Hawkido

While I can almost see what you and @Calderis are trying to say, but not quite. Ruin's power will be a mirror to any power out there... not quite as bright (there is a loss) and somehow inverted, but otherwise a reflection, You won't be able to go to Nalthis and spike Steel pushing out of someone, because there are no CoinShots there (barring immigrants) and if there were you WOULD need a metal spike to steal the power as you are stealing an Allomantic ability. Brandon stated that he started running out of ways to track stealing different abilities with the 16 metals, he had to switch to placement as well and allomantic metal type. This limitation alone points toward Brandon using different materials in different spheres of influence. it fits Ruin, and it makes sense. The Quote from Brandon has a very interesting bit of Grammar in it. Notice that Hemalurgy's Creation is an on-going process. And Brandon is right, very few people are looking at this from this perspective. I prefer my way of looking at this, as it is not the "Obvious Joke" as Hoid would put it. Novelty, doing not what is expected. Flying is not defying gravity, as many have believed, but actually obeying gravity on a deeper more thoroughly understood level. Brandon has been very careful not to box himself in and say that hemalurgy can only use Metal spikes. Very careful indeed. He has shared how difficult it was just getting Allomancy and Feruchemy plus Koloss and Kandra in the spike charts, as each sense, and ability stolen would require a different combination of metal used and placement on the body. Hemalurgy: not quite as bright and somehow inverted. Probably describes me pretty good as well, but a differing viewpoint is always needed, but rarely wanted. Actually they are inverted in function as well. These metals should be on a different chart that is a reflection of the allomantic metals chart. Atium alloys reflect/invert abilities, Lerasium alloys grant abilities. Gold shows your past alternatives and Malatium shows you someone else's past alternatives. Atium shows you what someone else is going to do, and Electrum shows someone else what you could do. Again this is what ruin does, inverting and reflecting. We will begin to see this inversion on other planets once Hemalurgy begins playing there. We might be seeing it already. And it might be stated that the above is Allomancy not hemalurgy... yeah but it is allomancy using Ruin's GodMetal. So It will take on the characteristics of Ruin's power. Ruin's significant number is 1. Preservation's Significant number is 16. Ruin's god metal yields 16 reflected Allomantic powers when alloyed and 1 single power by itself, Steals 16 Allomantic powers, and steals 16 Feruchemy powers, and allows 1 thing when stored in it we don't know about atium-alloyed metalminds. If you keep breaking down an integer you will end up with 1, which is the only number that would make sense for the shard whose purpose is to break things down. @Spoolofwhool Brandon Stated that stealing human attributes from humans was actually stealing Preservations power that he invest in the humans during creation.

That is a good WoB. I haven't seen that one before, there are a bunch and finding them all is tough. That A, F, and H were a product of the Shards and the planet reacting to each other. But I still hold that Hemalurgy doesn't have a focus other than Loss. That is what is required (repeatedly stated over and over every time a Hemalurgic artifact is created) there must be loss. The fact it is using a metal is (as I see it) because it is stealing a power that uses a metal as a focus. However, that last is what I am focusing on. It shouldn't be that hard to find an exclusive statement that Hemalurgy requires a metal, but the exclusive statement is not there. *edit* Well all of the minutia of the hemalurgy aside. Back to the discussion of other uses of Hemalurgy: on Nalthis, forced awakening someone via hemalurgic process would be one and it would be a tactic that Ruin's Nature would approve of. Roshar and Sel have already been discussed. Other purposes for Hemalurgy? Things to be stolen... Perfect Pitch? I guess one hemalurgic process per heightening, can you skip a heightening, cherry picking just the heightenings you want or would you have to build up, as it seems most everyone would just go for the tenth.

Could Hemalurgy be used prior to Scandrial being created by Ruin and Preservation? The answer is yes. Hoid can burn the Brass and Zinc of Roshar, the Metals are not the investiture, it is just a focus. Allomantic metals are the focus of Allomancy, we all agree to that, Feruchemy also uses Allomantic Metals, as it is a blend of Hemalurgy and Allomancy. Hemalurgy uses Allomantic metals, but can it use other mediums (non-Allomantic Metals?) Vasher can burn stormlight instead of Breaths, Night Blood can consume all forms of Investiture. But Vasher is the better example, one form of investiture can use a different focus when in a different sphere of influence. We just haven't seen how Hemalurgy works in a different sphere of influence that we know, so many are looking for Spikes and earrings, but nothing else. Ruin turns a force against, well not itself exactly, perhaps I will say "its environment". If Vasher can burn stormlight he draws from gems instead of Breath given by people (the weeping would kill him if not for gems), then Hemalurgy COULD use a different focus when on a different planet. Plus Brandon said that hemalurgy would behave wildly different on other planets (is this a hint about not-metal spikes?). All you need is knowledge and Intent (Notice that Brandon DID NOT SAY "and Spikes of metal"). Lessie's spike did not use an Allomantic metal. and all allomantic metals are known (Save god metals, which all shards may not produce metals, Edglinium has a nice ring to it tho) So Far all of the evidence that Hemalurgy uses Metals is Inclusive, not Exclusive (Metals can be used, can anything else?) The Evidence we have does not Exclude this possibility. Planets have a focus (a gateway for the power of investiture to traverse), but shards do not, as Vin Directly Fueled Elend's Allomancy and as Preservation can not create, where did the metals Elend burnt come from? If Preservation does not need metals for his power to be used by those the shard wishes, and Ruin cannot stop those from using his power, so long as they are "Ruining", then why do you think metals are Exclusively "Required" for Hemalurgy. Alot of this seems to be because of a theory that the planets are intrinsic to the shards powers. If they were, how was Scandrial created? The Shards do not need focuses. Hemalurgy can use any focus that another Shard uses as Ruin has no filter, no discrimination. Rich, poor, light-eyes, dark-eyes, the mighty works of man, the humblest farmer's field, Scaa, or Nobleman. All can fall to Ruin at anytime, and all will eventually. There is too much ink on the paper in the books that support this being a possibility (not a certainty, a possibility), to just sit back and say "Nope it is impossible" This is the nature of Ruin as I see it, Ruin can use any of the shards powers via any of the focuses on any of the planets, so long as it is at a loss (That is Ruin's Focus). I can break a Vase with a Rock, a Hammer, or a Stick. I can wear it away with abrading Sand, water, or Air. You said I am confusing a Natural Process with a shard's power... How does Brandon describe the Shards, both in the Cosmere and in his WoBs? Shards are described as Forces of their Nature. How do you kill hatred? The Natural Process of all things taking the path of Atrophy towards the destination of Entropy is the purpose of Ruin. It happens everywhere, you say that makes it irrelevant to this discussion, but I claim the opposite, it is proof that Ruins power is available everywhere, and with the Knowledge and Intent you too can harness this power to make your neighborhood less than it was before. I understand you see it as Ruin being very much like Preservation (similar but diametric opposites) and being on the same planet they would share so much more. Ruin's Focus is loss, he can have no other focus, it would go against his nature.. (Yes, I know, Brandon said Ruin is more an opposite match for Cultivation. Growth and Decay.)

But Ruin (Atrophy) happens everywhere, thus anyone can use it. Else no one would die and rot. Stars would not explode.

Hemalurgy is its own magic system. Its sole focus is hijacking a magic system at a loss. Allomancy uses metals, therefore hemalurgy would use metals to steal allomantic powers, Feruchemy is a blend of the 2 shard's powers, and as such uses metals. Feruchemy can "Steal" powers but it is not a messy (Losey?) process but it HAS to use metals to do so. The only way we have seen it used is via spikes. But as stated by @Cowmanthethird questions about whether wood, stone, gems, etc... can be used to spike have all been flatly RAFO'd. While you would be correct to say that is not a confirmation, if the answer were no, there wouldn't be a lot of reason to RAFO it. Perhaps Brandon hasn't decided how it will be used, Creative Process and all, or we have already seen examples, and not realized it, and he doesn't want to reveal too much. If Ruin hadn't paired up with Preservation, would you assume metals would be intrinsic? If anyone, anywhere, who understands hemalurgy, can use hemalurgy to steal investiture (so long as it is at a loss) without being invested in by Ruin, why limit the scope of the power based solely on the observation of "This is the only way we have seen it used." This doesn't mean that you are wrong, and people (like me) who have a more open view on the capability of hemalurgy, acknowledge that the only known example of Hemalurgy being used involves using Metal, does not mean we are wrong. It just means we are not going to limit an unknown when we only have inclusive limits not exclusive limits. *EDIT* @Calderis Ahh I see where you are comming from. If I viewed Hemalurgy in that fashion, I might hold to the same conclusion. But from the start I always viewed Hemalurgy as a completely seperate power, not related at all to Allomancy. the only power that is related is Feruchemy as it is the blend power.

While spiking was the method for Hemalurgy on a planet that uses metal as a focus, I am in the camp that thinks it would be different on a planet with a different focus. However I still think it would involve blood. So would Hemalurgy on Nalthis be via Tattoos (Tears of Edgli make Dye, dye plus blood equals tattoo)? Breaths seem to be too easily transferrable, other than perhaps using hemalurgy to somehow steal the breaths, but as the breath of a normal person doesn't expire, I would assume that hemalurgy would instead forceably convert someone into an awakened form of themself subject to command phrases, therefor "Ruining" them and leading to atrophy. thus you can awaken something without having the requisite breaths by stealing the inherent breath of the host in the process. But that would mean that a drab could not be taken in this way. Questions and looney theories are why I am here.

that is why i initially used the word feedback loop. The Definition of Honor does not imply that it inspires honor in others. It is not an intrinsic attribute in Honor, Preservation, Ruin, etc... to project its attribute upon another, however Odium, is both the transmitter and the receiver of its primary attribute (hatred). And Brandon is quoted as stating that both apply to Odium the Shard. If Love is one of the shards then it would MOST likely do the same, Love and Be Loved. Someone Might Honor you because you are Honorable, but that won't make them Honorable.

@The One Who Connects Actually there are several quotes I'm trying to find them all. I have begun to notice that Brandon paints with shadow as much as with color. Much like looking for asteroids, you don't always look for what you can see but rather what you cannot see but should be able to. There are a few more quotes but can't seem to find them right now... *SIGH* finding quotes on the spot is sometimes difficult. Rayse is especially deadly because his shard is "frightening and terrible" and because he is "loathsome, crafty, and dangerous" not because of any special power, but the power to both be hate and cause hate in a loop between you and your target, could cause the target shard holder to begin losing affinity with their shard, thus loosening their grip and making it easier to overwhelm them. Feedback is a form of resonance. If I hate you and I make you hate me and it is a vicious cycle that either weakens you or strengthens me (either way shifts the power balance in my favor) then I win. Einstein is reported to have said "Compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe". If he said that, I believe he was talking about gravity, but it would apply here as well.

I agree with the other points you made concerning this, and it definitely makes a difference... but Odium took out 2 shards at once (D&D), just how invested were D&D? Can it even be quantified in a way that could be equivocated from one shard to another? Such as, 40% invested for Autonomy, would that weaken him/her vs. 40% invested Cultivation? But I digress, had to delete alot of what I had written, it was just blather. Back on the topic of my question: Brandon said that there is something more that gives Odium an edge. Nothing makes someone hate you more than hating them back. And resonance is a thing on Roshar. 2 hours ago, Djarskublar said: Maybe you could get a multi-spike by using something like an exploding caltrop... if that makes any sense. Surgically insert an Atium ball into a mistborn's heart, spikes extend from the ball and hit a bunch of bind points, extract the spike from the now dead person, and surgically insert it into the recipient. I'm not sure how you would get the spike to be one piece of metal and still spike properly, but... maybe? Lol Atium Iron Maiden instead? Would be easier from the outside and could make it all of one huge piece of Atium, if you could get a flexible hinge. Of course moving around in it might be problematic. Mental image makes be chuckle. Phenomenal cosmic power! Teeny weeny living space.

Okay a question for Brandon if someone gets the opportunity and willingness to ask as I only seem to hear about the Q&A's after they happen, LOL. Is the Reason that Odium seems more powerful than the other shards because he draws power/strength from hatred, both the hatred he feels and the hatred he inspires others to feel toward him. As Odium is both that which Hates and that which draws Hatred upon it. Sort of a feedback loop. Much like a microphone getting closer to a speaker, it creates a resonance.

Szeth restores the shard of Honor and kills Odium and takes it up as well and becomes Justice. Thinking "What the heck" he tries to strike up a romance with Cultivation, but she declines with the puzzling statement "I'm interested in plants, but not Just Plants."

A question I would like to ask Mr. Sanderson: If the GhostBloods had their powerbase in a different system would their tattoo be different? Example: if they had originated on Roshar, would the tattoo be one diamond and two interconnected diamonds or possibly three separate diamonds?

@Aaronator17 Yeah @The One Who Connects I believe is trying to get a different discussion started on a new thread, where the solid facts about shards are collected, then we can post opinions, wild speculation, and theories, and viewpoints on it. Thread hijackery wasn't my intent But the subject was Kel acquiring Ambition, and I had a theory (however thin and possibly ill conceived) as to where Ambition is, and it is the only theory other than Ambition is in space/star so fugeddaboudit. Sorry that the debate about my theory got everywhere. So, to get back on track, I do support the idea that Kel will acquire Ambition, where ever it might be. He read the Ire book about the Adonalsium, the shards, and the cosmere and learned how the attunement device worked, even though he said he didn't understand most of it. But he has had a great deal of time to study and learn, and he has met and interacted with two "rival" (I air quoted that as the true nature of their relationship is unknown, but definately "not cooperative") Scholarly Organizations that are interplanetary (if not in makeup, then in scope) I don't know how much, if any, Harmony has helped/would help Kel. But he has enough resources available to him to finish the job. *edit* in the future I will try to deflect off-topic debate unrelated to the thread to another thread or to another medium as many people don't enjoy the clashing of minds.

@The One Who Connects it was on Nov 29th, 2014. I do realize that Odium has killed another shard, there are quite a few un accounted for shards out there. I noticed that they do not have "Fortune" on their list as that shard was mentioned in the Secret Histories by the Ire. Fortune, doesn't sound like Trell. and either Fortune is splintered and contained, or there are some very special rules about who can draw upon his powers (like a genie's lamp, 3 wishes, then poof) and the Ire comment: also in re-reading Secret Histories I believe I have figured out what Nahz's knife does. It Grants connection, although this power seems to originate from a different shard (as the blade does not glow even though it appears to be metal). I don't know if anyone else has a good theory as to how Kel learns new languages in seconds Or learns to read Aons in just a few page flips when it take Natives of Sel years of practice. Everything I have seen has been RAFOd, and the knife is confirmed "special" by a booksigning WoB. However, I am game to your plan... do you have any particular place you wish to look? I would suggest first developing a list and only place firm fact in it... like Ambition has been splintered, but the circumstances are unknown at this time, but Ambition was mortally wounded in an interplanetary battle in Threnody with Odium. in which Ambition managed to flee, but chunks of Ambition were ripped out in the Threnody system. Odium had Ambition as Number 1 on his hit list, but Dominion and Domination were actually splintered by Odium first. We are not sure if Odium and Ambition battled before D&D were splintered, as the battle between Odium and Ambition was listed to be "very soon" after Adonalsium was shattered. Do you see any corrections or additions to this list? Similar information should also be collected into this list. And I am not familiar with adding content to the Coppermind but you might be... how would we go about adding "Fortune" to their list. Here is your statement, I shall bold a few of your words. and now I shall quote Words of Radiance dealing with statistical likelihood and rate of occurrence. I will tag @Yata as well as he also seems to equate unlikly as impossible. Never assume that what is unlikely to happen, never will happen. you will live many thousands of days. The likelihood of you dying on one of them is a very low percentage. The likelihood of you living forever is zero however. This is where simple views of statistics starts to break down. I am making a prediction about a subject that we have little information about. It is likely that I will be wrong on some of my assumptions. But it is certain that I will be wrong on all of them if I do not even try to figure it out. I'll take my chances. Best of luck to you, I hope you find happiness where ever you post!

That isn't what the WoB says. What it says is that Threnody has a magic system that is not based upon a shard (as the system doesn't have a shard, but it does a a few chunks of Ambition). But the people coming back as a CS is science to them, not magic. Nahz says there are Rites and Rituals to perform to make it happen, but it also can happen naturally. My belief is, if you are a strongly Ambitious person like Silence's Mother, you will come back as a CS. You also have to take into account that Brandon stopped himself, Either he was going to say something spoilery, or something that was incorrect. So he changed the question so as to avoid either the spoiler or the incorrect statement.

@strumienpola I will introduce you to my method for the word search, as you seem unable to differentiate between my research and my theories, and you are so unmotivated to do the search and would rather sit back and sling fallacies at people (you shouldn't do that, it is rude): #1 Search for the word Ambition in all the books. #2 Eliminate all negative forms of the word i.e. unambitious, Not ambitious enough, Could have been more ambitious (which implies unambitious) #3 Read each passage to determine if the word is just used descriptively. While this is a very subjective process, I made sure to mention the occurrences in all the books that were not clearly descriptive in nature. Truth in disclosure. #4 Since we are looking for Ambition, we start focusing on Ambition as a Noun, Indicating Ambition's nature or purpose. #5 look to see if there are any statements equating the use of the word to to another shard's word used in the same manner. We find one occurrence, #6 Cross reference that occurrence with the indicated subject and you find more hits on Ambition and in the same vein as the others. Here is a list of the research on Ambition: Let us search for Devotion in all the books and see what we find: @Yata once again has turned an ambiguous quote into something definitive, At no time is it stated that Odium actually Splintered Ambition directly, the Statement that Ambition was splintered elsewhere was done in the passive voice. So, while it is possible, it has not been stated that it is so, and when Kriss mentions it she omits any sense of certainty that Odium HAS splintered another shard, she does specifically list 3 (D&D and Honor) two he shoved in the CR. One he did not. So let us look at another shard that has been splinter and not shoved into the CR like D&D, so here is Honor: *edit* I wanted those lists to start collapsed... hmmm I guess If I had used a spoiler tag?

Do you mean there would be something other than "Evil" that is consuming the largest continent on the planet? Because there is that. And also the fact that many people get trapped as a CS when they die. Which is another of my reasons for shipping Kel/Ambition. @Aaronator17 I think that is a pretty good sum of the things discussed. Just add in Ambition's drive to keep going, not even letting death stop him and you get the reason for the CSs on Threnody. Kel's drive to keep going even in death and you get a link attuning Kel to Ambition. The WoB said there is a Shard in Space but it didn't say it was dead. And the Essay on Threnody said that the Ambition battle did occur in space between the planets of threnody but it said Ambition Fled and was splintered elsewhere. My thoughts is that Ambition fled, and tried to hide Yoda Style on Degoba, er I mean Sel, masking his power by hiding by a dead sithlord, doh, I mean Dominion.

Yup.. there is your source right there... and you are correct... He did say D&D were the source of the Dor I don't remember ever once contradicting that, yet you keep bringing it up. I am talking about what he hid, not what he unhid. The things right up there in those quotes from him where he says "I don't want to spoil the future books." Those are the things I am looking for because he said he hid them so we could go look for them. I am looking for the answers to questions he would RAFO. The Questions that he will just answer, while informative, are not much fun. Very soon after the shattering Odium went after Ambition, wounded him/her but Ambition got away and fled, Ambition was later splintered (we do not have information who splintered him/her). Odium searched for Ambition, but the first two shards he did splinter were D&D. We do not know when or where Ambition was splintered only that he/she was splintered after D&D, He could have been splintered immediately after D&D, Ambition could have bled out passively with no final coup degrace, but Ambition would have died trying to stay alive. Patching or repairing the shard would require power, ambition would not trust another shard and might try to hide where Odium just searched and did murder. I don't believe Odium did finish off Ambition, as he tends to stuff them into the CR. Ambition would have hidden him/herself to give him time to find a way to repair the damage and heal. He/she would have tried to contain the spill of investiture so as to not give away his location. So he would have hid near a power that would mask his investiture. Ambition the Desire for More would had hidden under the Desire for Control, because who would notice if the Desire for Control slowly turned into the Desire for More Control. I do not see the word ONLY in that quote. So, YES, you are correct, I am Ignoring your points which do not match the facts. The Only thing being implied here is the word ONLY by the Forum Member Yata. If I said you have seen 4 cats in your life, but you had actually seen 8 cats, would my statement be false. No, because I did not say you had ONLY seen 4 cats. It is called Creative Misdirection, now let me ask you a question, which Cosmere book uses the phrase Creative misdirection? Ill give you one hint.

How many interconnected shards do the ghostbloods want you to get tatoo'd with? I mean Diamonds... not shards silly me... why would the Cognitive shadow/hemalurgy world hopper faction want you to get THREE interconnected shards tattoo'd on you when diamonds are so much prettier. What is the origin of Ambition? Adonalsium. What is Adonamsium's origin? Kinda lost in time isn't it....... and Brando's Quotes you seems to automatically discount these parts even though you included then in your quotes: I can't see how you and Yata see this as definitive proof that there isn't more. Brandon states right there in the Quotes "there is more but it will be in future books, I will only tell you this" An implicit denial is not a denial. Especially when your source of the implicit denial also makes the admission in the same essay that there is more going on there than they know of. Never take an in-story character's implicit word as true especially if they turn around and say there is more that they are ignorant of. The phrase origins lost in time pins it to at the most distant Adonalsium, which that can't be it, but it could the the origin of this mystery. So next most distant would be the Shards or Hoid. And the most likely candidate would be fractions of the oldest entity known. As if it were Hoid they would have to put that tag in every system's essay. So Sel is Dishardic, and something more that has its origins lost in time which would be Adonalsium. Two plus more is about how many interconnected diamonds (or Shards) the GhostBloods want their members to get tattoo'd with. And as for Dockson, If I had a teneous shred of shaky proof that he was a duralumen misting or an Atium Misting, and you had no counter proof that he wasn't a misting... what grounds would you have to say he ISN'T a misting. You COULD say "Well, that's a stretch, Mister!" (Pun intended)

I believe you... there are shards named Domination and Devotion on Sel. AND SOMETHING MORE. You seem to remember portions of Kriss's Essay but have ignored this portion of her essay hinting at something more by a scholarly institute that would know better than Kriss. I am not ignoring things, you just are not seeing the things I am. @Spoolofwhool The only reason I brought up the use of the Word Ambition (as I have stated before) was to point out that as a word it is rarely used in the other books, some of the books it is not used at all in any form. It is used in the SA in a few forms but as I have stated before mostly descriptively, but for the sake of full disclosure I gave the examples where it was used as a Noun. Two of which were about the exact same thing Scholarform and one was by the ghostbloods about Shallan. And as stated I think the GhostBloods are a Kelsier Organization.

GhostBloods: World Hoppers, known to have a Southern Scandrian as one of their higher ranked members. translation of Ghost = Cognitive Shadow Translation of blood = Hemoglobin A cognitive Shadow that deals with blood, the only Cognitive Shadow that has had any dealings with blood written about in the cosmere = Kelsier. I bet Thaidakar's Boss has a Sharp sense of Humor and an eye for the cookies.

Yeah thanks for pointing that out. I am used to one reply per post, and double post from time to time. I don't have any problems with people not following my thoughts, or disagreeing with them. If you have problems following, then ask why I think that, I will give my supporting information or if you want I will post the library where I have went through the books either with word searches or the like. I really do recommend doing the Ambition word search. And I don't know If I posted my other looney theory about the Ghost Bloods being Kelsier's Faction before today, but a Cognitive Shadow is a ghost, and hemalurgy deals with blood, and the GhostBloods are world hoppers and there is a Southern Scandrian as a leader in the GhostBloods In fact she is the highest ranked GhostBlood that has been on screen. There is another higher up from Mraise, unknown hierarchical relation to Iyatil, named Thaidakar that is presumed to be a GhostBlood, or a person whom the GhostBloods are doing contract work for on Roshar, but he has yet to get any screen time. Anyway I ramble, Mraise Complements Shallan on her Ambition. It is one of the three uses of the Noun Ambition in WoR. Anyway if all you want to post is "I ain't buyin' it!" I accept that.

#1: Please do the word search, if you can. The use of the word Ambition as a noun does not occur very often in this series, I believe there are only three times. it happens outside Elantris, both are in Words of Radiance and both are pointed at Scholar form Once in the Song of listing at a chapter start and once when Eshonai tells Venli, who was wearing Scholar Form, "I Love you, but your Ambition Frightens me". The Last time was by the Ghost Bloods (or the Cognative Shadow/Hemalurgy worldhopper faction as I like to call them, which only plays into my theory) says Shallan has Ambition. That might be tenius evidence, but as there is zero contradictory evidence, then it is the "Best evidence" we have. My words were chosen carefully. #2: It's on Coppermind, was reported by DawnSard on this form. #3: Your use of the word "guess" as a derogatory on the theory board puzzles me, A guess based on evidence in an inference. I agree that the evidence is tenuous. But it is the only evidence we have. If you have other contradictory evidence please present it. I come here to read other peoples' crack brained theories as much as post my own. Many times I learn something and if someone actually gives a reference I will go check it out. Yata and I don't agree on much but I go check out every reference he gives because he sees the Cosmere much more differently than I do. I don't think he is wrong, I just don't see the same things he does, and our theories differ wildly for reasons of perspective. And as to your later post, I am sorry you felt you had to become hateful because someone else spoke their thoughts. I hope you recover your good graces and social etiquette and use your next post to actually contribute. This forum is supposed to be for open discussion, I hope it remains so. Odium has been on Roshar for tens of thousands of years. however long it took Ambition to die/bleed out (the phrasing seems vague as to whether Ambition died as a direct result of the wounding by Odium, or left Ambition in such a weak state another Shard or Organization managed to finish him off), I don't think it is a recent event, if I am even correct as to Ambition's resting place. Also, as I said above (buried in my walls of text): Jaddeth is freeing himself from a stoney prison, as he seems to describe it. And only recently has he been making outward gains, the most recent was the Quake,either caused by him making gains or was the result of him making gains. Just as in Elantris they didn't realize until 10 years later that the quake caused the Dor to malfunction. Perhaps when Jaddeth widened the crack (ala the WoT's Dark One) he then has more control, or the quake widened the crack (ala the WoT's drilling of the Bore into the Dark One's prison). This is just a fun Gedaneken Experiment. Play along if you want, I don't want anyone getting Gluteous Contusions over anything I say, but as this is a theory board, why not post an actual theory, instead of just slinging WoBs at each other. Bonds are only released on the death of the blade holder, (obviously their body's death, but does not mean their Cognitive Self, nor their Soul). Brandon said he had originally thought about knocking the gem off as being a way to release the bond, but he changed it as the other way just didn't feel right. Szeth kept his oaths till he died, that is why Nin came to him, I believe his words were "That is why I was drawn to you". One of those oaths was to not relinquish the blade. The Stone shamans will retrieve it once he is dead. Can you be dead and your heart still ne alive? That is how we donate organs. The Brain is just an organ, It might be essential for life but life can end without the brain being dead. People that are in permanent comas for years before they die and have no brain activity other than autonomous functions and even some of them don't have any brain activity but they don't live that long as they are deemed DEAD, and they stop the respirators and dialysis and intravenous feeding, but the brain is not dead, just not responding, else it would begin decaying after about 3 days. The saying "The Lights are on but nobody's home." comes to mind. Wax had a similar experience, He was a Cognative Shadow, talking with Sazed. Sazed said he was dead as well, and actually explained the process, It becomes final when they move to the beyond as a CS. As Harmony said he doesn't have the power to pull someone back once they move on (I.E. Vin and Elend declined and moved on). And when asked, Brandon has been vague about whether a shard CAN pull someone back. Another Thought: Ambition is the Desire for More. Dominion is the Desire for Control. The Derethi hierarchy used devotion as a means of control, but recently post Quake and Reod, They are seeking to Control more and they accept Ambition as readily as they do Devotion. Could it just be that the Elantrians aren't in power any more? Sure. But then there is the Careful use of the word Ambition. And if I am wrong about Ambition then we still don't know where Ambition is and have no other leads until more material comes out. That is why I am following the only path available.

Kelsier got a body... kelsier left the planet. other returned have left their planet. Nin Says to Szeth there are honor blades surely you have seen the recently dead brought back to life. Kelsier spiking himself (Using a connection spike) into a body kept it in the Recently dead state. Much like What happened on Elantris when the Elantrians were stuck halfway transformed due to the Reod. All he had to do was find his way either to a returned and have then sacrifice them self to heal him, have an Elantrian heal him, or have an honor blade of regrowth heal him, or have Sazed himself heal him. Lots of ways for a recently dead body with a CS "Connected" to it to be healed. He was enough dead that a CS said the ties to his oath stone were satisfied. And the Bond to the Honor Blade also considered him dead. That is Dead enough. for the Cosmere. Much longer and his Soul would not have lingered any longer and Szeth's soul would have moved to the Beyond, that is when it is loo late to resurrect someone... Kelsier doesn't have that problem... actually he cannot move on, at least not until he has a body and dies once again, maybe. See Dead, both spiritually and physically... Nin does not lie, and has more than enough knowledge to know what he is talking about. These 4 quotes below from Elantris. The Top line equates Devotion with Ambition. As we know Devotion is a shattered shard on that planet and this line Equates Devotion to Ambition, and connects it to Shu-Dereth, Actually Ambition is connected to Shu-Dereth in words more often than Devotion and Shu-Dereth is the religion of Devotion. Ambition hasn't been neutered and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm. And as it was a slow bleed-out it might not even be as fully fragmented as Honor is. You see how long the identity of Honor has persisted on Roshar, tens of thousands of years. That Last line above I quoted from Elantris seems to indicate that Fjordell is the place that is full of Ambitions power. Perhaps Ambition's Shard holder did not die, or is himself a Cognitive Shadow named Jaddeth. And he/she is trying to restore the shard with Spare parts from Devotion. I don't see enough people asking who Jaddeth is. Jaddeth has been alive for along time. Only the most ambitious can be Wyrn and Those in the Derethi Inner circle with bones twisted in a manner never before seen, live much longer. I believe that Jaddeth is actually body hopping Wyrn to Wyrn as they wear out to preserve himself until he can repair the shard. And he can hang around forever since he skipped the moving-on-to-the-beyond for the same reason Kelsier did. Ambition. Jaddeth is training his priests (oddly only those from Fjordell can become a priest) to tap into the Dor, but in a corrupted manner never before seen, and not mentioned in any of the books on the Dor that Raoden was studying. Remember Elantris was full of immortal scholars and only fell a decade or so ago, Raoden was alive when it fell, the twisted bones of the Derethi Priests were not known about by anyone outside the Fjordell priesthood. An Elantrian would have found out, unless the quake that broke the Dor was also what released Jaddeth to this extent, or vice versa. Fjordell was kind of a mess until only recently. Below is the Wyrn's letter oddly written as if he were Jaddeth, not, I believe, because he was scribing it, but because Jaddeth was using him as a vessel for his CS. Note the line that I bolded below. I admit, Jaddeth might not be the original shard holder, but whatever he is he is not biologically human anymore, if Jaddeth was ever human. I have also theorized that he/it might be a dragon, perhaps still in it's egg unhatched as It is mentioned that Jaddeth is encased in stone and seeks to be free of it. None of the other books mention Ambition is such a manner as to equate it as a form of worship or offering.

Kelsier is not longer a Cognitive Shadow, and even as a CS he has held a Shard. Kelsier is aware of the importance of connection, he helped pioneer the Coins/Medallions the Southern Scandrians use. If he spiked his connection to his newly acquired "recently dead" body, he would have no problem relocating himself to another shard world. Nin mentions to Szeth "I suspect you have already seen the newly dead restored to life.” At which point Kelsier would no longer be an unsuitable vessel. Kelsier was tied to Ruin not Preservation, Ruin's power did not care who used it or where it was used, WoB. And If he spiked his connection to his body he would be free to roam. Kelsier's soul has been expanded by holding a shard, so his soul would be more flexible/capable. The best evidence is that Ambition (what is left of the shard) is on Sel. The WoB from Brandon stating that one of the shard corpses was in space was not attributed to Ambition, and there are at least one other splintered shard we are not aware of (Love comes to mind). Plus once Kelsier has Ambition his next target would be the shard threatening his home planet, which he also holds an affinity to "Autonomy". Because if there are two words that would describe Kelsier then would be Ambitious and Autonomous. and if he does manage to overcome Jaddeth to get Ambition, he could get another shard that also matches what he inspires in others... Devotion.