dgenio8

Thank you all for the clarifications. However, something steel seems weird to me. Now, gathering all your input, I conclude that the accepted theory is that Surgebinding (the manipulation of the surges of nature) is something that can be accessed by different methods:

- Odium : Method unknown. Fused and potentially the original humans

- Honorblades: Splinters of Honor. Heralds

- Nahel bond: Spreen. Knigths Radiant

-Fabrials:Spreen

This makes a lot of sense, BUT it does't fit with the MY head cannon of the Cosmere. I emphasize my because I could be wrong about something.

In what I saw so far from the Cosmere, magic systems appear as an interaction between Shards and the worlds their in. There a theory in this forum (from @Confused I think) that even links that to the original Adonalsium investiture. I always had this idea that Surgebinding is intrinsically related with Honor and Cultivation and was the result of the interaction of this two Shards and Roshar. Now, we have WoB that state that a Shard can be incorporated in an pre-existing magic system (if a new Shard did something it would have a god metal in Scandrial), and this could explain the existance of the Fused (Odium incorporate in the system Honor and Cultivation generated). However, this states that, if Humans come from a place with only Odium as their god, their would not have access to it

Great theory and as Brandon put it himself in one of the WoB above, this seems to be implied in the books. However...

I can't read it like that. Every time I read an Hoid/Wit section in any Cosmere book I get this distinct feeling that becoming the vessel of Adonalsium is not is goal. Is he trying to reforge it? Rebuild a major shard after realizing the mess that powerful beings drivien by pure intents are doing to the Cosmere? Yes, that feels correct to me. But I think Hoid doesn't want to hold the power, doesn't want the responsibility and ultimately, I not even sure someone will need to.

We know that large collections of Investiture can gain sapience. My best guess is that, after collecting investiture Connected with all the shards Hoid will reforged Adonalsium in a new being...

I just finished OB and I'm not sure this is a mistake from Brandon (less likely) or another case of unreliable narrator.

Now, we were told that humans fled from their homeland wielding power of surges.

However, previously we have been told that nahel bonds only started to happen after the oathpact was formed, and spren copied what they saw in honorblades.

Of course, this two timelines are incompatible on the light of oathpact being done after humans arrived on roshar.

I see a couple of hypothesis.

- humans wield odium surges. However, I think we have no evidence for the existence of this

- humans have other magic system in their origin

Ideas? Did I got something wrong?

17 minutes ago, Overlord Jebus said:

What an odd epigraph...

I think this must be a mistake... Because the first sentence after the preface is "Dalinar remembered."

I haven't read most of the comments, but I want to add my theory on Mr T's radiant. What if he has just an honorblade? It would allow the person to perform Surgebinding...

Not sure if right forum or if this had been better discussed elsewhere. I'm rereading Tor's reread of the WoK and WoR before Oathbringer, and on chapter 11 of WoK the epigraph says 

Quote

“Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.”

The first part is a now obvious reference to the 16 shards of Adonalsium, and the 3 are Honor, Cultivation and Odium. My point is on the Broken One. While a common interpretation is that the Odium is reigning in Roshar, I think this means that Honor (the splintered shard) is the one running things there.

Although this does not improve our knowledge in any way, I just wanted to know what you guys thinks.

I will keep my bet in Adolin. I think he did it, influenced by Odium (or one of it's agent's). Not consciously, but he as some remembering of it...

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Just because a character believes something to be true it doesn't mean it actually is true.

Until we know for certain that they properly tested the Honorblade, I don't think we can know for sure. (They might not even know what it really is...)

On a somewhat related note, given Shallan's critical importance as the only known way to get in and out of Urithiru while Kaladin is away... I'm surprised there weren't more guards with her. Where's her personal guards?

Why can't Renarin do it?

Before I read all this post I want to comment with some ideas:

- what if Adolin is actually the second murderer? The way he reacted can be read as a nigtmare that becomes true

- on the same line of thought, what if Renarim saw Adolin with nine shadows and only now understood what that means?

More latter

11 hours ago, Jaconis said:

Do we know if this is before, after, or during the events of Edgedancer? I assume they are sort of happening concurrently based on the above statement. The main thing I'm confused about though is how in the world did the monarch of Azir see "that a strange storm had appeared in the east"? (I'm assuming that this isn't referring to the storm they see at the end Edgedancer, because that was coming from the west). Looking at the map, Azir is literally on the other side of the planet from the Shattered Plains. Are we to believe that the Everstorm was visible from that far away? If so, why in the world wasn't everyone freaking the bleep out that this new, massive (red!) storm was being created?

Something seems off to me, though I could be missing something. Anyone else see see what it is?

I'm having the same issue here. There is also a quote about the Everstorm hitting Shinovar and then circle the globe... Isn't this the other way around? And how can they see a strange storm appeared in the east, been hit by it and not believe Dalinar?!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but normal storms go from East to West, while the Everstorm goes from West to East. Given the map it should had move to the ocean shortly after the end of WoR and if it doesn't dissipate it sould hit Shinovar and then the rest of the continent....

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Is it possible that Ishar wrote it? He created the Knights Radiant after all, and is the patron of the Order of Bondsmiths. This is the Bondsmith book, and Dalinar is a bondsmith, and also the main flashback character. His sword was named after the book. Seems to fit together. My new theory: Ishar wrote Oathbringer, and it is about how the Oaths and the Knights Radiant works.

Besides, this is the first book where the Knights Radiant are in the open and training since the beginning. And there is a general consensus that they (and we) should learn what can they do!

About Oathbringer, the in-world book. I think it might be related with the establishement of the Knights Radiant and the orders. Maybe this is the book that describes the ideals and power of the Knights, and the rules they should follow. With it the people with Nahel bound started to have to say and uphold some specific Oaths to advance the bound.

I think there is a problem with the intentional splinter theory, but please correct me if I'm wrong! I haven't read the books for a long time...

Ym is on the path to be a Surgebinder.  We know that Investiture interfere with Investiture. If Ym is made of Investiture, or highly invested, I think it would be impossible for him to get a Nahel bond.

12 hours ago, maxal said:

What we do know if there will people who will approve and there will be those who won't, worst they will be completely against it. Whom is whom? Common guess is Dalinar would be one of the later, but then again Adolin is his son. I am never entirely sure how much he means to his father, Dalinar is so hard with him most of the time, it is very difficult to figure out how far Dalinar would be willing to go to both punish and protect his eldest. If it were Elhokar or Renarin, my thoughts would be different: I would say Dalinar would do everything he can to shelter them from any consequences, but it is Adolin.... Does Dalinar love Adolin enough to forgive him? I am unsure... I am honestly not sure Dalinar loves Adolin as much as he loves Renarin and Elhokar, I am honestly not sure if he does not prefer Kaladin over his own son. I do however think Dalinar would sacrifice Adolin to secure a definite and strong victory. I will sacrifice his own son to unite Alethkar, of this I am nearly convinced and worst, Adolin would accept this sacrifice, he would agree this is required. Poor kid, nobody values his life, including himself 

I would like to counter this point of yours. I do agree that, instead of practical consequences of the murder (imprison, death...), the worse that Adolin will suffer will come from the people he cares and himself. Yes, there will be consequences (trials, revenge from Yalai, etc), but my guess is that Brandon will focus on the conflicts this creates between characters and Adolin. More importantly, how does he feel about it.

But I digress. I wanted to disagree with your idea that Dalinar did not love Adolin. I think that is the oposite of what we here shown. In my prespective, not only Dalinar loves Adolin but he also respect him! He raised Adolin to be a great soldier, a fantastic comander and a worthy sucessor Highprince. Their talk when Dalinar decide to resign shows it. Yes, he does proteck Elhokar and Renarin more, but that does not equate to more love. I actually think that, if given the chance, Dalinar would sacrifice himself to save Adolin. And yes, I remember the duel scene, but I think that was different. In that situation, both would be killed...

Although I do not agree with your separation of Powers and Investiture, or do not correctly understand it, I'm starting to think you might have uncover something crucial here. I'm inclined now to agree that the magic systems we see today, at least the ones that can be directly linked to a Shard, were influenced by the original magic system designed by Adonalsium.

The reason for my change of heart is the fact that we have indication that the Shards did not design magic systems (I'm horrible at adding WoBs, but I'm sure there is one for this). This magic systems are the result of the interaction between the Shard and the world. Given that we also know that Adonalsium left different magic systems lying around in the Cosmere, it stand to logic that the difference between the planets was the planet Spirit Web, designed by Adonalsium, that then formed the original magic (Investiture Magic in your nomenclature).

I would like to link this with my post from yesterday. I wonder why all the Shards stayed in this dwarf galaxy. Maybe when Adonalsium created this planets he imbued them with a Spirit Web, and thus an Investiture Magic system that would attract specific Shards. My idea is that, as a very powerful being, he predicted he's own splintering and planed for it (as stated in the letter). What better way to minimize the potential problems of having Shards in the hands of mortals than to keep then in specific places? Maybe even predicting specific pairings?

1 minute ago, Erai Sedai said:

Did the original Elantrians count as humans technically?

Yes?! I know we have not seen them, but given that nothing else gets transformed into Elantrian, my guess is that original Elantrians were also Human.

Once again, more of a question than a theory. I wanted to know the origin of Humans in the Cosmere.

What I know:

- Humans existed in Yolan. This is the planet from where the original Shardholders come from.

- Ruin and Preservation created the Humans in Scandrial.

Now, we see humans in several different planets from different solar systems and they are all similar. This tell me that they should have a similar origin. My hypothesis to explain the existence of a similar species in different planes are (and they are not mutually exclusive):

• The Shards create them all using Yolan humans are a guide. We know they can (by Scandrial).
• Humans travelled to the different planets from Yolan. They could have done it alone or aided by their Shards
• Humans evolved independently in each planet. VERY unlikely.
• .Adonalsium created humans in different planets... for reasons...

As a side note, why almost just Humans. Forget Scandrial, that one was designed by Shards. In Roshar there are other sentient/intelligent creatures (the listeners and whatever the thing in Edgedancer was). But Sel, Taldain, Nalthis,Threnody and First of the Sun only seem to have Human as intelegent specie. Why? This planets supported life for a very long time. In some cases before the Shards arrive (by the way, do we know if/which of this planets had life before their Shard arrive?). There was time for many cool species to appear and adapt, but very little sentience speceis... Was this something that Adonalsium hard-wired in the Cosmere? Or am I missing something?

This is more a question than a theory and I think that probably we have not data to discuss this, but were it goes...

Brandon stated that the Cosmere happens in a dwarf galaxy... I wonder if what we know of Realmatics and Investiture is true for the remaining of the universe. Like, is there a cognitive Realm of other galaxies? Is there any Investiture outside this galaxy?

This lead me to the next topic... Why are all Shards in this galaxy? I understand that galaxies are very, very far way... except that in the Cognitive Realm the space between galaxies should be almost non-existing. Given that, why do all the Shards of Adonalsium stay in the same galaxy... Specially knowing that Odium would go after then. If it was for defence, they should have stayed more together!! So, they stay in this galaxy. Maybe Adonalsium, and per inheritance it's shards, are bound to this galaxy. This lead me to think that Adonalsium is not this Universe god... Maybe there is no Universal God in this universe... But if Adonalsium is not the God of the universe, it makes sense that there would be other "Adonalsium"s in other galaxies... And we might see that eventually!!

Now, as a small point, can anyone point me to any information on what was Adonalsium? My question is, was Adonalsium power with a vessel? Was there a "mortal" driven this immense power? If yes, how many vessels did Adonalsium had? If not, then was we pure sentience Investiture?

I do not mind to hijack the post, by I felt this could really fit in this discussion. My theory is that this discussion, whether or not someone is doing well as a God, is one of the key arguments in the Cosmere designed by Brandon. As an author, he is very good at given the reader a controversial situation in which there is no obvious correct answer an make un powder in what would we do and what is correct...

Now, some Cosmere musing , spoilers for Cosmere related events (specially Way of Kings)

To add my 2 cents

I think that splintering a Shard is removing it's spiritual part from the Spiritual Realm.

My theory is that is the spiritual component of a Shard that allow it to be linked to all it's pieces, even when they are separated in the other realms (Breath from Endowment, Mists from Preservations...). In the same context, if there is no space or time in the Spiritual Realm, then the concept of splintering makes no sense... Then, I propose that what Odium did was just move the spiritual component of the shards to the Cognitive Realm, where they can be splintered.

I should start by saying that I read your previous post, but I do not agree with the division between Powers and Investiture. I will try to join that discussion there, but for lack of time I will only point out that there is no need so far to postulate that, but if you can direct me to the relevant WoB or piece of text from the books or from you I will be happy.

Regarding this theory,

16 hours ago, Confused said:

Shards later Invested to change Major Shardworlds, but they were constrained by Adonalsium’s pre-existing Investiture Magic.

Is this WoB the only evidence you have for this? I can not see in that WoB any confirmation of that. He said that there are differences, but I never saw an WoB where he states that whatever Adonalsium did before constrain the shards interaction with the world.

16 hours ago, Confused said:

We know more about Roshar’s pre-Shattering Investiture Magic than any other Shardworld. Khriss describes Rosharan magic as “an expansion” of pre-Shattering magic (AU, Kindle, p. 535):

[T]he bonding of spren to humans is merely an expansion of what already exists in the nature of the planet. Gargantuan crustaceans grow to incredible size without collapsing under their own weight…through symbiosis with spren. Certain animals obtain flight through similar means, and there is even a race of equines that – through the spren bond – have adapted to life on the planet and obtained a high enough level of self-awareness to nearly be named a sapient species.

Where is another example of, I think, over interpretation.  Khriss do not say that Rosharan magic is "an expansion" of pre-Shattering magic... It only says that the bonds to humans are similar to the ones that exist before... Maybe this bonds only start to exist the shattering. Do we know if Roshar was inhabited before the shattering? Do we know if any life exist outside Yolen before the shattering? What about humans? Did they exist elsewhere before?

1 minute ago, Captains Domon said:

No. Ambition was Splintered shortly after the Shattering. Rayse realized the danger.

Isn't this WoB saying the oposite? He went after Ambition, but could only find it after splintering Devotion and Dominion.

4 hours ago, Confused said:

Argent: So, did Rayse choose those Shards [to splinter] because -

Brandon Sanderson: He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent: Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person?

Brandon Sanderson: In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

1 hour ago, Extesian said:

I like it. I mean I'd need more to be convinced but I do like it.

But for me this was always the reason he stuffed them into the cognitive realm

He did so because he was already weak from splintering Ambition and that was easier than properly splintering two more Shards. No proof, but that's my suspicion.

Doesn't mean there's not more to it but says hecwasn't necessarily being cruel, just tired and lazy.

I tought Odium splitered Ambition AFTER spliter Dominion and Devotion.

2 hours ago, Extesian said:

Additionally,

 

But aimians could also be from Yolen. Do we know what where the sentience species in Yolen?

3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

But if so, having all the Heralds there actually made things worse. So why wouldn't they have taken turns all along (I know they didn't have a choice if they died, but if they didn't...) That way they'd improve things for Roshar and endure less total suffering - it seems the obvious way to do it.

Exactly... There's something weird in this... I'm getting more inclined to the hypothesis that it was Odium that decided to delay the next Desolation. Thinking about it, it makes even more sense if he shattered Honor after the Oathpact. The idea is that, because of the Oathpact, Honor got weaker and Odium shattered it. However, he was still imprison and had to endure this fight in the Desolations. So, beacause there would be no Honor to help guide mankind and give them what they need, Odium delayed the next Desolation to caught mankind off guard...

Maybe the point is that people will now bind Voidspreen (Odiumspreen?). With Honor alive, he would prevent this, or at least prevent the usage of the Transportation surge from people controlled by Odium. Now, without any guidance and memory of Odium, an KR with the Transportation surge could allow Odium to affect directly other Shardworlds.