadel. Elendel, as it was now called. And through his later years, the man would participate in daring exploits, deeds of arson and vengeance and treachery, yet now guided by his own principles, basic though they were. Nobility and mystery were his hallmarks, and few questioned his authority, not even those over him in his house. Yet all was now changed. Old and frail though he was, the man had lost but a portion of his vigour and fiery will. And when their Houses were threatened yet again, he remembered his youth—the house war he had fought through then—and knew that now was the time to rise from the ashes of his past. White-haired, having lost little of his height, even less of his beard, and none of his forbidding presence and glistening eye, Count Olaf is setting off on his final adventure. Here’s to hoping for some secret arson mechanics

That was my goal on the cycle after I was converted (which wasn’t until cycle five, and after suspicion had been mounting against me for a few turns from several sources even while I was village), and my defense was specifically engineered to inspire a tentative, transient trust. I’ll admit I was very surprised when you claimed to me, though. I thought at most I’d be able to get a kill or two among the Wildmen. Your confession was far more useful, though, even if Alv and Devotary already had you figured out with fairly reasonable certainty. Well done, yes, even if some of your suspicion was left over from when I was innocent. After your persistent accusations, I was resigned to my lynch after cycle 6, and really didn’t bother trying to keep up my façade with too much effort, mainly doing it to instill complacency so we could hammer Crimsn. I tried to stoke paranoia about Itiah to drive a wedge into the lynch, dividing the results, but that really didn’t go very far. And I would say that you were more than active enough. You may not have made as many posts as, say, Coop or BR, but you were a very consistent contributor, voiced your suspicions, and didn’t go inactive. That’s an excellent standard of activity. Speaking of activity, the lack of it was fairly disheartening this game. Even though our plan to convert Crimsn worked, the fact that I had only one serious vote on me was disconcerting, given that I was nearly outed at that point for tying myself so closely to the Bard lynch, and in my opinion our hammer was a little too easy. (Not that it felt that way waking up at 3 AM before a XC meet to do it. ) I’m not sure where the general issue was, but the fact that I ended up clearing a good number of people, and even factions, in my analyses due to inactivity was again very sad. That said, those who were active were great, and I especially enjoyed my PM with Maill (back when I was village). That was definitely a lot of fun. Some other comments—I think this was one of my better games in terms of how my strategies worked out—part of why I stressed Itiah so much to scan our faction was because I had lingering suspicions of Shqueeves from our PM. Alv’s status as an Elim did completely blindside me, though, and my ambivalence about Devotary I felt throughout never translated itself into the suspicion I had for Bard, even if I read her PMs. (I would have liked to see what would have happened if Devotary had no forewarning that the scan was coming.) I also made it a lot easier on future!Spirit!me by conveniently accidentally securing the deaths of two gang leaders in the same night. Upon becoming a Spirit, I mainly acted as a facilitator of Alvron’s continued health, and as an alibi for his healing. (It was nice to have EE’s support later, even though I was lying through my teeth about my cycle four action.) I had actually tried to spy on Joe’s PMs C4, and was masterfully trolled by the Master Troll. I should have expected no less. As my first time as an Eliminator, the experience was enlightening. It’s a lot harder channeling village!Fifth when I’m in a doc with red text at the top, especially when I came into that doc with a good bit of suspicion already accumulated. As things stood I just delayed long enough for Devotary and Alv (who were amazing to work with, by the way) to do all the dirty work of finishing off Crimsn. I’m somewhat sad to see my eternal village status be consigned to oblivion after nearly a year of having kept it faithfully, but at least I could plead that I became evil against my will. (I didn’t—being evil was great fun, and I’m grateful to Devotary and Alv for letting me share in their victory.) Final thoughts: -A huge thank you to Joe and Darkness for running this. Especially thanks to Darkness for his writeups, which I greatly enjoyed. -Thank you to RNG and Devotary’s decision-making for letting me be in all of the game’s factions save one. I still feel that if the Wildmen had held off for a cycle with attacking BR, I could have been in all five. -I again apologise to Elandera, who I should have listened to on C3. Also sorry to all the people I tried to get killed over the course of the game. :>

I have nothing more to say, and I hope you all remember how honest I’ve been to you. :> For self preservation, maybe, Itiah, Crimsn.

Sorry for the double post, but a significant enough time has lapsed that I feel it merits a new post. I will be basically offline for the rest of the cycle, so I am essentially finished with contesting my lynch. My fate is in your hands at this point. Please choose wisely, and if you’re at all interested in talking to me, ask in thread for a PM (or shoot me one if you’re Independent). Because we appear to be ticking ever closer to the Doomsday Clock, I will be using my Hrathen vote to get him to call off the Invasion. I’d rather that we have time to analyse everybody in the depth and for the length of time we need to, instead of being constrained in how long we need to take to find the Spirits by an outside counter.

Yes, it is. And I stand by it. I did bring up earlier the fact that Itiah may have been converted, but didn’t act on it because I believed I had better targets. Bard’s flip as village surprised me, but it also allowed me to realise that a lot of my suspicion of him (and you, and Devotary) had been grounded in Itiah’s scans, which, as I have outlined above, may not be trustworthy. I stand by my assertion that the Spirits are focused on finding Shaor and staying hidden, both of which are helped along by converting Dashe. Also, do you have any reasoning beyond “bad vibes” as to why you suspect and are voting on me? What about me is suspicious? Do you have any thoughts on anything I said about Itiah beyond my supposed hypocrisy?

Okay, here goes. @I think I am here., you posit that Crimsn is the traitor in the Wildmen’s doc by virtue of a very long chain of reasoning, but unfortunately it seems contingent on something that didn’t actually happen. I believe your interpretation of how “fighting back” works is flawed; it doesn’t nullify the attack, but it does retaliate against those who made it. So if Crimsn actually had attacked Xino and Xino had fought back, assuming neither was Shaor, both would have died. While I am very confused as to how the actual attacks went down last cycle, and do believe that some explaining is likely in order (such as how Xino survived a presumed attack, and how on Sel the attacks got so spread out), I don’t think your version of events is possible, and accusing Crimsn for it is a terrible move for the village. See, from my PM with Crimsn, she was actively advocating for the Wildmen not to cannibalise, and it’s my understanding that she presented a similar view in your doc. While she is obviously not fully trustworthy, the strange recurring lynch attempts on her are making me want to clear her more, almost, and her general tone is making me want to trust her as well. This isn’t very conclusive evidence, but what you presented isn’t very thorough either, and I don’t think Crimsn should be lynched this cycle (or at all). Why? She is one of four remaining possible Shaors. Four. Let that sink in a minute. The Spirits may already know who Shaor is, but we shouldn’t be narrowing the field for them, and we really shouldn’t be lynching a potential Shaor when we really need to focus outside the Wildmen. Remember that Shaor can’t be killed by her own men, so any attempt on her life will come through the lynch, or not at all. (She could potentially still be converted but the supposed lack of conversions amongst the Wildmen that Itiah presented indicates to me that they’re likely out of them, even though I think those results are perhaps bogus. But I’m getting ahead of myself here) However, Itiah, there’s a potential traitor among the Wildmen that isn’t Shaor, and has no chance of being Shaor at all. It’s you. Your conversion makes a lot of sense to me right now. As Dashe, you are easily able to warp our perceptions of how the factions are balanced, and therefore have a large say in where the lynch ends up. Having the suspicions confirmed about a Galladon!Independent on the same cycle that the thread was looking at Bard, Meta and I very closely helped reinforce the lynch on one of us. This cycle, you’re focusing on the traitor in the Wildmen, and advocating for the lynch of Crimsn. I can’t say that she’s innocent, but she is a potential Shaor, and I think that eliminating one of those until we get either a Shaor claim, or more information, is a very bad thing. I’m unsure how much the Wildmen Spirit(s), whether Itiah or others, have been able to narrow down who they think Shaor is, but if Crimsn was one of their top choices I could easily see them trying to force through a Crimsn lynch this cycle towards the end. This is conjecture, but is definitely worth considering when we can’t really trust anybody. Further points against Itiah: two Independents is realistic, but also seems a little on the higher end. With Bard dead, and Walin a very unlikely Galladon or convert, that leaves two out of four people to be Spirits among the Independents. Knowing my own alignment, I find it difficult to believe that out of three complete Independents, two were Eliminators, especially since one would have to be a convert. However, one Wildman also seems on the very low end of things. The Spirits would have very little incentive to convert anywhere outside the Wildmen from BR’s death onwards, in order to accumulate both kills and eliminate/spy on potential Shaors. Itiah fits the bill perfectly; he has access to a kill action with his status as a Wildman, and also incriminating information with his scans as a villager, and the ability to mislead with them once he becomes an Eliminator. Converting him would be a very smart move, if not immediately then soon thereafter, especially given the comparative lack of attention to Itiah’s alignment preceding this. After his conversion, he could lie and say there was only one traitor amongst the Wildmen, presumably to mask himself from scrutiny as the Wildmen look around for his teammate, but mostly ignore him as a threat. Finally, I asked Itiah to scan the Barons last night. While I understand this could be village!Itiah not trusting me, village!Itiah would also presumably want to see if I was worth trusting, and since I’m the only Baron left who has any significant chance of being a convert, he essentially could have scanned me last night. He chose instead to check out the Wildmen, giving him the opportunity to shape our views on this most influential faction. Finally: regarding my likelihood of being converted; what would the Spirits gain? They already have at least one Independent, and while healing is nice, it’s hardly necessary if they’re staying in the shadows of the game, or are in more trusted positions. In addition, as I’ve said earlier, the Spirits would likely want to funnel their conversion attempts into finding Shaor or obtaining Wildmen assassins and spies, and any attempt outside of the Wildmen is essentially a waste. Finally, the risk of Itiah scanning the Barons and outing me almost immediately would be great enough as to strongly disincentivise my conversion. While it’s true that I’m far from clear, and that I’ve landed on the wrong side of many lynches, I believe Itiah is a better candidate here.

Okay, I’m very much regretting that I won’t be able to make a long post right now because if I had the time I would respond to just about everything Itiah just said. However, when I return in 12-14 hours, I will lay out my thoughts, which are near innumerable. For now, I’ll posit that Hrathen has many potential uses, and we should consider what to do with him very carefully.

Okay, I am sorry for my brief spurt of inactivity—life got hectic enough the past day or two that I was barely able to read my doc and PMs in depth, let alone meaningfully contribute to them, or to the thread. In a weird coincidence, I can attest to the innocence (well, not innocence, but lack of proven guilt) of both Alv and Meta. I healed Alv on cycle four after being asked to in PM, placing my order after debating whether I thought Alv was a Spirit!Wildman trying to get extra longevity (I ultimately got enough of a good toneread/village sense from his comments that I decided he was probably unconverted, though I’m less certain now, given that most of the Wildmen are or were under imminent threat of conversion), and then in cycle five he told me three Wildmen were going to attack MetaTerminal, so I healed Meta to see how many would actually follow through. By the time plans had switched, my order was placed and I was asleep. Sorry I didn’t see your edit when I responded to your earlier post, Bard, or I would have cleared this up sooner. From what I understand targets are informed when they are healed, so @Alvron and @MetaTerminal can confirm this. I am curious as to why Alv didn’t respond himself to these allegations, however, and would like to hear more from him. Same for Meta, though he has addressed this at least partially. I am feeling less good about my Bard read, but he’s still my best guess as to Galladon. My second pick would probably be Devotary, whose voting patterns have been somewhat strange, and seemed to be hedging against Bard’s lynch oddly (which would make sense if they were Eliminator partners). However, as I have little other reason to suspect her, and because I believe Bard’s alignment flip could be potentially informative in regards to Devotary and others, I will vote for Young Bard. If anyone has a better idea, I am certainly open to it, but we need to act quickly if we want a consensus before the cycle closes.

@I think I am here., that is...disconcerting. I believe this is as hard confirmation as we’re going to get of Independent!Galladon, who will likely be one of [Bard, Drought, Devotary, Meta]. I really don’t like any of the four, but I especially don’t like the way in which Bard was saved last cycle. Call this a tunnel (and you’d probably be right) but I am seeing the odd way votes swung on and off him at the end of last cycle as potentially informative, and the lynch on CadCom looked almost like an attempt to swing it away from an Independent, Bard, to a potential Shaor, CadCom. I’ll go back over last cycle, but this would make me more immediately suspicious of Devotary as well, though I’m still unsure on her. Drought, though fairly inactive, was still acting suspiciously at the beginning of the game IMO, and I wouldn’t be adverse to seeing him killed. Meta is possible, but less likely; I’m reading him more as confused and new than anything else. I believe Walin is likely too inactive at this point to be Galladon or a convert, though I could be wrong on this. That leaves me, of course. While I am relatively trusted, as a self-proclaimed Baron, the Eliminators would have next to no reason to waste a conversion on me; if they have any left, they gain more from narrowing the field of potential Shaors (which is rapidly shrinking by the way; could the Wildmen not self-target so much?) than from trying to pick up trust. I suppose the argument could be made that they wanted eyes in the Barons, but so little has happened in that doc it’s kind of sad. Finally, regarding the timing of any conversion on me; as Bard said, it would have had to happen after the conversion/death of BR and Elandera, at which point I don’t think the Spirits would be trying to convert anybody except Wildmen. As a final note, it is possible that Itiah is lying, as a Wildman convert, and it’s not implausible. That said, again because I believe the Spirits are focusing on converting Shaor, and because he is definitively ruled out, I am inclined to believe him for now.

@Devotary of Spontaneity My main issue with the lynch train on CadCom was how quickly it sprung up, with fairly little opposition. While that isn’t a great reason to dislike it, there’s also the contribution of Bard to the CadCom lynch, which I don’t like thanks to my ambivalent feelings about him, and I have a desire to re-examine both the Wildmen and Independents to see what I can dig up. CadCom isn’t off my suspicions list, but he’s certainly moving towards the bottom, and I have other people I’m more focused on (namely the active Independents and Wildmen, some of whom I trust and some of whom I do not).

But what makes him a good candidate for the lynch over, say, Bard or Drought, or Itiah, who have also been broached as potential lynch targets?

Did anyone notice that we have 5 cycles left until the Invasion now? We should be on 6 cycles left, if we were on-track. This makes me think something happened behind the scenes, and that we’re running out of time. Also @Steeldancer @Kidpen Do either of you have reasons to suspect CadCom? Going with the prevailing logic without at least stating what parts of it you agree with isn’t going to get us very far. In addition, could someone who’s been accusing CadCom pull out the actual reasoning being used to condemn him? @Cadmium Compounder I understand your motive for self-defense, but do you have other thoughts on Bard or anyone else? If you have a defence, could you state it?

The issue with this theory is the cost/benefit ratio. It would be much easier in the tumult of the initial cycles to simply convert and then scatter all the Children, if I had started as Galladon, rather than running some elaborate lie to gain transient trust that wouldn’t last more than a cycle in a conversion game, and indeed get me suspected for being a good conversion target, as is happening now. Sorry, forgot this after a flurry of PMs. My main reasoning was that some of your posts felt exaggerated in tone, like your one at the end of last cycle, and also it feels like you’re trying to pocket me, which I’m leery of ever since the AG. That said, my case is less comprehensive than it likely should be, and I’ll probably reassess my vote later today. I think so, yes. And I don’t necessarily see malicious intent—they may be mostly inactive, or simply choosing to keep their abilities secret to avoid being targeted.