Subvisual Haze

Redeemed by the power of love and friendship by Navani, Dalinar's ghost and Lift (who makes an inappropriate comment).  Elhokar's ghost saying something inspirational is 50/50.  

I doubt it will happen, but I think a delightful reveal would be that Kaladin isn't really doing therapy but just revealing a sign about his true nature. 

"The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known"

7 hours ago, Asininity said:

Then we get Adolin Stormblessed. While I enjoyed the Siege, it's not lost on me how repetitive it is. Its the same blend of prowess, bravery and leadership, all wrapped in depression and a bit of recklessness we've seen in Kaladin. That said, these qualities were part of what made some of the best sequences in the series, so I’m not really complaining here.

Oh that's a very insightful point.  Ever since tWoK I've been annoyed that Kaladin was never permitted by the plot to return to the role that made me fall in love with him: the suffering heroic leader who inspires everyone around him in hopeless circumstances.  We didn't get Kaladin the leader back, but we did get Adolin at least to play the part.

"You, the reader, go to therapy"

So many frequently talk like Marvel characters or highly updooted Reddit posters.  Very quippy and unserious.  It's less the specific words (which could be attributed to "translation") than the lack of seriousness/distinct voice/worldview of the people expressing themselves.  Theoretically fantasy is supposed to be a pre-modern environment and thus inhabited by people with a worldview/voice distinct from an internet poster circa 2015-2024.  If it was just one person doing this (Wit would be ideal), then it wouldn't be quite so noticeable because they could serve as a contrast.  Instead we have Kaladin talking about being a therapist, Adolin being a slut, Shallan squeeing like a fujoshi etc.

It's weird because earlier Sanderson books didn't have this quality.  I have to wonder if its not an intentional change to cater to broader/more YA audience.

I liked that it wasn't yet another side plot of armies punching each other.

It felt a little clunky in execution because it felt like an imperfect blend of a couple different ideas/functions.

1) A question on whether it is smart for a small power to seek peace with a larger power rather than get wrecked trying to oppose them.

2) An ethics 101 debate on utilitarianism.

3) Jasnah gets taken down a peg.

The final product felt a little clunky to me as a result.

Odium's argument centered around him being trustworthy to keep his word but all the B-plots in this book (including the debate itself) occur because of a silly loophole in a contract that Odium exploits ignoring intent.

I was kind of surprised by the absolute lack of care Honor put into vetting the Heralds in the first place.  He basically just choose 10 people who were available and willing!  It's not surprising if one or two bad apples snuck in who just enjoyed the prospect of being immortal (what if Battar was just an equivalent of Gavilar?).  Clearing up the trauma via Kaladin-brand therapy in such a case wouldn't necessary result in a good person.  At best therapy process the trauma and help self-actualize, but that doesn't necessarily result in a "good person". 

The Sopranos rather cleverly covered this limitation of therapy as a mechanism for betterment.  Take a mob boss suffering from panic attacks, apply therapy, yield a more efficient mob boss?  I guess maybe if you apply Clockwork Orange therapeutic techniques you could change a "bad person" into a "good person", but you shatter free will in the process.

You can't save everyone, and Battar will be that one who is unwilling to be redeemed by Kaladin.  Both because of the greed primary motivation and that's she's just too morally far gone to be redeemed.  The others can claim various levels of magical incompetence so as to not be fully accountable for their actions.  Battar's hospitals are beyond forgiveness, and anyways I doubt she'll show any actual remorse for what she did.  She also can't hide behind the "I made moral compromises for the greater good" defense because she flipped to Team Odium the minute it was convenient.

Basically I think she'll be alternative expression of Kaladin's 4th oath - can't save them all.

You go in expecting the standard demonic contract, blood of a virgin and what-not but that's when she hits you with the variable rate interest loan.

This was after Dalinar heard Nohadon's voice.  Nohadon

Adonalsium, the one they collectively killed.

6 minutes ago, Moirne said:

I wonder if he was just going to select some other rando who would appear innocent, and bribe him into the contest. Like a starving farmer who just wants Odium’s protection so he can feed his family. But then Gav showed up in the SR and he couldn’t help himself.

Raises an interesting point.  Would Dalinar have been willing to kill any child, or woman, or elderly, or infirm, or person who just doesn't know how to fight.  Odium was shooting water in a barrel trying to pick someone who Dalinar wouldn't be willing to kill.

On a meta level it feels like:

1) tell the reader there is a secret plan (so they don't get too bummed out about the bad guys winning)

2) keep the plan vague (so the readers can endlessly speculate)

Seems to be implying that she is the successor of the Stormfather as the largest remaining remnant of Honor.

Basically Syl is now similar to the Mist in Mistborn.  She'll (something something) Kaladin (something) Connection to reclaim the Honor shard.

Looking forward to finding out definitively maybe 15 years in the future.

So when TOdium saw a way to win at the end of RoW, was his plan all along for Cultivation to convince Dalinar into exploring the spirit realm, and then for the Ghostbloods to blow up the perpendicularity while Gavinor just so happens to be in the area?  So that he can isolate Gavinor in an age pocket and convince him to be his champion?  And this within the limited 10 day timeframe?  Because that's an impressive plan.  Clearly a very smart man to plan out all these specific events outside his control.

We're told that Cultivation is very smart and sneaky.  Thus every time Cultivation falls directly on her face and fails it is just further proof that she is playing 4D chess and this was all part of her plan.  Losing is winning, trust the plan.

Cultivation fleeing the system as fast as her legs/wings will carry her: "Just according to growth keikaku"

Strange book.  The ending was certainly bold and risky, but I'm not sure I'd call it enjoyable.  It certainly changes a lot moving forward but does it feel like a satisfying resolution to many open threads?  Remarkably it still gives off that "tune in next week!" vibe, despite a large in-world and realworld timegap now occurring.  Interestingly for a Sanderson book the middle part was the portion of the book I enjoyed the most.  Most of the side plots were proven to be ultimately pointless due to the contest, but they were well written.  Everyone had something to keep themselves busy, so I suppose that's something.

The contest of champions played out poorly relative to the years of hype that went into it.  The entire plot revolving around the gang going to the Spirit Realm so Gav can get corrupted only happens specifically because Cultivation tells Dalinar to go there, which makes her look like an utter moron in hindsight.  It's not like Dalinar really learned much of anything that Cultivation couldn't have just told him in a couple sentences (Honor+Odium directly fighting would destroy world but Honor wants to fight Odium. Tanavast betrayed BAM and that's why he lost Honor.)  The Gavinor plot sucked and everyone saw it coming, but so it goes.

I enjoyed the Szeth and Kaladin plot quite a bit.  Sometimes the therapist stuff was heavy headed, but all of the characters involved were very well written and enjoyable to read through.  Lots of bros talking about their feelings frequently around campfires, which was pretty delightful.  I particularly enjoyed how Nale argues like an badfaith internet pedant regularly contradicting himself and constantly shifting goalposts.

Overall I'd give a 4/5.  Definitely a step up from RoW, but not quite peak Sanderson due to a messy ending.

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Isolated as the others were, he could watch and prepare exactingly how to defeat each one. Only one of them held two Shards of power, but that one was unable to function properly. Odium’s predecessor had never taken a second Shard of power for that reason.

Yes, such a theoretical situation would indeed be an effective way to dilute the destructive energies of the Odium shard

4 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Speaking of Death Rattles, the one that says, so the Night will reign... What if the true big bad is not Odium, but one of the old gods. Not the Wind, nor the Stones, but the Night. Perhaps, both Odium and Honor kill each other only for this ancient god to convert some of their power for itself. 

Isn't that just the Nightwatcher?  Seems to fit with Cultivation seeking a third way.

Ishar not seeing Kaladin in his plans is interesting.  That implies someone else who can glimpse the future has been "shielding" him.  The Wind seems the most likely option, but there's always room for one more Cultivation secret plan too I suppose.

Regarding Ishar I now suspect he was intending to ascend to Honor in the past, but Tanavast forsaw how disasterous that would be and intentionally gave up the power + stuffed it away in the spirit realm to prevent Ishar's ascension.

The way Ishar talks about taking the pains of the other Heralds reminds me of the Odium/Moash dynamic.  Possibly under influence from the same Unmade (Dai Gonarthis)? 

I do like the implication that Ishar was behind Szeth's whole arc.  Poor guy, always another level of being used as someone's weapon that he didn't even realize.

Quote

As the end arrives, I wonder if we should have done more.

but you didn't do anything!

On 11/19/2024 at 7:14 AM, Child of Hodor said:

I don't think he's Tanavast though. Nohadon was around and seemed to play a role in the founding of the Knight's Radiant and Tanavast said he had nothing to do with it and was surprised by their creation. 

Now we could say he's lying or from a "certain point of view"-ing it, but I just don't think so. I think Nohadan was just a guy doing his best who wrote a book. A king, but not a god. If abdication comes into play in this book it will probably be one of the current vessels who does it. 

I think this is more referring to the spren granting unexpected powers to mortals being beyond Tanavast's direct action.  I think the important clue here is that Nohadon refers to "Surgebinders" existing in his time.

Basically the spren created surgebinders.  Nohadon (who may have been Tanavast slumming as a mortal) gave moral structure to the orders (probably this is when the oaths entered the process).  Unorganized surgebinders vs. Knights Radiant orders.

And also maybe Ishar played a part in this process?

I was very excited to almost see a flashback and perhaps a clarification of lore questions that have been teased for quite a while.  Maybe next time!