Info_Drone-0451

Well, I choose to look at it like that: one year is plenty of time for the passion and infatuation to fade, and problems to start popping up and characters realising that maybe there're issues with their union that should have been resolved before they got married. And maybe those characters aren't ready to deal with these matters, especially if these issues had a year to take root and to be mulled over by those who should have thought a little more before making rush decisions while knowing how flawd these decisions where. I hope I'm being coherent but I have developed a monstrous headache so...

@Bookblessed Welcome and thanks for joining us! Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I'd like to adress this. I understand how you feel. I felt the same when I finished the book, as I think did many others. This thread helped to deal with it, given time. I hope it does the same for you, too. In the end it comes down to trusting BS. I think he knows what he's is doing, or at least I hope so. He hasn't disappointed me yet, not in that degree, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'd much rather spend the wait 'til next book being hopeful than not. But, yes, if the next book starts as you suggest it'll not do at all, to say the least. But until I see it I choose to believe that we're not stuck with it. That's what works for me though, and for you it's probably different and I am not trying to change your opinion or begrudge it, I'm just sharing my insight.

Welcome! Did you actually go through the whole thread?! That's admirable. That was a lovely post and we're used to wall of texts around here. Also, I think that it can serve as a very accurate and comprehensive summery as well. As for the thoughts expressed within, you probably know that they're shared by most people here, to varying degrees. Have you also read @Ailvara 's document? Anyway, I just wanted to welcome you. It's always so nice getting new people around here!

There are ohter threads who focus on these stuff. Most threads, actually. This one was created with the purpose to discuss the triangle as suggested by the title. And yes, there're other important and big stuff happenung. Does that make this romantic plotline less important? It's linked heavily with the characters, and their progression, that take part in those events.

I didn't say it should focus on the triangle, which is resolved for the time being. But there're obvious flaws in the resolution, and for these to be ignored would not do at all. They could be adressed along with the things you, and I as well, find important. Just because a plotline involves romance doesn't make it less important. But that's your personal opinion and I'm glad you chose to express it.

Would you rather have an unsatisfying conclusion just to have it done? Would that make the books better? Ignore all obvious set up, which will make it pointless and a waste, does that make for good wrtting? Even if it is sloppy and lazy writting, which I obviously think it isn't and it's intentional misdirection, shouldn't it be criticised in the hopes that it's imrpoved? I disagree. Romantic plotlines are an interesting part of the plot and the characters progression. It the part that people identify the most with and can understand the most. It's quite obvious that people want to talk about it, so there must be a reason behind it it.

It could be both, couldn't it? Jasnah has some ulterior motive, seeing the marriage she arranged come to fruition and rip the benefits perhaps, but she could still care for Shallan and thinks her cousin is perfect for her. Her attempt to set her straight as it it did could be an attempt at tough love from Jasnah's part, and it fits with her character. She can some times be heavy-handed, like with the muggers in Kharbranth, and it was a bit of chiding to set her ward straight and prevent her in making a bad decision, in her opinion. As for Navani... I think a large part of her just wants to see Adolin married and thinks Shallan is good for him but has barely any insight about her. So she sees two people that fit together, superficially at least, and it's perfectly natural for her to push for the marriage. It's pressure put on Shallan though, even if it's well meaning.

When I say forced into the arrange marriage I mean by circumstance. When Jasnah proposed the arranged marriage it was primarily to bring Shallan into the family and to provide protection for her family. Do you think under those circumstances Shallan good have refused such generous offer? How else would she have protected her brothers? Not to mention she looks up to Jasnah and and the latter has quite a lot of onfluence on her decision making ("What would Jasnah do?"). So I don't think it would be so easy for Shallan to refuse her even if she had the nclination to. Not to mention that at that point she was under Jasnah's power and she believed she needed her to teach her soulcasting to help with the return of Voidbringers. Also, she had just come of a traumatic relationship, and jumped into a safe one with the "perfect" prince immediately. That could have played a part into her choice. "I have just been hurt by a relationship but that sounds like a good one, not to mention all the political benefits and that it may help with the fight ahead. Also, Jasnah thinks it's a good idea and Jasnah is always right". Does this include Veden women as well perhaps?

Source: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62422-ob-adolin-shallan-kaladin-discussion/?page=18#comment-640726 I should go and fix those typos at some point... I just noticed them. I mean who's Balinar? Dalinar's off brand cousin?

@Rainier I understand and sympathize with the sentiment but expressing it and risking this wonderful thread isn't helping or contibuting to it. We mustn't let the standards of converstion drop and risk this turning into a battlefield. People clearly feel strongly and we should be mindful and respectful of that. Not trying to be patronizing or to deride you. I'm expressing the sincere desire that this discussion doesn't get derailed to meta subjects. I apologise if I somehow made you feel like I'm putting you down. Feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to express my concerns further and explain myself.

When you say marry humans you mean perform the ceremony? If you mean a relationship between Syl and Kaladin there're people who think it possible, I personally don't, but there's WoB out there referring to it and it isn't exactly encouraging. Here are two of threads discussing it.

What I meant by forced was that Kaladin kinda forced himself to think that as a reason to repress his feelings, just to feel agreement and accept the situation, as @DeployParachute suggests, and not have to make a choice.

It really doesn't though. Just because she vaguely reminds him of his brother, or how he made him feel, just doesn't mean that a romantic relationship can't happen. It's very weak reasoning in Kaladin's part for him to step out of the triangle and it feels forced. Bridge 4 are Kaladin's squires before they start bonding Honorspren. If Adolin is to become a KR, it would be an edgedancer due to his blade, which I don't personally agree with as I'd classify him closer to Willshaper, but probably not a Lightweaver as I don't think he has the temprement or artistic skill for it. Also, Shallan is a Lightweaver and I'm not sure it works like that for their squires, if they indeed have any, as Gaz and the rest of her people haven't shown signs of bonding Cryptics. Lastly, I don't think Adolin as a character has the inclination to become his own wifes squire.

Shallan didn't have any single faced romances in the past. Just Kabsal, who got a lot more screen time that any of Adolin's relationships. And I can't see how something like that would make them excellent for each other. Previous failed romantic relationship would indicate possible failure in the future. We haven't seen Adolin taking a look on what didn't work in the past so he can work on fixing them, and if these issues don't resurface in the future because he found the right girl who magically fixed his problems, then what was the point of them? Just a cute plot device for his character? And a relationship needs match more than sexual attraction and playfulness in the bedroom (which I don't believe is something that BS will portay) to work, in my opinion. I hope you said that in a playful and joking manner. Otherwise, the phrasing makes me a bit uncomfortable, and as Shallan stated she isn't anyones catch to be given away. Not to mention that in her current state of mind she isn't much of a catch, in my opinion.

Hello @Xarallei and welcome! Thanks for joinning us and contributing in this discussion. If you're just joinning I'd like to point you to two summeries to get you caught up and perhaps adress some of your doubts and concerns, as has been done for all of us. A quick summery made by me A more thorough made by @Ailvara I, sincerely, hope that these help!

You are probably right, but I think it could be a cool plausibility, but I don't have much to argue in favour of it.

Not that I disagree with you, but do we know for a fact that she was coerced in any way? I don't find it impossible that she was the one to actually suggest the marriage. I mean since a young age she was pushing Kaladin to become a soldier and win a Shard, which to me shows that she's very much concerned with the social standing of her possible husband. And she pushes him to fight with the other boys and seems quite dispassionate when he loses, and she picks up and leaves. Also, in the scene with Rillir she seemed willing enough to play along with the berating of Kaladin, but broke at some point and pleaded with Rillir to stop, which shows to me that she was trying to appeal to him. And as you say, she was in an appalling position, would it be so strange to latch on Roshone in order to fulfill some cultural stereotype and enjoy whatever protection he could offer her?(okay, that last one is a bit weak but a cool possibility). What I mean to say is what if Laral was never the victim that escaped and took control, but had some control from the beginning and a general plan in her head for what she wants in a husband (someone with a good social standing but contollable enough). Actually, if all of the above are true, it makes Laral a much more appealing character in my eyes. As for future romantic plot with Kaladin, I don't dismiss it but it would take quite a lot of effort put into it in order to make it believable and satisfactory, at least for me.

Oh, it was mostly a joke on my part... I have absolutely no idea what the 4th Ideal might be. I agree that it may be time for some Leadership Ideals, though.

@Ailvara Amazing work! I've just begun it and I'm already atounded by the effort you have put. So many information and annotations... Love it!

That's strange... It takes me right to it. November 22 page 18, Theory regarding who is who in the triangle posted by me... Yay! I inspired someone! Do it! Mine is more like a quick Previously on... so, yes, having something longer and more comprehensive will also be good.

Many of the things that I wrote above were not in the feedback I submitted (everything below "Let me know if I missed anything." wasn't in the original and the tone of the original text was different as the paragraphs that are missing here make it much less critical in my opinion), which was done weeks ago and not with the express purpose of capturing the feelings of the community, but mostly my own which happened to match many of that were included here, and which I tried to include as well. Anyway, thanks for the feedback

So here we’re a month later and were to we stand? Well, I thought that I should try to make a summary, in order to assist people that are just now joining us. Some of the stuff mentioned below are re-purposed from the feedback email I send BS though his website, because I think it encapsulates our thoughts and criticisms well enough. The text in it was checked by @PhineasGage so part of the credit goes to them as well, they did an amazing job in helping me get my point across. The main concerns regard the portrayal of dealing with mental issues, the developments as a character of the female protagonist, and the apparent lack of fulfillment of promises made through this book and parts of the previous one. Many of us feel that the resolution of the protagonist's mental issues were not solved in a medically realistic manner and were only used to advance the plot line. Another point of consternation is the apparent need for the female protagonist (Shallan) to be rescued from her struggles by a traditional male archetype (Adolin). This results in him “enabling” her, so to speak, This would be bad enough from a feminist perspective, but the idea of him seeing the “real” Shallan is also incorrect when the kind of discussing dissociative states she has, and that matter is ignored so that another arranged marriage could be brought to conclusion. It is felt this has perhaps been overdone. Lastly, it is felt by many readers that false promises were made through the text regarding the progression of two characters (Kaladin and Shallan) and their relationship, but were not addressed in a satisfying manner no matter where they might have led. As result readers who got invested in said characters are feeling upset, deceived, toyed with and, personally, that their favorite character was mishandled in order to be needlessly used as a plot device. We feel that this diminishes Kaladin’s value in the storyline simply to progress a romantic story line that is written in a very archetypal fashion. Let me know if I missed anything. Moving on, I'll try to list what has been further discussed in this thread. It is felt that motherhood for Shallan, at this point of her life, would not be an advisable course, not only for the child but her as well. Adolin should be further developed as character and face the consequences of his actions, no matter if they were moral or immoral, because Sadeas murder was presented as something that would have ramifications. This wasn't shown in text, but instead it was glossed over. Possibilities for the further development of him included a darker future for him, as it's quite impossible for him to get more perfect than he already is, not to mention that it would be dull. The marriage of those two characters feels quite rushed with a large number of issues that need to be addressed for it to be successful. These matters should be addressed in a believable manner and with an open mind, which means that if they cannot be believably resolved then the marriage should be terminated, as to preserve the interest in the development of both characters. Another interesting plot plot-point that has been brought up is the possible fraying of the bond between Shallan and Pattern due to her self-deception and lack of self-awareness. This is supported by instances in text where Pattern displays odd behavior that could suggest that his mental capacity is diminishing. This is only an attempt to list important points that it is felt that should be addressed and I'd be willing to add more if they are pointed out for me, as I have only listed the ones I remember from my daily perusal of this thread. Here I'll list some links of two popular theories, one of them is my own and the other is that of @DeployParachute. This was an attempt to summarize what has been discussed over the past month. I hope it it is helpful for people that are just joining, as well as a reminder for people that have been here since the beginning. I thought that this would be a good point in time to make this post as the thread is almost 60 pages long and has become a daunting task to sift through.

Wait a minute... What if it goes the other way around and this is a progression moment for Kaladin. "What should have you done except protecting yourself? Well, that sound like a great idea. I have to start doing that instead of constantly berating myself. Protect my self if I can't poretect others, so that in the future I can keep protecting.Yeah, sound like the reasonable and realistic thing to do". I doubt that it's going to be as easy as that, it's Kaladin we're talking about here.

Alright, here are my thoughts/fanfiction on the matter. I cannot see Jasnah and Kaladin together. At least not romantically. What I can see is Jasnah having the need for a king/prince consort for some political reason and Kaladin would be a good candidate for the position. He is fairly well known and popular with the army and he'd be another Radiant in the Kholin family, which will be a plus in Jasnah's opinion. The issue would be convincing Kaladin to go for it. Maybe lure him in with the prospect of protecting the people of the real by assisting or something like that. So, yeah, no romantic love, but something along the lines of what Gavilar and Navani because I get the feeling that neither where starstruck with each other from what Navani says in The Way of Kings. The last part also fits with an another theory of mine, some people will know what I'm referring to As for Syl and Kaladin... No, for all the reasons mentioned above... As for all the other options, I can see them happening or at least being possibilities. Has anyone mentioned Tarah yet? I haven't seen her name popping up yet, but I only did a quick scan so I might have missed something... Archer. I've said before in an other thread with similar content. If Kaladin is to be with someone that hasn't yet been introduced yet, and that someone is a fighter, I suggest an archer. In addition, I'd prefer a Bav (basically Rosharan Scottish in my mind), because I want to see more of them, and while we're at it have her be a Robin Hood type of person, not many forests on Roshar though. I wouldn't mind them not being a Radiant, just really good with archery but very mediocre in melee, neither would I mind them not turning into a Windrunner Squire, I'd actually prefer it that way. Anyway, that covers the fanfiction part of this reply.

So there're a couple of things I'd like to bring attention to, so let's begin. The above passage is from Shallan. So what do you think? Forshadowing and a moment of self-awareness fro Shallan or just a throwaway piece of dialogue. I think and hope that it must be the former that the latter. Let's continue with something more recent. Also from Shallan. So it's suddenly Radiant who wants to spend time around Adolin while Shallan doesn't know what she wants? This whole chapter is basically Shallan struggling with her identity. Now it might be that by the time she makes her choice she has found out what she wants and who she is but from what has been pointed out here I'm not entirely convinced. The Shallan that Adolin "chose" seems to be the one who knows what she wants the least and is struggling with her identity the most. Let me know what you think. Am I reading too much into it and expect too much out of random pieces of dialogue? I don't think so but I thought it'd be good to get someone else to examine these tidbits...