BraidedRose

So I think this idea is fun, but to be honest, at the same time I think you’re probably stretching a little far to make it fit. The main parallel is one man with three women. But like @Humming said, Adolin doesn’t really remind me of Rand at all either. And we have Adolin saying clearly he only wants Shallan, not Veil. And does he even explicitly know Radiant as her own identity? I know he has interacted with her during sparring but I’m not sure how aware he is that Shallan is different at those times. The rest behind a spoiler tag for discussion of WoT characters: All in all though, it isn’t really the female personalities or archetypes that make it a stretch. I definitely see enough similarities to think you could be on to something. But in the end Rand and Adolin just do not seem parallel to me and Adolin clearly doesn’t seem to be in love with all three. It remains to be seen if he can be in love with an integrated, true Shallan. Interesting to think about though!

So I generally agree that Shallan doesn’t really know what she is doing here. I would say she seems to be operating with a kind of instinct though as to what she should do, especially with Re-shephir. I haven’t reread the parts with Sja-anat yet so I don’t remember that in as much detail. But with her dealings with the Unmade, to me it is more her nerve/bravery that is impressive than it is skill. I do agree that she could lose her powered up light weaving skills at some point. In fact, I think it is a likely outcome of stress in her bond with Pattern, so I definitely expect to see that in the next book. I would like to see Shallan have much more control over her abilities after (hopefully) re-integrating and repairing the bond.

On Shallan’s progress in OB I agree with a couple of different points made. On the one hand I agree with @GoddessIMHO that Shallan actually shows far greater power in her abilities at the end. That and confronting Unmade are some impressive tasks for someone who seems to be barely holding herself together. On the other hand: I couldn’t agree more with the above. There’s a lot of emphasis at the beginning on Shallan repressing thoughts of her mother and her hatred for Pattern. Then she adds repressing thoughts of Helaran to that and if anything we see her think about these things less at the end, suggesting for the time being she has successfully repressed those thoughts. One moment that was striking is when she is reunited with her brothers at the end I would expect that to be a moment when thoughts of her mother or Helaran would try to surface but we don’t see that at all. Instead Shallan is described as “giddy” and also quickly asks for her brothers to be taken away so she can read Mraize’s letter. So when it comes to confronting truths she doesn’t want to face I think she is clearly worse at the end than she was at the beginning of OB.

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving. But being absent for a few weeks is a terrible idea. I've caught up on the dozen or more pages I missed but it's hard to sum up all the thoughts I have now, but here goes. On Adolin's wasted potential: there was some interesting discussion here. I get the argument that Brandon's intention has always been for Adolin to be a secondary character and a straightforward "normal guy." I don't follow that line of thinking to accept that as a good explanation for we don't get a clearer understanding or sense of emotional depth from Adolin's feelings for Shallan. The thing is I don't even accept lack of pages as a good reason for some missed opportunities on Adolin overall. For a secondary character he actually does have far more page time than anyone other than the main three characters. At the same time I have some hope that there will be more payoff for Adolin in the future. For some reason Brandon has chosen to give Adolin the page time he has, and if he really has no more significant arc in mind for him, why even make him a viewpoint character at all? On Adolin's character flaws, overall I agree with the idea that none are really well developed. The main flaw that is clearly introduced in the beginning is Adolin's issues with relationships. I don't think womanizer is an accurate term to describe him. I don't think he has intentions to use women, but I also question how serious he is about a long term relationship for his own sake vs societal and family expectations. His heart doesn't really seem in it although the failures do get to him and that probably adds some incentive to finally make one work, especially once he is with Shallan who he sees as exceptional and does at least have some genuine liking and attraction for (what she allows him to see anyway). I would really expect there to be some stakes for Adolin when he talks to Shallan about giving her up, but we didn't get it (for no good reason) and so the most obvious explanation is that Adolin really is looking to get out at that point. But as others so astutely pointed out, she ropes him back in the most effective way possible by appealing to him to help her. Given who Adolin is and the pressure both internal and external he probably feels to make it work, it would be very hard for him to insist on walking away at that point, though I really wish he had. As for any other flaws I'm not really convinced by a lot of the arguments that have him as extreme in any quality. He seems middle of the road to me on a lot of the potential issues that were raised. Especially when it comes to perceptiveness, I think he did miss some important moments of Shallan not being okay, while he does much better with Renarin, so I don't really see this a character defining quality for good or bad. There was some fascinating information shared from beta readers and the WoB on Shallan's masks. Unfortunately these kinds of tidbits worry me the most for the overall sense that maybe Brandon and the majority of readership has a very different perspective than I on the ending of this arc in OB. I go back and forth with feeling like I better prepare myself for being very disappointed with where things go from here and feeling really encouraged by moments of what appear to be clear symbolism such as Shallan sitting/standing at key moments. I do worry about my bias affecting how I read things. I'm still early in my reread and trying to really keep an open mind and pay attention to impressions as well as details. i think the thing that would disappoint me the most is having to accept that Shallan's choice to marry Adolin (or anyone, wouldn't have been okay with Kaladin at that point either) at the time and under the circumstances she does was a healthy choice we should celebrate. I couldn't agree more that having Shallan supposedly recognize her true self because Adolin squeezes her hand at the right time and then marrying him because without him she loses her true self ("fades") is deeply troubling. There was great discussion about accepting support from romantic partners vs relying on them to make your crucial decisions. And I agree that the former is wonderful and realistic but the latter takes away agency from the character and is not something I want to see being portrayed as healthy. I would also be disappointed not to see further exploration of Shallan's response to Helaran, but on that I would be shocked if we don't see more. Her repressing those thoughts were so clear and really highlights how important that actually is to her. All the more reason for her to push all of her feelings for Kaladin into a personality that can deal with it. Between Jasnah, Adolin and Helaran it's really no wonder that she does. Finally, I firmly believe we will see a stress in the bond with Pattern explored in the next book, similar to what happened with Kaladin and Syl. Her lies multiplied and deepened in this book and we haven't seen the consequences for that yet. I certainly hope and don't really believe she will kill him. I hopes this is what causes her to embrace her full/true self and level up.

I was surprised how much Elhokar's death's gave me the feels in OB, and not for Kaladin's sake but for Elhokar's. I would not have predicted that. "You cannot have my pain" got me too. I feel like there were more moments in WoK and WoR overall though it's harder to pinpoint. Definitely Kaladin's oaths. Parts of the chasm sequence in WoR.

@maxal I appreciate that you are very strong and clear on your point of view. We probably have to just agree to disagree on some points. I think quite a bit of the disagreement actually comes from having different interpretations or impressions of both characters (more so Dalinar, I think we actually largely agree on Adolin as he stands currently). But I like that BS writes very complex characters that are open to a lot of interpretations so that's to be expected. The only other point I'll add is on the following: You say OC needs to be an individual capable of great evil, and naturally I expect that OC will do great evil. But I suspect that the act of becoming OC would change a person, opening them up further to his influence, and however Odium is able to affect them from that point on might make them far more capable of evil than they were previously. For instance, Odium might be able to suppress the parts of that person that would stop them from evil acts, once they had agreed to accept something from him. I think becoming OC requires susceptibility to his influence, a strong incentive to give into the temptation of what he offers (in the case of Dalinar it was the chance to be free from the nearly unbearable pain of responsibility, but he might offer something else to another person). And probably it requires some steps towards evil along the way, but they may not need to get all the way there on their own. I certainly hope that if such a thing occurs it is fleshed out and we see enough steps along the way so that it doesn't feel abrupt (ahem *Anakin* cough). I certainly don't expect to see Adolin as he is now one chapter and then completely evil the next. And I don't think at this point in the story Adolin does have enough reason to be susceptible to Odium, it just seems possible that a character that we now put on the good side could change enough to become susceptible and eventually be swayed.

It’s an interesting idea. Unfortunately, I do think Shallan’s splitting started becoming a serious issue well before we see her interact with Sja-anat so in my reading of it the options are Shallan is mad or Shallan is mad and corrupted. So I hope you’re wrong because I think Shallan has enough to be getting on with without corruption by an Unmade. Still, you bring up some interesting quotes. Wish I had more to offer at the moment but maybe others noticed more about this already and can add to the discussion.

@Dreamstorm thank you for articulating all of that in more detail than I could! I agree with your analysis and think your conclusion is also the most likely explanation for where things stand now.

So partially I think you are arguing against some points that I haven't and wouldn't actually make myself, but that aside I will try to respond to clarify some of my points. Bottom line I think is that you just don't believe based on what we've seen that Adolin could become OC, and that's fine, I'm definitely not trying to convince you that it is possible. I happen to think it is still one interesting possibility among others. Maybe the difference partially comes down to each of our assumptions about what OC must be. You suspect that OC must be a monster prior to becoming OC, I'm not sure this is true (but neither of us knows for sure at this point). Would you consider Dalinar to be a monster at the point Odium is trying to convince him to become his champion? I would argue that he was a monster prior to Cultivation's pruning but that he is far from a monster now. And I don't think the reason he didn't become OC is because he is not a monster, I think he could have in that moment but chose under extreme duress to defy him. Based on that I suspect a similar person in a similar circumstance could have chosen to give in to Odium, which opens up a lot more possibilities for who it could be, if indeed Odium will get to choose another after Dalinar's refusal. I agree that Odium was grooming Dalinar for a long time and if he gets to choose another, it may take a lot of work on whoever that is as well, it won't be simply applying pressure for a few minutes on another random person. To be clear about the point I made about being born under the sign of nine: I do not at all believe that being born under the sign of nine in any way predisposes Adolin to be influenced by Odium. I just believe that Brandon didn't mention it for no reason, but it could be a different reason. About people not making a 180 degree turn or fundamentally changing: partially I agree but not 100%. I would argue in an extreme case people may do a 180 turn (Dalinar with a lot of help for example) but in most cases people grow and evolve along the lines they tend towards. I believe Adolin basically is a good person but parts of him are still unclear to me. I find his viewpoints not very internally focused so I don't feel I understand his character as in depth as I do Kaladin for example. Shallan is another one that is hard to understand for different reasons because she is an unreliable narrator. And again, I'm operating under the assumption that Adolin (or anyone else for that matter) wouldn't necessarily have to do a 180 to become OC but I could be wrong. Either way, if we are going to see someone really unexpected become OC it will have to be justified with a lot of development before we get there, but I trust that BS would do it well if he went in that direction. I'm not sure whether I believe the contest of champions is over or not. It seems possible but I still question what would stop Odium from choosing another champion. At the very least I don't believe it is really explicit from what we have read so far. If Odium is now barred from choosing another because his first choice refused him then that needs to be clearer in the narrative going forward. As to why he left the field then, I would argue that at that point in time he didn't have another champion so if he had stayed he would have been drawn in. But if later he chooses another champion that would change.

@TheWarriorPoet thanks, I do remember something about that but didn’t remember exactly what was said. So you might be right that Odium could remove the effects, at least Dalinar thinks he can. @Greywatch I like what you said about Adolin teetering on the edge of something. I think that’s a good way of putting it because it implies it could go either way which is the sense I get as well.

@TheWarriorPoet not to put too much on you if you don't have it handy but do you know of a quote that suggests Odium can remove the effects of Cultivation (or another Shard)? I'm not sure what you mean by he tried with Dalinar so maybe I'm missing something.

@insert_anagram_here whoops, I better stop being the Adolin to your Shallan and enabling your madness . Now what I am going to do with all of this tin foil? Seriously though, I think you are at least right about Shallan being the definition of an unreliable narrator and there are a lot of unanswered questions about her childhood. At least there is good reason to doubt that the light she sees is Pattern.

Not surprised the idea of Adolin as OC brings up a lot of strong opinions! Let me preface my post with saying that I don't necessarily want Adolin to become OC and I am in no way convinced that he will be but I don't think the possibility has been ruled out by what we have seen so far. I like Adolin and as he is now I think he is a goodhearted character. The stuff about sign of nine is just an interesting bit of foreshadowing but obviously in no way proves anything by itself and could be pointing to something else entirely. But I don't believe BS just included it as a random, meaningless detail. From what we have seen in OB, yes, one can't be forced into being OC. On the other hand, Dalinar had to resist very hard once he was chosen, it wasn't as simple as just saying no. I would imagine most other characters who were good by nature and not already inclined to fight for Odium would have a similar struggle and maybe another wouldn't have the strength that Dalinar did in that moment. I think what you said about someone who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own feelings and actions being the type to succumb is likely. Odium showed us that a tool he uses is to take someone's pain from them and there are probably a lot of well intentioned characters who might give in to that given the right motivation. Reading that chapter in OB, I definitely thought it was possible that Dalinar might give in and become OC at that point. Dalinar as we now know has some heinous things in his past, far more than Adolin as far as we know (murdering Sadeas really can't compare) but at this point he is still a character with the best of intentions and far stronger than most I would guess. That tells me that it is possible for someone we don't expect, someone who would not go out of their way to serve Odium to still end up as OC. Now Adolin at this exact moment in the story probably doesn't have nearly enough reason to give in to Odium, but that could still change. To me there are some hints in the story that his marriage to Shallan may be doomed for disaster and that he hasn't really dealt with Sadeas' murder, etc. which suggest that he may unfortunately have a lot of pain in his future. I personally expect that reading a lot of pain for Adolin would be devastating (if my unexpected grief at Elhokar's death is any indication BS knows how to catch me off guard and make me cry even for a character I didn't care about that much). Reading Adolin go dark would also be devastating. In a lot of ways I hope the pain I expect for Adolin is what helps him revive Maya and become an Edgedancer, I'm sure I would enjoy reading that more, but it may be instead what causes him to go dark. Or maybe both could occur, one doesn't rule out the other. On some some separate notes: I did think of Taravangian but I can also think of a lot of arguments against him, probably the biggest of which is that he is still strongly affected by Cultivation (Dalinar was too but what she did to him seems to have passed and had its effect now) and that could be a complicating factor. Odium might want to use him in any way he can but the effects Cultivation had on him would probably have to be undone somehow in order for him to be effective as OC. But I probably should have included him in my random list at the beginning. By the way, there are definitely people I threw into that list that I don't personally think at all likely to be OC (like Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan), I just tried to include most of the major characters as a starting place.

I can’t speak for @Ailvara but my point is that from a storytelling perspective there hasn’t really been any consequences of Adolin killing Sadeas. Someone pointed out in another thread that if some random soldier had killed Sadeas in the same way it wouldn’t have changed the storyline up to now at all. Basically we got a big cliffhanger with the murder at the end of WoR and then Adolin spent most of OB not thinking about it. By the time he confessed to Shallan he’d convinced himself he did the right thing and it doesn’t seem to change their relationship. Even Dalinar’s reaction doesn’t seem that strong. So from my perspective this all seems to downplay something that should be a bigger deal (or else why do it at all) so it would be weak writing if things ended there, which leads me to think it may not end there.

I agree with what you said about foreshadowing. Being born under the sign of nine in particular is weirdly specific and hard to imagine that doesn't have something to do with Odium. I also am hoping that the lack of apparent response to Sadeas' murder either externally or emotionally means that we have yet to see the real fallout from it for Adolin. Very good point. My only quibble with this idea, going back to the passage I originally quoted, is that the foreshadowing for actually getting a champion is still there, but still a very plausible possibility. Well, you may have me convinced that this actually makes the most sense. The only part that doesn't seem likely to me is that Dalinar is recognizing the Thrill in the eyes of another (unknown) champion and this is what haunts him. But if he is the only OC we will get and he is just seeing himself, I would believe that would terrify him and it certainly seems possible from the scene with Taravangian that Odium may not be able to choose another. My question would be why though? It seems somewhat imbalanced that once Odium agrees to a contest of champions if his chosen one refuses, he never gets another and I would wonder how that is. Still, great argument! Also, I agree with everyone saying Moash seems like the obvious choice, but that I don't want him to have a role of such importance. Plus, going back to my original point, I don't believe Moash could be the figure Dalinar sees in the vision because I don't think he would recognize or be haunted by him in that way.

Hoping to have some fun speculating and theorizing here. My apologies if there has been a similar thread. I scanned through the OB forum for any topics since the book came out but didn't see any, hopefully I didn't miss it. I don't actually have a strong theory on this yet myself. I just started a re-read and it will probably take me some time, but I was interested if people have opinions and wanted to make a case for it. There is probably a ton of evidence to help us come up with theories but for now I just wanted to throw one out there. There was a very interesting passage in the first chapter when Dalinar is in a vision that I will quote below and I think this is an important clue. Later when reflecting on the vision, Dalinar thinks again that he is haunted by the eyes, that he feared the figure with the red eyes, Odium's champion, the most. One possible suggestion is that this passage was there to hint at the idea that Dalinar himself may become Odium's champion and to give us more pause when it looked like that would happen at the end of OB. If so, maybe this was simply a red herring, but I doubt it, Dalinar did see something familiar just probably not himself. Personally, I think it unlikely now that Dalinar will be OC (abbreviating now) but would welcome anyone who thinks otherwise and wants to make a case for it. So if we assume OC will be someone Dalinar knows enough to haunt him what are some other possibilities? Side note, Dalinar assumes the figure he sees is male, not sure that is enough to rule out a female OC. Just to throw out a few others: Moash Venli Szeth Renarin Adolin Jasnah Kaladin Shallan Personally, I think Moash and Venli are not familiar enough to Dalinar for him to have this reaction to one of them. The others probably are. Of these I think Dalinar would be most haunted by one of his sons and so my gut leads me in the direction of Renarin or Adolin. I think Adolin would be more interesting of the two and I have seen other suggestions and theories about Adolin going dark, so if I still like the idea after a re-read I might try to put together the evidence for that theory. For now, I would be interested in anyone's theories on this, whether it's a name I threw out there or someone else entirely. Also any other keys bits of foreshadowing in OB would be welcome.

On the one year time skip, I feel pretty confident that it won't be as bad as your fear @Humming and Brandon won't be using it to resolve conflicts off screen, I believe he is a better writer than that. I like @DimChatz's idea about it being a good reason for why Shadolin are not in a lovey honeymoon phase when we return. All excellent points which makes me realize I was not thinking about this nearly carefully enough. Some of these I haven't read (I've read all of Mistborn era 1 but only Allow of Law in Mistborn era 2 - I need to finish that one and also get to Warbreaker) but in particular I was forgetting about one of these (see below) which as you pointed out is a great example. It seems such a waste to have Kaladin just be a very brief conflict for Shadolin (and barely that) which is one of my issues with how this was written if it really does end there. Merry Christmas for those who celebrate!

@Humming thanks! I’ve also seen elsewhere people talking about Adolin breaking over finding out the truth about his mother, but I have my doubts that it is going to go that way. The one year time gap seems to make that less likely if we assume Dalinar’s Oathbringer will be released in that time and that’s the way Adolin will find the truth. I hope Adolin and Renarin will have some strong reaction to that which we get to see but I hope whatever breaks Adolin enough for a bond (if that really does happen) will be something that doesn’t mostly happen off screen. Since Adolin has been established as one of very few non broken characters I think we really need to see it happen to believe it and it could be interesting if it goes that route. Seems quite plausible that things falling apart with Shallan could be part of that, especially if he was already starting to break from learning the truth about Evi’s death.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I really like your theory. It makes me wonder if Cultivation is aware of this weakness since she was involved in creating the dichotomy of intelligence and compassion in T. If so are shards generally aware of the weakness of other shards? And then what about Honor? Don't recall him mentioning that in his visions to Dalinar but maybe that would have revealed too much to Odium.

Thank you @DimChatz! I did read through the whole thread though like I said I did skim some parts. It was kind of like therapy and you guys were giving me so many good things to think about. Plus once I got really deep into it I just had to keep going! I did also read @Ailvara's document, it was awesome! Also was very impressed with @Dreamstorm's analysis of Adolin's POVs. @insert_anagram_here ooh, very interesting theory! Curious whether you think Shallan previously breaking her bond with Pattern is separate from this then. @Bookblessed I'm definitely sympathetic to how you feel, but like others have said my feeling on the ending has changed after reading this thread. I'm very interested to see what my gut feeling is after doing a re-read with this in mind. I'll have to decide whether to try to keep my hopes in check going into Book 4. @SLNC really good point about this being especially over the top shmoopy for BS. Might help explain why my reaction was so strong and blech!

I'm very late to be joining this thread (just consider me a stowaway on SS Shalladin) but I was only able to finish OB a week ago. As much as I enjoyed it I found myself so disappointed with the way this arc played out that I immediately went looking for other reactions to it and found myself here. Yes, I did go through all 65 pages (I skimmed some to be fair) and it took me a week, so I figured I should sign up and chime in for what it is worth after all of that. I absolutely appreciate the depth of discussion here and it has definitely changed my thinking and inspired me to start a careful re-read sooner (I probably would have put it off due to the let down otherwise). I have so many thoughts on this and there's so much to respond to that I won't even try to respond to specific posts but just try to touch on the major themes of this discussion and maybe raise a few new small points if I can. First, like many here I came out of WoR feeling that Shalladin had a lot more potential for depth and an interesting dynamic than Shadolin. The chasm sequence in particular won me over. On the other hand there seemed to be a fairly good set up for what could be a more balanced triangle, a legitimate case to be made for both pairings, and no bad guy involved. I was fully prepared for this issue not to be resolved in OB and nothing I read throughout led me to think it was at all likely, right up to the end. I had been slightly frustrated that several opportunities for Kaladin and Shallan to interact meaningfully after the chasms were brushed past, but mostly I spent the entire book extremely worried about Shallan (it was a toss up whether she or Dalinar gave me more anxiety this book). So when the resolution came it was like getting whiplash and I was left with the impression that BS suddenly decided he'd made a mistake with this triangle and needed to end it ASAP. Not only that but it seemed he was trying to tie it up in the neatest bow possible by having Kaladin deny any feelings (which lowers the stakes for everyone and just felt cheap). It made me really doubt his ability to write a complex love story, but fortunately now I am second guessing that initial impression. Is this really the end of Kaladin's part in Shallan's romantic arc: This is hard for me to answer still. It think it really comes down to how much trust we have in Brandon to write a difficult romantic storyline. His other works (and I haven't read them all) tend to go for more straightforward romantic narratives and he definitely favors pairings similar to Shallan and Adolin. But several of the WoB quotes many of you pointed out are encouraging: the braided roses (obviously I liked that one) and especially the way he talks about foreshadowing and "breaking promises" to the reader (I wish I had the exact quote on that one). The foreshadowing is clearly there for Shalladin and so far I just can't see how we've been given something even better that would justify breaking that promise. In text I think the two big things that make me doubt he really meant this to be the happy resolution it appears to be for some are her interactions with Wit and Pattern throughout OB, more on those below. How could/should this be resolved: Best case scenario for me I think is we start by exploring the fact that Shallan's bond to Pattern is in trouble and she is near to killing him again. I think most powerful would be her recognizing that her creation of personaShallon as the perfect wife to Adolin and that alt's dominance over the others is a lie that directly threatens her oaths. Basically it would be a trigger that forces her to finally reintegrate her self but this also causes a revelation that her rush to marry Adolin was not a decision made by trueShallan and in fact, Adolin does not actually know her (as others have said, not his fault but hers). Personally I think if her vows to Adolin were not made by her integrated self they are not really valid. If Shadolin really are end game I suppose their relationship could be repaired from there, but I think more fitting would be for it to cause a split. I would rather not see Adolin's death come first, if he is going to die, I really want it to happen after Shallan's reintegration and some sort of clarity about their relationship. It think it would actually be interesting to see BS tackle something that is probably way out of his comfort zone, in this case a divorce, or more appropriately an annulment. I do think Brandon is a self aware writer and so best case scenario he is deliberately trying to push himself to grow in writing more complex romantic stories (my only worry is that he might think he already did that by subverting expectations/foreshadowing with Shalladin not playing out as expected). On Shallan's mental illness: I appreciate the info people have shared about OSDD and I think it extremely likely that BS did do his research on the real world parallel. The way he seems to be handling characters with depression and addiction speaks well of how he would handle a character with OSDD and the interactions with Wit adds even more evidence for this as Wit seems to offer her appropriate guidance on only being one person. Shallan just clearly isn't ready to accept that. This gives me hope that we aren't really supposed to accept Shallan being dependent on any other person for her mental stability in the long run. If we are supposed to believe that her marriage to Adolin is at this point a positive thing, we would have to accept that her requiring his presence to not "fade" is also a good thing, and that is beyond distasteful to me. This also makes me look at her decision to marry as, in part, an overreaction to Veil and Radiant finally agreeing on Kaladin. It would seem she is not ready to face any feelings she may have for Kaladin and that has partially fueled her disintegration and created some of the desperation that comes in response to Adolin's offer to step aside. Adolin's characterization and where he goes from here: Adolin is tough for me to really pin down. I like him, but as a viewpoint character he is very externally focused and does very little self reflection. The analysis of his thoughts about Shallan vs Kaladin was fascinating. I suspect there really isn't much textual support for this, but my gut sense is that Adolin is settled on Shallan not out of a strong love for her but because he sees her as exceptional. What I mean by this is we have a character who was set up as having a long series of short, not very meaningful, failed interactions with women and Adolin does seem to have some concern about his abilities to be successful with relationships. My hunch is that a logical thing someone in this situation might tell themselves is that the problem would be solved if he finally meets a woman who was really different from all the others and could really capture and hold his interest. Shallan is different from the typical Alethi woman and a KR, she is exceptional in every way to Adolin and so I suspect that might be why he determines her to be the one. But he obviously has doubts about it or he wouldn't have offered to step aside and his lack of thought about her in his viewpoints as well as the discrepancies between what he thinks and says do make me doubt he is deeply in love. I think none of the three are at this point but I do see more potential for something deep between Shalladin. I think I am more in favor of Adolin reviving Maya and potentially becoming an ED than most people here, but I think it order for that to happen Adolin likely needs to be far more broken than he is now (perhaps the revelation about the "Shallan" he married vs trueShallan could be part of that). But you've all given me some things to think about in regards to him potentially going dark and there could be something to that. What happens during the break between books/Potential parenthood: I'm really afraid that the one year gap might be to have a baby without seeing the pregnancy but Storms I hope not! I'm not opposed to there being a place for real world issues like parenting in epic fantasy and I'm in favor of female characters exploring multiple roles but can we please not pile more on top of Shallan at this point? A small OT point to add to this discussion, but many here commented on making a baby not being much of an accomplishment on its own but I will just say as someone who personally went through issues with infertility before finally having my son, for some of us that part feels like an accomplishment too. Probably time to wrap up this wall of text so I will just add a couple other small thoughts I had. Does anyone else wonder if Shallan may have an alt she doesn't talk to who has been learning soulcasting? Only a few small hints towards that if I can recall but I am curious to look for that on re-read (among many, many other things now). Lastly, I haven't read all of BS's books, though I have read several others outside of SA and I can't think of any examples of relationships that really fit the braided roses theme he talked about. Is there one that comes to mind for anyone else? Thanks to anyone who bothered to read all of this at this point in the thread!