8bitBob

I'm not saying this is impossible because we have little to go on, but this does not confirm that compounding is a function of resonance. Spoolofwhool makes a good point here. The resonance of Lightweaving creates an entirely new effect with memory enhancement. This is useful in Lightweaving, but it is not directly related to it, and that is actually consistent with the full passage you quoted earlier: In the case of compounding, you're getting exactly what you put in, but you get a lot of it. While you can argue that getting more is an effect, it doesn't exactly sound like something new. The equivalent resonance here could be something like, I dunno, being a double Pewter makes you gain muscle mass faster. Or something. Just an example. This doesn't prove it either way, but I do not think that it's a given that compounding is a function of resonance. Unless Spoolofwhool is right that TLR has no resonance. I have not seen this WoB, and I'm interested too. edit: Forgot to respond to this part: Feruchemy would be considered "Investiture with Identity," yet VenDell thinks it's totally possible for a feruchemist with no Identity to tap another person's keyed metalminds, and we have no reason to think this is incorrect. We only know stealing Breath is impossible in as much as we have not seen someone do it. We also have not seen any Awakener's with the ability to manipulate Identity though.

First off, thanks for the reputation and praise for my last post everyone. I'm not gonna lie, I spent almost four hours on it, so I'm glad to see it was well received. Alright, I'll stop patting myself on the back now. Back to arguing with strangers. Yes, strictly speaking, I extrapolate and theorize based on our understanding, so you could say this, but to suggest I "add something unconfirmed" in the same way is a false equivalence. Note, I was specifically referring to the theory that feruchemy is required to compound and that Identity somehow forms a Spiritual connection to your own metalminds, which is what allows you to compound without feruchemy, yet this same theorized connection is not enough to grant former ferrings access to their metalminds. This "adds something unconfirmed" in the sense that it literally adds a theorized connection and ability to Identity that has not been presented to us thus far. There is a difference. I feel confident that I have convincingly argued why I feel this theory is less likely, but if this rebuttal is because I used the word flimsy and that feels derogatory, then I apologize. That was not my intention, but rather to say that it is less substantiated due to the fact that it invents a solution and has potential holes. This is just opinion, but I don't think of Identity as special in the Cosmere, though characters think stuff like this is, and this is reflected in my theories. We see this with Wax thinking of course no one can tap his metalminds because they're his. This is revealed to simply be a function of Identity though and not that big a deal. Makes me wonder about the mechanics of Breath and Identity: could an Awakener without Identity retrieve another Awakener's Breath? An interesting thought. It's not being discarded, Spiritual connection is just assumed to be Identity here as it matches the description of Identity as stated by VenDell in BoM, as I have said a few times now. It fits into my theory, and I have explained why the word Identity would not have been used pre BoM before. Just to be clear, this is not the same theory I was arguing against in my last post. This is possible and basically the opposite side of the same coin of my proposed theory. I can't really disprove it with the evidence at hand, but it doesn't have the same appealing symmetry with medallions and the manipulation of Identity we've seen so far. I'm not following the logic here. I just said Identity interference as a way of describing how unique Identities prevent Investiture from interacting. We see this with statements 4,5 and 6 of my previous post. While this can prevent interactions between Investiture, I did not consider it a result of different magics interacting. Clarification would be appreciated. (Ah, new posts have clarified this since I started writing.) I see what you're saying here, but Identity is never mentioned in relation to resonances, and compounding and resonances are described pretty differently. Compounding is described as an unexpected specific trick or hack that allows you to change how Investiture from Preservation is utilized, while resonances are described as a sort of natural result of having multiple powers. A relevant BoM passage: Wax's abilities don't interact at all in the way that Feruchemical Investiture shapes Allomatic Investiture during compounding, yet they still interact in some manner to produce a resonance. It's possible that compounding is a dramatic version of resonance possible due to the direct mixing of different Investitures, but that doesn't have to be related to Identity to be explained.

I've been pondering the nature of nicromind tapping since I posted this thread, and the more I think on the matter, the more I am convinced that it's one of the most subtly complex questions I've come across. Full disclosure, I am not here to answer questions or posit theories, but to show how little we actually understand on the subject. @Spoolofwhool has the position that it doesn't make sense for the Investiture to simply "jump out" of the nicromind, and it's an understandable position based on our understanding of metalminds. Thing is, we have plenty of examples in the cosmere of different Invested objects behaving differently. Why is it that gems leak Stormlight on Roshar and eventually go dun while metalminds hold their charge forever? Why does an iron hemalurgical spike leak power over time while an ironmind does not? Why does an awakened object hold breaths without leaking and allow for retrieval, while Lifeless are so "clingy" to their Investiture that you can't retrieve the Breath? Why does Stormlight leak from a Knight Radiant but Breaths are perfectly sealed in an Awakener? If some vessels aren't leaking Investiture, how are they having effects on the outside world? Vin can sense Sazed's metalminds without being able to access them, and highly Invested Awakeners have drastic effects on the world around them. That's not even getting into the really weird stuff. Like, why can't you tap or sense the Investiture in a metalmind until you realise that it is in fact a metalmind? While it could be that accessing nicrominds has to do with DNA and a connection to Harmony, I think the most likely answer is that this is a part of very advanced realmatics that we are nowhere near understanding yet. I realise that this answer is no fun and unsatisfying, but there's just so much we don't know on the subject.

Aaaand I'm back. There's been quite a bit of discussion while I was gone, so attempting to respond to every point seems futile. I'll just try to pick it up from here. Incoming wall of text. I think you're reading into this line a bit too much. We know that simply being of Terris blood does not grant you feruchemical abilities by itself because Wax could not tap the unkeyed goldmind in BoM. From the WoB that The One Who Connects provided, we also know that it won't even help you tap your own metalminds if you lose your feruchemy. Keep in mind, Brandon never says that Miles' Identity is changing when he gets spiked, just that the recipient may be keyed enough to access his minds. A perfectly valid interpretation of this is that while Miles' is lessened by the experience, he's not "less Miles'" so to speak. I agree with Spoolofwhool's interpretation of Identity in relation to getting spiked. They use the analogy of a barcode, but I believe there's an even more compelling example: DNA. Every part of your DNA contains your genetic blueprint. I don't think it's a coincidence that Brandon uses the term Spiritual DNA interchangeably with Spirit Web and Soul. This would jive with what we understand about healing. Lopen can heal his arm back because he never accepted the fact that he was disabled, whereas Kaladin and Kelsier think of their scars as part of who they are. Or, to use a more compelling example, if Kaladin immediately had his Identity (and thus self image, or Soul Ideal) changed when he was cut by the Shardblade, how could he heal himself? Honestly, I think Connection's WoB supports my case fairly well and fits exactly within the theorized mechanics compounding. This makes it clear that you cannot tap your metalminds if your feruchemy is spiked away. No theoretical Identity connection will help you here. Okay, maybe getting spiked changes your Identity and that's why you can't. I disagree with this entirely, seeing as Lopen went years without an arm and it didn't change how he saw himself, but I'll play along for my next point. If getting spiked changes your Identity, why can Miles burn his metalminds after getting spiked? Even more compelling, why can the Coinshot still burn his metalmind after losing a spike? He is completely losing the portion of his sDNA (and thus associated Identity) related to being a ferring, yet we have confirmation that this does not change his Identity enough to prevent him from burning his steelmind. I feel completely confident in assuming that spiking does not automatically change your Identity enough to prevent access to your own metalminds. All this talk of Identity connections, spiking changing Identity and allomancy using Identity to "remember" feruchemy to compound is very theoretical, meaning there's nothing directly supporting it's existence, but rather a potential explanation for information we're lacking. While this is possible, I think the more reasonable answer is the one we understand based on the mechanics we have been told, and the situations which have been confirmed to work. For this reason, I am going to exhaustively explain my theory on the mechanics of compounding in an effort to show how well these disparate pieces fit together to explain it. To start off, rather than speculate, what do we know? The mechanics of compounding as described by Brandon is a function of the mechanics of allomancy. As the allomancer burns the metal, Investiture is pulled from Preservation and filtered through the metal. Feruchemical Investiture present in the metal alters the shape that additional Investiture takes. Relevant WoB: Ferrings who have their feruchemy spiked away cannot access their metalminds. Relevant WoB You can burn a metalmind with allomancy for feruchemical powers even if you are not currently a feruchemist. Relevant WoB: Distinct Identities interfere with metalmind access, whether through compounding or tapping. This is shown through the scene with Vin attempting to burn Sazed's metalminds, and basically everything we know about feruchemy. Two feruchemists can both store attributes in the same metalmind, but they do not interact. Relevant WoB: Unkeyed metalminds can be tapped by anyone with the the power to do so. Spiking someone's feruchemy away, or removing a spike granting feruchemy and Identity, does not change someone's Identity enough to prevent them from compounding their metalminds. Relevant WoB: These are the facts as we understand them. Each of these statements is either confirmed in books or in WoB, and I have yet to see anyone refute them. The reason I feel my theory is so compelling is because it requires nothing outside the scope of these facts to work. Let's quickly run through the steps of performing allomancy according to Brandon: Allomancer ingests steel Allomancer draws Investiture from Preservation Allomancer Investiture is filtered through the metal, which shapes the effect of the magic. Allomancer steelpushes. Everyone else gets jealous. Now let's look at compounding according to WoB: Twinborn ingests their own steelmind Twinborn draws Investiture from Preservation Twinborn Investiture is filtered through the metamind, which is also shaped by the feruchemical Investiture when shaping the magic. Twinborn gets super speed. Everyone else gets even more jealous. Note, this is exactly the same steps as allomancy. At no point is it stated that the twinborn taps the metalmind during this process. Rather, the Investiture just needs to interact with each other to alter how the magic is shaped. I'm not theorizing here, simply stating the facts as we understand them. So let's look at compounding unkeyed metalminds according to my theory: Allomancer ingests an unkeyed steelmind Allomancer draws Investiture from Preservation Allomancer Investiture is filtered through the metamind. Because there is no Identity interference preventing them from mixing, the feruchemical Investiture present in the metalmind also shapes the effect of the magic. Allomancer gets super speed. Everyone goes out to buy medallions because they can't take the jealousy anymore. It's exactly the same. I use the term Identity interference to describe the phenomenon present throughout feruchemy because it seems applicable. We think of metalminds as something belonging to the feruchemist, but we know from statement 5 that multiple feruchemists can store into the same metal without issue because the Investiture just doesn't mix. Metalminds only "belong" to a feruchemist in as much as their unique Identity prevents their Investiture from interacting with other unique Identities, and it's clear that this concept is not unique to compounding. At this point, the theory should be obvious and simple based on what we know: mistings can burn unkeyed metalminds because there is no interference between unique Identities preventing the Investitures from interacting and shaping the magic. Really, it's not that mind blowing or out there when you get right down to it. It doesn't require anything theoretical or unknown to work, and it is not directly contradicted by anything we know. Rather, it is simply a logical extension of the mechanics and rules as we understand them, backed up by confirmed evidence, and the underlying mechanics of it satisfies every case of compounding we have discussed so far. Contrast that with the theory that a connection to your metalminds via Identity is the reason former twinborn can compound, while also being the reason former ferrings can't access their metalminds because getting spiked changes their Identity. The second part contradicts the fact that Miles' can still burn his own goldmind and thus shares an Identity with it, and the first part is predicated on a new ability of Identity which we have no direct evidence of. It feels flimsy because it has potential holes and it is inventing solutions to the problem, rather than applying the mechanics on hand. Without a completely unambiguous confirmation of either theory (or a completely new one) it is impossible to prove a theory correct, but that does not mean they're equally likely.

Like you say, Identity was not an issue in 2009, but this sounds exactly like Identity as described in BoM. This WoB doesn't prove the theory (I doubt any could), it just supports it if you accept my interpretation, which includes that the final line refers to Identity. In essence, you're providing an alternate explanation for why this works, rather than a direct refutation of the theory. As such, I'm forced to view both theories in a vacuum and decide which I feel is more well supported and likely. Unfortunately, it is impossible to be unbiased in this and I won't even pretend to be. The crux of my issue with your theory is that it is predicated on a different interpretation of Spiritual connection to theorize a new type of connection, of which I remain unconvinced. The extent of your argument for it consists of, "But what if it wasn't that?" Yes, it is totally possible that I am incorrect in my interpretation that it refers to Identity, but it's not exactly a compelling argument. By comparison, I'm providing examples from the books with VenDell and Vin, drawing parallels to other confirmed situations in WoB, explaining the theoretical mechanics behind my interpretation and explaining why the word Identity wasn't used as a meta commentary on when the quotes were written. I'm never going to be able to prove I'm right, but I'm making my case. This is not to say that my interpretation is better, or that you're definitely wrong (I'm trying to be at least a little unbiased here), but rather to say that you have not convinced me on this aspect of your theory. Disclaimer: I unreservedly apologize if this section came off as condescending as that was not my intention, I just have a tendency to sound increasingly pretentious as exhaustion sets in. I'll probably stop responding after this post and come back with a fresh perspective and refreshed brain tomorrow. To slightly misuse and thoroughly abuse an old adage, correlation doesn't imply causation. Your interpretation of this line implies that the metalmind can be burned as a direct result of this connection, but an equally valid interpretation is that this correlates with the underlying mechanics of why this works, i.e. Identity under my interpretation. As for the logic puzzle, I'm sorry, but my brain cannot process this at the moment. I stared at it for nearly thirty minutes, but it's now 7am here and I am simply not up to task. Probably does not help that I haven't done this sort of thinking in nigh on five years. If you or someone else could explain this with words, that would be much appreciated. This is the interpretation I'm leaning towards, though I don't really have any evidence to back it up at the moment.

(I see that you have updated your post for clarity now, which I appreciate. I'm going to leave this as is though, so sorry if it seems like it's ignoring what you added. Not trying to do so.) Sorry, I assume the first WoB is for this passage. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am taking this as refutation of my theory that compounding does not require feruchemy (I've been saying ferumancy for so long... For shame!) Thing is, this was actually one of the WoB that gave me the idea. Note that "Having the power of feruchemy" does not necessarily mean being a feruchemist. Power of feruchemy could still refer to simply having access to a metalmind, and at no point does it say that you tap metalminds. Let's look at the exact working: Note the very specific wording. You draw power from the other place, and it passes through the metal, which shapes the power. We know classic allomancy (and other magic systems, like in Elantris) work this way. Compounding is described as the same process, but the feruchemical charge alters how the power is shaped. In every instance of WoB on the subject of compounding I have found, the wording is similar. Bolded and enlarged the most relevant portion. Brandon seems to be very precise with this wording every time it comes up, and he never explicitly says you have to tap the metalmind or be a feruchemist, even in the old ones (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong.) Under this logic of allomancy drawing power through a metalmind, and the metalmind altering the result of that power, it is entirely possible that you do not need anything other than Identity access to compound. This would be a totally plausible explanation for why Miles, the Coinshot/former Steelrunner and vanilla mistings could compound unkeyed metalminds. (I see that you have updated your post for clarity now, which I appreciate. I'm going to leave this as is though, so sorry if it seems like it's ignoring what you added. Not trying to do so.) The reason I'm sort of dismissing the Spiritual connection is because of the timeline of the WoB, and VenDell's explanation of Idenity in BoM. I'll repost it here for convenience: In this quote, VenDell first states that Investiture is keyed to Identity. Then he specifically mentions Spiritual aspect, otherwise known as a soul, which these are also keyed to, all while explaining Identity. He does not explicitly state Spiritual connection, but it's not a stretch to connect them. Here's where the timeline of the WoB comes in. It was from before BoM, and before that point, Brandon played the effects of Identity very close to his chest. So I can totally see him simply saying Spiritual connection rather than Identity and confirming all the fun theories and taking away the impact of Bands of Mourning, which if you recall, he wrote before Shadows of Self, so all this was still in his mind. To me, it would make perfect sense if this Spiritual connection was simply Identity. A theory for sure, but not a crazy one.

Again, this would still ultimately be Identity being the difference between granting an ability or not, which is the definition of an enabler. So far as we understand, the only difference between this situation and an unkeyed metalmind being burned is Identity, and nothing we've learned about ferumancy would suggest that it could have this effect. While not impossible, it's certainly not directly supported by anything discussed so far. Yes, this whole theory is speculation based on a confirmation of a different, but very similar situation, but it is supported by information learned in later books and our current understanding of the related concepts. It is not confirmation that it works, but it is certainly supported and plausible. That's working under the assumption that allo-feru compounding requires tapping, which is not a given. Based on everything we know about allomancy and compounding, it's entirely possible (and likely based on these WoB, in my opinion) that burning a metalmind alters the result of the magic, which is still accomplished with allomancy. This fits in with the WoB metaphor of metals telling the Investiture what to do. This is speculation though.

You're conflating two separate things here: the mechanics of healing and compounding. They may have related components, but they're not the same. Let's use the other example of Steel, which was also confirmed to work, so as to divorce the two. After the spike is removed, it is confirmed that the Coinshot can still burn the metalmind for speed. At this point he completely lacks the ferring sDNA and will not be getting it back, but is still able to use their allomancy for ferumancy. How do you explain this? You're treating Spiritual Identity as some sort of enabler for ferumancy, but it's really more of a doorman choosing who gets in. Having the right Identity does not make the Coinshot a Steelrunner. This is explicit confirmation that you do not require feruchemical powers to burn a metalmind. I do not see how that is not related to the theory at hand.

I believe you are misunderstanding which scene he's talking about. Unless I am wrong, he's referring to the scene wear Vin burns one of Sazed's metalminds and can detect the Investiture, but cannot access it. She burns the metal like any other standard reserve. There's a whole lot of rampant speculating going on here, but I believe you're thinking about this backwards. From what I can tell, the template of how you heal is based on Identity and maybe other Cognitive aspects, while the injury is to the Spirit. Relevant WoB: This tells us that how you heal is based on how you see yourself, which sounds a whole lot like Identity to me, and there are other WoBs that say most Investiture based healing works on similar principals. There's further evidence of this being a Cognitive related issue because Kelsier still has his scars while just being a Cognitive Shadow in Secret History. In addition, we know without a doubt that hemalurgy rips away a piece of your soul when you're spiked, so I don't understand the position that your soul is somehow whole. Is it because you're confusing Kind of Dead, where Kelsier was hanging out, and Definitely Dead, which is where Vin went? We have a WoB on that too: So yeah, being spiked doesn't matter much in the After-Afterlife, but it definitely does in the Before-Afterlife, and I don't think that the After-Afterlife is simply the Spiritual Realm. Sazed would know more about it if that were the case (remember that Perpendicularities merge the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual Realms) and you stay in the Cognitive realm for different times because you're more/less Invested. We're getting into some pretty out there theorizing at this point though, and I feel it's complicating what is actually fairly understood as far as realmatics go. Why would Miles need some hitherto unknown connection to his metalminds to burn them instead of Identity being the connection? Why would the damage be to his Cognitive aspect when it tears off a piece of soul? Why would the soul be undamaged when everything we've learned about hemalurgy is soul related? Why would Miles still have this previously unknown metalmind soul connection if his ferumancy was spiked out? Why can anyone use unkeyed metalminds if there's another connection needed? In an effort to explain why the theory wouldn't work, this raises a whole host of much more difficult to reconcile questions.

I'm not sure I understand your point then. Why would this non power based Connection be more relevant than Identity for Miles? He still shares an Identity with his goldminds.

Relevant BoM passage: Bolded the relevant portions. This passage states that Investiture is keyed to Identity, which is connected to their Spiritual aspect. Identity is clearly considered the determining attribute for connection to one's Spiritual aspect. The reason I mentioned the WoB was pre BoM is not because Brandon didn't understand how it worked, but because he would not explain how it works and spoil all the fun reveals, which is why he didn't mention Identity. VenDell is pretty helpful in explaining it to us here though. Also, I think you guys are misinterpreting Connection, which has to do with external connections to things like people or places. We've seen no indication in the books or anywhere else that I am aware of to say otherwise. I can see why magic could be considered messing with Identity when it tricks the universe into thinking you're from somewhere else and can speak the language, but you're still essentially the same person in that scenario.

Sorry, wasn't really disagreeing with anything you said, just responding to your post as it made me think about how I'd kind of written the ability off in my previous post. In retrospect, this does seem kind of powerful. Makes me really wish had more concrete info on burn rates and such.

While I agree, I've been think it over and it may still have some uses. We don't know how compounding works exactly, so it could be that mistings could burn a metalmind for some time, like regular metal reserves. If that were the case, you could do some pretty interesting things. To take the archetypal example of Steel, you could produce a large quantity of unkeyed metalminds through compounding and distribute them to all of your Coinshots. You've now turned one of the most common mistings into one of the rarest ferrings, and a twinborn to boot. Inefficient? Sure, but undeniably useful, and it does not require rare and expensive Nicrosil. If you want to get even more meta, it could also be used to get around the limitations of how many metalborn powers you can obtain at one time. Southerner medallions are said to be limited to a maximum of three abilities, but if you give them three allomatic abilities, you're effectively giving them six. Assuming a natural Twinborn with two allomatic spikes (max according to Suit) you could get 13/16 of the way to a Fullborn. Disregarding God metals, that is. This is assuming that allomancers burn metalminds like regular metals of course, but I feel like this isn't that unlikely. WoB says that compounding works because burning the metalmind alters what form the magic takes, not how the allomancer burns metals. I'm mostly just kind of throwing this idea out there as it comes to me, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless.

It's not a perfect match, but it does state with certainty that you do not need to be a feruchemist to gain feruchemical abilities with allomancy. Knowing what we do about Identity and unkeyed metalminds post BoM, I don't think it's a stretch to think this theory is pretty plausible. I don't actually believe this form of compounding is that powerful when compared to other abilities we've seen on Scadrial. As was mentioned earlier, probably the most valuable aspect of traditional compounding is creating infinite metalminds, which this cannot do. It also requires multiple feruchemical abilities to unkey the metalminds to begin with, so why not just make medallions at that point? Or maybe a Trueself Twinborn burning other people's metalminds that correspond with their allomancy, which, while powerful, would still be far less powerful than a traditional compounder.

I have answers to this! I theorized the same thing a while back, and there's actually some WoB evidence. This tells us two things. One, you can heal back abilities after being spiked, which is fascinating, but irrelevant. Two, a clear confirmation that an allomancer can burn a metalmind for feruchemical abilities without the sDNA required to do so. Keep in mind, this was before BoM, so he wouldn't just say "Yeah, that would totally work because it's the same Identity," which is another way of saying spiritual connection. It could still turn out that there's some thing we don't know that could make this not work in general, but that's compelling enough to not dismiss it out of hand.

Take this as you will. Pure speculation, but I feel like it would make sense for selective tapping to be the feruchemical equivalent of a savant.

Sorry, to what are you referring to here? Been a while since I read the original trilogy. I'm tempted to shrug and call this a hand wavy way of saying, "No, we haven't figured it out yet," but this could also refer to many things. One of the reasons I think you simply cannot make medallions in the way way I described is because somebody should have tried it. I mean, I'm not smarter than a planet of people combined. This could just be a reference to how they tried processes like that. Just an example. I've gotta head out soon and might not be able to respond for a couple days, so I'm just going to succinctly restate my argument. I realise that you've got the jist of it, but it's kind of spread across a few posts and could be hard for others to follow. My argument is that withholding the final piece of medallion creation in a book that exhaustively explains medallion creation, while giving no indication that this would be an issue does not make sense from a story telling perspective. If this was an issue, but Brandon didn't want to talk about it, why wasn't there a scene where Wax asks Allik about this and he just shrugs, explaining he's not really an expert. Or some foreshadowing from the southerners in the epilogue about how, thank God, they still shouldn't be able to make medallions, or any of the infinite amount of ways that, as a writer, you can indicate to the readers that this will come up in the future in some way while hand waving away readers' concerns. Brandon does this exact thing by having Wax ask about multiple medallions. edit: To tie a neat bow on it: Why is the assumption that, because we don't understand how something works, it cannot work?

Yes, Brandon does this, as I said. When he does this, there is usually an indication that there is something we're missing because the purpose is to foreshadow and fuel speculation. The example I provided was the Ars Arcanum. All of your examples show this too. While I can totally picture Brandon saving a portion of this for later books, I cannot picture him simply explaining 99% of a thing and withholding the last bit with zero indication as some sort of Gotcha for another book. The entire basis of these theories aren't based on something the books have said we're missing, but on something a portion of the readers assume we must be missing, which is not the same thing at all.

From reading the scene, it seems to imply that the device never touched him. Awkwardly worded if that's not the case. This is ultimately unimportant in my argument, but would shut down the idea that the harmonium could be hidden inside. de·vice dəˈvīs/ noun 1. a thing made or adapted for a particular purpose, especially a piece of mechanical or electronic equipment. While device has come to mean machines in our modern times, the original meaning was simply something for a particular purpose, which spikes fit the definition of easily. It's important to remember that they're speaking through magic mumbo jumbo, so device could have translated to any definition of "object with purpose." I'm saying that there is a concrete example of someone using a metalborn power without having the sDNA required to do so, and it is heavily related to Investiture. I'm saying that it is not a stretch to theorize a link between the two after having them so directly compared in story by characters shown to be 100% correct in everything else they said. I'm saying that it makes total sense from from a narrative perspective and the exact reason why it works could be handwaved in later based on in universe mumbo jumbo. I should probably break up that paragraph, as I now realise it is unclear and poorly structured. I was saying that the idea that there is some unknown additional step flies against the structure of how information is being presented to us in story. Throughout the story, we are shown plenty of new metalborn based powers. This is through plenty of scenes of people sitting around theorizing, or explaining, or testing, and they are shown to be 100% correct in the end. When Brandon wanted to explain these things, he just had a character do it with very little ambiguity. Even when incomplete infomation is being shown the reader, there's usually some in universe indication that there's some aspect that we're not getting. You just need to look at the Ars Arcanum definition for this entire quadrant of feruchemical abilities for examples of this. My argument is that to then have a single tiny aspect of medallion creation being withheld with no indication or foreshadowing flies against every way we have been presented information in the book so far, and while it is totally possible for this to still be the case, it would serve no narrative purpose from what I can tell other than delaying our understanding of medallions for another book.

I mean, I can see this theoretically being possible, but it's fairly different from how we see Harmonium being used allomatically. All we see Harmonium do is imitate allomancy as if it was a person performing an action without a constant source of metals (and making Leeching not require touch, but I digress.) The feruchemical equivalent would be a piece of Harmonium that made itself heavier without needing a ironmind, or something. Now, while I admit this could theoretically be possible, we don't really get any indication of this being the case in the story. Allik is very forthright when it comes to explaining how medallions are created, even volunteering information at times like when he says that Excisors are required (I cannot describe how much it bothers me that Wax did not feel the need to ask about this) so it would be strange to see Allik explain exactly how Harmonium works, exactly how medallions work and then somehow withhold this key aspect as some form of subterfuge not foreshadowed in the writing at all. It would just be odd storystelling. As for Nicrosil being the only exception, that is not true. After all, how can anybody burn Lerasium? "Oh, but that's because it's a god metal and is basically concentrated Investiture, of course anyone can use it." Based on the Ars Arcanum, storing Investiture could be considered similar to concentrated Investiture, and it has been said that metals work as a key because they resonate with the magic, or some such thing. What's to say this resonance isn't interacting with the spirit web, or any other reason you could come up with easily? VenDell actually directly invites this comparison: Yes, this is theorizing. Yes, they are most certainly talking about granting abilities. But what if this is also hinting at the nature of nicrosil? The real reason I find the need of a hitherto unknown "seal" preventing the use of nicrosilminds is because it just flies directly against so much narrative structure. We have pages of people theorizing, testing and explaining new concepts and seemingly being correct every time, only for there to be this one aspect everyone missed that is in no way hinted at in the text. I mean, yeah, it could turn out that Allik was secretly trained in counter espionage and did this to subtly protect southerner interests, but why? The Basin already has medallions and you can guarantee they'll crack one open eventually just in case, in which case they'd find the Harmonium. So yeah, that's the extent of my argument. Theoretically possible, but why? As for the creation of medallions itself, mentioned here: I basically argued the same process in this thread, and I've been wondering why it wouldn't work since. For one, Allik says that Excisors are required, and I think it's pretty clear that these are hemalurgical spikes. For one, it's important to remember that Kelsiar taught them all of this and he 100% A Okay with hemalurgy. For two, here's a definition to chew over: ex·cise ikˈsīz/ verb verb: excise; 3rd person present: excises; past tense: excised; past participle: excised; gerund or present participle: excising cut out surgically. "the precision with which surgeons can excise brain tumors" synonyms: cut out/off/away, take out, extract, remove; technicalresect "the tumors were excised" I don't think it's a stretch to link this, Excisors and hemalurgy. Amusingly, excise can also refer to a tax on certain goods, which could be considered a nod to the end-negative nature of hemalurgy. Okay, so let's just pretend Excisors are definitely spikes for now and ask ourselves, why would they be required? Sure, you could just argue that they have no metalborn for those abilities and excisors are required for that medallion, but I have an alternate explanation. From WoB, we know that when storing in nicrosil, you store each ability individually, not "mistborn-ness". I think it's also safe to assume that medallions do not alter your sDNA, and are simply a part of tricking the magic. My theory is that a nicrosil ferring is not simply storing "the ability to access metalminds" but rather "the ability to access nicrosilminds" because that is all their sDNA knows how to do. This would ensure that hemalurgy is still required, because even if a trueself then tapped this mind, it wouldn't help them store Identity investiture. Basically, I'm saying Excisors are hemalurgical spikes, the most common being nicrosil ferring powers, which are spiked into metalborn to change their sDNA and allow them to store other types of abilities. Medallions would then be created by using Identity medallions during the crafting process.

If I'm to be honest and slightly argumentative, I don't feel it's clearly that case at all. I'd be happy to continue discussing it if you want to make a thread on your theory though.

Basically, I'm saying maybe. I know that sounds ridiculous, but you can come up with plenty of in universe reasons why. It could be from scadrian's innate connection to Harmony, or the fact that nearly everyone has some Terris DNA (according to VenDell) that gives them a minute ability, or it seeps into the tiny fractures in people's sDNA and widens from there. Or maybe there really is some additional step to make it usable. What I'm saying is that the WoB does not explicitly state there is another step, and while you can make arguments for or against, it does kind fall into the realm of theorizing outside the scope of the original discussion, that being whether or not you can create medallions with just single ability ferrings.

In your example, Wax cannot access the gold metalmind because he lacks the Investiture needed to do so. This is not a case of there being a "seal" preventing Wax from using it, since Wayne can, but a case of him simply lacking the ability to do so. This is why nicrosil metalminds are used to grant these abilities. In the case of the nicrosil metalmind, the Investiture is readily available inside, but the a "seal" would be preventing you from tapping it in the first place. We know that non ferring can access this Investiture somehow though. Upon rereading the WoB, it's actually really vague and could still be referring to Investiture as the reason why it doesn't work. After all, it could be argued that a "regular nicrosil ferring" does not have the ability to wipe their Identity and thus cannot make a universal medallion, nor do they have the Investiture for gold. Under this logic, the "hack" could still be referring to the process of using borrowed nicrosil metalminds as a source of Investiture. Of course, this doesn't explain why we'll need to dig deeper into it later if we already understood the process. Even then, he could have simply misunderstood the question, or was simply not willing to explicitly detail the process of how it's manufactured. I know this could seem pedantic, but I no longer think this is irrefutable evidence of some additional unknown step in the process. edit: It's possible that I'm thinking of feruchemical nicrosil wrong, and that you're storing the ability to access Investiture rather than Investiture itself as the wording would imply. After all, metalminds are still considered Invested and harder to affect allomatically. This would actually make sense in the context of tricking magic to believe you have Spiritual DNA that you don't actually have. edit2: Looking back, VenDell does specifically refer to Investiture as such: While slightly confusing from a realmatic point of view, it would make more sense when considering medallion mechanics.

I don't think that fully applies here. The metalmind contained an attribute (health) which only Wayne had the right Investiture to access. Not exactly the same situation, from what I understand. edit: Think I found the WoB you mentioned. Correct me if I'm wrong. I stand corrected. I'll put in a mention of also figuring out whatever method unlocks metalminds in the OP.

Interesting. I haven't seen that one, so I look forward to that. I wonder if that means excisors are related to this process and not Hemalurgical spikes as has been theorized.