Varenus

5 hours ago, Karger said:

While the mission might be considered a failure by some it is hardly ideal for Odium.  He deployed a verity of his best forces and all he got out of it was the death of one new candidate for Radiance.  On the other hand his most important targets escaped with valuable intelligence  and a desire for revenge.  None of this would have happened without Shallan pressent and she would not have been their without Renarin's intervention.  Do you think Renarin was exercising some future sight to befuddle Odium's careful plans?

A little off topic, but I’d like to point out that this mission was the focus of Dalinar’s hopes at retaking Alethkar. Winning this round earned Odium control over Dalina’s homeland(not to mention Jezrien’s hiding spot), nullified some of the Radians’ advantage in deactivating an Oathgate, and firmly planted Moash in Odium’s camp(who later killed said Herald). I would hardly say that Odium got nothing for his trouble, but you do have a point in that it could have been much worse.

Back on topic, I wonder how Sja-anat’s treachery plays into your theory.  She was essential in the escape of the remaining members of the mission and she does have a connection to Renarin. I do think that you are correct, that there is something going on beneath the surface.

18 hours ago, TheFoxQR said:

To me, the idea that human spiritwebs on Scadrial were made keeping future Allomancy-Feruchemy in mind makes more sense than something inherent to the actual physical planet that facilitates it. While I agree with the words you put down about Honor-Roshar to an extent, I don't with the idea behind them.

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Shards will begin to fuel magic when they settle on a world. Each Shard can do this differently, though much of the system is restricted by the world itself. Because of this, the Shard is able to directly interact with the users of the magic and provide the needed investiture. Ruin and Preservation's ability to fuel all the Metallic Arts is an example of this.^[2]

This is from the coppermind page on the Shards. Under the category titled Magic Generation. I hope this formats correctly as I am on mobile.

The wiki interprets the WoB you guys discussed like this:

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The types of magics that exist on a world depends on which Shards are present. If Endowment were to move to Scadrial, additional combinations of magics may form.^[84][85] However, Shards did not create magic systems. Ruin and Preservation did not create the Metallic Arts.^[86]Rather, magic is a natural function of the world, a Shard's intent, Realmatic interactions, and sometimes genetics.^[2]

Though magics are related to a Shard, that does not mean that the effect of a magic is in line with a Shard's intent. For example, Allomancy does things like Pushing and Pulling that don't bring to mind "Preserving" things. Rather, a Shard's intent determines how the magic is obtained, not its effect.^[87] In Hemalurgy, the method of gaining magic is spiking and it is inherently destruction, but the effect of the magic actually enhances something else. (This is the more exact, confirmed statement of the Principle of Intent theory).

The other WoB mentioned here is:

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Agate

I can guess two possible options for the kandra.

1. God Sazed endowed the gift of presence on the now mistwraiths.

2. Some of the kandra survived in the cave with the Terrisman and people of the city, along with the small mistwraiths, these are re-born with the spikes they pulled out during the resolution.

I can imagine too that some kandra on assignment may have hidden in the shelters with the rest of humanity.

Brandon Sanderson

The kandra.

Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)

However, there will likely never be any more of them, since Hemalurgy is required to make them. They are now some of the few people who can communicate directly with Sazed, who—like Ruin—can whisper to people most easily when they are connected to him via spikes. With some speculation, you can probably guess what kind of roles the kandra will end up playing in future books.

Kaimipono

On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Brandon Sanderson

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works

So, I would think that there is something inherent to the planet/world that shapes how the Shards’ interact with it and how magic systems form. 

Shards choose to invest in a planet. The Shard’s Intent decides how people access that power. The planet itself determines how that power is made manifest. Note that quote mentions genetics, so I imagine that people might be counted as part of the planet, so you are certainly correct in thinking that people’s thoughts and spiritwebs contribute to how a magic system is formed.  

Consider the planet to be the second filter by which the Shard’s Investiture is molded into a full magic system. The first filter is, of course, the intent of the Shard. Ruin and Preservation had an advantage in that they could alter the second filter. Honor and Cultivation must have had a harder time because it was not their planet. To think of a reason to justify this, consider that:

1)  Remember, in the Cosmere, investiture, matter, and energy are interchangeable. Odium is unable to change text in the same way Ruin did on his planet. This is because Odium did not make Roshar and is unable to manipulate its matter. Odium’s inability to change text implies that when investiture is converted into matter, it remembers which shard it belongs to.

2) Roshar was made of Adonalsium’s investiture and upon his shattering all investiture already in the Cosmere was assigned to a Shard(there is a WoB that says this).

Combining these facts, Roshar and all other Shard Worlds made by Ado must now be made of a jumble of all 16 shard’s essences. Which means that Shards that choose to settle on those planets must, by necessity, be limited in their ability to manipulate the planet as they are unable to change other Shards’ Investiture. By extension, the Shard loses some control over their magic system because they cannot change the second filter by which their investiture it turned into a magic system.

To borrow the analogy of building a house, My interpretation is this:

You are a billionaire who wants to renovate a grand and ancient library. You supply the money(the Shard’s Investiture). You hire an architect to turn your vision of the new library into something beautiful(the Shard’s intent). Then you hire an engineer to make sure the work is done correctly(the Shard World). Lastly, you need permission from the library’s owner to make the changes(not the shard’s own shard world). The only problem is that the architect had a separate idea of how the building should look, the engineer was physically incapable of making all the changes to the building that you wanted, and the owner forbade them form making changes to certain parts of the building. When they finally get finished the building bares little resemblance to your vision.

50 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Stick is eternal and unchanging, everyone else is fair game.

The eternal Stick knows best.

51 minutes ago, Weltall said:

'being the first one on the scene when a Shard is up for grabs'

If Mistborn: Secret History is anything to go by, there does seem to be at least one qualification that needs to be met. 

 That being said, I think Taln does meet that requirement for both Honor and Odium. Besides, Taln is just great.

@Leyrann No, Odium says in that passage that he can't be freed on accident. The person must say the words with the intent of freeing Odium for it to work. I'll post the full quote when I have the time.

Also, which do you think is easier, dealing with Cultivation from Braize with who knows what restrictions or dealing with her while on Roshar and free?

Perhapse I should clarify, when I say free I mean not bound by Honor and Culivation's rules. Not free as in get up and leave the planet/system. So, I agree that he has unfinished business on Roshar, but that is more easily accomplished when he can act at full strength.

@Llarimar I see what you are saying, and I do partially agree, but "Life before Death" need not be about mercy. Sometimes it's about making the best possible choice for life, even if that involves something distasteful. Which, in my mind, seems very Cultivation like. Take the difference between Jasnah's and Kaladin's philosophies for example. Jasnah puts the lives of the innocent humans over the lives of the potentially dangerous parshpeople. So you could say that Jasnah is putting "Life before Death" even though she is proposing something awful and certain to lead to death. So, really, it is up to the interpretation of the one swearing the oath.

Prescript:

My apologies if this Idea has already been put forward by someone else, I checked but probably missed something. Most of what I say is likely common knowledge at this point, but my aim is to show how it is useful to Odium specifically.

What we Know:

• Odium can be freed by someone wielding a large splinter of Honor
• Fused can be revived in the Everstorm 
• Moash's dagger stole something from Jezrien 
• The dagger works like Hemalurgy, but probably isn't 
• Fused are gathering shardblades
• Sja-anat corrupts spren

Theory:

Odium will forge(or else acquire) a new splinter of Honor, give it to one of his minions(or willing participant), and be set free.

With the death of Honor's vessel, Odium has opened a new win condition for himself that he did not have in previous Desolations. This condition was shown in Oathbringer when Dalinar told Odium to simply leave, to which Odium's answer was that he could and would if Dalinar willingly and deliberately wished him to. This is possible, according to Odium, because Dalinar has bonded the Stormfather(who has absorbed some more of Honor's investiture after he shattered). So, I think it is safe to assume that any one possessing a splinter of Honor of equal or greater magnitude to that of the Stormfather could free Odium. The question then becomes: How will Odium obtain such a large amount of Honor's investiture? Fortunately for Odium, smaller pieces of Honor are flying(literally in some cases) left, right, and center.

Most notably among all the things that contain Honor's essence are the Heralds and their Honoblades. These are by far the largest splinters of Honor with the exception of the Stormfather and maybe the Sibling(the Nightwatcher is probably more of a splinter of Cultivation and therefor not as useful). So, I propose that the reason why Odium is killing Heralds is not because he is worried about the Fused getting stuck again, as the Everstorm may or may not allow them to remain on Roashar indefinably, but because he needs their pieces of Honor. 

The process of extracting a Herald's fragment of Honor has then already been made manifest by Moash killing Jezrien with the special dagger. The glowing light in the dagger's gemstone is likely Jezrien's splinter of Honor in this case. Odium is looking for the most pure essence of Honor he can get, so that other intents(like Cultivation's) do not interfere with his plan. To that end, he needs a way to divide the souls/spirit webs of his enemies into their Honor and Cultivation components. Hemalurgy would certainly be useful in this scenario, but Odium needs something with a smaller chance of failure. Thus the dagger is possibly a fabrial wielding the surge of spiritual division. All the benefits of Hemalurgy, but none of the hassle. The smaller pieces of Honor can then be mended by spiritual adhesion or tension if necessary(Dalinar or someone with Dalinar's specific powers may be needed). 

Now Odium needs to kill enough Hearlds to equal the power of the Stormfather, no easy feat. Odium could probably get the majority of them(Nale and Ishar I'm looking at you), but sooner or later the remaining Heralds and our new Radiants will wise up and band together(specifically Ash and Taln). So, Odium needs a backup plan. That plan is the Fused gathering shardbaldes and Sja-anat corrupting living spren. I think this is part of the reason the Fused are occupying places like Celebrant in the cognitive realm. If Odium can't have all the Heralds, he will replace them with all the dead spren and the living spren of the places he is occupying. Thereby proposing a moral dilemma to the forces of Honor: the lives of a few Heralds or the lives of sprenkind.    

I hear Tukar is nice this time of year, Shinovar too...

4 hours ago, I am Witless said:

My guinea pigs are attention hogs, and like eating hay.

My guinea pigs Whitespines are attention eating my hogs, and dislike eating hay this dried shin grass I tried to feed them.

I can't believe it's not butter. 

***** 5/5 stars

Lots of food and evil to destroy.

-Nightblood

Send them all to Sel's cognitive realm and let the Dor deal with them.

Edit: First ever literal interpretation of slamming the door Dor on someone's hopes and dreams. 

@RShara I see what you are saying, and you may have a point. I don't expect acolytes to know everything about their order. However, I don't really think the two situations are comparable. 

The lift acolyte was caught in contradiction of oath. Did he let Gaux, a criminal, go and become a liar while neglecting his duty? Did he slit his throat, keeping his word and his dedication to Nale's plan, but skipping the required authorization thus breaking the law? He was in a catch 22, just like Kaladin in WoR. He didn't engineer that scenario, he acted out of instinct when there was no possible way to diffuse the situation. I don't expect acolytes to completely understand how to avoid these scenarios, especially when they are dropped directly into the center of one. This is why he said:

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"But. . ." the minion said. "I had to do as I threatened . . ."

Most importantly, he was still dealing with confirmed criminals. In your quote he says "their" laws, referring specifically to the Azish(not sure I spelled that right). He still believes that there must be some law he must adhere to in order to execute people.

The Shallan acolyte acted differently. He premeditated his murder, he wasn't caught in a contradiction. Shallan wasn't a confirmed criminal as far as we know. He didn't tell his superiors about Shallan(probably) or ask for their help. He must have know that the highspren and Nale wouldn't approve, which is why I don't think it makes logical sense for him to be acting out of ambition. The only way this makes sense is if Nale and the highspren don't know what an accomplice to murder is, which is laughable considering what happened to Ym. 

It would make much more sense if he was simply a zealot who was sacrificing his future as a skybreaker to kill a radiant. Which is still strange for several reasons, but at least it's somewhat consistent. 

43 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And even he is capable of lapses in his judgment... He can be mistaken.

But Nale didn't know he was making a lapse, he was acting in the way he thought proper. That means low amounts of skybreakers, which means he can't just make anyone and everyone into a skybreaker. His internal logic still holds, even if he is insane and was manipulated by Ishar. Perhaps he doesn't choose the best people every time, but his fourth oath skybreakers are part of the process as well. 

43 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'm not arguing about the stupidity of the act, but that an acolyte might be tempted to do something like that. He might have thought, that he could just accuse Shallan of some crime, that didn't happen, if Nale asked. Stupid? Yes. Unlikely, that an acolyte might try something stupid to impress Nale? Not really

But it's stupidity to the point of disbelief. Do something stupid to Impress Nale? sure. Commit a crime to impress the Herald of Justice? Not likely.

Also: if we need to count on the stupidity of our villains to have the plot make sense, then something is wrong imo.

Really my issue is with Shallan's backstory, not this acolyte. Currently, too many things in her past are "just because" for my tastes. If that makes sense. 

21 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Nale recruited in not so small numbers.

Sure, but was it not Nale's greatest fear that too many Radiants would cause another desolation? So he probably wasn't mass recruiting, and the few he did must not have been chosen at random. He must have been somewhat discerning during the recruitment process, even if not all of them would become full Radiants. 

If this acolyte had any hope of progressing through the ranks of the skybreakers, this was not the way of doing it. Presumably, if he was with the skybreakers long enough to know they kill radiants(long enough to kill even a child), he would know that he needed a legal excuse.

But to each their own.

9 minutes ago, RShara said:

...Yes?  I don't see how that disproves my point?  I'm sure they could have dug up something on Shallan, or gotten the highprince to do something, like happened with Stump.

Not trying to disprove anything, merely adding context. I probably should have added an emoji or something to change the tone of that post, my apologies. 

Imo, It has been shown that there needs to be at least an attempt to administer 'justice' for a skybreaker acolyte to act. Every single one except this one apparently. 

What crime could Shallan possibly have committed at such a young age, in a remote part of the county? Maybe Nale could get the attention of a highprince, but some nameless acolyte? Obviously Nale didn't know about Shallan, or he would have killed her afterwords.

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I get the point you're trying to make, but acolytes are acolytes and eager to impress their master. Some get over-eager in that.

I already outlined why it seems unlikely that the acolyte acted out of ambition...

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I just repeated it as it apparently didn't get across.

 Thanks for that one.

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

Yep.  He actually slit Gawx's throat, and Gawx was a kid.  So a misguided acolyte could've easily decided he needed to kill Shallan, despite having no lawful approval to do so.

Gawx was a thief. Nale's issue was not that he had been killed, but that the proper paperwork had not been filled out and approved yet. I Imagine that this acolyte probably wouldn't have survived Nale's punishment if Gawx was an innocent.  

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Varenus the Skybreaker isn't the one who tried to kill Shallan her mother was. Additionally, he was just an acolyte, so no spren. Meaning he'd likely have never achieved one because of his willingness to incite others to break the law, by the things you mentioned.

He obviously knew enough about Skybreakers though, to realize that a Surgebinder is a problem by their beliefs.

I suppose that makes sense. To clarify, the acolyte didn't just tell Shallan's mother to kill her, he actively participated by holding back Lin. Though that doesn't really change anything.

I'm still confused about one thing however. The acolyte's motivation. There are only two things that make sense to me and neither of them are consistent with what we know:

1) Ambition: The acolytes we see in Edgedancer are practically falling over themselves trying to impress Nale and earn their blades. Perhaps this acolyte was similarly inclined and decided that killing a protoradiant would increase his standing in the eyes of Nale, the other skybreakers, and the highspren. If that is the case, he was pretty incompetent/ignorant. Because (1)he didn't tell anyone where he was or that there was a radiant(so no one can confirm or deny that he actually did it), and (2)it would have broken the law and ruined his chance at gaining a spren/Nale's approval. So ambition probably wasn't his motivation, or he was one of the ten fools. 

2) Devotion: So this acolyte must staunchly believe what the Skyberakers are telling him. He must be so loyal to their cause that he is willing to ruthlessly murder a small child and believes that he must do it quickly because he doesn't bother telling the higher ups(which is weird if he was moderately new/a low standing member). This is strange because he has completely internalized part of the skybreaker's doctrine(killing radiants) while ignoring the other half(following the law). I guess that is not entirely unheard of, but this acolyte didn't seem like the particularly dedicated type considering that he was having an affair while on the job(and I say that in the least judgmental way possible, no judgment here). So even if he was fanatical in his devotion to the skybreakers, there are still things about him that don't make sense. 

Perhaps the answer is simply that the skybreakers are evil/insane, but I would have expected them to be a little more professional about it. 

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

I'm pretty sure, that her mother and her lover, the Skybreaker acolyte, have seen what was happening with Shallan and as such tried to kill her. Her mother definitely knew about the Skybreakers and what they were trying to do.

And what crime did this acolyte pin on child Shallan that gave him the excuse to try and kill her? As far was we know surgebinding/being a radiant has not been outlawed in Shallan's country. Pretty sure killing her would still be illegal even with parental consent. It is not like they could find something incriminating in her past, she was like what? 10?  Why would the acolyte break the skybreaker's one precept to kill Shallan, when Nale himself let Lift go right when he cornered her, and potentially provoke Nale's wrath and/or break his spren bond? Even if Shallan's mother was the one doing the murdering, the acolyte would still be a willing accomplice and thus guilty. Maybe the acolyte decided to quit the skybreakers to be with Shallan's mother, but then why bother killing her in the first place?

I think there is more than enough inconstancy there to warrant more explanation. 

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Not explicitly.  IIRC, the calculations were done disregarding air resistance but rounding "down" from what they would be in a vacuum.  Provided her terminal velocity is greater than the initial velocity of 70 mph (which seems very reasonable, for something thin and bladed like a sword or spear -- not much surface area there), then she hits in less than two seconds no matter what.  So it's something like...I think it was a bit less than 1.4 seconds in a vacuum and a bit less than 2 seconds in a super-duper thick atmosphere.  So 1.5 seemed reasonable.  But maybe a bit more.  Certainly less than 2 seconds, though.

Never mind then, that seems very solid. I'm kind of convinced that your method would work(assuming coins can't reach that height), but it just seems a little too unreliable. Under slightly different circumstances(No Atium, No Bendalloy) I would say that Kal would likely win, but Kel just has so many ways to mitigate the chances of actually getting hit when he has his metals. 

1 hour ago, galendo said:

First, if this were so, then Coinshots would actually be far more destructive from a distance, since they'd have more distance to apply force to their coins, and I seem to recall that not being the case.

Pretty sure the coins accelerate quite drastically while within the allomancer's range. I seem to remember that being said when Vin put some coins on Elend's chest to safely push him away(though it might have been Kelsier and someone else) without pushing the coins through his chest and accidentally killing him. The Coppermind says that:

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they gain quite a bit of speed over time.

Though I imagine that shooting them directly upward would diminish their speed.

1 hour ago, galendo said:

What's the most amount of damage a coin ever did in Mistborn?

Without any sort of enhancement(without duralumin or mist) a coin passes through a guard's mouth and straight out the back of their head in Well of Ascenstion chapter 43 page 530 of the paperback(when Vin and Zane go and storm Cett's keep). If "Back of the head" means skull, that coin was probably moving pretty fast.

In Soviet Roshar, Ghostbloods infiltrate YOU.

In Soviet Roshar, Oaths say YOU.

In Soviet Roshar, Rhythms attune YOU.  

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

As to the bendalloy atium combo... That's not going to work as well as people are proposing. Time is altered for the person inside the bubble, and atium only sees a couple of seconds in the future. For someone inside a bendalloy bubble, with the outside world slowed to near immobility, the atium shadows of someone burning inside would reduce what they see of those outside to uselessness.

Do we know this for certain? If I have missed something then my apologies, but the only thing I found on the subject was this WoB(spolier for length):

I imagine that it would depend on whether or not Atium is an external or internal metal, right? If it's internal then it would probably be using the allomancer's reference frame. If it's external then it could be using the target's reference frame. This WoB seems to suggest that it is external, but I'm not a master at WoB hunting and make of it what you will(spoiler for length):

If this has already been discussed then never mind.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

with the outside world slowed to near immobility

Alternatively: Couldn't they just vary the strength in which they are burning their Bendalloy to make the outside world just barely slower? The most extreme case we saw(the explosion scene) was Wayne flaring his Bendalloy to the absolute max, but allomancers can also decrease the strength of their metals by burning them more lightly. Breeze, Zane, and Spook all demonstrated this with their respective metals, why not Bendalloy as well? Also, this would make your Bendalloy last longer because you wouldn't need to be burning it at full strength.

@galendo If we are giving Kaladin ~30 minutes of stormlight, then lets say that Kelsier has ~15 minutes of basic metals(not 15 total, 15 each) plus 5 minutes of Atium. 5 minutes is only like 2 and a half beads (approximately), not unreasonable. Using some Bendalloy, Kel wouldn't need to be burning his Atium the entire time(assuming the interaction works the way I think it does). Only for a few seconds to understand the trajectory of the blade at a time(lets say ~2 seconds per dodge). Lets say that Kel burns twice as much Bendalloy each time he doges(~4-5 seconds per dodge), a few seconds before he starts burning Atium and a few seconds to move away from the blade. That's 150 doges with only 5 minuets of Atium and Bendalloy to spare(2 and a half minutes to spare). Using your estimation of a throw every ten seconds(180 throws in 30 minutes, likely Kal could throw faster), Kel only needs to dodge 30 more throws. Steel and Iron or Electrum and pewter would likely be enough to survive 5 minutes with no Atium. And that's not mentioning his spare Bendalloy. He would have 10 minutes of his base metals(at worst), with the exception of Bendalloy of course, to fight what is essentially a glorified shardbearer with no healing, speed, or extra strength. Kel can stagger the usage of his metals, while Kal cannot do the same with his abilities.

6 hours ago, galendo said:

Remember that the Blade is only "in the air" for about one and a half seconds.

Sure, but 1.5 seconds doesn't mean much to the guy who can see the future and control time. Even if he messes up a few times, he has still got 2.5 minutes of Bendalloy as a buffer.

Also, did you take into account Syl's terminal velocity before coming up with this figure(You must be using an approximation if you did, because we haven't established what Syl's mass or surface area is)? Or did you use a kinematic equation? If you assumed that Syl would just be accelerating the entire time, then Kel would probably have slightly longer to react than predicted. I can't find what the average terminal velocity of an irl sword/spear is, but the terminal velocity of a baseball is ~ 74 miles per hour, the terminal velocity of a human skydiver is ~134-200(depending on how they are falling) mph, a bullet(30 caliber) ~200 mph, and a bowling ball ~350 mph. So a spear/sword is probably around 120-170 mph? Syl probably isn't moving at 200 mph by the time she lands, though it depends on how Kal throws his weapon. It's not that big of a difference, but it's something. Even if its just 0.5 seconds longer, 2 seconds is plenty of time to set up a speed bubble.

6 hours ago, galendo said:

So five hours is a conservative estimate for how long Kaladin can hang in the air

Kal is going to need a storming in-flight meal if he is up there for 5 hours!

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I personally think that book five will be Gavilar's PoV. All of the Prologues so far have been titled in a similar structure "To Kill" "To Question" "To Weep." 

I think book five will be Gavilar's and be "To Die" 

Brilliant!

Then logically book four's prologue would be "To Answer"? Do we know who's PoV it will be?

3 hours ago, galendo said:

Would a time bubble would give you time to dodge?

If the blade is already in the air, then defiantly. The extra speed is enough to watch an explosion in slow motion(when flared), as demonstrated by Wayne.

3 hours ago, galendo said:

And if the Blade's already within the bubble or hasn't yet left the Radiant's hand, you're burning through your metals for nothing.

You only need to be burning two metals at max. If the blade is in the air, you only need bendalloy assuming you can judge the trajectory well enough to escape. If the blade is still in hand, burn bendalloy then Atium to find out where the blade will be thrown. The extra mental capacity granted by Atium will make calculating the trajectory easy and you will only need to burn each metal for a few seconds at a time. Getting the timing down can be done by realizing that Syl disappears every time Kal wants to throw again. 

If that runs out, start using steel/iron erratically. Kal is too far away to mess with the coins, so just put them everywhere. You could set it up so that you never really have to touch the floor if you put enough coins down.

If, somehow, Kal has still not run out of stormlight, run around with pewter and tin. better than nothing and I'm pretty sure they increase your reaction time a little. According to the coppermind it does:

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Pewter also increases reaction speed

If all else fails, start burning electrum. If your shadow dies suddenly, change direction. In fact, just use bendalloy and electrum and save your Atium. 

But I just don't see Kal's stormlight lasting this long. Realistically he would probably run out somewhere between steel/iron and tin/pewter.

3 hours ago, galendo said:

As for Kaladin hanging in the air, I seem to recall in Oathbringer a scene where he hangs in the air for hours, watching the sun set.

And yet, he runs out of stormlight three times in OB. Once when he is trying to get to his home town, twice in Shadesmar, and a third time during the final battle(Rock has to save him).

Half the time we see Kal use his powers for actual fighting in OB he is either in a highstorm or Dalinar just went super saiyan. I think we need Sigzil to run a few more tests quantifying Kal's powers.  

7 hours ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

Because the gravity lashings alter an object's spiritual connection to their planet, when using a reverse lashing, Kaladin is changing the gravitational pull that they would feel form the planet, and putting it into another object.

I agree, notice how I said that the coin(s) would halt in midair? That wouldn't happen if the planet's gravity was still pulling on the coin(s), the coin(s) would just fall to the ground once the reverse lashing and iron pull stabilized.

8 hours ago, ShardplateJoe III said:

It would be like Kel pushing a handful of coins off of a cliff... and then pulling them back up.

That is assuming that Kal can't multiply the force of his reverse lashing, which is doubtful considering that the reverse lashing(from the ars arcanum):

Quote

is believed to be a specialized version of Basic Lashing

So conceivably he would be able to increase the strength of his reverse lashing just like his basic lashings. By simply activating overlapping reverse lashings or by fueling a single reverse lashing with more stormlight.

Also, Kal would probably need to increase the strength of his reverse lashing in order to effectively block close and mid range coins. Otherwise Kel's coins could, perhaps, just push right through it with minimal change in direction. Which severely diminishes the utility of his reverse lashing in a way that, imo, is unfair for Kal.

2 hours ago, Naurock said:

While I agree with the fact he just needs to get lucky once, I just don't see this working. Kelsier doesn't even need Atium to dodge this. Depending on the height he doesn't even need to push off a coin to dodge.

I agree. If they are fighting in a populated city/town, Kal wouldn't even try it because he would fear hitting an innocent by accident.

The scenario:

Lets say that they both know that their opponent has powers, but are unaware of what those powers are initially. Kal and Kel are both intelligent enough to not needlessly waste their magic reserves and can grasp the other's powers fairly readily after encountering them once. The city they are fighting in has a decent amount of metal, but not an excessive amount. The city is Cosmere aware, 1/5 of the citizens hold small amounts of infused gems, 1/5 have vials of metal, 1/5 have metal coins, 1/5 have small stones for Kal to use, 1/5 have nothing. Each combatant comes to the battle with enough of their respective fuel to last an extended fight. The city is on a planet that has slightly less oxygen than Roshar and slightly stronger gravity, so neither party has the advantage. 

As for weapons & equipment: 

Kaladin will not really need anything other than Syl

I think that giving Kelsier a pair of steel daggers would be the most fair choice. Sure glass/obsidian daggers are traditional, but I'm sure that Kelsier would be able to pinch a steel dagger or two. No aluminum daggers, that would just be too powerful.

On to powers: 

Kaladin is of the third Ideal giving him; his shape-shifting sprenweapon(sprentool?), decent stormlight metabolism/efficiency, his three lashings plus a rudimentary control over pressure systems, and stormlight healing/strength/speed. No plate yet. Lets assume that brain injury is sufficient to drop a radiant (though Shallan survived when shot in the head with a crossbow bolt).

Kelsier knew of only eleven metals before he died. But because Atium is so powerful, lets say that Kelsier has access to the 16 base metals, no Atium, and no God metal alloys. No Feruchemy/compounding! Because we have never seen Kelsier use the new powers, lets say that he is better with them than he is with emotional allomancy, but worse with them than he is with steel/iron. Kel is essentially a mistborn in era 2.

On 12/12/2017 at 6:22 PM, asterion137 said:

Kaladin has a counter to that with his reverse lashings

Another point on this: If Kel is smart, the usefulness of the reverse lashing can be mitigated through the use of some clever manipulation of pushes/pulls. For instance:

1) Kel fires off a blast of coins

2) Kal is ready for them with a Sylshield and has turned his hand behind the shield into a reverse lashing.

3) Coins are pulled toward his hand/shield

4) Kel starts pulling on the coins instead of pushing

5) Kel's pull and Kal's pull cause the coins lurch to a stop in midair

6) Kel, who is still pulling, must be pulled up in Kal's direction. Kel is slingshot directly into Kal's face, just as if the coins were heavier than Kel. The only way this isn't true is if a reverse lashing is weaker than a iron pull, which I doubt. Even if Kal could stop his reverse lashing in time, Kel would just start pushing on the coins again and repeat the process. If Kel has Atium, he would know exactly when to start pushing again.

7) Kal is running out of options. He could switch to Sylblade/spear to defend himself, but potentially give Kel an opening to attack. All Kel has to do in this situation is distract Kal until Kel can pull on the coins, which will strike true, even if he uses a reverse lashing, if Kal is using his sword/spear instead of his shield. He could stick with his shield and hope that he can lash Kel away( in which case Kel can push on the coins to stick to Kal a little longer) before Kel gets inside his shield's guard. He could use a full lashing, but the only thing for Kal to stick Kel onto is himself, not exactly an ideal situation. 

8) Kal is down after a few quick slashes or coin wounds, or he has to doge really quickly. I could see Kel doing this without Atium, but it becomes so much easier with it. If Kel has the 16 base metals, chromium and a little bendalloy would make quick work of Kal.

In the worst case scenario for Kel, he is placing metal closer to Kal or keeping him away from areas where there is metal, which is what he wants. Best case scenario, Kel gets a free way to close the gap between them.

When you reach the end of Hero of Ages and need a drink:

17 hours ago, Carla Bridge Four said:

I say that because I'm dreaming about Kaladin on a Rhysadium... hehe

I was going to ask why he would need a mount when he can fly.....But I answered my own question.