robardin

Did you just call Szeth a wuss? 'Cause that's definitely the vibe I'm getting. Szeth. Szeth son-Neturo... Son-son-Vallano... Who wore white on the day he went to kill a king. And another king. And all their guards. In nation after nation. Who now carries Nightblood, and fell from the sky to cleave a Thunderclast into oblivion. A wuss. Just so's we're clear.

"If I told you your duty was to guard this cell, would you do it?" "I suppose so, aboshi. But I have a quest --" "Then, until further notice: guard this cell. Make sure nobody unauthorized takes that chamber pot away." "Aboshi, the chamber pot... that is definitely something I would want taken away every day, at least once. And what authorization would I require for such an act?" "Yes, that's a very good point. Why did Stormblessed - ah, never mind. Make sure nobody takes you and that sword of yours from this cell except me, how's that?" "Yes, aboshi. This I will do."

I don't think Zahel is "hiding" so much as... Retired. Or trying to stay in retirement. He certainly doesn't seem too bothered by the idea that Azure/Vivenna had chased him to Roshar earlier, and even if she was last seen somewhere in Shadesmar, basically knows exactly where he is now unless he left. "Yeah, let's see her get through Cultivation's Perpendicularity now. And even if she does, so WHAT?" For all we know he's joined the 17th Shard, as in the Frost Faction, except that he appears to admit he has an Intent that he's meant to (and perhaps cannot help but) follow. And he doesn't regret "giving up the sword", which has two meanings: giving up fighting for a living, and of course, THE SWORD that Szeth's got. Even as he calls it a "mistake", it's "the best mistake I ever made". As for him suddenly expounding on Things Cosmere, specifically in the context of Invested Entities and Cognitive Shadows and spren and stapling shadows of souls to a become spren-like "dead man walking", remember, he's OLD and KNOWS A LOT and is, at heart, an academic. So when Kaladin innocently asked him "Are you like Wit?", basically meaning "a mysterious guy who knows a lot of secrets", that kind of triggered him to do a half-lecture, half "I've wanted to say this out loud to SOMEBODY for so long even if they don't know what I'm saying" type of speech. "Me? Like Wit? ME? You don't even know who or what Wit, or Hoid, is, puppy! Or me, for that matter! Let me tell you just how like, and yet very unlike Wit, I am! See, what I am, is..." Think about it. He's learned and figured out all this stuff about the True Nature of Returned, spren, Fused/Heralds, etc., all since the end of the events of Warbreaker, and could well have had that all in his head only this whole time, without even Vivenna to tell it to. If you're geeky in the right way, that is like a pressure cooker. I know I personally am prone to that kind of "more than you asked for" info rant, so I can totally see that kind of reaction from Vasher/Zahel! Come to think of it, the same thing happened when Vivenna innocently asked him about Awakening for the first time. She got a 300 level lecture.

Uh... You said it, not me! (But now I kind of wish I'd said it, LOL)

In-world, if a knowledgeable off-worlder like Zahel is going to do off-world magic stuff (Awakening) and drop terms and information about the wider Cosmere and the nature of Nalthis and the Returned, of course Kaladin would not understand most of it. By definition, neither would a reader who had not read Warbreaker. And that.. Is fine. Yes it means that for those readers who HAVE read Warbreaker, and more fully grok the hints being dropped (as well as the hints as to what is implied as happened after the events of Warbreaker), we get both an "easter egg" type of experience of recognition ("aha! He is a Returned and a high Heightening and has life sense / superhuman speed / he's Awakening the scarves!") as well as an even deeper sense of mystery than simply being about as confused as Kaladin ("...He classifies himself as a Lifeless now, after what he learned? What is that and when did he learn it?") And that... Is also fine. I think it's right to start the cross-Cosmere storylines this way: from the POV of the in-world, originally un-Cosmere-aware characters already set up in the original storylines (Kelsier, Wax, Vivenna, Kaladin, etc.) with a few clearly "knew (more of) the hidden secrets all along" type characters who were also already in the narrative gradually revealing themselves and what they know (Khriss, Hoid, Vasher/Zahel) in a natural way. Simply having him info dump on Kaladin or anybody else out of the blue, that would be unnatural. But Kaladin seeking him out because he's seriously considering becoming a swordmaster ardent fits the natural narrative, and Zahel being one of the ones who he trusts because (like Moash) he doesn't seem overawed by who he is, also fits. (Of course exactly WHY Zahel is like that, is not explained...) Besides, Kaladin (and Adolin) both know Zahel has off-world origins at this point, after talking to Azure in Shadesmar who herself admitted to being from another world, yet having had Zahel as a swordmaster as well ("the one who taught you that kata") and saying she'd come to Roshar in pursuit of him (implying they both had a common origin). Finding out he's an off-world version of a Fused or Herald from his own mouth, well, that maybe should pique him more than it did. Surely if Jasnah or Shallan were present, they'd have picked up on that more. But Kaladin simply focuses on "so, if they're like you, how can we kill them permanently?" Also: he must really trust Zahel if he thinks he'd tell him something like that. "Hey Stormblessed, guess what, I'm not from this world! I'm basically an alien Herald or Fused!" "Whoa! No WAY!" "Way, dude! Totally Yes Way!" "Hey, those guys are immortal! So that means, that means you're immortal!" "Well, there's immortal and then there's immortal. The weaker ones of our type, you can just bleed them out. Others would be much harder." "So which one are you?" *uncomfortable silence should have followed*

Something haunting in the way that Zahel includes himself as well as the Fused in observing: "The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent. We’re spren masquerading as men." Has he figured out what his Intent would be, then? In his time, he's surely seen many Returned who choose to give up their Divine Breath, even as he's also seen Returned just go on and on and on (and been one of those, too), as well as those who just die (possibly of Breath Starvation) or get killed (him being directly involved in a number of cases). Has he puzzled out what motivated those who gave up their Divine Breath? Does he consider that as "fulfilling their Command" such that he must surely wonder what his own would be?

Yeah, for a Sanderson work, Zahel dropping that word kind of stood out. Wayne would probably have said "ash hole", haha. In fact does this forum's swear filter/Cosmere auto-translator pull that word? Ahem. Testing: "Hoid is an cremhole" ... Yep, "cremhole", not that crem has a hole nor comes out of one (it falls from the sky) not collects in one, so, go figure.

Wait, I think you're crossing and re-crossing between IRL and fantasy here. I would say that in-world, Rlain has a very legitimate reason to reject an honorspren being "commanded" to bond with him. He's not ignorant of what a spren bond is at this point. I was shocked that Kaladin felt like he could do so. It was notable that he was only forcing Yunfah to "consider" Rlain "for a week", of course, and maybe they'll still bond when Yunfah shows up as requested to do his weeklong interview, and then Rlain saying "that's not how I'd want to bond a spren" ends up being exactly the factor that causes Yunfah TO bond with him. You can't say that that would not be a fitting narrative! Referring to "modern takes on social issues" is completely unnecessary (and feels to me like you're looking for a straw man to fight).

Well you can see from an Awakener's POV, especially an Awakener who himself is a Returned like the Five Scholars were, why that would be a distinction they'd draw. They are unaware of any kind of Command being placed upon themselves, and are aware that it's (still) beyond human capability to generate a Divine Breath (though they know or sense enough about it to call it Divine and that it is indivisible), while you can create Lifeless not only with only a single Breath (originally requiring 25 until they found the right Command), but also to animate long-dead animals (squirrel!) and inanimate objects, preferably in the form of people (straw men or statues). Very easy to think of long-dead human corpses as equivalent to "inanimate objects". Maybe he discovers the deep Command that underlies all Returned that makes them effectively "Lifeless as created by Endowment". That would be mind-blowing.

This is true - some had tabbed Rlain as possibly becoming a Bondsmith, as forging the bonds between humans and listeners, that could still happen. And I think the observation that once it's seen (by readers, especially) that Radiant spren can bond with listeners, as seen with Venli, even if they've already got a Voidspren!, that it would be unequal if somehow listeners could only be Willshapers. That makes little narrative sense.

Really? Felt extremely on point to me

Nice catch, and I hope you're right. If there is to be a "United People's Front For A Better Roshar" that unites "listeners" with Team Dalinar, with Venli as only the first example, that would be very satisfying. I still wonder if the Stormfather knows of what Timbre has done, and what he would say about it.

Yeah, I'm sure the other combat ardents find ways to avoid doing laundry duty that Zahel takes up, haha. I mean he's hanging up colorful laundry where ardents generally wear gray or brown, right? Whose laundry is it and will they complain? LOL.

Well no. He always knew Returned were "walking dead". Per his original classification and explanation in Warbreaker, "Type I" was defined as: Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host. Deceased = dead. (So are we officially free to talk openly about Warbreaker spoilers in this thread, then? I'll be sensitive to spoilers, just in case.) The key difference between what had been Type I and Type II (Lifeless) was the part about being "sentient" - a Lifeless is not sentient, as the defintion of Type II was Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host. (...or is a Lifeless not mindless? ...maybe this is the part he learns more about, via The Chronicles of Clod?) Of course, "spontaneous" being instead an "Act of Endowment" seems to be something he understands now - referring to her as the "she" in "That’s why she takes our memories. She knows we aren’t the actual people who died, but something else given a corpse to inhabit" - that perhaps he didn't before. There's also the fact that Lifeless are given a Command that drives them and which they cannot break, whereas Returned do not appear to...

That is what I'm hoping might happen. That Yunfah comes to him, as "commanded", and is turned away by Rlain with that explanation, which Yunfah will recognize as... Honor.

I would like to think that at least one new Type was added to his classification scheme, and that Returned and Lifeless, while related, are (still) not considered the same - they were not before, why would they be now? I mean, a human can create a Lifeless with a body that's been dead a very long time and a single Breath, while a Returned needs an act of Endowment and a Divine Breath and to happen at the moment of death/transition to the CR and Beyond for the original host. That's pretty significant. Type I (naturally occurring sentient spren) are first in the scale because they happen all on their own, without any act of Shard or human, which moves everything else "up".

Sounds like it... I also found his comment interesting that "The place I come from, it didn’t have any of these. It’s too new." So Zahel/Vasher knows that his homeworld of Nalthis... Is "new"? Like Scadrial is new? Curious.

If Rlain suspects there is a "wedge" between him and drawing Stormlight as a squire that is due to the Stormfather, why don't they ask Dalinar to talk to ... the Stormfather about if that's the case? Does the Stormfather know about (and Accept) all Oaths sworn by Radiants, or only those of Windrunners? Does he know about Timbre and Venli?

Yeah, this stood out to me. Lifespren. The Rhythm of Life. Not of War. Beautiful.

...and I see that the "surviving" version of this post is still the truncated one. Storms! Will have to re-post with my finished thoughts later

I tried doing that from my phone on Saturday and it didn't work, and then yesterday from my laptop, and now today from my desktop computer; finally raised it to admins, hopefully that will resolve it!

Yeah, I don't know how that happened. The keyboard fell face down so I guess some combo of keypresses were held down in a way I can't explain. And I'm not attributing all those things to Cultivation directly, but rather that her one action - of granting a singer a wish for them to access to Voidlight, even if not phrased as such, but more like "can we ourselves gain the forms of power to fight" - led to much of what has happened in consequence, and that she foresaw that that would eventually lead to a situation (i.e., Dalinar as the Kholin highprince of Alethkar) she could then further tweak to her advantage. Obviously it would not have to do with the splintering of Honor, which in turn led to his being "unsupportive" of that generation of Knights as they wavered in dedication to their oaths due to his being busy "dying" at the time per the Stormfather. But the timing is significant, I feel, being so close together... Independent major events don't usually cluster like that over a 5000+ year time span for them to happen in, right? (Especially in a narrative story?)

Egad, I have no idea how that happened. My wireless keyboard slipped and fell to the ground. I went back and finished writing my original post. Hopefullly a mod will come and clean this up. (How do I page one?)

No Rhythm of War early chapter material applies to any of this observation, so I guess I can put it in the main SA forum... [OK, my original beginning to this post was interrupted by a technical malfunction that also multi-posted it, I finally cleaned up the duplicates, so for anybody reading this thread for the first time please skip down to here in this thread for the actual point I wanted to bring up: and I'm deleting the rest of my original abandoned post that I'm no longer sure exactly how I was getting to where I was going...]

I like the idea of Leshwi surging away from Odium - gravitating, if you will - towards the Windrunners and a Venli-like alignment of Free Singers For A Better Roshar, and I can see that her admiration or respect for Kaladin is a big part of that. But full on shipping the two of them, I dunno. It's the reverse scenario of a Kaladin/Venli pairing but even more extreme. I mean, Leshwi is thousands of years old. And she's spent the vast majority of that time killing and being killed by Radiants. (And by Moash. Storm him, but that was still an impressive act. That he owed to Kaladin, like everything else that didn't end with him dead by a Parshendi arrow on a Sadeas bridge run. Storming traitor... But I digress.) By the way, Chapter 14 also shows that Vyre has been learning to speak the singer language, albeit with a "thick accent". Which language was apparently different from what Venli spoke as a "listener"; she referred to translating things into "the ancient language" for the Fused after taking on Envoyform. What is the ancient language? The so-called Dawnchant, right? And would Venli lose command of it if she were to take on another form?