SomeRandomPeasant

Really? I think it is a shame that people can't criticize Shallan as a character without being labeled as intolerant. I may not agree with people who dislike Shallan, but they are certainly allowed to have a negative opinion about the character. When has anyone actually shamed Shallan for having dissociative identity disorder?

Alot of readers are saying that Shallan's case of dissociative identity disorder is either a really great portrayal or a really weak portrayal. Is Shallan a realistic representation of DID because I have no idea. I am curious if readers have actually studied this disorder or if you simply assume that DID was represented properly/improperly. I genuinely want to know. For instance, is it realistic for patients suffering from DID to have full conversations with their various personalities? The only time Shallan was cringe was when talked down to Mraize after she didn't kill Kalek. If I had one complaint about this series, it is that the villains keep losing, while the heroes keep winning. The only time Team Radiant lost was when Alethcar fell. The only people who die are villains and people who are connected with Kaladin. And now Shallan has not only foiled Mraizes plans once again, but now she mocks him openly. How are we supposed to take the Ghostbloods seriously when they were bamboozled so easily?

Adolin may be a good person, but a character needs to be more than "good" to be a good character. @Bliev I think the reason we disagree is because I don’t see minor blemishes as genuine character flaws. Even Mary Sues have some minor imperfections that are described as “flaws”. I wouldn’t call Adolin a full blown Mary Sue, but I do think that Adolin is a weak character. Yes, Adolin is insecure about the expectations placed on him by his friends and family. Yes, Adolin isn’t actually perfect. But who among us isn’t like that? Just because a character is realistic doesn’t make them a good character. Change is not the same thing is growth. This change wasn’t a result of Adolin incrementally changing his behavior through effort. Adolin met his betrothed and immediately transitioned into a completely dependable husband without issue. If Kaladin’s hatred of light-eyes was changed overnight I wouldn’t call that growth, I would call that a completely random change that came out of nowhere. If a character solves their issues without any apparent effort, that isn’t an example of character growth. Just because a character could exist in the real world, doesn’t mean that character would make a compelling story. There is a reason most of The Rythem of War doesn’t revolve around a farmer of Hearthstone who is dependable and is always devoted to his family. This type of person certainly exists in real life, just like people like Adolin exist in real life. The point is that chronicling the journey of these people would not make a very compelling story. Which is why I said I would like Adolin more if he didn’t occupy such a major part of the story.

I would like Adolin a lot more if he wasn’t given main character status. After all, Lopen isn't a terribly deep character. Sanderson has stated that Lopen doesn’t really have any major flaws. And yet Lopen is one of my favorite minor characters because he isn’t a major focus of the series. Not everyone needs to have soul crushing backgrounds. But following the journey of someone whose biggest flaw is that “sometimes he feels that his father is smothering him” is really exhausting to read. I would be thrilled if Adolin’s future arc will involve him degenerating as a character. Unfortunately, for the past four books he has remained the poster child for the “dashing knight in shining armor” trope that Sanderson said he wanted to subvert. His murder of Sadeas is swept under the rug, and is presented as justified (after all it was Sadeas). Even though he was initially portrayed in Way of Kings as a man who eventually neglected his various girlfriends, Adolin is now the perfect husband to Shallan. So how can Adolin grow as a character? He is already practically flawless. Learning to cope with the expectations of his father is not enough of a reason to give Adolin so much screen time.

I can understand why people hate Lirin, just like I understand why people hate Shallan, even if I don’t agree with them. Characters that we read about, are often pretty unlikable if we met them in real life. However, I think the important thing is that good characters can still be pretty unlikable people while still being well written characters. I have immense appreciation for the Kaladin and Lirin relationship, even if it seems that not many people do. You are right that Lirin is pretty inconsiderate on a personal level. He is completely convinced that what he is doing is right. But even though he isn’t “nice” per se, he is trying to do the best he can. Just like Kaladin. Father and son are not bad people. They have different approaches when it comes to helping others, and both approaches are worth exploring. They are both pretty ornery true, but they are also both moral and empathetic. I really like that both of them arn’t presented as objectively correct in their opinions. I know Sanderson likes to write about relationships in which both characters aren't exactly wrong, but they aren't exactly right eiter. Characters that are heavily flawed may not be as overtly likable as an overly perfect hero protagonist, but character flaws give characters depth. Characters like Sand dan Glokta(First Law), Lord Vetinari (Discworld), Walter White(Breaking Bad), and Hans Landa(Inglorious Bastards), are all really nasty people (Although I still LOVE Sand dan Glokta and Lord Vetinari) but they are strong characters because of thier flaws. You don’t have to like a character to appreciate their character arc. I can understand you despising Lirin, but I still think he is a well written character.

I think it is very clear that Kaladin is heavily discriminatory against light eyes. He admits it repeatedly in Words of Radiance. His hatred is certainly justified, but he still has an unreasonable burning rage against most light eyes as of Words of Radiance. He views every single light eye as an oppressor. While this certainly applies to some light-eyes, a general categorization of someone based on eye color is, by definition, discriminatory. Kaladin says that the reason he was willing to guard a light-eyes was because he was actually trying to protect Bridge Four. His main goal in Words of Radiance was ultimately to train Bridge Four into an elite dark-eyed mercenary company. But just because he protected light-eyes doesn’t mean he doesn’t hate their guts, as his Third Oath shows quite clearly. I can understand if you object to the term “racist” because it doesn’t really apply to this situation, but I use it because English does not have a word for “discriminatory against eye color”. I don’t know why conversations about Shallan eventually come to this. It doesn’t matter who suffered “more”. I would actually agree that Kaladin has suffered “more” even if his type of suffering is different. But Shallan has still suffered egregiously, and she can still have a well-written character arc even if she has never been on a bridge run, or lived as a slave. After all, the trauma that Dalinar has suffered has been the direct result of his own actions. Yet I would still say his arc is incredibly well written. What I am about to say has already been said already but I think it bears repeating. Everybody will gravitate towards different characters and that is perfectly okay. But that doesn’t mean character arcs involving characters that I don’t like are automatically poorly written. I can understand why people can view Shallan as somewhat of a drag alongside Kaladin. Kaladin’s arc is incredibly well written. The “Bridge Run” arc is simply inspiring, and I think it is among one the most powerful Cosmere arcs Sanderson has ever written. But just because many people don’t like Shallan as much as Kaladin doesn’t mean she is a poor character.

I feel like this is missing the big chunk of Shallan’s arc in Words of Radiance. She is naturally timid, but she develops another personality “Veil” which has the confidence to undertake the tasks that are set out before her. She doesn’t really become a James Bond character with a high level of skill and experience. Veil just becomes more confident. Shallan/Veil uses uses Radiant powers to give herself a huge edge, and she is cunning enough to outmaneuver certain situations. But for the most part, she blunders through everything in Words of Radiance. In Oathbringer, her repeated failures drive home the fact that she isn’t actually as skilled as she thinks she is. She is no Mraize, Jasnah, or Taravangian who actually have real-world experience. The personalities she has been relying on aren't enough to slap together a solution every time. Oathbringer reveals that even though she means well, she is incredibly naive and has grown complacent. I thought the critics who call Shallan overly perfect would rejoice at the fact that Shallan fails so often in Oathbringer because it shows that Shallan is way over her head when it comes to the real world.

Although I personally like Shallan as a character, I get where people are coming from when they say they don't like her. However, I think there a plenty of reasons why she is kind of cool as a character. A lot of people don't like how Shallan seems to be overly perfect because she never fails at anything. Her flaws aren’t really dwelled upon, which makes her seem like a weaker character. After all, flaws are a good thing in a character not a bad. But I would argue that her flaws are there, just not overtly made clear as they are with, say, Kaladin. For example: Whereas Kaladin dwells on the past so much that it molds his every action, Shallan is completely in denial about most of her past. She refuses to confront it, so she doesn’t learn from her mistakes. So a lot of her arc is about fully confronting her past and becoming self-aware enough to become a Lightweaver. This makes it seem like she is deteriorating as a character instead of growing. But I would argue that she was never very stable to begin with and her so-called de-evolution is the result of facing her past. It may seem like she is perfect and Shallan certainly likes to put up that front. But in reality, she is an utter mess who is only now starting to become self-aware. Just like Kaladin has a somewhat racist view of light eyes, Shallan has a somewhat warped view of dark eyes. Shallan may not be overtly cruel to a darkeyed person, but she repeatadly looks down on them. She repeatedly thinks that light eyes are simply better at ruling and believes that it benefits everyone if those with eye color step in to help others (ahem White Man's Burden). Alot of the time, she kind of assumes that she will get her way by to virtue of being lightened. I'll be honest, when Shallan took the boots off some random dark-eyed captain simply because she knew she could get away with it, I was enraged. But this attitude is a flaw that Shallan can work to overcome, just like how Kaladin can overcome his hatred of lighteyes. I list these flaws to show that the depths of Shallan's character and to show that even though she seems overly perfect, this is more or less an act that she puts on. Shallan has been written as the inverse of Kaladin and the opposite trajectories of their character arcs showcase different paths towards personal growth. It would be annoying if a main character is repeatedly shown to be perfect and never fail. But Shallan is flawed and that makes her more interesting I think.

Nobody was accusing you of being a "slavery apologist" and I find it troubling that you dismiss all the arguments against you as if people are trying to personally insult you. People are allowed to have different opinions and I remind you, once again, that this is how civil discussions tend to play out. The thing people disagreed with you on was how you called Jasnah's initial proclamation of abolition unrealistic. People also disagreed with how you were freaking out over a plot point that readers have yet to see how it will play out in the story. This would be like if someone read the book A Dance with Dragons in which: minor spoilers for that book below I think you would agree that the above plot arc has everything you are seeking in a story were slaves are set free. There are extreme consequences, even if the decision was made with the best of intentions. So it would be foolish if a reader were to read the chapter in A Dance with Dragons (where our hero initially does her thing in Astapor) and they went on to say "ohmygosh, this plot point is ridiculous, I can't believe someone would try to get rid of slavery in a preindustrial world". I would say that this is a premature, over the top reaction. NOBODY is saying that there shouldn't be consequences to Jasnah releasing the slaves of Alethcar. But doesn't mean that the plot development where Jasnah attempts to get rid of slavery is absurd.

I admit that my English isn't the best but I don't understand what you are implying here. I don't know where you are getting the idea that I am saying that Jasnah is "getting away with it" as if she is making these changes for selfish reasons. I am curious why you would argue that it is realistic for Vorin society accept these reforms without any backlash Why do you think so?

@Greywatch I don't think @SpeakoftheDeval was arguing that Jasnah couldn't get things done in the short term. She probably could, just like how many autocrats have done so in the past. Emperor Marcus Aurelius, Alexander the Great, Emperor Qi Shi Huang and so on made incredibly dramatic changes over the course of their rulerships. The problem was, their changes didn't really last. I think it is fair to say that if changes are going to be made, there do need to be dramatic consequences to making steep changes in Alethi society. Even if you think the changes are good, Sanderson does need to show that changes can't happen overnight.

If I had to guess, these weird designs actually indicate that Urithiru was "alive" when the Sibling was active. We know Syl remembers Urithiru being full of lights back in the day. In Navani's last chapter, she says that the tower can brace itself for a coming Highstorm. I think that this means that the Sibling used to be able to mold its internal structure to fit the needs of the Radiants. "Dead-end" hallways could be opened by the Sibling, and rooms could be expanded or shrunk depending on the circumstances. The current unchanging state of Urithiru is in is simply the result of the tower freezing up now that the Sibling is absent. Urithiru is like an old rusty car that hasn't burned gas in years. Urithiru is a corpse instead of an engine.

@kaellok There is no need to feel bad about being pedantic! I find your points perfectly reasonable and well spoken. It is true that we simply don't know a lot about the Unmade and the Rosharin timeline. You are also right in saying that I am making a lot of educated guesses. I just wanted to put this theory on paper because I don't want to pass up the opportunity of feeling smug if this turns out to be true. Of course, as you have rightly pointed out, there are plenty of reasons why that might not be the case.

Don't make Talenel, Stonesinew, Herald of War go back to Braize. That man has done enough.

I do not think that we know this at all. If we do, please provide the supporting evidence. Additionally, I have not seen anywhere that the Unmade predate humans on Roshar. I was theorizing that the Sibling can't predate the arrival of the Knights Radiant because the Knights Radiant built Urithiru as their headquarters. I suppose it is possible that the Sibling existed before Urithiru. But that would be like saying the god-spren of highstorms existed before the advent of highstorms. We don't know much about the Sibling, but I was making an educated guess in regards to the Sibling's origins. We know from Syl that Parshendi were not allowed to become Knights Radiant, at least back then. So the Sibling must have been manifested by humans. I was suggesting that since the Sibling was probably recently manifested by humans, then it also must be possible for Parshendi to manifest god-spren of their own, especially given the fact that they have lived on Roshar far longer. I probably should have made my argument more clear. In regards to your second point, we know from Hessi's Mythica that the Unmade predate human civilization. Again, we don't know for certain if this is correct. However, based on the current events in the story, I would say that Hessi has been vindicated for the most part. I tracked down the quote for you. I know it might be tempting to argue that Mythica only states that the Unmade only predate human civilization. So maybe the Unmade existed when the human's lived as tribespeople in some sort of hunter-gatherer society. But we know that humanity was never in this state on Roshar. They were a people of refugees who had their own society on Ashyn. They had to be taught how to adapt to Roshar's climate by the Parshendi but they never lacked a civilization on Roshar. Perhaps Hessi didn't know this fact, but it would be odd if Sanderson revealed this bit of information out of nowhere only to later reveal that this claim is incorrect. Therefore, I think it is fair to say that the Unmade were manifested by Parshendi, not humans since humans weren't on Roshar when they were formed. Based on what KandraAllomancer said, I am probably wrong about the gods Eshoni is referring to. The WOB definitely implicates the Fused. However, I don't think that delegitimizes the whole theory. Unfortunately, only time will tell if I am right.

The Theory: The Unmade were all once Singer god-spren similar to the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather I do not know if this theory has already been proposed, but I think there is plenty of evidence to back this up: Evidence #1: The Unmade Sja-anet says that they were “made then unmade” I hate to state the obvious but we can at least confirm that the unmade were something else before they sided with Odium. I always wondered what “made” them in the first place since Odium was probably the one who unmade them. We know from Syl that the origins of the god-spren were created partly due in part to the human personification of forces and partly due to the investiture of Honor/Cultivaiton. So, just like how the current generation of god-spren were “made”, the Unmade might have been “made” in the Cognitive realm by collective personification of mortal minds. Evidence #2: The Unmade are said to predate humanity on Roshar. This is where I step into the nebulous realm of speculation, but I am envisioning a singer pantheon of gods. For example, Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher was a type of sea god-spren like Poseidon, while Ashertmarn the Heart of Revel was some type of jubilee god-spren like Dionysus. Nergoel the Thrill was a god of competition or war like Nike or Athena. The list goes on. Then, once Odium came to Roshar, he twisted the god-spren to his own purposes in the same manner that he perverts alot of the manifestations of Investiture. We know that the current generation of Bondsmith god-spren were created by humans because the Sibling/Urithiru can’t predate the arrival of the Knights Radiant. It would make sense that for the thousands of years of sentient life on Roshar, there would be more than three god-spren created. It would also make sense that the singers would create their own god-spren. Evidence #3: In the Oathbringer prologue with Eshoni and Gavilar, Eshoni says she doesn't want the gods of the singers to return Who are the singer gods that Eshoni is refering to? She can’t be referring to the Fused because Venli doesn’t call the Fused their gods, she calls them their ancestors. Eshoni could be referring to Cultivation, Honor, and Odium who have been worshiped by singers in the past. But it would be odd to fear the return of the god(S)(plural) because we know Honor is dead, Cultivation never left, and Odium is one god. ** To play devil’s advocate with my own theory, this wouldn’t explain why there are nine Unmade and nine orders of Passions. That is a weird coincidence. But it doesn’t seem like the Passions and the Unmade are linked, just like how the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher don’t directly correlate with an order of the knights radiant. Maybe Odium just likes the number nine.

I don't think the original poster was arguing that Odium's Investiture is solely concerned with swearing oaths. They were simply theorizing about the link between the Passions and the Oaths. This isn't Ruin(Hemalurgy) versus Preservation(Allomancy) where both shards had distinctly unique systems of Investiture. The Passions are too similar to the Oaths, right down to the precise type of surges that are being used. It would be far too much of a coincidence if there was no connection between the Passions and the Oaths If I had to guess, Odium's Investiture has to do with corrupting other manifestations of Investiture.

I find it odd that once again some fans have such a negative reaction to plot points that they have yet to see how they play out in the story. Jasnah isn’t snapping her fingers and “poof” slavery is gone. The Stormlight Archive is a TEN book long series. This is just the beginning. You are oversimplifying this chapter. Jasnah is essentially doing what Abraham Lincoln was trying to accomplish with his Emancipation Proclamation amidst the American Civil War. Even though he himself wasn’t a true abolitionist, he saw an opportunity to make a dramatic change so he acted. He didn’t get rid of slavery overnight, he simply got the ball rolling. Yes, there need to be consequences to such a dramatic amount of social and economic upheaval. It would be equally absurd If the idea of light-eyed superiority was overturned overnight with no downsides. But there is absolutely no indication that an instant, utopian resolution will happen in The Stormlight Archive. It certainly hasn't happened in any other of Sanderson's works. The fact that characters are attempting to make changes in the world they live in is not unrealistic. It is certainly not a "cloying morality play" if a small selection of characters push to get rid of slavery. Even in the United States during the nineteenth century, there existed a small number of true abolitionists. They were certainly in the extreme minority, but they still existed. The fact that people exist on Roshar who want to get of slavery is inevitable, not implausible. By the way, let’s just calm down, shall we? Everyone here is just trying to have a discussion about a series of fiction novels. If you feel someone has missed your point, it is not the end of the world. I have felt that you have missed the points of my arguments in the past, but misunderstanding is sometimes the price we pay for discussion.

I hate to say it but it seems like Adolin is being set up to be killed off, similar to the way Elothkar was killed off. Elothkar had an arc that seemed to be progressing, similar to the Adolin/Maya arc. It was repeatedly foreshadowed that he was going to swear oaths as a Lightweaver, as well as grow into his role as the king of Alethkar. Then when he was literally beginning to swear the words, and it seemed that he was growing into the king that could save his kingdom, his arc was brought to an abrupt end. Something similar could happen to Adolin. His attempts to free Maya might very well be a distraction. Everybody knows that in this series about a world-ending apocalypse, there has been a noticeable lack of dead protagonists. A lot of villains have been killed off with no heroes to balance the scales. Adolin’s death would have a major impact on the growth of Kaladin, Shallan, and Renarin who have all used him as a source of stability. I am not sure if the Maya will or will not be revived, but if the rationale for her being revived is that it simply completes “Adolin’s arc” then you could make that argument for any theory. As stated above, you could have made the argument before Oathbringer that Elothkar’s arc hasn’t been completed so therefore he can’t die. That would have been wrong. I hope we never get to a point where the story becomes so predictable that we know characters can’t die because their arc still has loose ends. The Sibling is not a deadeye, a distinction that is hugely important. We do not know the details behind the Sibling, but we do know that it disappeared long before the Knights Radiant abanded thier oaths. We have no idea if Adolin’s knowledge of spren revival will be relevant to the Sibling considering we have barely any information on the Sibling itself.

I think that comment says it all, and I think it higlights the biggest reason we seem to be disagreeing. Nobody is saying that Roshar will become a "happy multicultural multiracial one-world nation" over the course of this series. What we are dealing with right now is extremely small scale. Having Rlain become a Windrunner or having Kaladin/Rlain/Leshwi learn to respect each other is a realistic approach to breaking down past prejudices. It is far from preachy if Sanderson writes some relationships between singer and human as more dimensional than "human’s bad, singers good" or vise versa. It would be annoying if this story ended with all the main characters defeating Odium with the power of friendship, but the Stormlight Archive is far from that point. There are a lot of reasons given in this story's universe why two sides would want to seek reconciliation that doesn't involve modern-day politics. Mainly, the two sides might want to stop killing each other. It is not message fiction to have characters seek alternative solutions to a several millennia-long conflict. Sanderson has presented a world where rifts between groups of people are everywhere. It makes sense if the characters seek to overcome such obstacles without resorting to the sword. I wonder if you also think that it is message fiction when, in Oathbringer, Dalinar chose to bring nations together through diplomacy rather than by attempting to conquer half of the world. If seeking peace makes sense in-universe, then the story is not automatically delegitimized if the characters don't resort to simply killing each other.

Rlain is becoming Windrunner isn’t due to him being in Bridge Four. Rlain wants to become a Windrunner. When Kaladin first tells Rlain that he found an honorspren Rlain could bond with, Rlain was genuinely excited. Of course, this doesn’t mean that he will automatically become one. But joining a particular Knights Radiant order is based on the ideals a person strives towards rather than being based on a person's lot in life or their natural personality traits.

Of course the idea of racial inequality is not really present in the series now, but I think it is obvious that the series is heading in a direction where the prejudices of both human and listener society are being broken down. You might think such a concept is unrealistic, but many characters in the series are at least trying to question old prejudices. This series is running the risk of oversimplifying these problems, but they are being challenged. I am utterly confused with this point. It is clearly important that both races at least attempt to work together instead of outright annihilating each other. Both humans and singers believe that this war will lead to the extinction of the loser. In order to put an end to this genocide, it is not out of the question for both sides to reach some kind of shaky peace at the end of the series. Peace might not be possible, and it would be naive to think that peace will solve everything, but it is better than outright destroying one another. As I said, coming together is not progress for the sake of progress. It is an important first step in creating a peaceful end to this conflict. This series is about two sides learning to coexist with each other rather than learning to destroy each other.

I actually think that Rlain will most definitely become a Windrunner. Having the Willshapers simply become the "Order of Singers" would be antithetical to the idea of inclusion and racial equality. It is imperative that humans and singers work together in a single order to prove that the two races can form one cohesive unit. Rlain would be the first step towards that. Rlain even says that he will wait for a spren due to the "honor he represents", meaning that he wants to embody the idea of honor as well. I think that, at the end of the series, singers and humans will be found in all ten orders.

The Sibling isn't a deadeye. Raboniel even said in this chapter that the Sibling is essentially a deadeye. We know from a chapter preface that the Sibling withdrew long before the Knights Radiant abandoned their oaths. If anything, I think this chapter sets up Navani reawakening the Sibling, becoming the second Bondsmith, and repelling Raboniel's risky assault.

I personally don't think this pairing will happen, but to everyone concerned about years and ages: WOB has stated outright that a year on Roshar is longer than a year on Earth. Brandon has said that even though Kaladin is 19 in Way of Kings, he would be in his mid-twenties on Earth. A year on one planet obviously does not equal the same amount of time as a year spent on another planet. For example, 26 years on Earth is the same amount of time as 14 Mars years. Venli is no more child than Shallan or Adolin.