Everstorm Entropy

My crazy, maybe not so crazy theory: Aesudan has been receiving visions from Odium, like Dalinar receives visions from Honor. Aesudan has no idea she's interacting with Odium, and instead thinks she is speaking with the Almighty. But, seeing as it's Odium, the conversations are probably dark and twisting her, leading her to believe that she has angered the Almighty somehow. How this has changed her, we do not know, but it's been notable enough that both Jasnah and Dalinar have been worried into taking action.

We know that Honorblades give the wielder surgebinding of that Herald's Order, however a very inefficient form that drains a "dangerous" amount of stormlight. Theoretically, could Kaladin access the powers of a Lightweaver as well as his Windrunner surgebindings if he wielded Shalash's Honorblade?

Hmm, I won't have access to my copy of WoR until much later tonight. Care to spoil it for me?

I guess for me it's Shallan, but I don't know if over-rated is the right word. A lot of other readers seem equally unimpressed by Shallan. But I guess I'll clarify that what bugs me most about her isn't necessarily her fault; I just can't stand her naivety concerning the world. You can't really blame her for her upbringing, and I understand she's the "Fish out of water" perspective for the reader's benefit; she's seeing a lot of things for the first time, therefore Brandon gets to easily convey information to the reader. It's mostly her interactions that show a lack of care for others. She buys the slaves from Tvlokov, and pays them a wage, but still refers to them as "her slaves" at a few points. Her first interaction with Kaladin, she steals his boots all for the purpose of a joke with Tyn. It might have seemed harmless to her, but as Kaladin points out later, she did it because she simply didn't care about him as a person; he was a play-thing for her entertainment. When she's disguised in Seborial's war-camp, before her first meeting with the Ghostbloods, she's genuinely surprised when people simply don't move out of her way when she's walking towards them, as they normally would have when seeing a Lighteyes. Then she takes out an Emerald sphere to pay for a candy apple, only realizing after everyone was staring at her that she held enough money to pay for 250 apples. It's an ignorance and naivety that just gets under my skin, even if it stems from innocence. Again, all of these traits aren't really Shallan's fault necessarily. She has been terribly sheltered and lived a pampered life in a high society. But she has yet to show me that she's actually a caring and compassionate person. Sure, she does some good things, but usually because she needed something in return. I hope that I grow to like her more in the coming books.

Re-reading Words of Radiance and I'm completely surprised I missed this the first time (though, in honesty, I had no idea what a Shardpool was during my first read). Rock is telling the story of the Horneater Oceans to Bridge 4 when they're out drinking. He describes them as lakes in the mountains and is adamant that they aren't really water, but rather "water above but not underneath," and that it was created by their gods (i.e. the spren). He said that one day he saw a god himself emerge from the water, and that it appeared as a man with an angular face and white hair. Sigzil looks shocked to hear this and is quiet for the rest of the night (basically confirming it was Hoid). Rock says that Hoid asks him what year it was on the Horneater calendar. So, not only is a Shardpool located in the Horneater peaks, but it sounds like Rock was there to witness Hoid emerging from the Shardpool after travel, since he seems to need confirmation on what year it is. It's moments like this that make me glad I'm re-reading the entire Cosmere before Oathbringer comes out!

When you re-read The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Edgedancer before the release of Oathbringer, finish them, and think "Well, I might as well re-read the rest of the Cosmere too..."

I like the way of thinking, and there are some good theories here. I don't know if there is enough to support it just yet. The Oathpact was definitely made between Honor and the Heralds; not Odium. All that we know is that this pact kept (keeps?) Odium bound. Why it required them to be tortured in Damnation between Desolations is still unclear. There are some hints and WoB that imply (but don't confirm) that the Desolations come when the Heralds "break" under torture, hence why the appearance of the Heralds is a sign of the coming Desolation. Also, Talenel (Taln) was the Herald for the Stonewards and was known to be an extremely stubborn man. It's likely that Roshar has gone so long without a Desolation because of his near-unbreakable will and ability to resist torture for so long. My personal prediction is that Odium is pure hatred and needs something to take that hatred out on. Think of a hose that is always filling a pool. The hatred is constantly pouring out from Odium, and the Heralds serve as buckets to try and keep that pool from overflowing for as long as possible. Eventually, however, they relinquish, no longer able to take the torture, and therefore, no longer diverting Odium's hatred. Now that there is nothing to stop the pool from filling up, it eventually overflows and begins to seek other "pools" to fill (i.e. the rest of the Cosmere). Since Roshar is on the neighboring planet next to Braize, it makes sense that they exist as the first line of defense for the Cosmere against Odium and why Honor has persisted in keeping Odium at bay and trapped on Braize.

I wanted to circle back to the notion that Szeth is the most honorable. I've been rereading a lot of Szeth chapters and came across this very telling quote. This is when Szeth realizes Taravangian holds his Oathstone and is shown the king's hospital of death. "But honor prevailed," gives me chills. It says so much about Szeth's loyalty to his own ideals, even if it means his own suffering and the deaths of others. He perceives following the Oathstone as the most honorable thing he could do with his life, and he sticks to that relentlessly.

Yes, I certainly would say Szeth is loyal to an extreme. To me, the end does not justify the means. Slaughtering people and doing other unspeakable things all to uphold the codes of a society that has damned you... that's not my idea of honor at all. But it is Szeth's idea of honor. So, yeah, I'd definitely agree that Honor is always open to interpretation and dependent on that particular person's view. And Szeth certainly does fit within a certain order... Book 3 can't come soon enough.

That is a good point. Honor is an adherence to what is perceived as "right". And no one is more adhered to their own perceived codes than Szeth. Even though everything he is forced to do pains him, he does it because somehow he believes that upholding those codes is the right choice. Honor isn't always a good thing; it very much depends on which codes are being upheld.

You bring up good points. I see a lot of comparing Adolin's actions to our modern society and our own idea that "true" justice goes through the system with proper order and prosecution by a jury and judge. But that system, at least in that form, just doesn't exist on Alethkar. They have a different culture and a completely different political structure. Same that we know in our modern society that slavery is terrible and should be condemned; the idea of owning another human being is despicable. And yet, slaves are common on Alethkar; not just in the form of parshmen, but dark eyed Alethi. So it's not exactly accurate to take Adolin's actions and apply them to our own sense of how justice should be executed. As the Alethi system stands, I don't know if there is any way Sadeas would actually pay for his crimes until Dalinar or the King himself was already dead. And I agree with you that it doesn't make Adolin's killing of Sadeas right. But calling it explicitly wrong also wouldn't be proper.

It does say quite a lot about the Alethi culture. The Blackthorn was the person they want to idolize and remember fondly, while the Dalinar that we know and love is pitied by the Alethi. Being a man of honor and abiding by their own historical codes makes him "weak" in their eyes. In fact, I'd say that if Dalinar didn't still have his reputation as the Blackthorn, he'd be completely ignored by the other high princes and disregarded in any war proceedings. And it ties back into the morality debate of the entire series: Does Dalinar's virtuous life he's living now make up for his horrible wrongdoings as the Blackthorn? Is Szeth really committing all of the murderous acts if he regrets every second of it and even hates himself for it? Is Szeth even really a murderer, or is he simply a tool someone else is using to kill; someone who is taking advantage of his extreme devotion to his Oath stone? Is Shallan forgiven for killing her parents considering the circumstances? Was Jasnah committing a heinous act by killing the thugs in the ally? Is Adolin killing Sadeas really much worse than anything in this last paragraph? That's what I love about the series; there is no black and white to the morality or complexity of the characters. Everything is changing, everyone is broken in some way, and each character has their own driving force behind their actions.

I mean, the title of the topic is "The morality of Adolin's actions." I don't see how discussing philosophy is off topic; much of philosophy is rooted in morality because it's highly decipherable and based on perception on a case by case basis.

Will he though? The Alethi have shown time and time again that they only show interest in justice and morality when it suits them. Getting drunk, being lazy and slovenly, picking fights with slaves and bridgemen, assaulting prostitutes in the street; these are pretty common in the war camps. Even after Sadeas's betrayal of Dalinar and his forces, did he face any justice for his actions? Despite causing the death of thousands of Kholin men and the attempted killing of Dalinar and Adolin, the King's own family? The only "prim and proper" we see from the Alethi is Dalinar and his house attempting to stay true to the Codes (and the irony isn't lost on me that it ends up being Adolin who puts a dagger through Sadeas's face). Will he face consequences for his actions? Probably. But it will be a great hypocrisy given all of the other things the Brightlords have let slide over the years, and will only be done out of vengeance for Sadeas's death (likely spearheaded by his wife). It will be a publicity stunt, not any manner of actual justice for Adolin breaking the law. And to the meat of the question, I answered that Adolin's actions were neither good nor bad. Morality is a shifting muddy scale, even in our own society. To compare it to Earth: Killing is wrong, but we have no problem bombing other countries or sending soldiers to fight in wars. Killing isn't justice, and yet some states in the U.S. still have the death penalty and put it to great use. Are we, as a society, justified in killing men deemed beyond redemption? Is Adolin justified in killing a man who was threatening the entire Kholin family's existence and wouldn't stop until he succeeded? All interesting questions. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer; just different viewpoints.

Welcome to the fold!

I agree with this. I see why people have an issue with what Adolin did. I have my own issues with it. But to suddenly claim he's going to go down a "dark path" into a redemption character arc because of his actions feels a little silly and cliche. Especially in the face of what other characters have done. Dalinar has done far worse things in his youth. Jasnah baited out an attack for the sole purpose of murder. Shallan killed both of her parents. All of these characters had reasons and different justifications for doing what they did. The morality of it all is smudged. And that's what makes it more interesting than just "good character did a bad thing and is now a bad character because of the bad thing." And it seems worth pointing out that the Alethi way is to show strength. A Brightlord getting stabbed by another Brightlord after constant threats and schemes, proving to be a direct danger to their (much bigger and more renown) family? It probably would spark some anger, but likely would get shrugs of indifference from most of the other Brightlords.

You're certainly right; there will be consequences for his actions and it definitely depends on how he chooses to play it out. Does he lie to everyone about it? Does he confide in Shallan or Dalinar with the truth? I'm most interested in finding out about the real world consequences for what he did. I'm not very interested in this sending Adolin spiraling downward into a pit of self-loathing or even more murder. I do think it'll lead to some conflict with Shallan and Kaladin though, considering their newfound Radiant status; I'm sure their opinions of what Adolin did will differ (if they find out).

I also started with the Mistborn trilogy. On a whim, I picked up The Way of Kings about a year later and fell head over heels. Now I can't get enough of the Cosmere and am trying to catch up on all of the works to fill in the gaps. This is what was recommended to me (and what I'm currently working on getting through): Mistborn Trilogy Way of Kings Warbreaker Words of Radiance Elantris Mistborn 2nd Trilogy Arcanum Unbound Whitesand Though I'm sure there are many ways you could go about reading his works, since they're all very enjoyable as standalone stories/trilogies. I'd certainly recommend reading Warbreaker in between WoK and WoR for some really awesome tie-ins.

I love how this topic is almost a year old and still going strong with speculation. Overall, I think we're trying to base characters too heavily on singular traits and so we can fit them into how we want to perceive them. The thing about people (and Sanderson tends to capture this well) is that they're complicated. They're flawed, and they're unpredictable. They make mistakes, they change, and they surprise you with their actions. Yes, Kaladin is hard on himself and brooding, but so much of that changed during WoR. In fact, the point of his arc within the book was that he needed to give up part of his anger and distaste for the Light Eyes and desire for revenge. He needed to overcome those feelings to become a Windrunner. What's to say that Kaladin isn't a very different person next time we meet him in OB? Adolin is brave, confident, and as a whole a genuinely good person. But we saw how even someone such as himself can snap and make a rash decision in killing Sadeas. Will he feel guilty about what he did? Will he justify it? Does what he did make him a bad person and undo a life of doing good? WoB definitely stated that there ARE orders of the KR that would think he was enacting justice by killing Sadeas. Morality is grey and I think people that think Adolin will go down a "dark path" because of what he did are oversimplifying things. We're talking about a character that has already killed hundreds, if not thousands in battles, and is also the son of a man who did some terrible things as the Blackthorn in the past. I don't think the death of one despicable man that was threatening the entire downfall of his family will weigh on him very much. I don't think there is a "dark path" or a "right path". Just different perspectives on how we should act. So what does this mean about the Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin love triangle? Not sure. Shallan has also gone through many changes of her own. I guess I'll give an unpopular opinion and hope that Kaladin sees Loral again and that they get to make up in some capacity. I know its easy to hate her due to the last interaction we see between her and Kal, but we have to remember that she was very young. And as we've established, people can change.

Thanks! And that's fine, I'm not really a cookie fan. I prefer the bread and jam

Hey everyone, First time on the forums and a decently new fan of Sanderson. I read the original Mistborn trilogy about 4 years ago (and desperately need to reread it), and eventually discovered The Stormlight Archives. Now as I patiently await Oathbringer, I'm finally seeing the connections of this whole "Cosmere" thing and have been absorbing information like a crazy person. I'm currently reading and loving Warbringer and plan on picking up Elantris and Edgedancer shortly after! I'm looking forward to taking part in discussions and learning more about the Cosmere.