Inevitable

I think the Way of Kings would work well as an RTS in the mould of the Total War series. Players can choose one of the High Princes to play as and either fight the Parshendi, or other High Princes (a little creative license for more interesting gameplay). Each High Prince has its own specialities, such as Dalinar having stronger Heavy Infantry, and Sadeas moving about the map faster (due to Bridge Crews).

I thought of an open world style RPG for Elantris, employing the Aon rune drawing. Players assign chosen runes to hotkeys (or buttons. I'm a PC player myself). When they use a rune, the player character draws it in the air. Upgrade the rune for added effects, which cause it to take longer, or upgrade the player's speed at drawing it. Could work even better on the DS, with the player actually drawing the rune themselves. The hotkey option is still there, but the player can pause the game and draw one themselves. Depending on how accurate it is, the player drawn rune can be much stronger than the hotkeyed one.

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The thing with Sanderson's magic systems is they suit computer games unbelievably well. The limitations are all clearly spelled out. The magic is simple to grasp, yet vast in effects.

I've not touched Mistborn, since it's actually in development, and been discussed a lot already. But the only series that wouldn't translate well is the more vague Warbreaker. The magic system there seems far less understood. Also it'd be impossible to implement that ability to see all the shades of a colour.

Oh, but it is important as hell. I mean, I am very much alive and I like being in this way. Life is damnation important to me. I could live without gravity. I'm sure it must be weird and have its problems. But damnation, I'm sure would rather have no gravity than no life.

And really, without life? No cosmere or the books either. If life didn't exist, then there would be no shardholders, no mistborns, no elantrians.

All the problem behind the Mistborn trilogy was the fight of two shards for the creation and subsequent destruction of Life in a barren world. Preservation and Ruin agreed to create Life in Scadrial with the point that Ruin would destroy it eventually, but Preservation tried to stop him. All that happened was because of Life.

We could say almost the same about all the books and I would bet that the Cosmere Metaplot is basically this, too. All happened because of Life, in a way or another.

So, yeah. Life is definitely a Thing, with a enormous "T". It might not be a surge, but it is damnation well important enough to be.

"If a tree falls in the woods and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Personal bias. This is a typical example of Anthropocentrism. Essentially it's that humans have a habit of perceiving themselves as the centre of all things. And yes, I do include myself in this. Everyone does it, without even realising it. It's even in the name: "Human" confers a notion of "humanity". We've named ourselves after an ideal. I'd imagine a hypothetical alien would find this terminology insulting.

Anyway, though you don't specifically refer to humanity, but rather the nebulous concept of "life", you do go on to define its importance based on the the observation and understanding of the universe by our species. You argue that you'd rather have no gravity than no life. But this is meaningless. If there was no life, the Universe wouldn't ground to a halt. Everything keeps spinning whether we're around to watch it or not.

What's more is you're not even talking about Life in the same way we were before. Then it was Life as a healing force. A magic clearly based in the Physical Realm. Now you're talking about intelligence and observation. Clearly Cognitive and Spiritual, which I said earlier I'd rather not deal with, as both of those are completely fictional. Therefore the importance of "Thought" (to discern it from the healing, physical aspected, "Life") within the cosmere can be discussed all you want.

Soulcasting is just as much a product of matter as Life. They both work by manipulating the bonds between matter. And you still haven't dealt with my point that nearly every other magic enhances Life (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and AonDor directly, AonDor, Awakening, and all Surgebinding indirectly).

I wouldn't describe Soulcasting as a "product" of matter as such. Soulcasting is, rather, the mastery of matter and the bonds that make it up.

Stormlight is like a drug. When it's in your system it effectively replaces the normal sources of energy, including oxygen. What it provides is a super version, enhancing your physical body. The other systems operate on the same principle. They don't enhance "Life", they enhance the body's properties.

You could argue that those are the same thing, but I've already pointed out that healing is basically just Soulcasting but with added complexities. Making it a unique surge in these circumstances would be like making Weight different to Gravity. There's just no point.

Of course, I admit that there may end up being a Life surge. I just think the idea is absurd.

But that's the point really. Surely you see why I think this without me explaining it? You must be able to tell that Life just isn't as... important as the other things. It doesn't, as such, deserve to be in the same tier as Gravity and Pressure.

Ok, "mystical energy" was a poor choice of words.

It's more... Gravity is a thing, it can be identified as this single phenomina, revolving around mass and pulling forces

Pressure is a thing as well. Concentrations, volume, that stuff.

Travel is... too uncertain right now to say anything about. Might be to do with dimensions and warping reality...

Soulcasting is also difficult to work out. Presumably it could be described as Matter. Which is something clear

Time (unconfirmed) is a thing. The progression of past to future.

"Life" is just a set of reactions. It has no inherent power, indeed, would appear to be just a product of Matter, and therefore should be subject to Soulcasting, which is why Soulcasting can, infact heal.

No. In the same way that the Surge of Gravity is the force that pulls things towards the ground, the Surge of Life is the force that keeps your body running and is responsible for natural healing.

Except the force that keeps your body running and is responsible for natural healing is chemistry.

Pressure may not be fundamental, as such, but it... actually this is too hard to explain.

I'll leave it at this: I just don't see life as being important on the cosmic scale of things. There's no mystical energy working behind the scenes that allows things to live, there's nothing out there for a surge to tap into and use.

For this, I am pretty sure its certain that the only reason that Dalinar experiences these visions is as a kind of 'videolog' left by Honor before his Shattering that is activated in an individual when they portray the exact attributes Honor looks for, to warn him about the coming Desolation.

My personal opinion is that part of it is a videolog. Most notably the vision where Honor talks to him for more than a few words.

The REST of it isn't a log. Dalinar clearly shows that he can interact with the visions. Since Honor is dead by this point, he cannot be manipulating it to make sense in that context, or he could respond to Dalinar's questions. Thus I conclude that Dalinar is being subjected to a Time Surge (that may or may not be an ability of his own) that is showing him possible pasts. Specifically, a key event, chosen by Honor, then branches into whatever path that describes how that period would have gone had Dalinar actually been in control. A sort of varient of Malatium, but for the past and with the ability to control what you see. This enables Dalinar to extract far more information from the visions that if he were simply watching them play out.

There's been no real evidence that it is.

There ARE those Cognitive and Spiritual things. But that has, by definition, nothing to do with the physical body, and therefore Regrowth.

So while the mind/spirit and actions of the living may have profound importance in the cosmere, the body does not. The body is just a collection of biochemical reactions, hardly an "elemental force" worthy of a surge. Sanderson has, both in Mistborn and here, made a clear effort to produce almost scientific magic systems. If this were to be upheld I can't see any way Life could be a surge.

Something that's just occured to me: It's argued that Time is not the Surge involved in regrowth, however we know that the KR orders all possessed two surges. Could Regrowth be a product of Time and Soulcasting, which we've already seen to have healing properties?

The Surge of Life is the natural biochemical energy that is responsible for the ordinary healing and working of your body. So Regrowth supercharges the body's natural healing powers in a manner analogous to gold Feruchemy.

It's not important though.

I mean, sort of yes, but it's just a series of chemical reactions.

The confirmed Surges are pressure, matter [transformation], and gravity.

These are fundamental components of the Universe. "Life" is, as far as the Universe is concerned, a wholly unimportant side-effect of other forces. It is not, in any way, relevant to the grander scheme of things.

It just doesn't make any sense putting it with Gravity and the likes.

A lot of this was recently discussed in the Regrowth thread actually. I also mentioned my own reasons for why I think there's a Time Surge there (in short; Dalinar's visions of the past).

Now we all know about the Thrill, a feeling of joy in battle, that it is taboo to mention. Many people have speculated that it is tied to Odium and I agree with that. I would like to extend this, and say that since the only people who have felt the Thrill are those with Shardblades, I think that the Thrill is tied to the Shardbades, who have been corrupted by Odium. (The corruption idea is not my own) So my idea is that the Radiants began to feel the Thrill in battle. They recognized the touch of their greatest enemy, and immediately gave up their weapons to avoid being manipulated.

Though only those with Shardblades appear to feel the "Thrill" you should remember that there are only 4 main, male, characters that the book follows. Szeth is probably too miserable to feel anything but self-pity in battle, and Kaladin is too restrained by his own honour. The other two are the shardblades. When the Thrill is discussed I'm pretty sure it claims that all men feel it, not just shard-wielders. Also, back to Szeth, he has a Shardblade yet feels no Thrill.

As a final point from me, I'm really not fond of this idea that shardblades are somehow derived from Odium. As I understand it, the whole thing is derived from Kaladin and Syl's distaste of them. Remember, though, Kaladin also rejected the shardplate Amaram now has. If the shardblade was the source of his unease, he could have rejected that and still kept the plate. The counter argument would be that Syl focusses on the fact Dalinar gives up the sword at the end of the book, and doesn't mention the plate. At this point, I don't think Dalinar HAS given up the plate, and even then, he's just giving it to his son. It's not really as lost to him as the sword becomes.

There could be any number of simpler reasons why Syl dislikes shards, or Shardblades if you prefer to think there's a distinction. They could be symbolic to her of the Recreance. The betrayal by the Knights Radient, and therefore a loss of honour. Or perhaps the betrayal has been mis-understood by history. In which case, I've argued elsewhere that the Shards may be viewed as very valuable, almost holy items. Potentially they are unique to each shardbearer, or have to be earned in a complex ceremony. Either way, whenever they're used by someone who's not a KR she sees that person as a thief... or dishonourable.

I can't see anything like that. But it might be due to a smaller map.

Can you screenshot it?

Also while I'm here, why is there a woman on the borders of that map. Is it just decoration? *peers closer* She seems to have one of those safe-hand cover things, so I'm guessing it is.

I noticed during my reread that one of the epigraphs seems to mention Shinovar, at least in my opinion. Its the epigraph for chapter 8.

"Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn."

The only place I can actually see farms happening is in Shinovar, where they have soil for cultivation. The last line "they shall burn, as we once did" seems to point towards the Heralds.

During one of the Kaladin's Past chapters he and his family are depicted living in a settlement where most people are farmers.

It also wouldn't make sense if there were no farms. It'd be impossible to support a civilisation of the size we see in WOK without them, Soulcasters or not.

Plants grow on the rocky landscape of Roshar. That's farmable right there. Soil is not a required component.

i think im getting it but dont fruechemic powers also help the body adapt to the changes.

Only when being tapped.

I wrote a post earlier... Somewhere I'm not going to bother to find since I'm using my mobile... That dealt with how feruchemy protects the user from his own power using steelrunning as an example.

Feruchemy protects steelrunners by increasing the tensile strength of their muscles, ligaments, etc...

Otherwise steelrunner would tear his own limbs off.

A small amount of that tensile strength would also help against impact damage.

Otherwise steelrunners would shatter their own ankles.

Steelrunners have to be careful when impacting slower moving objects (punching, kicking, faceplanting) because the bigger the difference in speed, the bigger the impact.

The reason I listed flails and rocks is because these can be used primarily with tensile strength and won't harm the ferring.

I listed knives for the Count of Montecristo. Speed is the key to a knife fight.

/

So what would happen if you were already holding the potential opponent, and then tried to push them at high speed?

Suddenly I realize another weapon that's perfect for steelrunners.

Throwing rocks.

A steelrunner could totaly take out thugs and brutes will well placed rocks moving at 100 plus mph. Total David vs Goliath.

... Which raises the interesting question of would that break the Steelrunner's hand? We know that hitting someone would cause major damage to the Steelrunner and throwing is effectively the low-mass version of hitting.

And if that IS the case, shouldn't the Steelrunner's clothes cause hidious bruising?

Hmm... or am I being tired-induced stupid? The rock would accelerate with the hand holding it... as long as you don't try hitting it mid-air there wouldn't be any effect?

Bah, I'll think more on this in the morning.

It looks like the 16 non-god metals are divided into four categories of four- and also two categories of eight. There could be two more categories of eight, divided into two larger categories of 16.

My point is that the Law of 16 can apply also to groups of four, eight, thirty-two, forty-eight, and sixty-four as well as sixteen.

Additionally, while the alloys of Lerasium likely create Mistings and maybe Ferrings, we have no idea was the alloys of Atium could do.

Actually, we know that Lerasium does create Mistborns and it's alloys create Mistings (Ferrings aren't mentioned at all, and it'd be more likely that they'd be related to the hypothetical Sazedium, since Feruchemy is a product of both Preservation AND Ruin). We also know that it does "something else" as well. As in, an actual effect. Though we haven't learned what any of these alloys actually do, we have been told that Lerasium grants further Physical or Enhancement effects to the base alloy.

Atium, which we do have one example of, grants further Temporal or Mental effects. Consider Gold, which grants a vision of a different path the user could have taken. Its Atium alloy, Malatium, adds a further temporal effect, by granting a vision of another person's past.

Not really about "Regrowth", but this does tie into the idea of a high-speed heal.

Could one of the missing surges be "Time"? We've already seen time-based powers in Mistborn and it is my belief we've seen a Time-surge already in WOK. Namely, with regards to Dalinar's visions.

First of all, the Almighty refers, at some point, to predicting the future, albeit, inaccuratly. In Mistborn, Electrum shows its burner potential futures, while Atium shows them only one (imo, the most likely potential rather than the actual predetermined future. The fact Vin can break it shows Atium is not 100% perfect). Honor used this to predict the existance of Dalinar (or, more likely, several Dalinar-like people) and then left his message for them.

Second of all, Dalinar's visions of the past are similar to the powers of Gold and Malatium. Gold, notably, shows other potential realities. Dalinar clearly has the ability to interact with his visions, as evidenced by the one where Dalinar fights the Midnight Essence, and infact this "Regrowth" thing is seen. Whoever Dalinar was "playing" in it could not possibly have actually fought the Midnight Essense, as evidenced by the reactions of those around him. Dalinar was clearly acting upon the world and changing it. However, altering the past is a horrible trope, so I'm hoping that's not what happened. Instead what we may be seeing is a variation of Gold's Allomatic power: Dalinar isn't changing the past, he's seeing the alternative past of what would have happened if he had been in charge at the time.

That's not to say Dalinar himself has Time-surge abilities. The whole thing could have been orchestrated by Honor.

The other temporal metals of Mistborn involve slowing or speeding up time. The latter could relate to the enhanced heal rates of Regrowth.

Agreed. I still don't really see the value of Duralumin in compounding: it explicitly does not flare itself down to nothing like Aluminum does, so it could not be boosting your burn of Duralumin, even Feruchemically charged Duralumin. And even if you had Duralumin plus some other form of Compounding somehow, Duralumin doesn't give you greater yield than everything you could have gotten out of your current metals, as far as I know. It just lets you have it all at once.

Of course, Allomancy is the art of getting extra, so maybe I'm wrong, and Duralumin does give you more total than you could get without it, but even then, all you've managed is to save yourself the cost of some metal (they type you Compound, obviously) at the expense of some also-pricey Duralumin. You don't need the Duralumin to reach an arbitrarily large amount of an attribute, since Compounding is an infinite loop already.

Which is sort of why I was wondering if Compounded Duralumin bypasses the two-way connection. Compounded, the resulting Connection would be greater than the amount put into the burned metalmind.

Of course, this seems like trying to hard at this point. Though possible I think I'll just sweep the whole Duralumin Compounder idea away untill/unless something from Sanderson gives a hard answer.

In the meantime, someone mentioned spies. Brass/Duralumin is good, but I prefer Tin. That way they have the senses to... erm... spy better. Brass is definatly a good one for thieves though.

Electrum is an odd one. Storing determination. I saw mention of Pewter...

Pewter/Electrum

Someone uses pewter to accomplish a long-term taks, like holding a boulder or running huge distances, until it completely burns out, leaving them to the bodyshattering consequences.

Then they tap into their filled to brim Electrum-mind, the ensuing determination allows them to circumvent the part of the brain that prevents humans from using all of their strenght, giving them one last burst of energy and keeping them going no matter the pain and broken bones, because their goal is just so important.

A combination that is usefull once, for a very short time, and then they die.

(This is also my understanding of how the mythological marathon was run.)

The Determination to bypass the body's unconcious restrictions (Charles Atlas SuperpowerCAUTION: TvTropes page). Consider that it won't necessarily result in certain death. Pewter encourages healing (such a shame we can't have Gold AND Electrum Feruchemy) and increases the body's resistance. It doesn't remove those self-imposed restrictions though. With this in mind, Electrum could allow the Twinborn to effectively use Pewter to its maximum effect, not much greater than normal, but enough for an edge. It'd be a fine line to walk though. Too far over and you risk major damage.

Some other side effects of Electrum could include immunity to Brass soothing, though increased susceptibility to Zinc rioting.

My assumption is unlikely at least because Soulcasting is much more likely to be Transformation and thus being a type of Surgebinding (I slowly gather knowledge around other threads, yes )

Then, as you say, if Shardwielding is a distinct type of magic, I would first wonder if it's another magic type like Surgebinding. Or if it's a sub-category to one of these.

Surgebinding is linked to Honor. If I understood conclusions in this forum right, then you gain abilities by bonding to an Honorspren. Which is attracted to you because you act honorable (Kaladin by protecting young recruits and bribing the surgeons to care for his men). So, if you stop acting honorable, would the bond uphold? (what is the opposite of honorable, by the way?) Let's say it does.

In that case Szeth wouldn't get his abilities by a bond with an Honorspren. Either because he never acted honorable in the first place or because he stopped acting honorable by killing everything simply because his master desires it.

But he still has his powers. Which would point to a conclusion that what he does is not Surgebinding but something different. What that might be, is another question.

(Related questions would be: how did Szeth get his powers? Did he learn the Lashings by someone? His expertise in that area seems to point that way? so, do Shin still possess knowledge of Surgebinding and whatever that is?)

I know that Szeth isn't supposed to be "on the same path" as Kaladin or whatever, but I'll just add:

It is my opinion that Szeth is actually one of the most "honourable" characters in that book, excluding Dalinar and Kaladin. Szeth is doing something he despises because he perceives it as his assigned tast. He doesn't want to kill anyone, but because of his own sense of duty and honour he has to obey the owner of that crystal. While his actions might be considered "dishonourable", his motivations paint a different story entirely.

A Feruchemical metalmind behaves exactly like any other Allomantic metal when burned, so Duralumin would set it off.

In other words: burning duralumin while tapping a metalmind doesn't do anything, but burning regular Duralumin while burning a metalmind will.

What I refered to ^^

Also that two way connection is saddening. Though it strikes me more as a gameplay balance device I suppose we have to take it as a general fact. Does it say if compounded Duralumin is two way as well? I only ask because all the allomatic manipulative abilities will only work on others.

I was thinking about a Duralmin Compounder today.

Someone said this earlier in the thread:

One big weakness of Duralumin Feruchemy is that it cuts both ways. You gain a bond to everyone else just as they gain a bond to you.

... and I'm curious as to where they got this from. The description of Duralumin Feruchemy clearly states that it affects other people reactions, but mentions nothing about the Ferring themself. The closes you get is "Tapping the metalmind will allow the user to form trust relationships with others much faster". Though you could interpret it as a 2-way bond, it doesn't have to be. The Ferring doesn't need to be affected by their own power.

If I'm right (and I might not be) this removes the previously posed issue with a Duralumin Compounder. Someone mentioned that they would make a good politician, but presumably there's a range involved with this, and you can't keep your entire electorate in that range. It's thinking small anyway. It seems more likely that a Duralumin compounder could, effectively, force others to obey them, out of the power of friendship, as corny as that sounds. Even if the subject knows they're being controlled, they won't care.

More interesting is what would happen if the Compounder then used standard Duralumin Allomancy. A sudden explosion of overwhealming friendship? Would it even do anything? Once the Compounded Duralumin is gone the extra friendship should vanish to? Or perhaps something else happens entirely.

Another tangent, copperclouds protect from emotional allomancy. Though this shouldn't affect Duralumin feruchemy, it may well block compounded Duralumin. This is the only counter I can think of for this Twinborn combination, assuming that the connection is one way.

The Heralds.

From the prelude we know not much about them. There are ten of them. One of them is a king.

What really bothers me is the immortal part. I haven't read Elantris yet, but I don't recall any immortal beings in BSs books apart from the Shards. What about Hoid?

Is their immortality part of the Oathpact as well? In that case, wouldn't they become mortal by abandoning the pact? I don't think they do, because I believe that they will still have to play an active role in the story.

The whole point of the Lord Ruler and the Final Empire was that he was immortal.

I also doubt this idea that Thunderclasts are pupated Chasmfiends.

It seems unlikely that they are, and have been, successfully hunted with 100% efficiency by the Parshendi.

Dustbringers seem an interesting one. The name itself doesn't seem to have any connection with heat. Perhaps it's a form of Soulcasting, one which includes the generation of a large amount of heat.

I've seen this idea that the Shardblades are creations of Odium pop up a lot here.

I'm wondering if this is hypothesising or if there's a quote out there?

Just to add my thoughts, I sincerely doubt this is the case. Rather, I suspect that Syl's objection to Shardblades comes from, essentially, wrong ownership. We know that Shardblades/plates behaved differently in the hands of the Knights Radient. Something they do makes it work better and maybe it's a simple case of ritualised ownership. As far as Syl's concerned, anyone using Shards now is a thief. This is dishonourable, hence her issue with it. As the Knights Radient clearly fought against Odium, it would make no sense for them to be connected, even under the premise of this Oathpact idea (which is actually rather good for the most part). After all, if the Shardblades were created from Odium's power, then that is rendered meaninless by the fact that they proceed to fight Odium, thus Syl shouldn't behave so upset.

Wait a minute... I know how Wax could shoot out of Wayne's Bendalloy bubbles. Once a bullet gets distorted, it probably has too much force to be kept on track precisely by Steelpushing. But if Wax through a bunch of coins (or, knowing him, shell casings) at people, let them get distorted, then re-positioned himself within the bubble to line up a new shot and Pushed again, that should work. Nasty.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

Actually I figured this one out the moment I heard about bullet paths being distorted. Technically Wax doesn't do this, but instead a slight varient of it. For those who can't remember (like me), Wax fires a first bullet normally, which deflects, then carefully aims the second one to deflect off the first (with a push to that it actually catches up). He's able to do this because he's worked out how the change in time affects the path of the bullet.

When you put a straw in a glass of water. The straw in the water appears to be displaced from the rest of the straw because light travels slower through water than air. The exact same thing is happening here, except that it's not just light that's being slowed down. Everything that passes through the barrier ends up being distorted. However, if you were able to work out just how much distortion is present, you could correct your aim accordingly. There is probably a formula you could come up with. Chuck in a Zincmind to actually make the calculation and you've got a Twinborn that can, if sufficiently armed, kill tens of people within a few seconds.

So yeah, beware the Bendalloy/Zincmind Twinborns.

There was also some discussion about a Steel Compounder. That one interests me a lot. The problems associated with hitting things at high speed, and indeed reacting to stuff can be offset. Rather than staying at highspeed all the time, the Steel Compounder could move in sudden jumps. Actually hitting someone is just a matter of turning it off, and to be fair, that's not even necessary. Guns don't require forceful impact after all...

I have registered just so I could post in here.

I think some of you are going about this the wrong way. As I only discovered reading this thread, Atium adds "Temporal and Mental" effects ( http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090916215123/mistborn/images/0/04/Table_of_Allomantic_metals.jpg ). This is in contrast to Larasium, which produces Physical and Enhancement effects.

With that in mind, I've come up with a few ideas of my own:

First of all, the allomatic metals are already grouped into Physical, Mental, Enhancement and Temporal. To make things easier, let's group them further by their related God Metal. Because they'll be the most boring, let's ignore the Mental and Temporal metals for a moment and focus on the ones that don't match. To make them work, we need to add an Atium spin on them. For example;

Tin + Atium = Tin enhances senses. Throw on a temporal spin and the obvious result is the ability to see through time. Now, gold and Malatium already allow you to see a person's different possible pasts, but what this allow would do is allow them to see into the actual past. Someone could stand in a room and burn this, then see time begin to rewind (faster burn, faster rewind) around them.

The obvious opposite of this is seeing the future, but Atium already does this more or less. Furthermore, the opposite metal of Tin has nothing to do with seeing. Therefore this opposite doesn't need to exist. Now for adding a Temporal spin on Pewter there's a few ways this could work:

Pewter + Atium = Pewter enhances physical strength, speed, durability and healing. This allow could be used to delay damage to the body. Essentially, wounds disappear, indeed aren't even made. But once the alloy is burned they all return at once, possibly fatally.

I also quite like UllysesSword's suggestion of granting restedness. This ties in with the temporal aspect: Delaying sleep (an aspect related to this physical properties Pewter deals with) for a time.

That's all I've got, but I hope it helps come up with some others.