Hawkido

Ruin only has one power and it really isn't a power granted, but rather used. It is the ability to steal (at a loss) another power, and that stolen power then atrophies into nothing over time. Ruin doesn't care who uses this power as its use always serves Ruin's singular purpose every time it is practiced, ruin. There is both an Ordinal and a Cardinal use of 1 for Ruin. Again both quality and quantity relating to a shard's number.

I count Roshar's magics as 30 as that is what is quoted. There are only 16 viable allomantic metals, (again excluding godmetals) You cannot perform any of the magics of Scandrial without them. On Roshar without one of the 30 bindings you cannot perform any of those magics, regardless of stormlight.

That's the quote that originally had me thinking Odium might be 11, that and Sanderson said it wasn't 10. Perhaps you are right, I'll anote the list as an alternate possibility. And as roots are a pattern then 9 might fit and then the currency could be of Cultivation not Odium then. *edit* Also Roshar has 30 magic systems, I had always though 3X10. But it might also be 9+10+11=30.

Separate true information about someone's religion, without taking into account their thoughts and cultures? Huh... Hellandrin is where the Tears of Edgli grow. How many breaths does it take to reach the first heightening? How about the tenth heightening? 50 and 50,000. Who setup the current system, the only person to reach the 10th heightening, the GodKings are the only others to have followed in achieving the tenth heightening by inheriting the breaths (at least 50,000 breaths were from Vasher, once he retired as the First GodKing). And your Point about TLR actually supports my point. As the Only Fullborn to walk the planet, he was the only person to figure out what was going on. He unfortunately couldn't talk about it as Ruin would overhear, and leaving metal notes were dangerous as his priests might screw up and speak the words or might scribe them on another medium other than metal. Both the GodKing and TLR had ageless quality, instinctive control, and full access to all the investiture available to them. Both were worshipped and both are favored by their shards. Preservation was heartbroken when TLR died, he thought he finally found someone who could persevere. Endowment doesn't care about the someone lasting, only in that they endow someone else with the power, make something else greater than it otherwise would be. These are the Champions of the Shards, what does it matter if the common people do or do not call them gods? what matters is that Brandon leaves these bits to indicate what Ordinal Number each shard has, which is also their Cardinal Number. It is something to look for, something to occupy the readers that are interested in finding these little eggs. It might be a complete waste of time but I find it fun. Also it sounds like Brandon to play with the idea that both the Ordinal and Cardinal number be bound to each shard, and/or bind each shard by the same. Except you kinda forgot, Preservation said 16 was significant so you could know it was of Preservation. It was both holy and significant of Preservation. nice try tho.

He isn't always the stillborn heir. Sometimes he is a replacement because the priests can't get it to work. The third GodKing was a legitimate Heir, the Fourth was not, but the older Sister was legitimate. I am Impressed that you fail to notice that the GodKing does not hold court or hear petitions like the other Gods, because he isn't like the other Gods. I am surprised you failed to noticed that returned happen all the time all over the place... but they are not setup as gods and feed breath to keep them alive and analyzed for any hints about the future or the reason they returned and treated as gods. He isn't given the option to give up his Divine Breath for another. Once a New GodKing is born (either legitimately, or a replacement) the Old GodKing and his Wife if he has one and any female Heirs Legitimately born are sent to the islands to live out their life in luxury for as long as they wish to live. Did you not catch that there were Females heirs? Why would they have a female returned child replacement if only a Male would do? They can have children, but if there is a stillborn or infant returned child they will use it and retire the GodKing and use the replacement instead, because the GodKing is different. So we still have 25 Gods in the Pantheon and 1 GodKing. Think, perhaps consider and maybe reread before you come back to this. Make sure you re-read the annotations on WarBreaker. I also think you are not trying to help... In fact you seem to be doing more to derail this effort, I am not sure why. Theories do not take up space and you do not have to subscribe to them all. How can Honor's Purposes (as Brandon calls them) have anything to do with where the hell he sets his buttocks? There are 30 magic powers on Roshar. We know Odium does not invest in systems, It is presumed to keep himself more powerful when it comes to attacking and splintering other shards. 3X10 = 30. that is why I say cultivation is 3. If you don't know what I am talking about then I have no clue what you mean by your planetism. Where do you get your number? Scadrial is the only planet in the Scadrial system, how do you see 16 being relevant? It didn't exist prior to P&R showing up. We KNOW that Preservation's number is 16. Since there are only 16 allomantic metals metals (excluding the GodMetals and their alloys, (hmmm excluding the GodKing, hmm) 1X16 = 16. No other number can yield that result. You seem Confused... See I say Preservation will always have fireworks in Sixteens... you seem to be saying that his 16 Sparklers will be a different color if he were on a different planet, and using that as your reasoning that Preservation would have a different number of sparklers if he moved. I agree his sparklers would be different on a different planet. NO ONE is arguing with that. I am saying that without another shard's influence Preservation would always be a BASE16 magic system. Just as I say Honor, no matter which planet he went to would have a BASE10 magic system... Cultivation BASE3, in a system with honor and cultivation a total of 30 magic systems. If they moved to a different planet would their magic be of a different quality, sure, but they would be of the same QUANTITY.

also why mention twice that there are 25 returned gods if you are not going to name them, or otherwise make them pertinent to that book's story. It isn't like they were lined up and shot by arrows... but they needed to make sure they brought 25 arrows to the execution... This is how you hide things when writing books. Sure there will be red herrings, and other misinformation meant to throw us off the path. Sanderson said that he hid hints and significance in the books, he only brought the Cosmere more to the front in the last few books he wrote (the major books that is tWoK, Bands of Mourning, and Words of Radiance) Possibly Hero of ages as well. And before anyone says that the shard's ARE omniscient why couldn't Odium find Ambition, since Ambition was #1 on Odium's hitlist.

Roots were used in Mistborn, 2's and 4's dealing with allomantic metals. 100 desolations, 25 godkings. There 3 examples, it IS a pattern... You now bear witness for me, by your own words. As stated repeatedly in warbreaker the God King is DIFFERENT...He is the only returned that was born dead. Each God King is a still born returned. None of the other returned have that quality. Whenever they find another stillborn returned they retire a GodKing. As to the 27 known returned... How many were returned gods? 25. And the God King. and that other returned, was actually the First God King, who retired... so you are saying there are 25 returned gods and a god king which is exactly what I said. Why am I looking for this number system? Because so few are. and the planet number makes Capital ZERO sense as to why it would have a holy significance to the shard holder's magic system, also it is stated that the shard's are not omniscient how would they know they inhabited the 7th planet? Also there are shard's that were splintered before investing in a planet. and some planet's had more than one shard... see? D&D were on one planet, P&R were on one planet... so that means 14 would be the absolute highest number... right?????????? However the order in which they picked up the shards would, and that number would carry forward even if that shard were transferred to another holder. Okay, you clearly need to do more thinking before going back to the planet theory. Get back with me once you come up with another reason why I should give up this quest and join you on the broken path of planetism.

I reread WB, besides those 2 five references, there are also 25 returned gods (not counting the GodKing) and as no god had died in years to grant a request we can make a healthy presumption that 25 is a full pantheon. 5X5= 25. squares and roots are an established pattern when dealing with shard numbers.

Ill reread warbreaker... where did you see the reference to 5? Last time I read through it I wasn't looking for the number significance (5 Scholars?) Perhaps. Taldain, we will have to wait for more GN's to be published, I think there will be 3 total in that series. I am going to assume that D&D are neighbors, just like Ruin (1) and Preservation (16) (when wiewed as a circle 1 and 16 are neighbors).

Shards invest in a system, else Pres and Ruin would not have been able to create a planet. there are other systems where a shard has presence on more than one body. I believe that they can invest heavily in one planet, or even completely in one planet or spread it out more thinly. Other than life you don't see a whole lot of Cultivations power invested on any of the planets other than the Night Watcher. Reread Bands of Mourning... Particularly the parts about identity and investiture... You will see I am right, or at least how I came to those particular conclusions. An Allomancer can go to another Planet and burn the metals on that planet and do allomancy. Hoid burns zinc and brass all the time. "Tell me a story" "No" "Tell me a story" "Okay". LOL. That is a WoB by the way, that Hoid burns metals. as to your last statement, do you not think that preservation had a number? What about Honor? If you don't think that those two have significant numbers that are listed as Holy, once by a Shard directly and once by WoB for the other, then I can't even begin to explain to you. I am here looking for help scanning for info to help pin point the other numbers... if you don't think this is a worth pursuit, then you have said you part and made your point and I respect that. Imma still be lookin tho!

You said ruin's powers on Scadrial are also 16 in number... what is his number, 1? 1 X 16 is 16. all 3 planets originally had life... Odium eliminated MOST but not all life from 2 of them. that isn't Cultivation's fault. Life IS magical. Spren existed on these planets BEFORE any shards arrived. Sanderson hinted it was fragments of Adonalsium that created the original spren. Cultivation and Honor further developed and invested into them. Odium was trapped there thousands of years ago by Honor and Cultivation, Honor died during the springing of the trap which it seems was Cultivation's plan (trapping Odium, probabl not getting Honor Killed in the process). and yes BECAUSE of the trap he was invested enough so now he needs to eliminate all invested life to be freed once again. That is why 2 planets have pretty much been purged. This also seems to be the big background struggle on Roshar, the other shard worlds are trying to prevent Odium being freed, even if it means the continued torment of the people of Roshar. Hoid wants to help, but only if it means Odium gets splintered in the process. If Odium cannot be splintered then Hoid will do what he must to make sure Odium remains trapped, until another shard holder can become powerful enough to splinter Odium. At least one group is of Odium, working to free Odium, I don't know if they realize that in order for Odium to be freed all of his followers will also need to be purged. This also plays into what I believe is happening on Sel. Some being is gathering the fragments of Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion. I believe the entity is a dragon buried in the ground of Sel. I believe it has succeeded at least partially, and I had believed it was the person that Hoid wrote the letter to. I'll quote the letter below. Now I see that unless Hoid is being particularly facetious he is talking to yet another entity that has now come into possession of a shard. As Hoid was present at the original splintering of Adonalsium, and Hoid has spoken to this person before this point but after the original splintering of Adonalsium then it is safe to say he is talking to someone who picked up a shard that was dropped from one of the other original shard holders who have died, or perhaps released it.

This is a quote from Elantris. It references the just how old the name Jaddeth exists. Basically Thousands of years. but in the last 300 yeah the shu-dereth religion has been re-writing the poem to better suit their needs.

Perhaps you need to look more broadly at the situation, it might not be as cut and dried as you are trying to make it: On Ruin and Preservation: 1 X 16 = ? On Roshar, there are only 9 currency gems (Odium Significance?), Life is the power of Cultivation... it only exists on 3 planets. Remember the metals used on Scandrial are no different than any other metals (the God metals are not part of the 16.) the investiture on Scadrial is not in the metals but in the people. On Roshar the investiture is not directly in the people, but in the relationship between the people and the Spren. Odium has not directly invested himself in the system, he has been trapped by something done to him by honor and cultivation, we are not very clear on what that is, Sanderson said it takes Odium an amount of time to recover from splintering a shard, perhaps Cultivation figured out a way to take advantage of this and bound just enough of him to the system to stick him there. Only Honor and Cultivation were fully invested in this system. Odium Spren now exist, I believe this is part of the trap.

I would really love to see her thoughts... She needs to talk to Sazed. Maybe get a fresh perspective to relate to humans once again.

I realize this and just got tired of making sure i typed he/she. I was using the gender indefinate form of he, unfortunately english doesn't support this gendercase. English also doesn't officially support y'all either. Most other languages have a second person collective noun.

What makes you think this is a problem with the theory? A force is trying to consume all the splinters on the planet, to become a triple shard. AMBITION, DEVOTION, and DOMINION were all Splintered, and thus there is no proper side. This isn't a three sided Coin... this is a stew with 3 ingredients, Jaddeth is just killing everyone else who is trying to ladle out some of the stew, permanently. What if Jaddeth has succeeded by now? What if Jaddeth was literally buried underground, like in a cave system? What if Jaddeth was a dragon? What if Jaddeth is now a dragon life form and a triple shard bearer? What if Jaddeth is the person that Hoid was writing to? We know the person Hoid was writing to was a Dragon and is now a Shard Holder.

I mis-remembered, I just knew it was near 10... like right beside it. I think Cultivation's number is 3. How many planets in the Roshar system can support life? 3, however due to odium's influence 2 can only barely support life,

Ambition was wounded, ruptured, and leaking. Ambition didn't flee to Sel looking for aid from D&D, nor did Ambition go there looking for targets to attach, Ambition was wounded, and was looking for a patch. Something to prolong his life and maybe turn an injury into a benefit.

If you have the e-book for Elantris just search Ambition and read the snippits (well google books gives snippits of each instance). Also If Jaddeth is trying to get Devotion and Ambition, and the Elantrians could make more Seons, that would be stealing slivers of devotion, that Jaddeth would need. The hard part about reassembling a shard is getting all the pieces. If Jaddeth IS literally trapped within the earth then Jaddeth might have been the direct and deliberate cause of the Chasm that caused the Reod,

Everyone is thinking Ambition is floating in space. I believe what is left of it is being collected by Jaddeth on Sel, leeching D&D out of the cognitive realm but he doesn't want other humans receiving the investiture, thus the pointed extermination of the genetic group of humans capable of becoming Elantrians. I believe Jaddeth is trying to reassemble the splinters into a new shard. There are just too many references to ambition being accepted as well as devotion. Also what has been happening to all the Seons? Jaddeth has been consuming them, he only keeps enough to allow communications with his priests until it is time to consume them as well, quite possibly along with his priests.

True, it was the worst of the GA Cosmere books, but that being said the little girl was meant to be annoying. Sarene's voice was too old for a 25 year old, but everyone else was spot on, with 3 exceptions, when Uncle K was first cooking and runs off yelling "Merciful Domi!" It was just BAD, they should have used a sound board to to modulate his voice to make it sound as if he was hustling off to tend the food, instead of the actor trying to emulate the effect with his voice, they didn't use the same actor for Hoid's 2 lines in the book, and the laugh at the end by Raoden. I believe that GA has broadened their staff significantly since then, and the Mistborn books are absolute amazing. and The Stormlight books can't really be better. WarBreaker's voicing and accents are great. I was thrilled to hear NightBlood's voice at the end of WoR. It sounded different, more subdued, but we don't know what all effects stormlight has on him. And after reading Edge Dancer I can see that there are wild changes to how Nighblood operates.

I was not clear in my statements, completely my fault... LOL I am bad at posting while away from my materials. Was refering to Ambitions influence on the system... I believe Ambition fled to Sel before dying out. There were 2 shards that got splintered on Sel, Domination and Devotion. The Elantrians arose from the splinters of Dominion, The Shu-Koreth and Shu-Dereth arose from Shu-Keseg, which was Devotion. But there was a split in Shu-Keseg, where a more pure form of Devotion Split into Shu-Koreth, but a corrupted form went to Shu-Dereth. An entity named Jaddeth arose with the ambition to force devotion upon everyone and also has the power to utilize the Dor. Jaddeth wants all possible peoples that can be taken by the Shaod killed so noone else can receive this investiture, save him (or Her? gender wasn't specified). This will allow Jaddeth to finish consuming all of that investiture, then He/she will need to purge the other forms of investiture, to be the sole recipient, of all the investiture, then He/She will be freed (not from the earth of the planet as Jaddeth claims) but from being bound to the planet so Jaddeth can go finish consuming the lost parts of ambition, sprinkled everywhere. Ambition was one of the shards that Odium feared, as Ambition was the one shard that was innately interested in consuming other shards. Harmony was created almost by accident (or Preservation's master plan). Ambition was mentioned 7 times relating to Shu-Dereth. Raoden's Father had devised a new form of governance that was designed to attract ambitious leaders, specifically Financially ambitious leaders, as he was a merchant King. and then there is this little quote

Actually Sanderson commented that Corruption is actually a term describing the mixing shard powers. While you could say the Spren of Roshar are "Corrupted" because of Honor and Cultivation, I would term that Mixing, as it was willful and deliberate cooperation between the two shards (purely my view, not cannon). But Odium's influence is unwanted and probably accidental on Odium's part as that seems to be what anchored him to the system. Perhaps that is the "Trap" that Honor and Cultivation planned, make the spren so influencable that they will leech investiture from another shard when they try to interfere, and then pull enough investiture that they become bound to the system, and unable to pull away without killing all invested entities, thus returning the investiture.

I always thought the Numbers were the order in which the shards were picked up or some other important indicator. I haven't seen enough of the other shards to find a recurring number when mentioning them, but will be re-reading the books shortly with that in mind. Honor being 10 and preservation being 16 is obvious, and there is one specific and pointed mention about Odium having 11 as a significant number, but there have also been hints by Brandon of "not ten" unmade and 9 voidbindings, plus a WoB about the Void "Heralds" not exactly matching up with the Honor Heralds and about them not having the exact same number. Last re-read I got distracted by the story and forgot to keep my eyes and ears out for Numbers... There have been disputes with this theory due to a competing theory (Posted by Yata, further down in the thread) that the powers are based upon planets as there is a WoB to that effect. But I disagree with the extent that they read into that WoB. If Autonomy had been on a water world there would still be 8 professions, and 8 levels of Watermastery, not some other number, the elements of the magic system would change but not the quantity. If two shards dwell in the same system, they will mathematically react and cause a mathematical function to occur between their shard numbers (add, subtract, divide, multiply, square, or root). Take Scandrial for example, two shards 16 and 1, three magic systems are present, allomancy, hemalurgy, and feruchemy. two have 16 powers, hemalurgy WAS believed to have 16 powers, but has now been confirmed to have only 1, the power to re-appropriate another shards power at a loss (either steal only one power and lose the rest, or steal the only power they have, but either way the stolen power atrophies over time and Ruin/Harmony cannot restrict who can use this power as using it fills his sole purpose: atrophy, loss, ruin) so three systems, Preservation's Allomancy with 16 powers, Ruin's Hemalurgy with one power and the combined power of Feruchemy which has 16 X 1 powers... 16. we only have two other planets inhabited by more than one shard and Sel's shards have been splintered and stuffed into the cognitive realm thus very difficult to tell what is going on there, I also believe that some of Ambition's splintered shard's powers ended up on Sel as well (do a word search for Ambition in Elantris, then read those passages), and finally Roshar, two shards remain unsplintered, one (Honor) is splintered but Odium was not able to deal with it in the usual way (stuffing it into the Cognitive Realm) and it had invested in that system such that its structure still persists. So 10 surge bindings, 10 Heralds. But we have a WoB that there are/will-be-shown-to-be 30 magic systems on Roshar. So, how do we get 30 magic systems? if Odium is 9 and Cultivation is 11 the 9+10+11=30, but that is if Brandon means the whole system of Roshar. If he just means the planet of Roshar and is talking about in the future, then that means that Odium will (as we suspect) come directly to Roshar. Brandon has stated the the surges granted to a surge binder come with an added boon. Each unique and related to the type of surge binder, Shallan's drawing from memory was referenced. I believe this is how Brandon is doing Cultivation's influence upon Honor's magic system. But where is Cultivations number, and Cultivation's magic system? Her magic system (the old Magic) has only been alluded to so far with few examples. but we do have the story near the end of Way of Kings that seems to indicate Cultivation took 10 stones to her dying lover and harvested his seed to create 10 people (I think this is an in-book corruption of the story and it should be 10 peoples or nations), but her name in the story is Parasaphi (suprisingly similar to both Parshendi or Parap-shenesh-idi, which is Parshendi when written in glyphs) Which seems a tenious hint that the parshendi existed on Roshar prior to Honor's nations. 10+1=11. 11 nations of Sapient Humans on one planet, and Life, sapient life, seems to be Cultivation's power. I wonder how many non-human sapient lifeforms there are on Roshar? We have about half a dozen examples so far. **UPDATED LIST WITH CORRECTIONS AND ADDITIONS, ALSO EXPANDED AND EXPLAINED THE THEORY MORE**

I seem to remember a reference somewhere that White-Red Parshendi used to be more common but are quite rare now, they are mostly Black-Red now. I haven't seen alot of discussion about this, have I just missed these discussions as I got into the Cosmere so late?