SomeRandomPeasant

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I think where the confusion is coming in, is the oil changing to stone is constricting not expanding. When the boulder was changed by Jasnah to smoke, it exploded outwards. That is due to the change in density. Taking stone, high density, into smoke, low density. It is why when they soulcast air to stone, Adolin comments on feeling a rush of wind moving towards the soulcasting. Because you need "more" air to equate the density of the stone they used to make a windbreak. Technically when a person is turned into stone or quartz, they should shrink, but for narrative purposes Brandon kept that out because it would look silly to take a corpse and make it into a figurine (not that extreme, but you get the idea). So the stone would constrict someone encased in liquid when turned to stone. They just may not pop like a bubble, but be crushed, or be unable to expand/contract their ribcage to breath. Maybe if I post a bunch of WoB on the subject matter that would explain it better than I would. 

 

Hmmm, for some reason I have been having trouble finding the WoB I know for a fact exist lately. There is a rather long one where someone explains how much force the boulder changing to smoke should be and about changing corpses to stone would result in them shrinking, and Brandon explains he had to pull back a bit on the reaction for that reason, but it is still there. So far I only found this one that alludes to it. 

 

Sorana (paraphrased)

Is Soulcasting volume- or mass-preserving?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's mass-preserving, but there are some strange things going on and that's why we don't get as much explosions as we should. You can see a bit of what is going on when Jasnah Soulcasts air, there are some little reactions, but not as strong as you ought to get.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

If you don't like my idea, fine.  But if it is actually impossible to Jasnah to do anything but kill the footpads than that would be so lame.  Jasnah is the most powerful soulcaster on Roshar and she can't even find a way subdue three men?  If she her only two options were to leave them alone or execute them than that would take away her agency as a character.  

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So just dropping in to explain this aspect. Water is the only known nonmetallic liquid that expands and floats when turned into a solid. Everything else constricts and sinks. 

As to the interaction frustration is referring to is the conservation of density regarding soulcasting. That is why the Boulder soulcast to smoke blasted out with such force. By changing the stone (very dense) to smoke (less dense), she made a whole lot of smoke super compressed in a small area. The environment seeking to reach equilibrium causes the smoke to violently shoot out. Apparently in the real world it would be as violent as TNT but for the sake of magic Brandon made it less violent.

So regarding your idea. By changing the rock to oil, the oil would overflow because there would be so much of it. The assailant might even be shot into the air depending on if Brandon would have it act like a geyser (also depending on how deep and narrow the pit was). 

But assuming that did not happen, and the assailant plopped into the liquid calmly, then changing the oil back to stone would be changing it to something very dense. We have not seen anyone become encased in stone in the manner you are suggesting so it may very well crush them. Think in a way what happens to water freezing in a Crack of cement. It pushes the cement out, widening the Crack. Just in this case, the action would be in the reverse direction.

Would it expand so much that it would kill them? Every time we have seen transformation used on Roshar, there is no violent TNT explosion when rock or flesh is changed into smoke.  When Shallan transformed a solid ship into water, and everyone on board just fell.  They weren't blasted away or get shot into the air like a geyser.

18 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Also, better hope none gets into their pores or skin or nose or mouth, otherwise they are dying a very excruciating death when it gets changed back.

How much oil would get in someones skin in the 10 seconds that they would be submerged in oil.  Skin is made to block liquids like oil.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

As I have said before soulcasting part of an object is harder than soulcasting all of it,

We have seen Jasnah easily transform huge amounts of stone into smoke when Shallan first comes to Kharbranth.  And this was without causing a smokestone gemstone to shatter like it shattered when Jasnah took out the footpads.  Soulcasting stone allys isn't beyond the capabilities of Jasnah.

We have seen Shallan a much, much less experienced Transformer soulcast an entire boat into water.  Yes soul casting parts of an object is harder but this is Jasnah, a highly skilled genius who has been Soulcasting for three years.  She could have Transformed the entire ally into oil if she wanted to.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Additionally your method requires multiple castings, increasing the demand on Stormlight, over simply soulcasting the individuals

As I have said many times the amount of stormlight doesn't matter because Jasnah can bring as much stormlight into the fight that she wants.  She wasn't surprised to see the footpads.  She knew that they would be there, so she could plan accordingly.  Even if transforming inorganic matter uses up more stormlight than transforming organic matter (which I doubt), Jasnah could have simply brought more stormlight if she needed to.

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

And on top of that soulcasting Oil into stone will cause it to constrict, that means if you have your feet in the oil you are losing those feet.

This point confuses me.  Dunking the foopads into oil than transforming the oil into stone would be like dunking a strawberry in chocolate and then freezing the chocolate.  The strawberry remains the same, even if the coating around it changes.  The footpads displaced the oil when they fell in the oil.  So if the oil is transformed back into stone, the stone material wouldn't suddenly get bigger and expand out.  Are you saying that the stone would expand in the same way that water expands when in turns into ice?

On 1/26/2022 at 6:05 AM, Frustration said:

I will again repeat the danger of doing that. the pit has to be at least as deep as they are tall, and it's completly unexcpected, it's like throwing someone asleep into a pit.

Frustration I thought we were past this.  Feel free to argue that Jasnah was right to kill those the footpads, but we readers shouldn't pretend that Jasnah was incapable of non-fatally subduing them.  To do so would be severely underestimated Jasnah's abilities.  Like I said many times, soul casting someone into smoke costs more stormlight than casting inorganic material into into one of the ten essences.

Jasnah could easily turn the stone from under the footpads into oil, than turn that oil into stone.  This is a simple, easy plan that a genius like Jasnah is certainly capable of coming up with, especially since she had time to make up a plan before hand.  Oil and stone are inorganic material and therefore cost less stormlight than turning the footpads into smoke/ burning a footpad.  You keep saying that Jasnah doesn't have enough stormlight to do this, but turning organic material (like the flesh of the footpads) into smoke costs more stormlight than transforming inorganic materal.  Jasnah also knew that there would be footpads in that ally, which means she could have brought as much stormlight as she needed to carry out whatever plan she wanted.  If she needed more stormlight to non fatally subdue the footpads, she could have brought some more. 

However, Jasnah choose to kill rather than subdue, because Jasnah wanted to kill those footpads (rightly or wrongly).  Jasnah didn't kill those footpads because she had no other choice, she killed them because she thought it was right to do so.

@Frustration I think there seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding here.  Nobody is saying that Lin is some anti-hero with a heart of gold.  We all agree that, by the end of his life, Lin was very much a bad guy.  The reason a lot of us slightly sympathize with Lin is the fact that he wasn't always bad.  As @Bort has been saying, he made at least one noble decision early in Shallan's life.  When Lin saw Shallan kill her mother and the other guy, he choose to take credit for the murder.  While Lin intended to protect his daughter, his decision backfired.  Everyone, his sons included, hated him for "murdering" his wife, despite the fact that Lin did nothing wrong.  Can you at least sympathize with Lin at this point in his life?

What came next was Lin's fault.  He allowed his shame, rage, and the hatred of others to mold him into a monster.  He abused his sons and killed his second wife.  Nobody is letting him off the hook for that.  We all know that he is responsible for his actions later in life.  But that doesn't mean we can't mourn the loss of what Lin used to be. 

If Kaladin chose to kill King Elhokar, and then he joined Moash in light eye killing spree, I would say that Kaladin has become a villain.  But I would still sympathize with Kaladin due to the sad events that led Kaladin to that point.  I would still feel sadness over the various abuses of Kaladin's life.  John Wayne Gacy was an evil murderer who was solely responsible for his own actions, but I can still feel bad about the abuse he suffered as a child.  Just because someone is evil doesn't mean you can't sympathize with the pain they suffered.

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

Endowment has an association with 5? Where does that come from? Aren't there ten heightenings?

Not every shard has a number.  Endowment's number isn't as set in stone like Honor's is.  But many people theorize that that five holds repeated significance on Nalthis.  The Five moons, the five scholars, it takes fives heightenings to earn a divine breath, and the ten heightenings are divisible by five.

But like I said, this is probably a topic for a different thread.  The main discussion should be on the power levels of the Knight's Radiant.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

What makes you say Ruin is one? Or Preservation 16?

Because Allomancy, created by preservation, is composed of 16 base metals.  Also Leras says that 16 is the perfect number.  Hemalurgy, created by Ruin, using a single Hemalurgic spike to transport powers. 

But this topic has deviated far from the main topic.  I only mentioned the holy numbers in passing.  The main focus should be about why the Radiants are stronger than the Fused

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's Braize not Odium that is 9 centric

Both Braize and the Shard Odium are probebly 9 centric.  All the shards have a holy number associated with them. 

Ruin has 1 and Preservation has 16.  Endowment's is probably 5.  This has never been confirmed but many fans believe that Honor's holy number is 10 because the 10 orders, the 10 heralds, the 10 surges.  Odium's holy number is likely 9 because of the 9 Unmade and the 9 surges (the surge of adhesion is considered blasphemous).

Do you not think that Odium's holy number is 9? I suppose it could be something else.

I believe Sanderson has said that the Knights Radiant are supposed to be the most powerful invested mortals in the Cosmere.  A full Radiant is more powerful than a Mistborn, the Returned, a Fused, or anything else we have currently seen in the Cosmere.  This is because the requirements to become a Radiant are far more stringent than anything else in the Cosmere.  For example:

1. A Radiant has to obey fairly restrictive oaths, and learn to embody them by the 5th Ideal. 
2. A Radiant has to attract and bond with intelligent beings called spren, which is a risky and intimate bond.
3. A Radiant is restricted to Roshar, which is the only known source of stormlight in the Cosmere.  Sure a Radiant could carry stormlight with them, but eventually, that stormlight will dissipate.  That is also assuming a Radiant could leave.  Kalak was completely trapped.  It seems the more invested a Radiant is, the more they are tied to Roshar

The power of the Knights Radiant are offset by the restrictions.  Honor also invested far more of himself to Roshar than any other shard, meaning that the Radiant Oaths hold a bit more power than the power Endowment endowed to the Returned. 

I am not sure about this, but I think Odium's power involves copying the powers of other shards.  The only reason they are slightly different is because Odium's holy number is 9 not 10.  So I think it makes sense that Honor's power system (which has plenty of restrictions), is more powerful than Odium's power system in the long run.

On 1/18/2022 at 2:46 PM, Frustration said:

being nuanced but evil is still being evil is it not?

A villain and a sympathetic villain are still both evil.  But I think we can still, at the very least, feel sympathetic to the villain based of the reason they do things. 

There is a difference between Voldemort, who does evil for purely selfish reasons, and Taravangian, who does evil because he believes he is saving the world.  Both are evil villains, but I can sympathize with Taravangian more for his reasons for doing things.

Sympathizing with a villain doesn't mean you condone everything they do, it just means that you recognize them as flawed humans (not some immutable evil entity).  Characters like Lin and Moash underwent great pain that molded them for the worse.  Did that pain force their hands to commit evil?  Of course not.  Both of them are accountable for their evil actions.  But I can still empathize with the pain they felt that lead them to their current selves.  Not everything is black and white.

@Ookla the Frustrated I thought we could agree on one thing, Jasnah choose to kill those criminals.  At this point I don't care if she was right or wrong to kill them, she might have been right to kill them.  However, you keep saying that Jasnah was either incapable of non fatally subduing them, or she had to kill all of them because they could run away and get reinforcements.  But Jasnah admits many times that this isn't the case.  Jasnah simply wanted to eliminate them.

Way of Kings Chapter 36:

Jasnah said the foot pads might have harmed others.  This is Jasnah's philosophy and that's fine.  But we readers shouldn't pretend that Jasnah didn't have the ability to simply capture them.  Jasnah never said, I wanted to subdue them, but they gave me no choice. She didn't kill the footpads because Jasnah was hopped up on adrenalin or because killing them was more humane than capturing them.  Jasnah definitely wanted them eliminated.  If the the foot pads, got on their hands and knees and begged for mercy, Jasnah still probably would have killed them.

55 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Shattering your legs is a bit more than slightly injured.

If you want to say that breaking your legs is a really bad, fine.  Why do you care? A temporary injury is better then killing them.  Why do you now suddenly care about there comfort?

55 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Turning the ground beneath them to oil could work, but it would cost a lot more stormlight than you are making it out to be, you have to change a large portion, but not the entirety of the alleyway into oil, and then change it back.

As I have said and you have said, transforming organic matter uses more stormlight than transforming inorganic matter.  Jasnah has confirmed that turning organic matter into an essance uses alot more stormlight than turning inorganic stone into an essance.  Using stormlight to change every cell in the footpads body into smoke would have taken alot more stormlight than changing the stone under them in to oil.  She had the ability to execute pinpoint attacks on all four of the footpads.  Why would she now be unable to target the ground from under them?

The amount of stormlight needed is irrelevent anyway.  Jasnah went into that alley prepared for a fight  She could have brought exactly the amount of stormlight needed to subdue or kill, the footpads.  If she needed more stormlight to turn the alley into oil, then she could have brought more stormlight.  But she never saw subduing the footpads as in option.  She choose to kill the footpads (rightly or wrongly), she didn't have to chose between letting them go and killing them on the spot.

By the way, Jasnah admits that she intentionally killed the footpads.  Shallan asks her why the footpads had to die and Jasnah said they might have harmed others.  Jasnah never said, I wanted to let subdue them, but they gave me no choice.

55 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

And what happens in they are shorter than you excpected and are up to mid stomach? What happens if they had just exhaled when you soulcast the oil back into stone?  They suffocate to death. Transformation is a precice and deadly art.

Your lungs are in your chest, not your stomach.  But even if Jasnah accidentally submerged them up to their necks, the human body lives for four minutes without oxygen.  These footpads would have lost consciousness after 30 seconds.  Once they were unconscious, Jasnah could more accurately change their stone prison.

19 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I have yet to see a reasonable way she could have contained [the footpads] without [killing them].

You can claim that Jasnah was right to kill those footpads, but you absolutely cannot claim that Jasnah was actually incapable of subduing the the footpads without killing them.

Seriously, what is wrong with Jasnah turning the stone under the foot pads into oil, then once they are submerged, turn the oil back into stone?.  This would cost less stormlight than turning the organic flesh of the footpads into smoke.  No risk of breaking bones (although I have no idea why you care so much about the foot pads being slightly injured).

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

She has transformation not cohesion, at the beach you have sand that goes down far further but you won't sink an inch.

Her surges do not help as much as you think they do, if she had cohesion, or gravitation she could have done something, transformation is a lot more dangerous than most people give it credit.

Don't worry this will be my last post.

Jasnah doesn't need Cohesion to transform stone into sand and air.  Cohesion doesn't allow you to transform all objects into stone.  It allows you mold stone into a shape of your choosing.

The Surge of Transformation means changing objects into a material of the surgebinder's choice.  This can be done with any material, but it is most easily done with the ten essences like air, smoke, and oil.

She could have easily turned the stone from under the footpads into sand and air, or even oil.  Than when they are submerged, Jasnah can turn the material back into stone.

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

You aren't trapped in a pit half your height.

Yes, but once the footpads are in she could easily transform the air back into stone.

Those footpads died becasue Jasnah wanted them to die.  As other people have said, Jasnah had a many ways to not kill a fleeing target.  She is smart enough and experienced enough to do so.

24 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

I will respect that opinion.

I respect your opinion as well.

42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

What method of subduing them would you recommend that is more humane than instant painless death? I doubt she had the stormlight on her to actually make that work. 

The two footpads who ran away were turned into smoke by Jasnah.  Jasnah has said that turning organic material uses more stormlight than turning inorganic material.  So killing them actually used more stormlight.  She had more than enough stormlight to transform the inorganic material around her.

42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

SomeRandomPeasant said: But Jasnah could have easily transformed the stone from under him into smoke.  She had the power to pursue no lethal methods and she choose otherwise. 

Ookla the Frustrated responded with: if she did he would break his legs or die of brain truama from dropping into a pit large enough to hold him.

You don't break your legs or die of brain trauma by falling into a pit half your height.  But if you don't like my idea, fine.  She could have easily transformed the stone from under them into sand.  Than turn that sand into stone again, once they are submerged up to the waist.  

Jasnah is the most powerful living Radiant, after the Bondsmiths.  She has had her powers for the longest, and was already an accomplished transformation surgebinder before Kaladin ever met Syl.  If you are going to argue that she was actually incapable of non violently subduing the foot pads, than I think you are severely underestimating her abilities.

42 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

If an angry mob charges you, open fire.

Well now it makes sense!  I guess than we will just have to agree to disagree.  There is such a thing as justified use of deadly force, but I don't think it should be your first option.  Especially if you are a top tier, self regenerating Radiant.

16 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Yes, you can never be certain why someone is running, it could be to save themselves, or it could be to bring others into the fight, or to move to a more advantageous position.

So long as the individual who was initially attacked believes them to still be an active threat it is within their rights to kill them.

Jasnah wasn't high on the the Thrill, and the Thrill is already a poor justification for butchering people anyway.  Jasnah knew exactly what she was doing.

If Jasnah or you said, "well I made a mistake as a demigod, but I will try to do better next time" than that would be alright.  People make mistakes.  But it seems that you don't see this as a problem.  It seems like you are saying, well they were bastards anyway who cares if they die? I would agree that they might have deserved to die.  That doesn't give meaning I think it is okay for Jasnah to kill a fleeing target.  Subdue him and have him hung if he really deserves it.

11 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Someone can run to get reinforcements and are thus still a combatant.

You don't know that.  Again, if she was a mortal human, I can understand her going to far out of fear for her life and others. But Jasnah could have easily transformed the stone from under him into smoke.  She had the power to pursue non lethal methods and she choose otherwise. 

Out of curiosity, if a protest turned into a riot, and the rioters started to charge at the security guards, would you think that the guards would be justified in immediately gunning the rioters down? Or should altnernative methods be used, and killing be used as a last resort.  I know this isn't set in the world of Roshar.  I just want to hear what you think.

40 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

Being anylitical does not prevent you from acting out of instinct.

Saying that "instinct took over" seems like an excuse to me. 

Jasnah was in complete control of the situation, and they couldn't kill her in a million years. I would have a problem with a cop shooting someone in the back, or a soldier gunning down a surrendering fighter.  Are you telling me that you are okay with this?  Could any cop claim that they were just acting instinct as an excuse to kill any criminal who is running away? Is Jasnah not even accountable for that? Just because Superman has the ability to kill any criminal who comes his way, it doesn't mean he should.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

How on earth did Jasnah provoke an attack from people who she had never met?

She did nothing to them until they attacked her, she walked down an alleyway.

Where did I say Jasnah provoked them? I even said Jasnah might have been in the right to kill those footpads. 

My greatest concern is that she clearly went into that alley with the intention of executing vigilante justice.  Did she have to kill the footpads? As I have said many times, maybe.  But Jasnah certainly had other options.  This isn't a case of cop shooting someone who came at them with a knife.  This is like Superman breaking the necks of criminals who attacked him with a knife.  And in Jasnah's case, one of them was fleeing.  If Kharbranth was a lawless hellhole, than I can understand this form of retributive justice.  But vigilante justice is a dangerous path to walk. 

Jasnah told Shallan that the law as ineffectual in stopping crime in that area.  So, according to Jasnah, the criminals must be killed.  There can be no middle ground were she uses her influence as a Kholin to make effective changes.  Taking a third option won't always work, and I can understand someone resorting to butchery if they have no other options.  But it is troubling that Jasnah had no trouble taking the law into her own hands.  In this singular instance, there is enough of a grey area that Jasnah has good reason to think the way she does.  But this could be the beginning of her becoming a ruthless tyrant.  This way of thinking is no different than Nale or Taravangian, people who have committed atrocities for the greater good.

This to me seems like an interesting conundrum for Jasnah to have.  She isn't entirely wrong, but it could lead to Jasnah unilaterally making decisions for the rest of Roshar that would make her more of a tyrant than a benevolent ruler.  Decisions that even though the cost may be high, are excusable because they were for the greater good.  Why are they for the greater good? Because Jasnah says so.  And being as intelligent she is, she has good reason to trust her beliefs more than others.  But someone who is accountable only to themselves is frightening.

20 hours ago, Bliev said:

In this context, I don't really have much of a problem with Jasnah's actions...Those men thought they could hurt women with impunity. They were wrong and paid the price for it. She does not owe them mercy. Could she have granted it? Sure. But her decision to act in this way was a logical one that I understand.

Jasnah's actions were an unjustified use of self defense.

You say that Jasnah doesn't owe them mercy.  I would say a normal pedestrian who was simply using self defense does not owe them mercy.  However, I think someone like a cop, or an uber powerful Radiant like Jasnah should not seek death as their first option.  Jasnah was in even less danger than a mortal cop.  She was not simply acting in self defense, she is an ultra competent demigod who had complete control over the situation.  I think we can all agree that self defense is perfectly legitimate.  But very bad people have also used self defense as an excuse to carry out very bad agendas.

For example, let's say Jonathan makes a deliberate attempt to provoke Alison.  He calls Alison else the f-word, or the n-word, or some other slur.  Jonathan keeps antagonizing Alison but he doesn't lay a finger on her.  Than, Alison snaps and attacks Jonathan.  Now that Alison tried to draw first blood, Jonathan shoots her dead, and then claims self defense.

Obviously we would agree that Jonathan isn't acting very morally.  Jonathan is clearly intentionally using a tactic to legally kill someone.  So the biggest difference between Jonathan and Jasnah is whether you believe that the people they killed deserved it.  In this case, Jasnah might have been right about these criminals.  She also might have been right about serving the death penalty.  But their is a reason that vigilante justice is against the law.  People kill people wrongly all time over persevered slights.  Sometimes they kill the wrong person, sometimes they use past crimes as an excuse to carry out inappropriate forms of retributive justice.  Now, Jasnah is far smarter than the average lynch mob, but someone who thinks that they have the right to track down criminals and execute them has the potential to be very dangerous.  I can understand why, in this situation, you would see Jasnah's actions are justified.  I just think Jasnah's casual use of vigilante justice far more concerning than you do.

35 minutes ago, Ookla the Frustrated said:

So question of clairification.

Why Nale is wrong while following the law, and Jasnah is wrong because she doesn't?

That's a good question.  They are actually doing the same thing. 

They are both using the law as a shield against their actions, despite the fact that what they are doing is still morally dubious.  But in reality, they had both had an agenda that involved killing inconvenient people.  They both think they are doing things for the greater good, and I believe that they both have noble intentions. 

Nale once believed in the virtue of law as a concept, but now he uses the law as a tool to carry out his plans.  Jasnah hasn't become as corrupted as Nale, but I am concerned that she seems to be going down that path.  It seems like Jasnah is willing to do anything, so long as the ends justify the means.

Did these footpads deserve to die?  Maybe.  But that doesn't give someone the right to exact vigilante justice on who ever they thinks deserves it. 

Is Jasnah really that different than Nale the Herald of Justice? Nale was perfectly willing to (legally) kill a child because he believes that killing Radiants would end the Apocalypse.  A worthy goal some might say.  But in the end, he was wrong.  With noone else questioning her decision making, Jasnah has the potential of doing something truly awful because she believes her own logic is unassailable.

One the most heroic and tragically flawed aspect of Jasnah's personality is that she makes morally dubious decisions for the greater good.  She always thinks that her logic is perfectly sound and she is smart enough that most of the time she is actually right.  She has made enough right choices in her life that she trusts her own decision making for good reason.  But someone who thinks they are never wrong is dangerous, because noone can act without bias 100% of the time.  So someone independently dispensing justice as they see fit is pretty terrifying. 

By the way, it is really nice to see both sides making good points!

I think it is fine if people want to hate on Lirin.  Not every character will resonate with everyone.  However, I do think people are being a bit too hard on Lirin.  It seems that a lot of the arguments against Lirin boil down to two arguments:

1. Lirin is terrible because he harshly condemns the act of Kaladin killing the Regal

I know people seem to be pro Kaladin in this case, but I think Lirin actually brings up a good point.  Lirin had just spent the past couple years in a town that was peacefully occupied by the Fused.  As long as the Lirin didn’t antagonize them, the Fused seemed to be far more fair than the light eyes.  Then one day the heroic Kaladin comes to town and kills a Fused.  Even though Kaladin didn’t intend any harm, his actions would realistically put the lives of the townsfolk at risk as the Fused could easily interpret this as a Radiant attack.  It makes sense that Lirin would see cohabitation as a viable option. 

During the invasion of Urithiru, Lirin’s insistence on yielding to the Fused occupation is by no means foolish.  If the honorable Leshwi was in charge of the invasion, killing a Regal would have made it much harder for Leshwi to peacefully occupy the tower.  If the Pursuer was in charge of the invasion, the Radiants would be dead before their bodies hit the floor.  We as readers know that Raboniel would have killed them eventually.  But Kaladin and Lirin didn’t have that luxury.  In that moment, Kaladin and Lirin both had no way of knowing what the best option was.  Lirin knows that the Fused aren’t all sadistic monsters, so handing Teft over would not only save most lives, but it would also save his family from attack.

I don’t think this decision is black and white enough for Lirin to be hated for his philosophy.  

2. Lirin is terrible because he suggested that Kaladin should act like a “good slave”.

Lirin wasn’t supporting slavery as a concept.  He is simple of the opinion that working within the system will yield better results than actively opposing it.   It would be nice if a poor dark-eye could challenge the status quo without repercussions, but honestly, that usually isn’t the case.  Especially in a feudal society where eye color matters.  

I know people like to romanticize living in poverty, but in reality, if you are low on the totem pole, you simply don’t have the option to fight against the system.  If someone doesn’t have the power to change their station, their first thought usually isn’t “we need to fight the system!”.  Their first priority is survival.  People have mouths to feed, whether that be their family or themselves.  You can’t be productive when you're out of a job or in jail.  Openly rebelling against slavery would never be the safest option in the short term.  And a lot of the time, the short term is the only thing that matters.

Lirin in particular understands the price that usually comes with fighting against a corrupt system.  Lirin simply spoke out against greedy Roshone and the ensuing conflict ended with his two sons being killed.  I am not blaming Lirin for Tien’s death, I am simply emphasizing that, realistically, a poor dark-eyes would not stand a chance against a rich light eye like Roshone. I personally think Lirin’s approach is far more relatable and honest than Kaladin’s.

---------------

I just want to stress that I really like the Kaladin and Lirin relationship, even though these characters aren’t the nicest.  Their disagreements make each other's beliefs more layered and interesting. 

On 12/4/2020 at 9:09 AM, Greywatch said:

I don't care about comparing Lirin favourably or not against other characters to see who is "better" or "worse". All I know is, for such a "good" person, if my dad ever said to me what Lirin said to Kaladin, our relationship would be over.

I don't think the Kaladin and Lirin relationship is as black and white as that.

I remember when I came out to my mother who, at the time, was the only family I had living in the United States.  She wouldn't speak to me for almost a year.  I could have taken that from anyone else in the world, but not from her.  It took years of very real effort to regain some of the same happiness we used to have. It is only now, with several more years of separation from that time, can I admit that even though she made some serious mistakes, I still am comfortable in saying that she is still a "good" person.  She is the most hardworking person I know and she did everything in her power to earn a living.  She put up with far more than she deserved and had the strength to raise a family as a single mother.  I think people can still be "good" people even if they don't always do the right thing.

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Either you quoted the wrong post, didn't read beyond the first sentence and knee jerked a reaction, or you're projecting. 

That isn't fair.  I clearly responded to numerous points the poster were making throughout my response.  My main concern, was that they said "This negative complaining really makes it less interesting to visit this forum for me.".  That is incredibly sad to me.  I also thought they were oversimplifying the arguments of people who don't like certain characters.  They said: "I just don't understand what people see in these books if they don't wish to read about the characters that are different from themselves. I thought that was the whole point. As I said, that usually isn't why people dislike certain characters and I am trying to lead them away from that sort of thinking.

My post seemed pretty innocuous to be honest.

1 hour ago, Jenet said:

Wow. I honestly don't understand why many people even read these books. It seems so many people don't like the characters, find the arcs boring, and cringe when readiing important character development arcs. And I am really interested in understanding other people. I should study this forum more, it seems. 

These problems that our heroes struggle with are not easily solved. They take a long time, and lots of repetitive frustration to find a way out. That is one of the most believeable and interesting aspects of these books for me. 

I'm sorry, I haven't got anything to add to this thread. I find Shallan very interesting and I learn a lot from her. I just had to let out a little frustration. This negative complaining really makes it less interesting to visit this forum for me. For me the whole SA experience is about learning how to positively understand other people, and to stop complaining about how bad, boring and completely useless other people are. 

Please don't get me wrong, I don't wish to stop other people from complaining, I just don't understand what people see in these books if they don't wish to read about the chraracters that are different from themselves. I thought that was the whole point.

Even though I understand were you are coming from, I think this viewpoint is incredibly sad.  People are allowed to have different opinions about a character.  In fact, it is inevitable that people won’t like every single character because people in general tend to gravitate towards different ideas.  If people throw hate on someone because of their gender, race, or physical/mental abnormality, then that is a different story.  But I don’t see that kind of bigotry represented on this forum, and if someone does post genuine hate, the mods are quick to take it down.  

I personally like Shallan as a character, and don’t like Adolin as a character.  In the past, when I have voiced these opinions on this forum, people have naturally disagreed.  And in these cases, discussing these characters with various “haters” and “supporters” added new depth to the characters that I had not seen before.  This didn’t fully change my opinion, but open minded discourse forces you to not only confront opposing opinions but it also allows you to learn more about a character.  This forum is home to Lirin hate threads, Kaladin hate threads, Moash hate treads, Shallan hate threads and so on.  These threads, in my opinion, have yielded interesting discussions even when readers come down hard on particular character.  Disliking a character is usually more than just “hating someone who is different than themselves”.  Classifying character criticism like that is, I think, over simplifying their argument.

I urge you and other people on this forum to try to understand each other.  Just because someone else dislikes a particular character or finds their arc boring doesn’t mean their opinion isn’t valid.  

Simply complaining about a character is not the equivalent to hate.